CrichtonKicks
Member
DA:I was on Frostbite and looks significantly better despite being forced to be be cross-generation.
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Naughty Dog animator explains ME's animation
- Thread starter bananafactory
- Start date
DA:I was on Frostbite and looks significantly better despite being forced to be be cross-generation.
Kremzeek
Member
yeah i agree, it just stings that the facework in the previous ME's just looks better than this new one, despite being made years later on more powerful hardware.
Heckler456
Banned
The general animations in combat are pretty well done, and a large improvement over previous installments. I'd also say that the general locomotion of Ryder is more impressive than Geralt's. Not perse the combat animation, but just the way Ryder walks.
"The animations" in ME:A are, as a whole, not objectively bad. Undercooked, and some of the scripting clearly went wrong, though.
Point being, just because most people know better than to share that opinion in threads like these, lest they have to explain themselves, that doesn't mean that your opinion is the only one.
CamHostage
Member
Eh, that's sort of what he's saying, but not really. He's more saying that the systematic stuff isn't cutting it and so companies just have to bite the bullet in buying mocap equipment and suiting up actors if they want that level of performance that mocap can provide despite its drawbacks, and that if he ran the department, he'd push for as efficient and cost-effective mocap tech in this field as possible because it's qualities and drawbacks are better known right now. He saw more successes in Horizon by doing facial cap than other methods, and in his experience, "AAA story-heavy games can't skimp on the animation quality with a systematic approach alone". It's promising tech, but we're not there and may never be.
The problem with mocap versus VO is that a mocap actor looks like this:
All those dots. All those cameras. All that gear strapped to them. All that warehouse space that they're working in. It's a lot of stuff to pay for, and a lot of stuff to put up with. Get a great actor, get a talented director, get a space with the right layout to allow play, and you may well get a fantastic performance; it's an extension of theater, and it's full-body performing all "captured" in one. But there's a ton that can go wrong, a ton of restrictions on what the current tools can cope with, and a ton of fine detail that goes uncaptured.
If you really want the fine detail of the face to be captured, you need a dedicated facial capture rig. There are a number of ways of doing this, and some of those methods are as comfortable as this:
...but most are as uncomfortable as this:
Either way, you have a big kit of equipment, a limit of mobility for the actor (projects like HellBlade and the Apes movies take face capture out of the chair, but you still have a camera sticking out of your face and gear strapped to you,) a requirement of space, and a lot of weird tech to play with. (BTW, you talked about having to "touch up the eyes" for the actors reading off the script... it's actually a lot more work than "touch up" when you really think about how the face moves when eyes look around, and once you include those subtle movements, if the face is moving that much all the time, what's the point of fine facial capture anyway?) Mocap is a different kind of acting, and the tech will continue to improve, but there's good reason Andy Serkis keeps getting high-profile mocap jobs, because he's one of the very best in the world at this emerging new acting challenge, and not many others are in his league yet. Mocap takes different talents, and it produces different types of performances.
Now, let's look at a voice over artist at work...
Hey, that dude looks comfy! He's in the t-shirt he wore into the building, he's wearing his reading glasses, he's got a script on a music stand, he's got cans on his ears so he can hear how it's coming out, he's making wild gestures with his hands and making weird expressions with his face that may or may not have anything to do with what the character would look like once drawn, and he's doing it in a warm little wood studio. That's a guy that could rip through pages and pages of content, and the only limitation imposed on him is how long his voice holds out and how many water bottles are stocked in the back room. Sure, some animator is going to have to spend backbreaking work animating the sounds this actor is making (or some tech wizard is going to spend the same amount and more backbreaking work designing technology that can systematically re-create human expressivity,) but damn if this guy isn't free to give it his all!
...And that's why professional animator Cooper is saying that if he ran the room, he'd probably put his chips on mocap since it is paying off more than other solutions in projects he works, but even he doesn't see this route as "100% proved". The integration of systematic approaches to animation (of having syllables translated to mouth movements and of having animation routines defined for gestures and for blending animattions together and for whatever I can't even think of that they've tried in order to make a digital actor act like a human ... I'm also not an animator) hold promise, but they're not cutting it. A combination of these techniques, as well as new techniques, will be needed in order to do 100+ hour games with animation that's not slapped on Youtube with LOLs for every mistake, but so far, the only real way to get the levels of quality audiences demand today is to invest time and money.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
He excused nothing despite the very well-detailed explanation.
Bioware had this game in development for FIVE years. It should have been ready. Clearly multiple people worked on the core functions of this game for years while demonstrating unchecked incompetency at their jobs.
I don't buy that they planned to go back and fix everything all along but just ran out of time. The game has far too many bugs for that long of a dev cycle with as large of a budget as it had.
And the fact that they released it thinking it was anywhere near acceptable for a AAA game is extremely telling.
Bioware had this game in development for FIVE years. It should have been ready. Clearly multiple people worked on the core functions of this game for years while demonstrating unchecked incompetency at their jobs.
I don't buy that they planned to go back and fix everything all along but just ran out of time. The game has far too many bugs for that long of a dev cycle with as large of a budget as it had.
And the fact that they released it thinking it was anywhere near acceptable for a AAA game is extremely telling.
ScientificPizza
Banned
Fantastic insight
ronaldthump
Member
well there's this and of course, the wrongly identified individual was a woman which made it even worse with the online trolling.
I think the "tweeter" should have written an article for a good site instead of those tweets. as it'd make for an easier read. That said, very salient points from a professional!
Eh, that's sort of what he's saying, but not really. He's more saying that the systematic stuff isn't cutting it and so companies just have to bite the bullet in buying equipment and suiting up actors if they want that level of performance, and that if he ran the department, he'd push for as efficient and cost-effective tech in this field as possible. He saw more successes in Horizon by doing facial cap than other methods, and in his experience, "AAA story-heavy games can't skimp on the animation quality with a systematic approach alone". It's promising tech, but we're not there and may never be.
The problem with mocap versus VO is that a mocap actor looks like this:
All those dots. All those cameras. All that gear strapped to them. All that warehouse space that they're working in. It's a lot of stuff to pay for, and a lot of stuff to put up with. Get a great actor, get a talented director, get a space with the right layout to allow play, and you may well get a fantastic performance; it's an extension of theater, and it's full-body performing all "captured" in one. But there's a ton that can go wrong, a ton of restrictions on what the current tools can cope with, and a ton of fine detail that goes uncaptured.
If you really want the fine detail of the face to be captured, you need a dedicated facial capture rig. There are a number of ways of doing this, and some of those methods are as comfortable as this:
...but most are as uncomfortable as this:
Either way, you have a big kit of equipment, a limit of mobility for the actor (projects like HellBlade and the Apes movies take face capture out of the chair, but you still have a camera sticking out of your face and gear strapped to you,) a requirement of space, and a lot of weird tech to play with. (BTW, you talked about having to "touch up the eyes" for the actors reading off the script... it's actually a lot more work than "touch up" if you're thinking about how the face moves when it looks, and then if the face is moving that much all the time, what's the point of fine facial capture anyway?) It's a different kind of acting, and the tech will continue to improve, but Andy Serkis keeps getting mocap jobs because he's one of the very best in the world at this emerging new acting challenge.
Now, let's look at a voice over artist at work...
Hey, that dude looks comfy! He's in the t-shirt he wore into the building, he's wearing his reading glasses, he's got a script on a music stand, he's got cans on his ears so he can hear how it's coming out, he's making wild gestures with his hands and making weird expressions with his face that may or may not have anything to do with what the character would look like once drawn, and he's doing it in a warm little wood studio. That's a guy that could rip through pages and pages of content, and the only limitation imposed on him is how long his voice holds out and how many water bottles are stocked in the back room. Sure, some animator is going to have to spend backbreaking work animating the sounds this actor is making (or some tech wizard is going to spend the same amount and more backbreaking work designing technology that can systematically re-create human expressivity,) but damn if this guy isn't free to give it his all!
...And that's why professional animator Cooper is saying that if he ran the room, he'd probably put his chips on mocap since it is paying off more than other solutions in projects he works, but even he doesn't see this route as "100% proved", and that the only real way to get the levels of quality audiences demand today is to invest time and money.
Thanks for the detailed post. I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to explain this part of the process.
Outrun
Member
It is the first game in a while that I have felt profound disappointment. I am returning it tomorrow. I never thought I would say that about a ME game.
BobTheFork
Member
I'm playing ME1 for the first time this week (played 2 and 3 already) and it's made me want to play the new one more.
ME1 has got some wonky stuff it in. Of course it's a much older game and you would hope to see the progression shown in 2 and 3 continue but I'm really enjoying it and I don't think I care as much about the animations in Andromeda now.
ME1 has got some wonky stuff it in. Of course it's a much older game and you would hope to see the progression shown in 2 and 3 continue but I'm really enjoying it and I don't think I care as much about the animations in Andromeda now.
CamHostage
Member
To be clear, I'm not an animator either, just an animation fan -- anybody who has experience, please kick my ass and add some more info where I'm not on it.
But I did do a double-take when I first saw this post, because before clicking, I psyched myself up too much. "Oh, awesome, a working animator from a studio on the bleeding edge, here to give insight on what cool animation tech is out there but why it can still let down even a massive project like Mass Effect!" that's what I had in my head, and Jonathan Cooper did hit those points. But unfortunately, he's not as hyped in the future of systematic solutions as I was wishing he would be (though the way they're doing sequencing and blending is pretty rad, and I'm not sold on mocap solving everything but even if I'm on Team Systematic, I can't deny that mocap is truly space-age coolness as well.) No matter what, he's saying if you really, really want lifelike quality, you'll have to work for it.
That's not what he's here to do. He didn't work on the game, he doesn't speak for the team that did work on it. He's just giving insight into his analysis of its animation system and the problems that have been identified in its presentation.
I played ME3 again before I tried Andromeda and despite the awkward animations it still felt like a big jump, so you should be good.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
This world needs more people like you. Very well said.
texhnolyze
Banned
This guy gets it. Unlike folks who keep bringing Uncharted 4 animation in every other games.
The OP does that.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
I cannot stop laughing at that "my face is tired" line lol. It's like you said - it's almost as if that line is breaking the fourth wall rofl.
"Sorry, my face is tired."
- said no one, ever (until ME:A)
miller.skippins
Banned
i don't think anyone is comparing ME:A to UC4...hands down the pinnacle of animation in games at the moment......
if anything else, they are comparing ME:A to ME1 - 3.........which doesn't suffer from animation problem walking up a stairs.
if anything else, they are comparing ME:A to ME1 - 3.........which doesn't suffer from animation problem walking up a stairs.
This. None of what this animator says excuses the poor end-result of a multitude of animations in ME Andromeda vs other recent games.
Heckler456
Banned
We just had a thread where the OP postulated that every game should aim towards Uncharted 4 level of fidelity in terms of animation.
potatohead
Member
Good for him to speak on behalf of the developers.
Sure it's not great and critique is warranted but there is no reason for people to harass them or for example be elitist and demand animation as in uncharted for every fuckong game. Absolutely disgusting and elitist.
Critique and hope they are able to fix it or do better for the next game and hope ea gives them enough funding to be able to do so.
Sure it's not great and critique is warranted but there is no reason for people to harass them or for example be elitist and demand animation as in uncharted for every fuckong game. Absolutely disgusting and elitist.
Critique and hope they are able to fix it or do better for the next game and hope ea gives them enough funding to be able to do so.
Recent games ?
Me1 :
Me:A
Trick question : which one conveys emotion ?
Neither?
Mass Effect 1 does seem to display an emotional language of sorts. Surprise, mainly. Without the text, I'd still know the character was being caught off guard by something.
I don't know what's being expressed in the latter?
theangrypirate
Member
Agreed, really puts things into perspective.
I think the real difference is that Fallout is partially satire, so any jank adds a little of unintentional comedy to the intended comedy. ME is a serious series
on top of that, the fallout jank isn't that bad because when it goes bad, it normally is more dramatic and drastic. so you have people in fallout moving either robotically but as expected, or spastically and obviously wrong
while ME:A does have people walking funny, the worse part is the expected movements are slightly wrong. handshakes failing a little, eyes jittering, etc. while Fallout will have that kind of thing from time to time, it doesn't seem as pervasive as in ME:A
honestly the animations don't shock me that much, cause animation is _HARD_ and it is not unexpected that an AAA game will be rushed out of the door with systematically bad animations, but the graphics for the faces in ME:A are horrible, and dunno why, given they were largely fine in DA:I, a game by the same company, that was launched what...two or three years ago?
I will still buy the game just to support Bioware, they have earned that much trust from me. I hope they can learn from this with regards to how much they manage their future projects because from all I have gathered, it seem to boil down to a Project Management issue. They had a set deadline, a lot of their initial estimated workflow didn't align with the timeline because they underestimated how much it required to actually do something of such magnitude, especially with impressive results. I mean, this is the first Mass Effect for the new consoles and everyone was very excited, so of course they wanted to impress and it didn't go well yeah, I'm sure they are gutted as are the fans but they will definitely learn from it, that is a guarantee.
Dictator93
Member
The problem with mocap versus VO is that a mocap actor looks like this:
All those dots.
There are ways of recording facial capture with a head set up that do not involve dotting the face. Just as an FYI
I may be fickle but if I have to click out of Twitter to read what someone is saying off the cuff, I just skip the entire thing. Same thing if I see a partial post with fb.me url following it up.
The Last of Us documentary was interesting for this. They did "facial capture" but without the dots, essentially they just recorded the actors and then hand animated based on video recording of the actors performing. I know this doesn't really apply for every conversation in a massive RPG but the quality speaks for itself.
Majukun
Member
fair argument,but it only shifts the blame from the single division of the team to management/director and or publisher..either the director should have been able to understand that his/her approach was not possible,or the publisher should have delayed the game to increase the quality of the final product..yes it's not free, but if you don't care you get a situation like andromeda,where the game it's reaching the shelves with a lot of bad advertisement around it.
thepenguin55
Member
Jonathan Cooper said:
This makes so much sense. Especially because while they're very few and far between there have been some scenes where I was like "wait, that was really well animated". But those moments are like an oasis in a desert.
semiconscious
Member
yep. that's why i enjoyed his explanation. he explains what he thinks happened, & not why it did. he left that for bioware to explain
...Sodding_Gamer
Member
The animations do indeed suck. But just changing the eyeball textures for everyone would help this game a tonne. Even just for the main characters you meet and your squad. Surely that can't take too long?!
That and a performance patch on ps4 because my God does it run like dogshit.
That and a performance patch on ps4 because my God does it run like dogshit.
AuthenticM
Member
That's all well and good, but the end result is still the end result. They need to fix this for the sequel.
If there'll be one
ehhhh
I sort of get that feeling when I see someone tweeting 21 times in a row to do the same thing. Reading something on Twitlonger is much more convenient to read, and I'd guess to type too.
GalacticMouse
Member
Cooper's tweets make a lot of sense and seem to play into the idea that this game just had way too much of a hill to climb with new premise, new characters, insane hype, and using Frostbite for the first time on top of all of that. I would have preferred EA hold the game back and give the team 6 more months to polish it before release, but these tweets make it seem to me like hitting a March release date wasn't optional.
Actually, yeah. This is my first Mass Effect game so I'm not holding it up against prior games in the series and I'm having a good time with it. Some of the facial animations are really bad, most have been mediocre, occasionally they're good. That having been said, the voice acting has all been awesome so far, which takes some of the sting off. I also play with subtitles on, so I'm often reading along with the dialogue rather than watching the characters' lips.
The combat has been really fun so far. Menus are a bit cumbersome and there are a TON of customization options for how you play, but once you get a loadout that you like, the moment to moment gameplay works great.
Honestly, I think the reviews have this right on the money. To me, it's around a 7 - 7.5 and I'm about 8-10 hours into it. The game has some issues (many of them with presentation), but I've been on an open-world / RPG kick lately and this is scratching the itch.
Actually, yeah. This is my first Mass Effect game so I'm not holding it up against prior games in the series and I'm having a good time with it. Some of the facial animations are really bad, most have been mediocre, occasionally they're good. That having been said, the voice acting has all been awesome so far, which takes some of the sting off. I also play with subtitles on, so I'm often reading along with the dialogue rather than watching the characters' lips.
The combat has been really fun so far. Menus are a bit cumbersome and there are a TON of customization options for how you play, but once you get a loadout that you like, the moment to moment gameplay works great.
Honestly, I think the reviews have this right on the money. To me, it's around a 7 - 7.5 and I'm about 8-10 hours into it. The game has some issues (many of them with presentation), but I've been on an open-world / RPG kick lately and this is scratching the itch.
Wishmaster92
Member
Liara has much more emotion. The way her eyes open up and eyebrows move makes it convincing. I can't believe we got that in 2007 with xb360.Recent games ?
Me1 :
Me:A
Trick question : which one conveys emotion ?
What I got from this. Video game animations are hard, and even harder to do with a rpg. My issue isn't how difficult it is to do; my issue is them not putting in the extra time to do it well. If time was the issue, the game should have been scaled back to accomplish every part of it well. But instead, they tried to make a massive game and underdeveloped it in important areas.
CamHostage
Member
Right, the dots are probably the first piece that will eventually evolve in facial mocap. (I haven't looked into the tech but I assume a combination of more facial bone detail in models, increased resolution cameras, and improvements in middleware interpolation in stuff like FaceFX is making that happen? And I wonder how much less uncomfortable application like discreet facepaint and invisible UV markers can help get detail that dots are a kludge for?) I'm not sure what the differences are so far in marker-less mocap quality and range (if you have the markers, my guess would be that you'd get some movement data that doesn't conform to your model rig that'd then teach you what new bones/movements to add to the model?) but the fact that it has good lip/cheek/jaw movement and can even catch and simulate that unusual cheek-puff makes it look quite promising to my eye.
If you look at HellBlade by Ninja Theory, for example, even over the life of its development, they have changed how many dots are needed (or at least have occasions where they need fewer dots than other times.)
Mocap from a video in 2015
Mocap done live in 2016