TheDinoman
Member
Still a crying shame both the original Goldeneye and Diddy Kong Racing are gone forever thanks to the Microsoft buyout. All we have now are inferior ports/remakes.
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One thing that Goldeneye still does better than most other games
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
DryvBy
Member
I really wish this was a thing again. We went from that to Soldier of Fortune to just straight up rag dolls.
When someone talks about GoldenEye and Perfect Dark is like talking about the same game, so in this case PD doesn't count.
Perfect Dark is going overboard with the perfection that was GoldenEye.
daTRUballin
Member
I've always wondered about this. Especially if they also released Conker's Bad Fur Day as a GameCube launch title alongside it. Both of these games would've greatly benefited from being GC launch titles instead of being late N64 games for various reasons.
Also, Rare's games having a bigger presence on the GC than what actually happened in reality could've also incentivized Nintendo to hold on to Rare instead of letting them go to Microsoft.
Maybe I'll make a thread about this at some point. It's a really interesting hypothetical scenario to think about.
nkarafo
Member
A small bump for anyone who has a problem with the controls:
90% of the time i assume this is because you didn't try the other controller options Goldeneye/PD have. In the options menu just select "1.2 solitaire" and hold the controller on it's left side, like the left part of the picture:
This way you use your left thumb for moving/strafe (d-pad), your right thumb for aiming/turning (analog stick), your left index for the sights (L) and your right index for shooting (there's a nice Z trigger there). This is the same scheme as modern shooters with the only difference being your movement is not analog. So there is no way you won't be able to play it well enough if you can play a modern shooter.
There's also an option like this:
In the image it shows 2.1 but 2.2 has fire/sight the other way, as it should.
Basically, you hold one controller on each hand by it's middle foot. It's a bit awkward but it works because the weight of the controller is balanced if you hold it this way. Imagine something like a bulkier, 90's version of Wiimote+nunchuck. This way you get true dual analog. This was known by very few Goldeneye players and even today most people don't know this. I played it like this back in the day and it was awesome.
In other words, there is no reason to complain about the controls knowing all this.
90% of the time i assume this is because you didn't try the other controller options Goldeneye/PD have. In the options menu just select "1.2 solitaire" and hold the controller on it's left side, like the left part of the picture:
This way you use your left thumb for moving/strafe (d-pad), your right thumb for aiming/turning (analog stick), your left index for the sights (L) and your right index for shooting (there's a nice Z trigger there). This is the same scheme as modern shooters with the only difference being your movement is not analog. So there is no way you won't be able to play it well enough if you can play a modern shooter.
There's also an option like this:
In the image it shows 2.1 but 2.2 has fire/sight the other way, as it should.
Basically, you hold one controller on each hand by it's middle foot. It's a bit awkward but it works because the weight of the controller is balanced if you hold it this way. Imagine something like a bulkier, 90's version of Wiimote+nunchuck. This way you get true dual analog. This was known by very few Goldeneye players and even today most people don't know this. I played it like this back in the day and it was awesome.
In other words, there is no reason to complain about the controls knowing all this.
daTRUballin
Member
Agreed. Maybe controls have improved significantly in shooters since Goldeneye, but I can still play the game with the default controls just fine. I feel like the reason why people rag on the game's controls today is because they simply don't want to or don't have the time to get used to the controls, so most just play the game for five minutes and call it "unplayable". Not exactly a fair way to judge the game today.
D.Lo
Member
I think 1.1 was easy to pick up for casuals too. You didn't really need the c-button dpad op start with, aka it played like a 3rd person game just in first person. After a while you could add in c-button dpad stuff, the only weakness there was non-analogue look up/down.
But there were the other more advanced options there for pros. The lack of analogue movement on a dpad is no loss - see wasd usuage to this day.
Coreda
Member
A small bump for anyone who has a problem with the controls:
90% of the time i assume this is because you didn't try the other controller options Goldeneye/PD have. In the options menu just select "1.2 solitaire" and hold the controller on it's left side, like the left part of the picture:
Wait what. I could have sworn 1.2 (in PD at least) was the position held like the right side of that image, with the C buttons used for direction and the analog stick for aim. It was perfect. Essentially the C pad acted like WASD would on a keyboard (in that the movement are keys rather than we now have with dual analog controllers).
That's half the story.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The D-pad and C-buttons do the same thing.
Another thing Goldeneye does masterfully is hit reactions on the enemies.
They react differently no matter where you shoot them and have a huge amount of different animations and ways to die depending on where hit.
It really adds to the feel of the combat when enemies reacts so well.
It's a shame no other game has really managed to replicate this to Goldeneyes level.
This. Too bad everyone jumped on havoc and ragdoll when it arrived. Enemies still drop weird as fuck even in modern shooters.
daTRUballin
Member
Even in Perfect Dark Zero, the enemies had ragdoll physics. Even Rare somehow fucked up the enemy AI and animations in PDZ and left the detailed GE/PD enemy system behind. That whole game was just WTF lol. A black mark on Rare's FPS legacy.
tkscz
Member
After the original PD, the team who made it and GE left Rare and became Free Radical Design (TimeSplitters). But so did most of Rare as the Microsoft buyout was happening now that the Stampford bros had left.
As for controls, I hate hearing they aged badly. Controls don't age badly, they were either always bad or worked well for the control and game they were built around. The Rareware FPS on the N64 were made perfectly for the N64's controller with a lot of control choices. Most people are just use to duel stick and don't try to get use to the N64 controls. They aren't bad and take only a few seconds to get used to if you get your mind set off of duel stick controls.
DieNgamers
Member
It improved on nearly every aspect of GE and is much much better, in my opinion.
TheDinoman
Member
The Stamper Bros. left in 2006, which was quite a little while after the buyout.
tkscz
Member
Why do I keep thinking their name is Stampford? But I didn't know they left that late. Could've sworn they left during the N64 days. Still, Free Radical (Dambuster studios now) left and had nothing to do with Perfect Dark Zero.
nkarafo
Member
You can use either the D-pad or the c-buttons. The only reason i recommended using the d-pad is because it's closer to modern shooters (WASD on the left and Aiming on the right).
That's why i made the post, to show that there is another scheme that is basically the same as in modern shooters so they won't have to get used to a different scheme.
Exactly. Everything in the games is built around the controls, from the way enemies switch between animation routines to how proper aiming is attached to a button. The controls work very well for the gameplay attached to them, as long as one gives them a chance.
Still my favorite single player games in the genre.
It's out on 360/XO in a 60fps version for very little money. The original takes quite a while to adjust to due to the low frame rate, so you'd probably be better off with the new version.
nkarafo
Member
Perfect Dark only, Goldeneye still only exists on the N64.
IMO, the best way to play Goldeneye today is emulation. Get the latest versions of PJ64+GlideN64+Azimer plugins (so there are no bugs, or the least amount), use counter factor "1" in the emulator options to improve frame rates (still not perfect but good enough), use 16:9 from the in-game video options (not letterbox widescreen), set controls to be the same as modern shooters (movement with left stick, aiming with right stick) and you are set. It's how i play the game today and it plays great (although i use RetroArch to get a CRT shader, i don't care that much for high-resolution).
There is also a hacked version of 1964 that allows 60fps, although i don't recommend it because the last time i tried it there was no audio plugin that could play along with no crackling or sound glitching.
Most games use ray tracing for bullet collision detection (aka hitscan) the collision detection itself is super precise. What isn't precise is the collision mesh of the environment. n goldeneye the environment is super low poly so its likely that the the visuals near perfectly match up to the collision mesh. yet in modern games that cannot be the case, you dont want to raycast against a multi-million polygon terrain model its way too slow! so we have a separate simplified collision mesh that sits ontop of the environment that raycasts test against. unfortunately that leads to collision detection appearing to be not as accurate as it used to be.
Its a trade off for performance its largely how games are made It's probably not going to get much better any time soon unless we have some sort of breakthrough in processing speed.
SO in short goldeneye doesn't have better collision detection. the visuals just better match the collision mesh.
Its a trade off for performance its largely how games are made It's probably not going to get much better any time soon unless we have some sort of breakthrough in processing speed.
SO in short goldeneye doesn't have better collision detection. the visuals just better match the collision mesh.
Another thing Goldeneye does masterfully is hit reactions on the enemies.
They react differently no matter where you shoot them
Thats...the opposite of impressive
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
sadly, the gameplay is not one of the things...
no reason? can you do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhzXKMqZBBc
... on any controller option on GE? sorry, but comparing to something like this example, GE controls/gameplay are laughable...
A small bump for anyone who has a problem with the controls:
90% of the time i assume this is because you didn't try the other controller options Goldeneye/PD have. In the options menu just select "1.2 solitaire" and hold the controller on it's left side, like the left part of the picture:
This way you use your left thumb for moving/strafe (d-pad), your right thumb for aiming/turning (analog stick), your left index for the sights (L) and your right index for shooting (there's a nice Z trigger there). This is the same scheme as modern shooters with the only difference being your movement is not analog. So there is no way you won't be able to play it well enough if you can play a modern shooter.
There's also an option like this:
In the image it shows 2.1 but 2.2 has fire/sight the other way, as it should.
Basically, you hold one controller on each hand by it's middle foot. It's a bit awkward but it works because the weight of the controller is balanced if you hold it this way. Imagine something like a bulkier, 90's version of Wiimote+nunchuck. This way you get true dual analog. This was known by very few Goldeneye players and even today most people don't know this. I played it like this back in the day and it was awesome.
In other words, there is no reason to complain about the controls knowing all this.
no reason? can you do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhzXKMqZBBc
... on any controller option on GE? sorry, but comparing to something like this example, GE controls/gameplay are laughable...
nkarafo
Member
You can't do the same stuff in the video you posted in 100% of console FPS games in general, old or modern, not just Goldeneye. Your post here is pointless. You are comparing KB+Mouse controls of a PC game with gamepad controls of a console game. Well of course KB+Mouse is better, thanks for the information.
My post is about making Goldeneye play like a modern shooter on consoles. It's a console game.
D.Lo
Member
lol. That's a tool assisted collaborative speed run of a much faster playing game... and it uses a mouse when Goldeneye was only being compare to dual analogue.
Baleoce
Member
It would take no adjusting for me. That's what I played when I was a kid pretty much every day. I don't have a 360/XO either. But it's great that there's a version there for people to play on modern consoles.
Coreda
Member
Interesting. The A/B buttons would be harder to press I'd imagine. Guess I have trouble seeing how it would be better then the other position apart from strict PC KB/M location familiarity.
It's a shame we didn't get the Goldeneye XBLA remake. Really saddens me sometimes how the the industry's history is tied to hardware and just disappears after a while.
Same here. I still find GE/PD fully playable and better than modern FPS, but I mentioned it because I know most find the frame rate too low.
D.Lo
Member
That's true, it's purely familiarity.
The game sold millions, there are plenty of copies available, it's not lost. A non-existent remake not being done isn't history lost.
Anyway it looks like N64 mini next year, so here's hoping they get the licensing sorted and get it on that. And that the games have an option for at leat 640p and solid 30fps (like VC versions of N64 games).
Oh I know. Just had a bad train of thoughts happening, due to GE not being available on a modern system.
nkarafo
Member
You can reach A/B fine IMO. It's also better this way because you can change weapons while moving. Otherwise you needed to change weapons while staying still for a moment.
The thing though is that it was actually done, just not released
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
so, you are "excluding" the existence of other controls/gameplay to say that controls/gameplay of GE are "awesome" or "have no problems". whatever makes you happy then...
The Hermit
Member
This is difficulty done right. Until that game I've never bothered with higher difficulty settings.
Toadthemushroom
Member
The way I see it is it isn't really a debate worth having anyway.
Platform-exclusive games are built around their controls - the team making GoldenEye would have designed all the levels around playing with an N64 controller for instance. Likewise in multiplayer everyone has the same set of inputs so it's essentially a level playing field.
It'd be cool to play GoldenEye with keyboard and mouse controls but I'm not sure I'd actually *want* to - single player would definitely become easier, but navigating levels and aiming (especially fine-tuned aiming) will also feel too removed from how the game was carefully designed around.
Microsoft should attempt again, but this time actually be fair with Nintendo and release the same game on both the switch and xbox one. Maybe have some controller setups added for both consoles. I would like to play this with wii pointer, or actually release the n64 controller compatible with this on both machines.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
well, in the descrition they say "without any cheating." so, still fair on one of the most awesome controls/gameplays ever. poor GE...
nkarafo
Member
Again, this is for people who say Goldeneye's controls haven't aged well so it doesn't play as well as modern shooters. They compare the game to modern console shooters. So i provide them the option to play it like a modern console shooter. Nobody is comparing it to PC twitch shooters with KB+Mouse. This is completely off-topic.
you know Goldeneye has strafe running and explosion boosting right
nkarafo
Member
I like how you single out Goldeneye while you compare it with KB+mouse controls. Doesn't that affect all console games? If Goldeneye has shitty controls because KB+Mouse is superior then ALL console FPS must suck too (i'm using your own logic here).
You are off topic here my friend. This is for console FPS controls, not KB+Mouse.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
well, in a world where there are things like quake 3 on dreamcast and UT3 on PS3 that supports m&kb, no, that does not affect all console games. so there is not this "console controls" you talk about
and originaly, the topic is not even about controls, you brought up the "topic"...
Freezasaurus
Member
This was a glaring problem in Call of Duty: WaW. I remember not being able to shoot through barbed-wire fences.
Toadthemushroom
Member
well, in a world where there are things like quake 3 on dreamcast and UT3 on PS3 that supports m&kb, no, that does not affect all console games. so there is not this "console controls" you talk about
and originaly, the topic is not even about controls, you brought up the "topic"...
UT3 on PS3 and Quake 3 on DC are ports of PC games, rather than bespoke FPS titles made from the ground up for a single piece of hardware in mind, though.
Since the mid-to-late 90's the lines have blurred over controls due to multiplatform development, I guess with the exception of some Wii FPSes which were built solely around the pointer and gyro (like Red Steel 2)
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
so, it's even worse for GE, because it could be a pc port too and so to born good and has aged well
even using claw grip to make things better is a nightmare on the n64 controler...
daTRUballin
Member
It wasn't after the original PD when the Free Radical team left. It was after Goldeneye. And even then, it's not like the whole team left. Wasn't it only about 4 people or something? Quite a bit of the GE/PD team was still there when PDZ was being developed. I know that key people like Duncan Botwood and Mark Edmonds were a part of the PDZ team for sure.
I think the way PDZ turned out had little to do with the Free Rads leaving and has more to do with a lack of direction. The original PD turned out fine even without the Free Rads. It's just that PDZ had such a troubled development because it had to switch from GC to Xbox to Xbox 360. The final 360 version was pretty much rushed for launch.
And no, "most of Rare" didn't start leaving until 2009/2010 when the Kinect restructure happened.
The Stampers left in 2007. Just a minor correction.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Man, I forgot that PD Zero was delayed for so long that it didn't even hit the original Xbox. That game was on the "coming soon" screenshot section of my original Gamecube's retail box.
I've been replaying both GE and PD quite a bit thanks to this thread. And I'm glad that I bothered to unlock the extra difficulty modes for both games back in the day, as it lets me replay missions with all of the high-difficulty objectives but with lower enemy damage. Great for casual replays for someone who can't be bothered to relearn optimal routes 20 years later.
I've been replaying both GE and PD quite a bit thanks to this thread. And I'm glad that I bothered to unlock the extra difficulty modes for both games back in the day, as it lets me replay missions with all of the high-difficulty objectives but with lower enemy damage. Great for casual replays for someone who can't be bothered to relearn optimal routes 20 years later.