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Real Time with Bill Maher : Maajid Nawaz Interview

Atheism exists in opposition to religion. If religion wasn't a thing, 'Atheism' wouldn't be a word.

Not really....

It just means you personally don't believe in a god.


Being an atheist doesn't require you to oppose the sheer existence of religious beliefs in others

One can also oppose an ideology whilst criticising the same ideology (or parts of the same ideology).

Edit: man, I truly messed that up. Let me try again:

One can support someone's right to practice an ideology whilst one also criticises that same ideology.

But criticism doesn't equal being anti something. Anti implies saying it shouldn't exist.

I criticize white america all the time... doesn't mean I'd call myself anti-American or anti-white.

Whereas I do call myself anti-racist and anti-white supremacy because both of those things should be eradicated from society.
 

Arkage

Banned
Being "anti-Islam" or "anti-Judaism/Jewish" or "anti-Hispanic" is, by definition, bigotry. It's incredibly disingenuous to twist or redefine the common meaning of words to claim otherwise.

Interesting how so easily you confuse an ideology, which one can control, with ethnicities, which one can't. It illustrates the mass confusion on what "bigotry" means. Bigotry is simply having intolerance toward those who hold different opinions than yourself. It has no inherent ethical character. For example, you are likely a bigot when it comes to Nazis and white supremacists.

The SPLC is idiotic when it puts Ayaan and Maajid into their watchlist. These are two people actively trying to show how deeply flawed an ideology is in order to convince the believers to give up said ideology. If you are confusing an ideology with a skin color then you're using the same logic as those those who claimed Obama was Islamic due to his race. Ayaan personally suffered deeply under this ideology i.e. female genital mutilation, arranged marriage. If you had your genitals cut up, and you know it happens to girls regularly due to an ideology, you'd be just as forceful in your language. All of this ignores the fact that Maajid and Ayaan require constant security detail so they don't get murdered by the followers of the ideology they criticize.

For those asking who the best anti-Islamism speaker is who doesn't have the taint of "bigotry," I suggest you check out Sarah Haider. She's an ex-Muslim that started a organization for Muslims that want to leave their faith (www.exmna.com). Harris had her on his podcast and she did a good amount of pushback to his weaker claims (which many of you would probably view as the bigoted claims).

For those who want to throw Harris et al. under the bus as bigots, I encourage you to give this podcast a listen and tell me what you think of Sarah Haider. I think she does a much better job than Harris and the rest in making an rational, compassionate case to push back against Islamism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-XXQV3mZlg
 

Hyams

Member
This isn't true at all. Especially the use of opposition, and that somehow spiritual ideas only exist within the structure of a specific religion.

I don't think I mentioned spiritual ideas. I don't disagree with that at all. Spirituality can exist outside the confines of religion.

But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong. The atheist ideology (if you can call it that) exists only in the negative of religion. That is what I mean by 'oppose'.
 
Interesting how so easily you confuse an ideology, which one can control, with ethnicities, which one can't. It illustrates the mass confusion on what "bigotry" means.

The SPLC is idiotic when it puts Ayaan and Maajid into their watchlist. These are two people actively trying to show how deeply flawed an ideology is in order to convince the believers to give up said ideology. If you are confusing an ideology with a skin color then you're using the same logic as those those who claimed Obama was Islamic due to his race. Ayaan personally suffered deeply under this ideology i.e. female genital mutilation, arranged marriage. If you had your genitals cut up, and you know it happens to girls regularly due to an ideology, you'd be just as forceful in your language. All of this ignores the fact that Maajid and Ayaan require constant security detail so they don't get murdered by the followers of the ideology they criticize.

For those asking who the best anti-Islamism speaker is who doesn't have the taint of "bigotry," I suggest you check out Sarah Haider. She's an ex-Muslim that started a organization for Muslims that want to leave their faith (www.exmna.com). Harris had her on his podcast and she did a good amount of pushback to his weaker claims (which many of you would probably view as the bigoted claims).

For those who want to throw Harris et al. under the bus as bigots, I encourage you to give this podcast a listen and tell me what you think of Sarah Haider. I think she does a much better job than Harris and the rest in making an rational, compassionate case to push back against Islamism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-XXQV3mZlg

I saw Sarah Haider give a talk once, she's fantastic. Sent to a Madras in Pakistan as a kid but switched on when she discovered socialism at college.

Edit: It wasn't Sarah Haider sorry, it was Aliyah Saleem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqNVke3_On4
 
I don't think I mentioned spiritual ideas. I don't disagree with that at all. Spirituality can exist outside the confines of religion.

But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong. The atheist ideology (if you can call it that) exists only in the negative of religion. That is what I mean by 'oppose'.

By that logic you'd have to say for example that all Christians have to be anti-Judaism and vice versa.
 

Hyams

Member
Not really....

It just means you personally don't believe in a god.


Being an atheist doesn't require you to oppose the sheer existence of religious beliefs in others



But criticism doesn't equal being anti something. Anti implies saying it shouldn't exist.

I criticize white america all the time... doesn't mean I'd call myself anti-American or anti-white.

Whereas I do call myself anti-racist and anti-white supremacy because both of those things should be eradicated from society.

You're conflating ideology (racism, white supremacy) with race/ethnicity (being American, being white).

I think this is where a lot of the miscommunication is coming from.

Being anti-Islam or anti-Christianity isn't the same as being anti-Muslim or anti-Christian.
 

SummitAve

Banned
I don't think I mentioned spiritual ideas. I don't disagree with that at all. Spirituality can exist outside the confines of religion.

But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong. The atheist ideology (if you can call it that) exists only in the negative of religion. That is what I mean by 'oppose'.

I brought up spiritual ideas because they would still exist if there was no religion, and thus something would exist for people to think differently of. Why does it have to be that religion is wrong, and not they just believe different things?
 
You're conflating ideology (racism, white supremacy) with race/ethnicity (being American, being white).

I think this is where a lot of the miscommunication is coming from.

Being anti-Islam or anti-Christianity isn't the same as being anti-Muslim or anti-Christian.

By that logic one could say they are anti-racism but not anti-racists.... and that makes no sense.


Also religions have a wide berth of ideology.

I mean look at the difference between say Unitarians and Fundamentalist Christians...
 
By that logic one could say they are anti-racism but not anti-racists.... and that makes no sense.


Also religions have a wide berth of ideology.

I mean look at the difference between say Unitarians and Fundamentalist Christians...

The ideology is largely the same amongst sects of a religion, it's the dogma that is different.
 
No, because Christianity exists independent of other religions, such as Judaism. Atheism exists only as the opposite to theism.

Is the term anti-theist completely redundant to you?

I'll bite. How should I identify in your view if I want to say I don't believe in God, but am also exist in a state of complete and utter apathy to the existence of religion. Is that not just atheism to you?
 

Hyams

Member
By that logic one could say they are anti-racism but not anti-racists.... and that makes no sense.


Also religions have a wide berth of ideology.

I mean look at the difference between say Unitarians and Fundamentalist Christians...

I see nothing illogical about hating racism but not necessarily hating individual racists.

Not quite sure what you're getting at with your other point.
 

cackhyena

Member
I'm not sure why other religions come into this. They just don't seem to compare. The difference between Islam and others, is that what they follow in writing is supposed to be the actual written word of God. You can't ammend what a deity put on paper. How would you ever expect otherwise?

I think we'll be stuck with a minor section of Muslims who forever take the violent parts literally and put it into action. Nawaz is fighting an uphill battle. Meanwhile all the moderate Muslims who just want to get on with life suffer this unjust persecution. That poor 17 year old as the latest victim.
 
I see nothing illogical about hating racism but not necessarily hating individual racists.

Not quite sure what you're getting at with your other point.

Because that makes zero sense....

I hate racism but you know I have no problem with people who are racist....

Come on.
 

Kadayi

Banned
But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong. The atheist ideology (if you can call it that) exists only in the negative of religion. That is what I mean by 'oppose'.

Not at all. I'm an atheist, but I don't actively go around shitting on other people's beliefs. People can believe what they like as far as I'm concerned, my only issue is that they respect other people's rights to do likewise.
 

cackhyena

Member
I don't think I mentioned spiritual ideas. I don't disagree with that at all. Spirituality can exist outside the confines of religion.

But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong. The atheist ideology (if you can call it that) exists only in the negative of religion. That is what I mean by 'oppose'.
It's to state that you don't believe there is those things, because there's no evidence for it. It shouldn't be a proclamation that there definitely isn't a possibility.
 

Hyams

Member
Not at all. I'm an atheist, but I don't actively go around shitting on other people's beliefs. People can believe what they like as far as I'm concerned, my only issue is that they respect other people's rights to do likewise.

I never said anything about 'shitting on other people's beliefs'.

When a Jew/Christian/Muslim tells someone that they are a Jew/Christian/Muslim, they are saying they believe in God/Jesus/Mohammed.

When an Atheist tells someone that they are an Atheist, they are saying they disbelieve in religion.

That is what I mean by Atheism existing in opposition to Theism.
 
Well when you start a conversation like that...

You honestly believe that Unitarians and fundamentalists have identical ideology?

They share (not exactly but broadly) a fundamental ideology (the values, the philosophy) but the dogma is different (the rules, the authority and the practice). This is why you can point to them and say well it's christianity of sorts, but inherently different.
 

Hyams

Member
It's to state that you don't believe there is those things, because there's no evidence for it. It shouldn't be a proclamation that there definitely isn't a possibility.

I agree. I took that bit for granted, given we're talking about belief systems.
 

Metrotab

Banned
Because that makes zero sense....

I hate racism but you know I have no problem with people who are racist....

Come on.

I dislike religion intensely, not only Islam, but I have no general problem with people who are religious. (I do have a problem when these people want to force their religious ideas, practices and ideology on others.)

Makes sense to me.
 

Hyams

Member
Is the term anti-theist completely redundant to you?

I'll bite. How should I identify in your view if I want to say I don't believe in God, but am also exist in a state of complete and utter apathy to the existence of religion. Is that not just atheism to you?

I've never actually seen anyone use the phrase anti-Theist. I wouldn't want to use it myself, unless to describe someone who was bigoted towards religious people, which is what the term seems to imply.

I'd call you an Atheist. To actively declare a religion is wrong - which is ultimately what you're doing when you identify as an Atheist - is an innately oppositional act, even if you're apathetic towards the ongoing existence of that religion.
 
They share (not exactly but broadly) a fundamental ideology (the values, the philosophy) but the dogma is different (the rules, the authority and the practice). This is why you can point to them and say well it's christianity of sorts, but inherently different.

I mean they clearly don't really share the same values, for example Unitarians are incredibly open to LGBT folk and Fundamentalists you know really don't.

And that's just one example, and that's not a difference in practice, it's an inherent difference in what they value and what they believe the bible says.
 

Kadayi

Banned
I never said anything about 'shitting on other people's beliefs'.

and yet here you are...

But to state that you're an Atheist is to state that there is no god or gods, that religion is wrong

You don't need to be opposed to religion to be an atheist, you just need have some comprehension of the sheer enormity of the universe and how utterly insignificant we are in it. The idea that a god (or gods) would seemingly not even put us at the centre of the universe is in itself an alarm bell, in fact, we're not even in the centre of the Milky way.
 
I mean they clearly don't really share the same values, for example Unitarians are incredibly open to LGBT folk and Fundamentalists you know really don't.

And that's just one example, and that's not a difference in practice, it's an inherent difference in what they value and what they believe the bible says.

Some Unitarians, including myself, don't even believe in the Bible. Unitarian Universalism is less about creating a wrote dogma, and more creating a unifying umbrella for all beliefs. A sort of middle ground. It does have its roots in Christianity, but it's removed itself so far that it can be considered something different.
 
Some Unitarians, including myself, don't even believe in the Bible. Unitarian Universalism is less about creating a wrote dogma, and more creating a unifying umbrella for all beliefs. A sort of middle ground. It does have its roots in Christianity, but it's removed itself so far that it can be considered something different.

I was speaking of the Unitarian churches that still root themselves through Christianity, not Unitarian Univeralists.. of which I am one.

Side note: I wish I knew that some UU's sometimes drop the Universalist from their name.... makes things confusing lol.

Edit: Actually think I meant to speak more of The United Church.... So many Us

And apparently United is a Canadian only thing so huh go figure... It's one of our biggest Christian religions though.
 
and yet here you are...



You don't need to be opposed to religion to be an atheist, you just need have some comprehension of the sheer enormity of the universe and how utterly insignificant we are in it. The idea that a god (or gods) would seemingly not even put us at the centre of the universe is in itself an alarm bell, in fact, we're not even in the centre of the Milky way.

Is it shitting on someone's belief to say that the Earth was not created in 6 days?
 

Hyams

Member
and yet here you are...



You don't need to be opposed to religion to be an atheist, you just need have some comprehension of the sheer enormity of the universe and how utterly insignificant we are in it. The idea that a god (or gods) would seemingly not even put us at the centre of the universe is in itself an alarm bell, in fact, we're not even in the centre of the Milky way.

I wonder if I'm not expressing myself very well, because I don't think there's really that much of a disagreement between us.

To be an Atheist is to believe that religion is incorrect.

To therefore say you're an Atheist is to say (however implicitly) that you believe religion is incorrect.

I don't consider that to be shitting over peoples beliefs.

Edit: I notice that where you quoted me, I said 'to state that you're an Atheist ... is to state that religion is wrong'.

By 'wrong' I mean 'incorrect', not 'morally bad'. Perhaps that is where the confusion between us is coming from.
 
and yet here you are...



You don't need to be opposed to religion to be an atheist, you just need have some comprehension of the sheer enormity of the universe and how utterly insignificant we are in it. The idea that a god (or gods) would seemingly not even put us at the centre of the universe is in itself an alarm bell, in fact, we're not even in the centre of the Milky way.

I think it's simple in that the word atheism was born in opposition. Religious belief in god is the reference.
 
I was speaking of the Unitarian churches that still root themselves through Christianity, not Unitarian Univeralists.. of which I am one.

Side note: I wish I knew that some UU's sometimes drop the Universalist from their name.... makes things confusing lol.

Edit: Actually think I meant to speak more of The United Church.... So many Us

The United Church? Is that an off-shoot or something? Or more of its own thing?

Edit: ah, seems to be its own thing.
 

televator

Member
Ah, so you're anti-Atheism. I'm not sure if that makes you a bigot or not.

Atheism exists in opposition to religion. If religion wasn't a thing, 'Atheism' wouldn't be a word.

This is wrong. What you describe is more along the lines of anti theism. Atheism is not exclusively a position against any religion. It can be a neutral position where you just don't have any inclination toward any religion.
 
I wonder if I'm not expressing myself very well, because I don't think there's really that much of a disagreement between us.

To be an Atheist is to believe that religion is incorrect.

To therefore say you're an Atheist is to say (however implicitly) that you believe religion is incorrect.

I don't consider that to be shitting over peoples beliefs.

Wouldn't it be better go say, that Atheists believe the theistic view of god (the god of religion) is incorrect? (The one that creates commandments and intervenes in the affair of man?)
 

felipeko

Member
I wonder if I'm not expressing myself very well, because I don't think there's really that much of a disagreement between us.

To be an Atheist is to believe that religion is incorrect.

To therefore say you're an Atheist is to say (however implicitly) that you believe religion is incorrect.

I don't consider that to be shitting over peoples beliefs.
Atheism, the word, was created in opposition to theism. Atheism, the position, is the default position in the lack of evidence, and existed before theism.

Also, to be atheist is not to say any religion is wrong, is just to say that you do not believe any religion has enough evidence of a god. Atheists have no beliefs if religions are correct or not, they believe that religions make proclamations that they don't prove.
 

Hyams

Member
This is wrong. What you describe is more along the lines of anti theism. Atheism is not exclusively a position against any religion. It can be a neutral position where you just don't have any inclination toward any religion.

You either believe there is a god/gods (Theism), disbelieve in that (Atheism) or you simply don't know and can't decide (Agnostism).

Disbelieving is innately oppositional, even if you as an individual is apathetic towards religion.
 
I mean they clearly don't really share the same values, for example Unitarians are incredibly open to LGBT folk and Fundamentalists you know really don't.

And that's just one example, and that's not a difference in practice, it's an inherent difference in what they value and what they believe the bible says.

The values relate to the core beliefs. For example both believe in the concept of sin, both believe in variations on jesus' divinity/resurrection and the god of abraham, they believe that good works lead to a life after death.

Dogma is how those values are applied. This isn't my opinion, this is how it is and was drilled into me from a fairly young age by my catholic education (which was surprisingly philosophical about the concept of religion in general and gave us plenty of access to other religions).

My degree was related to Joseph Campbell and the Monomyth, we can go down that road too if anyone is feeling dangerous and wants to learn about the coolest thing ever thought.
 

felipeko

Member
You either believe there is a god/gods (Theism), disbelieve in that (Atheism) or you simply don't know and can't decide (Agnostism).

Disbelieving is innately oppositional, even if you as an individual is apathetic towards religion.
You can believe there are gods (theism), believe that there are no gods (anti-theism), and don't believe that there are gods (atheism).

You can also proclaim to know that your position is correct (gnosticism) or don't know (agnosticism)
 
The values relate to the core beliefs. For example both believe in the concept of sin, both believe in variations on jesus' divinity, they believe that good works lead to a life after death.

Dogma is how those values are applied. This isn't my opinion, this is how it is and was drilled into me from a fairly young age by my catholic education (which was surprisingly philosophical about the concept of religion in general and gave us plenty of access to other religions).

I mean ok but that's such skeletal similarities...
 
I mean ok but that's such skeletal similarities...

It's almost as if it's all a load of bollocks anyway

Comparative mythology is super super cool. If you have any interest in this sort of stuff, even for the sake of being a massive lefty, it explains a lot about people, history and the world.
 

Hyams

Member
You can believe there are gods (theism), believe that there are no gods (anti-theism), and don't believe that there are gods (atheism).

You can also proclaim to know that your position is correct (gnosticism) or don't know (agnosticism)

I don't see much of a distinction between believing there are no gods and disbelieving in gods.

I fear I've dragged us way off topic, however, so I'll drop my debating of this subject at this point.
 
It's almost as if it's all a load of bollocks anyway

Comparative mythology is super super cool. If you have any interest in this sort of stuff, even for the sake of being a massive lefty, it explains a lot about people, history and the world.

Well that's one way to end the conversation heh.

Mythology is fascinating... I actually do need to just start reading some more stuff on it.
 
Sort of hard to take their condemnation too seriously with the overly accusatory and hostile tone they take. Moreover their are a lot of allusions to their being holes in his story with only a few seemingly superfluous examples given along with attacking his motivations as being self-promotion as if they can read his thoughts. What a terrible article, who was this supposed to convince?
 

felipeko

Member
I don't see much of a distinction between believing there are no gods and disbelieving in gods.

I fear I've dragged us way off topic, however, so I'll drop my debating of this subject at this point.
So let's say i tell you: believe me, i am Bill Gates.

You have three options:
a) Believe i am Bill Gates
b) Believe i am not Bill Gates
c) Do not believe i am Bill Gates, because you have no sufficient proof, but you would be happy to be proven otherwise

The same applies to believing in God, you also have three options:
a) Believe God exists
b) Believe God does not exists
c) Do not believe God exists, because you have no sufficient proof, but you would be happy to be proven otherwise
 
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