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UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29

When should the UK celebrate Independence Day?

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M

Micael

Member
theaface said:
But still, not to worry, at least we won't be dead! Every cloud, eh?
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Well about that part, considering the UK government is doing their absolute best to kill the NHS, which in turn will almost assuredly mean a US style health system sometime in the future, it will mean that poverty (as in decrease financial wealth) will actually lead to more people dying, and since the experts opinions on the UK exiting the EU is that it will lead to a poorer UK, then by extension that means that you will likely see unnecessary deaths caused by this.

So yeah...
 
C

Coxy100

Banned
Agent Gibbs said:
Despite voting to remain I agree the EU is incredibly undemocratic in areas and in great need of reform, but to effect change you need to be in the EU, it seems Breiteers wanted to leave the EU and watch it crash and burn, something it may or may not do, but its an awful stance.

I love Great Britain, I don't want to leave my country, but the way people are being misled and lapping it up, the way the left is self destructing and offering no real chance of opposition, I feel myself in a place where the only thing stopping me moving abroad now is family, if I can convince them to go with me, then I've no barriers left.

I'd love a political party that felt right to join and mount a political defence, but they are all awful right now, the centre is a no mans land and everyone's retreating to their own sides, worse still as I look back at the Coalition/Cameron governments they looked positively centrist compared to how May is taking us in her quest to out bitch Thatcher!
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Sadly this.

I voted remain too. But reading stuff like today (in the times) about how the EU want to make an example of us and make sure no other countries want to leave the EU because of how we are treated when you leave... how undemocratic is that?! (it was a quote from someone high up in the EU)
 
T

TimmmV

Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
Plenty of right wing echo chambers to go to.
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Quite.

Ever notice how the same types who complain that the UK has no control of its borders and that British culture is being eroded are also the ones whining about echo chambers when their rubbish is called out?

Funny that.

Coxy100 said:
Sadly this.

I voted remain too. But reading stuff like today (in the times) about how the EU want to make an example of us and make sure no other countries want to leave the EU because of how we are treated when you leave... how undemocratic is that?! (it was a quote from someone high up in the EU)
Click to expand...

*sigh*

1) The UK is not being made an example of if they are in a worse position after leaving then had they stayed in. Thats the nature of the decision the UK took.

2) How is this undemocratic? The EU is also respecting the outcome of the referendum. There is no democratic mandate for anyone in the EU to give the UK a good deal after leaving
 
P

pswii60

Member
LocnessDesignsdotcom.jpg
main-qimg-4026568b122d5f95deedeb0e8382ed6f-c


Reading through this thread, it's clear what's happening. I think we're past #1 now, some people are on #2, many have given up on #3 and are now on to #4. Not many at #5 :)
 
M

Micael

Member
Kabouter said:
Why not? You can always rejoin the EU if you want.
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Sort of, lost opportunity costs aside (which ofc also a factor for the US), it is borderline impossible for the UK to return with the same status it has right now, including very significant things like maintaining their own currency, so yes they can rejoin, but they cannot undo the damage done.

Coxy100 said:
Sadly this.

I voted remain too. But reading stuff like today (in the times) about how the EU want to make an example of us and make sure no other countries want to leave the EU because of how we are treated when you leave... how undemocratic is that?! (it was a quote from someone high up in the EU)
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with being democratic? The UK decides to leave, the EU will do what is best for the EU, being undemocratic would be if the EU didn't respect the UK decision to leave.
 
R

Rodelero

Member
TTOOLL said:
That's quite a bold statement and quite a generalization, my friend. I don't believe there's any proof of that.

On the topic of having a decent debate here, I don't know if it's possible when you see yourself and others here in a superior plane of intelligence and education and when most different opinions are seen as bigotry, intolerance or hate speech. Like, if a English person does not want his country to be so open to immigration, he prefers a more controlled system, is he intolerant? Is he hating other people? For what I read here frequently the answer would be yes, so that makes the debate impossible. You either agree with open borders or you're tagged as racist/intolerant.
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I absolutely love the psychology behind your response.

They complained that this forum is anti Brexit, despite the general population being (slightly) pro Brexit. I explained precisely why that is, based on the typical attributes of Remain voters, and the typical attributes of NeoGAF posters. You seem to have then taken, from this explanation, that I/we believe all Leave voters are unintelligent, uneducated, old, and intolerant. So let me be entirely clear: the fact that certain attributes correlate with a certain vote does not mean that everyone who voted that way shares all, or any, of those attributes. There are an inordinate number of exceptions, and you may well be one of them.
 
T

theaface

Member
Coxy100 said:
But reading stuff like today (in the times) about how the EU want to make an example of us and make sure no other countries want to leave the EU because of how we are treated when you leave... how undemocratic is that?! (it was a quote from someone high up in the EU)
Click to expand...

Even if I believed this to be true in the tone it was reported (I don't), that doesn't make it undemocratic. The EU will be comprised of 27 member countries, each with a say. Is it perfect? Of course not. But people need to re-evaluate their perception of it as an authoritarian hive mind. If the EU wants to send an example to the UK, it's because its members wish it to.

Tusk or Juncker aren't malevolent puppet masters pulling all the strings. With regards to Brexit in the here and now, it's absolutely in the EU members' interests to drive a hard bargain with the UK. That's just the reality. All you're seeing in the Times article is the press sowing the seeds in their readers' minds that the shitty deal we end up with somehow the EU's fault and not our own. Par for the course in this country - always someone else's fault (e.g. immigrants, the EU, poor people, disabled people, etc.)

For all the Murdoch rags bleating about how we were always done to by the EU, people quickly lose perspective that we have (or rather had) a very prominent seat at that table to shape its policy, and have chosen to walk away from that power of our own stupid volition.
 
K

kmag

Member
Where the EU is undemocratic, it's undemocratic because of the member states design, and their requirement for oversight and veto. Although it can be argued than giving each member state an extraparliamentary veto is actually more democratic than not having that veto.

The EU being 'undemocratic' is essentially a combination of misinformation, a lack of understanding about the delegation of responsibility in the legislative process, and some of the sausage making of getting 28 member nations having to agree on well anything. I don't think the EU is anywhere close to being perfect, but I've always found the notion of it being undemocratic to be a massive stretch, and basically shorthand for "it does stuff I (we) don't like on occasion".

The fundamental legislative process is more democratic than the UK equivalent for example.

The one real area where the EU has been undemocratic ironically has been in it's willingness to ignore instances of direct democracy in individual memberstates, see the Irish referendum.

And looking to 'punish' the UK for leaving (i.e not giving it the benefits of club membership while not being a member) is neither punishment nor undemocratic. Rhetoric aside, not throwing someone a lifeline when they jump overboard may not be the nicest course of action, but it's not undemocratic.
 
U

Ucchedavāda

Member
Micael said:
Sort of, lost opportunity costs aside (which ofc also a factor for the US), it is borderline impossible for the UK to return with the same status it has right now, including very significant things like maintaining their own currency, so yes they can rejoin, but they cannot undo the damage done.
Click to expand...

Would it even make sense to just let the UK rejoin the EU? All things considered, I would think that the EU would need some sort of assurance that the UK isn't just going to repeat the same dog and pony show a few years later. But I am speaking from a position of ignorance here.
 
M

Micael

Member
Ucchedavāda;232419030 said:
Would it even make sense to just let the UK rejoin the EU? All things considered, I would think that the EU would need some sort of assurance that the UK isn't just going to repeat the same dog and pony show a few years later. But I am speaking from a position of ignorance here.
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Well I think any country that actually leaves, takes the hit from it and then returns, would be really highly unlikely to leave again anytime soon, it would already take tremendous political capital to revert on such a major decision, let alone then redo it yet again.

Personally I think it would be the best possible case for the EU, it would show any country what entertaining leaving the EU entails, while stripping the UK from what is in my opinion a bullshit elevated position that it currently has, while at the same time keeping a very significant economy within the EU.
Not that I can see it happening at all anytime soon, a lot of the political figures in the UK as far as I know were against brexit, yet they are going full steam ahead (even spouting bullshit hard brexit) just so they don't piss off voters too much.

The biggest issue would be having them on the Euro, which I honestly have no idea if it would be good or bad.
 
P

PackAPunchedMick

Member
So what's the chances of leaving Europe, Scotland having a referendum, leaving the UK, then for England to start a civil war, winning, taking Scotland back......BOOM! A part of Europe again?
 
C

Coxy100

Banned
TimmmV said:
Quite.

Ever notice how the same types who complain that the UK has no control of its borders and that British culture is being eroded are also the ones whining about echo chambers when their rubbish is called out?

Funny that.



*sigh*

1) The UK is not being made an example of if they are in a worse position after leaving then had they stayed in. Thats the nature of the decision the UK took.

2) How is this undemocratic? The EU is also respecting the outcome of the referendum. There is no democratic mandate for anyone in the EU to give the UK a good deal after leaving
Click to expand...

*sigh*
you make a fair point that it's not undemocratic. However what it does do is feed the leavers "look see - what the nasty EU does" Just look at what comments say on the daily mail at the moment (I had the link but guess it's removed automatically)

And I would argue it's still undemocratic. He's basically saying to any other country thinking of leaving (which is their choice) if you do that financially we will **** you. (wouldn't it better to say "we will miss UK, but seeing as we're all part of Europe we will make sure we maintain our great relationship and trade deals blah blah)

Don't get me wrong - I'm a hardened remainer - but some of the stuff the EU lot come out with beggars belief.
 
C

CadetMahoney

Member
Agent Gibbs said:
The freedom of movement/border shit is utterly the biggest joke of all, watching the news and interviews of brexit voters in the north there were quite a few who went on about now we would be able to stop all the Indian's/Pakistani's/Muslims coming over here...........BUT WE ALREADY CONTROLLED NON EU PEOPLE YOU PLEB!
Click to expand...

Exactly the same government that controlled non-EU immigration is the same one now. And they had total control, EU had nothing to do with it. Jokes on Brexiters when non-EU immigration continues as much as the government feels like it. Nothing they voted on was "taking back control".
 
D

DarthMasta

Member
Coxy100 said:
*sigh*
you make a fair point that it's not undemocratic. However what it does do is feed the leavers "look see - what the nasty EU does" Just look at what comments say on the daily mail at the moment (I had the link but guess it's removed automatically)

And I would argue it's still undemocratic. He's basically saying to any other country thinking of leaving (which is their choice) if you do that financially we will **** you. (wouldn't it better to say "we will miss UK, but seeing as we're all part of Europe we will make sure we maintain our great relationship and trade deals blah blah)

Don't get me wrong - I'm a hardened remainer - but some of the stuff the EU lot come out with beggars belief.
Click to expand...

Britain leaving is a fait accompli as far as the EU is concerned, why should they worry about "feeding" the leavers in the UK? That's done, all they care about is not feeding leavers in countries in the EU (and UK turning into a financial mess won't feed leavers in the EU).

And again, there's never been a threat of financially fucking up the UK, that would be counterproductive. Not granting easy access to EU market to the British? Yeah, that the EU can do. Totally within it's rights, democratic, normal, loads of countries don't have privileged access to the EU.
 
T

TheBlackMarvel

Member
Coxy100 said:
*sigh*
you make a fair point that it's not undemocratic. However what it does do is feed the leavers "look see - what the nasty EU does" Just look at what comments say on the daily mail at the moment (I had the link but guess it's removed automatically)

And I would argue it's still undemocratic. He's basically saying to any other country thinking of leaving (which is their choice) if you do that financially we will **** you. (wouldn't it better to say "we will miss UK, but seeing as we're all part of Europe we will make sure we maintain our great relationship and trade deals blah blah)

Don't get me wrong - I'm a hardened remainer - but some of the stuff the EU lot come out with beggars belief.
Click to expand...

Their response wouldn't change regardless of tone.
 
GamingKaiju

GamingKaiju

Member
Xe4 said:
I mean, it's been going down after the referensum as well. Not as sharp, but it has been happening.
C7TlBn4VAAA6DVe.jpg

Still, I suppose two weeks is too soon for it to drop ~23%.
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GBPVsUSD Has being sideways for some time following it's sharp fall. To put it another way it really hasn't gone anywhere, just testing swing highs/lows, support/resistance.

It'll be probably retract to a higher low then start a very slow upward trend. Good time to look for a long term position 😀
 
A

Agent Gibbs

Member
CadetMahoney said:
Exactly the same government that controlled non-EU immigration is the same one now. And they had total control, EU had nothing to do with it. Jokes on Brexiters when non-EU immigration continues as much as the government feels like it. Nothing they voted on was "taking back control".
Click to expand...

Its actually more likely to get worse, as labour shortages will require workers, so if the EU is punishing us/not favouring us then we'll seek them outside the EU, from growing markets like India, Pakistan, China and we'll see the same if not higher immigration as a cost.

I don't like the fact we are leaving one bit, I feel incredibly and unfairly hated by people bashing Britain collectively over brexit when I'm still an Eu citizen and wanted to remain as one, but I totally understand why they are taking their pound of flesh so to speak - I just wish we could somehow hit the brexit voters hardest so they have the tough love they seem to need

I still say a lack of education and willingness to educate oneself is the while reason the xenophobia has run so wild! (you could lay that claim at the US too) and whilst I feel sorry for people who have been taken in by the propaganda/been too lazy to learn the truth/see both sides, I'm still incredibly angry for the situation they have put us in!
 
T

TimmmV

Member
Coxy100 said:
you make a fair point that it's not undemocratic. However what it does do is feed the leavers "look see - what the nasty EU does" Just look at what comments say on the daily mail at the moment (I had the link but guess it's removed automatically)
Click to expand...

The EU not choosing to pander to the comments section of the Mail is hardly something that should be considered a negative.

Coxy100 said:
And I would argue it's still undemocratic. He's basically saying to any other country thinking of leaving (which is their choice) if you do that financially we will **** you. (wouldn't it better to say "we will miss UK, but seeing as we're all part of Europe we will make sure we maintain our great relationship and trade deals blah blah)
Click to expand...

That isn't undemocratic, and its not the EU's responsibility to bend over backwards to appease the UK. I would argue that the comments from Hammond about turning the UK into a tax haven are much more aggressive than your example here.

I really don't know why you expect Europe to respond to the UK with sentiment like you have quoted there, considering the rhetoric thats come from the UK for the last few decades

Coxy100 said:
Don't get me wrong - I'm a hardened remainer - but some of the stuff the EU lot come out with beggars belief.
Click to expand...

The EU being less than perfect is no reason to sack the whole thing off. And need I remind you that a big part of the leave campaign was a widely acknowledged lie plastered on the side of a bus. They're hardly the only ones coming out with things that beggar belief, nor are they the worst
 
U

UpDownLeftRight

Banned
9 fucking days? I can hardly make the bills as it is given the prices rising since this shit was even floated. Well thanks a bunch for fucking my livelihood any racist fuckbags who voted for this shit on baseless lies. April is going to be the month I start being unable to cover the rent now isn't it?
 
P

pswii60

Member
UpDownLeftRight said:
9 fucking days? I can hardly make the bills as it is given the prices rising since this shit was even floated. Well thanks a bunch for fucking my livelihood any racist fuckbags who voted for this shit on baseless lies. April is going to be the month I start being unable to cover the rent now isn't it?
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Which of your bills have gone up since July?
 
A

Agent Gibbs

Member
faridmon said:
Man, as a Norwegian who lives and works in UK, I am gonna get fucked or what?
Click to expand...

Well surely you'd need to go on a date for that with someone?

but I jest, no idea, the xenophobia is rather selectively targeted at eastern Europeans (Polish and other countries from the former soviet areas) and anyone who's skin is brown or religion is Islam, so more developed 'western' European states are fine
but then that's trying to apply a twisted logic to the xenophobes and second guess how they work, maybe anyone not called John smith with Ivory skin tones will get lambasted in the future
 
A

Agent Gibbs

Member
UpDownLeftRight said:
9 fucking days? I can hardly make the bills as it is given the prices rising since this shit was even floated. Well thanks a bunch for fucking my livelihood any racist fuckbags who voted for this shit on baseless lies. April is going to be the month I start being unable to cover the rent now isn't it?
Click to expand...

pswii60 said:
Which of your bills have gone up since July?
Click to expand...

Thats not the affect of Brexit, Energy suppliers have all been hiking prices and blaming brexit when in fact whole sale costs are down, they just do it under the guise of preparing for brexit* *AKA F you give me your money I'm a greedy corporation tax

if they are all making record profits year on year people should surely realise they are making profit at the expense of peoples understanding - Profit is everything made AFTER ALL COSTS, so they are just trying to maintain or expand their profits year on year as they are greedy
 
MilkyJoe

MilkyJoe

Member
Micael said:
Well about that part, considering the UK government is doing their absolute best to kill the NHS, which in turn will almost assuredly mean a US style health system sometime in the future, it will mean that poverty (as in decrease financial wealth) will actually lead to more people dying, and since the experts opinions on the UK exiting the EU is that it will lead to a poorer UK, then by extension that means that you will likely see unnecessary deaths caused by this.

So yeah...
Click to expand...

Any government would be out on their arse in the next election, if this were to happen.
 
P

pswii60

Member
Agent Gibbs said:
Well surely you'd need to go on a date for that with someone?

but I jest, no idea, the xenophobia is rather selectively targeted at eastern Europeans (Polish and other countries from the former soviet areas) and anyone who's skin is brown or religion is Islam, so more developed 'western' European states are fine
but then that's trying to apply a twisted logic to the xenophobes and second guess how they work, maybe anyone not called John smith with Ivory skin tones will get lambasted in the future
Click to expand...
Basically. Nobody had an issue with the Irish despite huge numbers migrating to the UK and the IRA being responsible for huge amounts of terrorism in the UK. But then the Polish and Muslims get it in the neck.
 
L

Linkstrikesback

Member
pswii60 said:
Which of your bills have gone up since July?
Click to expand...

My electric bill and internet both went up by significant amounts. Food too, but that's not directly obvious.

I even got a letter citing higher costs being the reason my electricity bill went up, which is no doubt in my mind part of the drop in the value of the pound relative to other currencies, so...

MilkyJoe said:
Any government would be out on their arse in the next election, if this were to happen.
Click to expand...
If they did it directly in one fell swoop, sure. But that's why they're slowly chipping away at it instead, by forcing more services on them and not providing enough money for them, among other things.
 
D

Danny 117

Member
Linkstrikesback said:
My electric bill and internet both went up by significant amounts. Food too, but that's not directly obvious.

I even got a letter citing higher costs being the reason my electricity bill went up, which is no doubt in my mind part of the drop in the value of the pound relative to other currencies, so...
Click to expand...

Yep also the price of Gas is going up for me by 12.2%
 
P

pswii60

Member
Agent Gibbs said:
Thats not the affect of Brexit, Energy suppliers have all been hiking prices and blaming brexit when in fact whole sale costs are down, they just do it under the guise of preparing for brexit* *AKA F you give me your money I'm a greedy corporation tax

if they are all making record profits year on year people should surely realise they are making profit at the expense of peoples understanding - Profit is everything made AFTER ALL COSTS, so they are just trying to maintain or expand their profits year on year as they are greedy
Click to expand...
True, there's been a lot of companies taking advantage of Brexit in that way too. But there's no escaping imports increasing in price.

It'll be ok though because we'll just make and grow everything in the UK instead*

*lol
 
A

Agent Gibbs

Member
Steverulez said:
So, is this the day the NHS gets its first £350m cheque?
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Uhhh people really should be in jail over that lie!

pswii60 said:
True, there's been a lot of companies taking advantage of Brexit in that way too. But there's no escaping imports increasing in price.

It'll be ok though because we'll just make and grow everything in the UK instead*

*lol
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Well of course we will, we are GREAT Britain we ruled the world and did everything ourselves! wait what's that you say we reaped the benefits of other countries and imported everything then? no that can't be true the Tories say its all lies and they are known for being truthful bastions of all that's good, who wouldn't even think of spitefully destroying an industry like Steel/Coal just to quell a bit of decent from the masses


That's what I assume goes round peoples heads who think about the good old days!
I think of the good old days where we went to war with oppressive nations to protect our European brothers, when we took in refugees with open arms escaping famine/war and made do and mend, helped our fellow man (although there was some nasty elements of life) that's the lessons I take from the past, not this imperialistic super power nonsense! unless we start a war of conquest to recreate the empire we've no hope of the good old days some people yearn for (Christ have I given them an idea?)
 
L

Linkstrikesback

Member
Agent Gibbs said:
Thats not the affect of Brexit, Energy suppliers have all been hiking prices and blaming brexit when in fact whole sale costs are down, they just do it under the guise of preparing for brexit* *AKA F you give me your money I'm a greedy corporation tax

if they are all making record profits year on year people should surely realise they are making profit at the expense of peoples understanding - Profit is everything made AFTER ALL COSTS, so they are just trying to maintain or expand their profits year on year as they are greedy
Click to expand...

Blaming it solely on greed is silly.

It is fact that a lot of UK energy comes from other places, including Europe, plus that our energy suppliers are largely foreign owned, because we sold them off. Npower, for instance, is part of a German company. The pound is down in value against lots of major currencies Vs this time a year ago, which means it costs more to buy energy from those people. They also then need to maintain profit in the respective home currencies, not the GBP, those two facts (and they are facts!) meaning they need to charge more to keep the books the same.


They have no reason to bend over and take a hit for he British people, and that nonsense logic, that we are somehow better or deserve a better deal simply for being British is going to bite a lot of people in the ass in the coming months, as reality hits.
 
C

Chris1

Member
UpDownLeftRight said:
Energy mostly. The real killer has been the steady price jacking at supermarkets though. Each week has seen a small increase at the local and it's all adding up bit by bit.
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Noticed ASDA is getting a lot more expensive lately aswell, don't think the actual price has been hiked but their sales are worse and not as often as they used to be on certain things (beans, etc)
 
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