Those aren't supposed to solve the problems migrant crisis brings us. People say those things so that others realize we can't start hating certain groups of people because certain individuals do horrible things. We don't condemn all Finnish people when a single Finn decides to do an horrible attack.
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apparent terror attack happening where i just left, hands shaking
- Thread starter astroturfing
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Those aren't supposed to solve the problems migrant crisis brings us. People say those things so that others realize we can't start hating certain groups of people because certain individuals do horrible things. We don't condemn all Finnish people when a single Finn decides to do an horrible attack.
People are right to hate the policies and policy makers that enabled this to happen, though. If you start from Morocco and end up in Finland, you aren't a refugee but an economic migrant and shouldn't have been let in in the first place.
ClosingADoor
Member
I think we agree, because my response was that there is nothing against "EU principles" (whatever they may be) to stop taking in so much immigration in the way we currently do.
If it was about principles, we wouldn't have looked the other way when Greece and Italy were yelling for years about the problems they faced. It only became a thing for the EU when the migration started to impact other countries.
So I disagreed with the the other poster, who said we should accept this as the new normal because we have principles.
Chittagong
Gold Member
A couple of years back, when the migrant crisis started, and was accelerated by Sipila inviting refugees to live in his home, and Merkel announcing open borders, we had a few heated arguments about it here at GAF.
The three main lines arguments I remember being had here:
1 - "Many of the immigrants are not from crisis areas, and are economic migrants". This was rejected as racist. We now know that this is the case, very few immigrants are from Syria, and in this case the attacker was from Morocco, not a crisis area.
2 - "Radicalised young men will slip into the country among the flow of migrants." This was rejected as a racist myth. We now know this was the case, a radicalised young man just stabbed people to death in a terrorist attack.
3 - "Finland will see its share of terror attacks." This was rejected as racist and fear mongering. Now that the first terror attack has happened, people have shifted their narrative to the attacks being 'inevitable' and 'expected'.
Recently I have been called a dumbass for questioning the Finnish interpretation of laws and treaties allowing a Moroccan roam free as a refugee from a peaceful country, even after the application for asylum was rejected. Now the narrative has changed to that it's simply the way it has to be, that attacks are an inevitable consequence of noble principles. Nothing to discuss.
I think the people quick to call anyone trying to have a meaningful discussion a 'racist' or 'dumbass' should now reflect their own views from a few years back, and consider having a more open mind and engaging in critical discussion. Not everyone unwilling to unquestionably support open borders is a racist.
Wrestlemania
Banned
You mean the threads where you said things like:
Current figures:
http://tilastokeskus.fi/til/muutl/2016/muutl_2016_2017-05-17_tie_001_en.html
Forgive me for thinking you might not be representing the arguments from the other side particularly accurately. Having just quickly looked through a couple of those old threads, there's not an awful lot of accusations of racism being thrown around. Those threads from 2015 are an embarrassment. It is not surprising to see which side of the argument has the most grey names these days, and egging people on to go trawling through them to see what was being said probably isn't going to work out too well.
Here's another good one:
Yeah, just look at these "embarrassingly mainstream" AfD polling numbers:
ClosingADoor
Member
It's important to have a level head about this. Too many people on both sides are throwing around exaggerations in their arguments. No, Finland will not be flooded with immigrants by the hundreds of thousands. But yes, there are more then before, and because immigrants tend to stick together in the cities, it will look like more to the average person living there.
No, neo-nazi's are not going to be accepted. But yes, issues like this will contribute to a rise of right-wing immigration politics. A balance needs to be found there between "let everyone in who comes knocking" and "turn everyone away and deport all the foreigners".
As for Chittagongs argument, it was a bit the same here in Holland. We had public broadcasters organize refugee nights on tv, celebrities calling for more help and the narrative that these Syrian refugees would be more highly educated and adapt easier. Then you had the people on the other side going anti-Muslim.
So what is a critic of immigration in the middle to do? You don't agree with one side, you don't want to be grouped with the nutjobs on the other. And because media tend to favor a nice "us vs them" debate you can see which gets the coverage. The fact that it is already called the "other side" when this should be a regular political debate like many other issues is telling about the emotions surrounding it.
It's a tough issue. I hope we can finally work something out with the African nations, to give people there a safe and legal path to move their families to Europe when needed, while stopping to ferry mostly young men over into Greece, Italy and Spain through smugglers. There is not that much problem with immigration if it is handled correctly. But when you bring in young men - which are a risk group anywhere for crime and radicalization -, throw them into the asylum procedure for years with nothing to do and then don't even deport them when rejecting their application, this is a recipe for disaster.
No, neo-nazi's are not going to be accepted. But yes, issues like this will contribute to a rise of right-wing immigration politics. A balance needs to be found there between "let everyone in who comes knocking" and "turn everyone away and deport all the foreigners".
As for Chittagongs argument, it was a bit the same here in Holland. We had public broadcasters organize refugee nights on tv, celebrities calling for more help and the narrative that these Syrian refugees would be more highly educated and adapt easier. Then you had the people on the other side going anti-Muslim.
So what is a critic of immigration in the middle to do? You don't agree with one side, you don't want to be grouped with the nutjobs on the other. And because media tend to favor a nice "us vs them" debate you can see which gets the coverage. The fact that it is already called the "other side" when this should be a regular political debate like many other issues is telling about the emotions surrounding it.
It's a tough issue. I hope we can finally work something out with the African nations, to give people there a safe and legal path to move their families to Europe when needed, while stopping to ferry mostly young men over into Greece, Italy and Spain through smugglers. There is not that much problem with immigration if it is handled correctly. But when you bring in young men - which are a risk group anywhere for crime and radicalization -, throw them into the asylum procedure for years with nothing to do and then don't even deport them when rejecting their application, this is a recipe for disaster.
Audioboxer
Member
Pretty much. If there's one thing which can "unite" genuinely reasonable left and right voters it's at least acknowledging "we have an incredibly serious problem with young men". Honestly, go and find me a terrorist attack in Europe carried out by a woman. I'm not saying you won't find one, but the waves of attacks in the last 10~15 years star mostly men. It's largely always been like this, even terrorism before Islamic terrorism rose up the charts. Men are often the aggressors. Therefore, ANY country should air caution when it comes to freely letting in masses of single men without at least vetting/interviewing properly.
Heck, issues we have with the far-right mostly star... men. As I've said at length in this and other topics a lot of the fundamentalists we have in Christianity/Catholicism and you can include the far-right here, act through speech, insults/racism, protest and being fucking cretins on social media. There aren't that many terrorist attacks being carried out in the name of Christianity, or the EDL. We had a terrorist attack in the UK recently with a van that was a far-right terrorist, and the murder of Jo Cox was too. The greater proportion of young men carrying out terrorist attacks though, either tend to have come from patriarchal and violent Islamic countries or they are radicalised by fundamentalist Islamic doctrine taught on home soil/from online. My "armchair" analysis which I've said in a few other posts is martyrdom is playing a role here. Low-status males wanting to "become heroes" and "buy themselves" favour with the fundamentalist teaching of the God they expect to be waiting on them once they're martyred. They genuinely seem to believe killing the heretics gets them favour or builds up status for their journey into the afterlife. When people genuinely get indoctrinated to believe things like this, some will act out.
The issue tangled up within the refugee crisis is that whether people want to talk about it or not individuals and groups of men, some directly at the command of ISIS seemingly, are indeed using the free movement of immigration to get into countries to plan attacks. That doesn't account for homegrown terrorism, it's simply one way in which we are facing some issues. Countries should be prioritising women, children and families well before single males. That's not racist or sexist, it's tactically 'common sense' during times like this where there is an ongoing crisis. The nuance involved here is seriously in-depth, including the requirement of analysis of stats, criminology, risk-factors, economic-factors, safety and precautions and more. Some seem to think because all of that is out of their sight and not their responsibility the arguments and debate around all of this is one or two camps "pro-immigration" or "anti-immigration". That itself is a fundamentalist viewpoint to a complex matter, and it damn well goes a way to breeding the nonsense we see on the far-right, but yes, some of the nonsense we see on the left too (hyper-defensive, unable to discuss anything, accusations galore).
Part of the way to dismantle the far-rights rise in popularity is to be able to be honest and think critically regardless of what they are spouting. Some people seem to think if the far-right talks about something then it instantly becomes a bogeyman that is off the table. Those people talk about it? Gosh, we better not, don't want anyone thinking we're far-right for talking about something they are. It should be about how you talk about issues, not if you can. That is highly offensive to suggest you have to self-censor because nasty people might be talking about something. An embarrassing failing of rational thinking. Lead by example when you discuss highly sensitive, but complex matters, but don't just stay silent because you're afraid to speak. THAT is partially what empowers the far-right, people staying silent. When voids are created in public discourse because topics become taboo or bogeyman issues, it will always be filled by further hard-line political discourse. That then begins to influence 'ordinary' people and indoctrinate them to become more fundamental or head further right. Or, as demonstratable all throughout Europe, you see big spikes in voting for far-right parties.
Chittagong
Gold Member
You mean the threads where you said things like:
Current figures:
http://tilastokeskus.fi/til/muutl/2016/muutl_2016_2017-05-17_tie_001_en.html
I don't think the 200,000 figure was off base. You can see the immigration hit 35,000 in 2015 from your graph and was trending upwards towards 50,000 a year. 200,000 would have been easily hit in 5 years. The public outcry forced the introduction of roadblocks like the CPH-Malmo checks that curbed that inflow.
The comment seems accurate to me. When I commented AfD was polling around 5%. As you can see from the graph you posted yourself, they hit almost 15% a year later, which I would class as 'embarrassingly mainstream'. Nearly as much as SDP has in Finland now. After the stricter immigration measures were put in place their popularity collapsed.
Just for avoidance of doubt, I support humanitarian refugees, who are properly vetted and prioritised at closest point to the conflict zone where it is safe to do so, and introduced at preagreed quotas the society can properly support and integrate. I oppose opening borders to unvetted economic migrants from unknown origins trafficked by the mafia at whatever quantities they please, prioritising people who pay more than people from conflict zones, who are actually in need of asylum.
Airola
Member
Don't you realize that they are only talking to the extreme racists with that? To those who condemns all muslims for this.
There are countless of people who don't think like that but would want something to be done with the problem. To those ears that type of comments only sound really condescending and to be frank, really awful, careless and shitty.
It's as if people are using this situation as ammunition in their fight against the groups they oppose. And when it looks like they try to shift the attention from the asshole who did this to the racists, it seems like there is no real will to really come forward at all and do something about the problem. Just because some aspects of solving the problem might mean that they have to agree on something with the racists doesn't mean that aspect of solving the problem is wrong.
EDIT:
We might as well go back in history as far as when the first person ever was killed to say "well people have murdered people before."
As if we don't know others murder people too. We certainly know we have had school shootings by Finnish boys. We certainly know people have gone in a killing spree before. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whoever kills people later. We have already become numb to the regular types of murders that happen in Finland. Would it be better to become numb to these kinds of attacks too? We have our own problems with mental health and alcohol and whatever else. We don't really need another form of violence and terrorism on top of that, especially when it's something that could've and should've been stopped.
Now I might be biased because it happened close to me in a place I frequently walk through with my girlfriend, but the reality is that this has now happened and it was something that people either feared that was going to happen at some point or swept under the rug laughing that it's just fear mongering. Even when I thought something like this would someday happen in Finland, I never thought it would happen first in this city. This is something that does not need to be normalized in any way.
That chart clearly shows that it was.
Onlinehero
Member
Unless people frequently call you a dumbass, I believe I pointed out the dumbass tendencies in your conspiracy theory, before proceeding to point out how it's very unlikely. Here's a quote where you accuse "migration friendly" parties of being in it to profit from migrants (though you used refugees, implying people actually in need of protection).
That was before you said you didn't want to derail the thread further.
CampbellzSoup
Member
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-stabbing-idUSKCN1AZ0A6
Was this one in Russia mentioned...??? It doesn't fucking end.
Was this one in Russia mentioned...??? It doesn't fucking end.
I know the chances of an attack affecting me are small, but this shit has creeped into my mind a bit. Just now I noticed that my city's (about 600km from Turku) central was barricaded by trucks so vehicles cannot enter... and I saw police officers standing there with rifles in hand (something you very seldom see in finland).
Felt like turning aroung and skip going to the city centre.
Felt like turning aroung and skip going to the city centre.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
This is the problem we have in Denmark too. It's very much home grown terrorism, spread by a group of young males who pass it down to the kids. Kids whose parents don't speak the language(or english) or have any formal education. They congregate in affordable housing areas and don't assimilate or integrate and drop out of school. And then all of a sudden, you have a systemic racial underclass, with these guys being full of hate and allowed to spread their hate using our democratic pillars.
People don't know what to do, because of the free speech issue. The antisemitism and anti-LGBT is repulsive. And these young angry men, who aren't real muslims, but radicalized Islamist are souring the relations with the hard working and decent muslim community.
It's really tough having parents with no formal education and then growing up in a country as a bilingual, having to learn a difficult language.
You need a college degree to even work in basic retail in Denmark, so without the support from home, you have lots of these young men who cannot keep up. And once they fall through school, they are dependent on social aid which live up the fears and stereotypes of immigrants coming to mooch and take advantage, as society becomes more and more unequal, housing prices destroys people and as we have more extremely poor people in Denmark than we've had in more than a 100 years.
The recession brought back the Quality of life for many hundreds of millions of Europeans, that hasn't been recouped, and so the thesis exists that there isn't enough money to take care of more immigrants and refugees, when the government increasingly take less and less care of the poor and unfortunate native populations.
Any psychologist started a debate a while back about that, the stereotype of the young, angry and hostile young muslim man comes from some of them having seen some real shit, and others having been beaten by their dad (as it's more of a cultural thing in some parts of the middle-east) and that, having a profound impact on them as they grow up. My good friend, Ahmed from Iraq has had severe depressions and anxiety disorders his entire life, that has kept him from having a normal life. He grew up seeing his dad beat his mom, as they themselves struggled with being Shia muslims who fled Iraq in 89' and came to Denmark via Kuwait.
The government cannot monitor what goes on in the home, and the fight between the right and left political parties here, is about how much can the government dictate what a immigrant/refugee should be forced to do; Should you be forced to learn the language? Should there be a cut off date for how long you can receive social aid? should women also be forced to take jobs even though it against the customs and wishes of some of the husbands? - When and where are you setting boundaries for "that is how we do things here, and this is the law" and overstepping on peoples personal preferences and culture.
But these difficult questions have not gotten anywhere as much play as the headwear debate or the halal debate, and that is something I don't understand.
Lastly, it's very very difficult to navigate around and figuring out how things actually are. If you ask the right wing media outlet, from the left-wing outlets it's completely different interpretations of the data. It's a lot less in your face propaganda than in America, but the biased undertones remains. So as a Dane, it's difficult to figure out if things are going in a positive or negative direction, as laws and regulations and measures have been passed since the migrant crisis was at its highest. I suspect it's similar elsewhere.
The anecdotal stories I hear from Belgium are shocking though. I've heard some real radicalized and extremist shit going on there, but that too is difficult to figure out, if it's hyperbole or not.
The Dutch Slayer
Member
This post is really good :O
Well said.
ClosingADoor
Member
Was linked earlier. Could just be ISIS claiming something. Russia hasn't released any details yet and are first looking into if it is someone with mental illness unrelated to terrorism.
Airola
Member
Yeah, it's kinda weird thing to see. Even without this attack, last June in the city I grew up in (I lived there for about 21 years and I've now lived in Turku for about 14 years or so) there were these concrete barricades and trucks put in front of the entrances to the hugely popular market they have once a year. It's a city of only 8,000-10,000 people so it feels as if there would be no need to prepare for anything like that.
So if before the attack even there seemed to be the need to be prepared just in case, the security must be even tighter after this attack. It really shows things have completely changed in this country.
And then there is of course the problem of how to protect the regufees from possible crimes against them. The city I mentioned has had its share of refugees last couple of years and those who I have met have been super polite and nice people. But the tension is there in the city. There actually have been some situations of sexual harassment and at least one actual rape, and that's been enough for some locals to claim they should all leave the city. I just wonder how the market next year might be for the innocent refugees now that the first actual terrorist attack has happened.
This just is a horrible situation for all, and something we have to learn to live with. The left and the right NEED to come forwards towards each other at least a step or two for this to ever resolve in any way. This division is what is creating monsters. The extreme left and their stance creates monsters in the extreme right and the extreme right with their stance creates monsters in the extreme left. And that hybrid of idiots, if not straight up create the terrorist monsters, at least enable their existence. Terrorists and their victims are pawns in their political game. That's how I feel about it.
Audioboxer
Member
Thanks for sharing the post, I don't think there's too much I'd add or say. What I would say is there are many pitfalls for any young men in society, especially those that do go and try and live abroad. Depression, anxiety and lots of mental health concerns may follow when men don't fit in, fail in education, fail in employment and so on. Some people will go down the paths of petty crime, or maybe end up turning to drugs and alcohol. This is often the same for many many many people though, they suffer in life, but they don't get locked up or get violent. Or if they do get locked up its for drugs, petty crime, stealing and so on. There are the men who are locked up for fighting/violence, but it's often with other men (gangs/social enemies), attacking their partners or other serious cases of assault. Micro-level concerns where it's outbursts within their immediate life and family, not creating bombs to blow up people/children they've never met.
Where we do have to be honest talking about issues with young men is realising terrorism on the scale of preparing, planning and going through with taking multiple lives, often that of complete strangers, is not the same MO of the young men who end up jailed or in trouble with the law for assault on people they know. As the saying goes in most cases of murder it comes via someone who knew the deceased. That's maybe not the case for certain serial killers, but even a lot of them are on a different tangent than a terrorist.
What I'm trying to say is while a lot of social issues can lead to young men going down bad paths, having antisocial behaviour and so on, usually there needs to be an extra layer added on top for all of these issues to turn to terrorism. Such as blowing up children, hacking women to death and running over complete strangers. My thesis is in at least a decent proportion of these cases I believe the doctrine taught first of all aids in the hatred (such as hating women or hating non-believers or heretics), but then on top of that if you bring in martyrdom to the cause that's another layer of why multiple men are acting "fearless" to march to their death whilst trying to take out as many lives as possible on the way.
Brilliant post and something I have witnessed here on this forum. The narrative always changing and few are willing to put their hands to and say "well, I got that really wrong"
According to a new interview with some people from the Moroccan community in Turku, he claimed to be a Palestinian when he was trying to get asylum as he knew that Moroccans wouldn't get it. The immigration agency wasn't fooled however.
Also, he stopped coming to the mosque most of them use about two months ago (but could've been going to some other mosque instead). Before that, he was withdrawn and silent but well behaved. After getting rejected for asylum he seemed like a man without his place in society.
Falsifying his country of origin and committing a terrorist act/act of mass violence. Now he just needs to have also claimed to have been underage to hit the whole trifecta.
Also, he stopped coming to the mosque most of them use about two months ago (but could've been going to some other mosque instead). Before that, he was withdrawn and silent but well behaved. After getting rejected for asylum he seemed like a man without his place in society.
Falsifying his country of origin and committing a terrorist act/act of mass violence. Now he just needs to have also claimed to have been underage to hit the whole trifecta.
jts
...hate me...
Live in Finland but never been to Turku. This attack happened just hours after I landed in Helsinki. Had people sending me messages of worry but it's not like it's a civil war going on, I couldn't even tell this happened if not for the news. These things can happen anywhere and seem to be as statistically likely as any other freak accident.
My heart is out for the victims and families from this and other attacks and tragic accidents, but fuck even giving a second thought about what you do in fear of these coward pricks.
My heart is out for the victims and families from this and other attacks and tragic accidents, but fuck even giving a second thought about what you do in fear of these coward pricks.
Bustanen
Member
Well there are Facebook images going around that are apparently taken in 2013 and him having a full grown beard...
He was also tipped to the authorities months ago but surprise surprise the police did fucking nothing. https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/police_supo_received_tip_about_radicalized_turku_suspect_in_early_2017/9788177
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, but it's the same issue echoed in the UK (and likely more European countries)
Watchlists are full of people, not enough staff and all it takes is one or a handful of people out of everyone they're trying to monitor to act out.
The reports on the numbers of people monitored alone should be spoken about more openly because it highlights the extents of the issues European countries are facing with extremism and terrorism. The authorities don't always like to release the figures but more of them are having to as the public ends up enraged terrorists aren't being stopped.
In the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...-exist-in-the-uk-and-how-is-it-used-by-police
These aren't small numbers of people, but attacks do get prevented
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...wolf-low-tech-car-truck-vehicle-a7645221.html
However, many people seem to keep chalking these attacks up to one or two bad apples, failing to understand watchlists are brimming with people and this is why when an attack does occur the often said "he was known to authorities" is wheeled out.
Chittagong
Gold Member
More information has emerged about the suspects today.
DW reports that main suspect is a Moroccan named Abderrahman Mechkahilla. He arrived illegally to Germany in 2015, and continued to Finland. He was reported to the authorities in Finland as someone who has been radicalised with extreme islam.
HS reports today that one of the other suspects is a Moroccan man, who was found guilty in 2016 of forcing a disabled person to a sexual act by violating her. The crime happened after the man had found the disabled woman distressed after being earlier molested by another Moroccan man, who also violated her, and forced her to touch his penis.
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-200000...-other&share=3b177eab2470bf94893fd96b40a16758
DW reports that main suspect is a Moroccan named Abderrahman Mechkahilla. He arrived illegally to Germany in 2015, and continued to Finland. He was reported to the authorities in Finland as someone who has been radicalised with extreme islam.
HS reports today that one of the other suspects is a Moroccan man, who was found guilty in 2016 of forcing a disabled person to a sexual act by violating her. The crime happened after the man had found the disabled woman distressed after being earlier molested by another Moroccan man, who also violated her, and forced her to touch his penis.
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-200000...-other&share=3b177eab2470bf94893fd96b40a16758
astroturfing
Member
well thats nice. what a wonderful bunch. ugh, and im mere meters away from the fucker right now in TYKS... he better get well ASAP so he can hauled the fuck out of here.
Audioboxer
Member
Fucksake, disgusting... If it's not terrorist attacks from these radicals it's calculated sexual assault of women and girls. We've got enough of that going on in the UK too.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Just to be clear, the main suspect was not involved in the sexual abuse case, it was one of the other suspects.
Bustanen
Member
Just shows how ridiculous our system is. Why were the fuckers not deported right away once they got caught doing this shit.
CampbellzSoup
Member
Unreal that report...
astroturfing
Member
well, apparently there's plenty of room for improvement at least!
yeah i know.
There are still people who claim that Russia and far-right news outlets like Breitbart, RT, Infowars etc. are directly responsible for the rise of right-wing parties and that Europe has no problem with illegal immigration and whoever says something else is a racist.
And yet Europe will, like a religious fanatic, continue to dogmatically cling to its "values" and policies instead of admitting that doing so has enabled terrorists to bring death and destruction onto its streets. It seems these people are free to just run around Europe largely undisturbed by authority. They must be laughing at the ease of it all.
Right now, security forces are pursuing one of the Barcelona attackers who has managed to slip into France. I don't believe Europe is taking the terror threat seriously as it should; if they were they wouldn't have so many dangerous young men freely running around the continent. It feels as if Europe still hasn't really woken up to the threat.
I mean how can European governments still continue to be so lax regarding the people entering their countries given the current climate? Perhaps they will only wake up if a European attack on the scale of 9/11 happens. I have a sneaking feeling that these small attacks: 7 deaths here 15 deaths there do not register because they are visually unspectacular and have "low" body counts.
The masses do their public grieving and move on to waiting for the next one where they will repeat the same ritual. Here already in the UK, the conversation has already moved on to Big Ben being silenced for 4 years. By the end of next week Barcelona and Finland will be forgotten. Such attacks are now treated as if they are natural disasters: "awful and unfortunate for those involved, but nothing's really changed so life goes on."
Audioboxer
Member
The rise of the far-right is definitely in part due to the websites, newspapers and social media resharing. However, a reason it's becoming such a popular and lucrative trade for the morally bankrupt websites and owners peddling a lot of it is the intellectual void being created as left-leaning people/websites/newspapers/media become incredibly paranoid about getting involved in these conversations (people will call us far-right! people will call us racist! people will say we hate all immigrants!). The right is taking advantage of said fears and screaming at people that the left is abandoning them, ignoring them and won't talk about anything, so listen to us, we're here for the people and so begins the cycle of attracting people and then influencing/indoctrinating them. Conspiracy theories are often what people go to when there is no clear authority figure talking (Government/police/etc) or widespread intellectual discussion about complex and difficult situations.
Heck, you'll find more in-depth discussion and debate on GAF at times than what is fed to the average people on the news about the sex rings or extremists/terrorist attacks and what could be causing the people behind them to radicalise and act out. The amount of ignorance and dumb takes on things apparent from many opening their mouth in public is downright depressing. The mainstream media often fails to educate sufficiently, but then again, so do the Government and politicians that are more scared about their voting numbers/popularity than to talk openly and honestly. Sometimes Governments being incredibly coy because to admit any sort of "blame" for their mishandling of things ends up with them worrying more about the next election. People are dying, heck children are dying, so sorry, this isn't about your election voting numbers but you taking responsibility, and explaining what is going on and what you plan to do. Otherwise, yeah, those far right parties DO start getting more votes and rising in popularity. It's hard work trying to be the side with morals that takes the high road, but tough, that should never mean you compromise on intellectual honesty, facts and critical thinking.
ClosingADoor
Member
What the hell. Why are these people walking around free? Lock em up. Two sexual assaults in a row, and this other dude was still walking?
At this point it is against our principles and values to have people like that walking around free. Lives being ruined because criminals are simply not being separated from the society they clearly are not fit to walk around in.
It really is starting to look like a free for all. I am all for open EU borders. You should be traveling from Portugal to Finland with no problem at all. But the outer borders need to be secured. And once people are here, we need to make sure they adapt.
Instead we got kids in primary school already being radicalized and calling other kids pigs and unbelievers, making death threats, and their parents supporting that. I can't anymore with this stuff. Police can't handle crime, you are being turned away from reporting things, politics don't address anything about this, and meanwhile everyone is surprised people are voting more right wing.
Yeah, a different guy was interviewed and he gave a completely different picture. Vulgar and acted abnormally. Seemed interested in extremist materials.
Maybe his countrymen were just covering for him or something. They did arrest other Moroccans as well.
Could be that a lot of those tips are just bullshit, which they probably are to be honest. Either way, the police will get shit on social media. Either accused of ethnic profiling and labeled as racist or accused as morons and enabling terrorists.
Plenty of people said this would happen when you take in too many people with not enough resources or an pragmatic plan for this process. Im not going to go down the crime statistics rabbit hole,(everyone can search for those and see for themselves) but in light of recent happenings i don't think the harm that the current population will be put through is the better option than not taking the altruistic moral high road.
I know it sounds defeatist, but I think Europe's had it. We'll see more of these attacks as Islam expands through out Europe (a growing population means a greater chance of more "bad apples" emerging, and we all know it only takes a determined few to pull off an attack). Europeans don't seem to understand that these terrorists are exploiting Europe's broad liberal values and using it to advance their goals.
We can all sit here and try to come up with solutions, but it's pointless as long as Europe continues to behave as it does in response to this growing threat. If Europe continues to import thousands of undocumented young men who have no desire to integrate into its countries, can it really be surprised when a few of them turn out to be terrorists? Europe already has many integration problems, yet it continues to import more low-grade young men from Islamic nations and by doing so it is deliberately making things worse. When the landscape and the nature of the threat changes, it is simply ridiculous to continue doing things the same way. It just reminds me of the religious fanatic who clings to his beliefs even when they are self-destructive.
That's why I really think it will take a mass casualty terror event where the body count is in the thousands for Europe to take a more robust stance towards the threat of Islamic terrorism. These unspectacular attacks with body counts in the ten simply no longer register. It just gets lumped in with all the similar attacks that have occured across Europe.
It's just not taken as seriously as it it should be and I think that's why people frequently bring up bygone terror threats - "it was worse in the old days and we overcame it" or silly comparisons: car accidents, bee stings, or falling down the stairs to downplay things. The Islamic terror threat is a different beast. It is underpinned by a global religion and because of this it is allowed to advance in a way that a straight-up death cult would not be able to; it is simply not going to go away even if groups like ISIL are defeated.
The terror watch lists will continue to grow and it will become increasingly harder for security services to stay on top of. As a result, more bad apples will manage to slip through the net and we'll see more terrorism on our TV screens. It's a real mess all round.
Airola
Member
Yeah, some are, some aren't.
However, in an interview with a chief police when asked about whether they know about others who might be wanting to make an attack, the police said they have been able to prevent many attacks and there even has been some very close calls. I'm sure this contains possible school shooters also, but there are situations where terrorism like this has been planned but has been prevented.
When asked if they know about any bigger terrorist groups planning anything he said all of them have been these "lone wolves", but personally I think the police wouldn't say it if there was a bigger group they knew about. It would ruin their investigation on them.
So yeah, the police are in a tough spot with these. On the other hand they have been able to stop massacres like this but when one gets through it feels as if they don't do anything. It's not an easy job, that's for sure.
ClosingADoor
Member
I agree that the liberal values of Europe are being abused to spread hatred and such. We see it with a ton of things. From Islamic terrorism to far right hatred (the nazi's in Sweden recently come to mind). And while it is a tough call to crack down on it because you don't want to overdo it, some balance needs to be found here. Same with our prison system. I get it, we don't want to put people away like the US does, but at the moment, in a lot of countries the justice system is seen a joke by both criminals and victims - see one of the guys in Finland being free after sexual assault. Again, the balance seems off. And this is with a lot of things. Hence the rise of the right wing parties, because even if they don't fix anything, at least they call it out and tell people something needs to be done.
As for immigration, we will probably see Western Europe looking the other way while others clean up the mess. We saw it with Hungary. A lot of people were complaining about them putting up a fence. Bulgaria is doing the exact same thing a bit later, not a peep in the media about it. We are letting other countries deal with it, while we in the West can pretend to keep the moral high ground. Same with Northern Africa. We are paying off Mali, Chad, Niger and others there to stop migration because we know those countries don't play by the same rules we do when going about it. It's hypocritical as hell of course.
Maybe this is getting a bit off topic. But it really seems European countries need to start acting a bit less naive when dealing with these things and start cracking down on these things, because I'm afraid there will be a point the people have had enough and either elect a lunatic or we start seeing (racial) violence going up and hurting innocents.
hurricanes
Member
Why is he allowed to roam free?!
I hope OP is okey and got away safely. Maybe you should get some mace ._. just in case.
It seems unreal when it happens where one lives.. its hard to be vigilant all the time, but one can try to keep a look out on suspicious people.
And by suspicious i mean just that, I don't care squat if the pk left starts lamenting about profiling. when ones lives are at stake, pc-ness can go out the window.
It seems unreal when it happens where one lives.. its hard to be vigilant all the time, but one can try to keep a look out on suspicious people.
And by suspicious i mean just that, I don't care squat if the pk left starts lamenting about profiling. when ones lives are at stake, pc-ness can go out the window.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Thats a great question
Gabriel_Logan
Member
If you change the names around this reads like the plot for a Dirty Harry movie. It's laughable.
Chittagong
Gold Member
In the aftermath of the attack, Finnish media has actually published one very good and analytical interview, speaking with Jihadism researcher Atte Kaleva. It's probably the best, most balanced article on the topic in Finnish mainstream media, to date:
http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/t...ia-rajoja-realismi-on-ollut-hakusessa-6671444
His key points
- The current Jihadist generation doing attacks will last for 15-20 more years
- The goal of the Jihadists is to transform the country to islamic, break down the society, and wake up westernised muslims
- Current asylum system is designed for a small amount of people arriving annually, it is too heavy for the current volumes
- Finland should track the immigrants whereabouts and identities, especially the ones who have been rejected asylum
- Optimal would be if asylum in Finland would be sought from outside Finland, not inside - because current model creates a huge market for human trafficking
- EU should build aid camps close to crisis zones, they could help a far larger amount of more vulnerable people
- At the camp, the asylum seekers would get training about Finnish society and language, and could show their commitment to Finland
- This would end the disgusting boat rally in the Mediterranean, and put traffickers out of business
- Macron is proposing such a plan, but unfortunately you get easily seen as far right for ideas like this
- It is very dangerous if the mainstream media refuses to discuss about this, it will be to the benefit of extreme right media, like MV
- The 'European Dream' of a borderless world has been an utopian project, needing a reality check
- Anyone warning about the risks of immigration has been labeled a racist, which has strengthened far right movements
No lies detected.
http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/t...ia-rajoja-realismi-on-ollut-hakusessa-6671444
His key points
- The current Jihadist generation doing attacks will last for 15-20 more years
- The goal of the Jihadists is to transform the country to islamic, break down the society, and wake up westernised muslims
- Current asylum system is designed for a small amount of people arriving annually, it is too heavy for the current volumes
- Finland should track the immigrants whereabouts and identities, especially the ones who have been rejected asylum
- Optimal would be if asylum in Finland would be sought from outside Finland, not inside - because current model creates a huge market for human trafficking
- EU should build aid camps close to crisis zones, they could help a far larger amount of more vulnerable people
- At the camp, the asylum seekers would get training about Finnish society and language, and could show their commitment to Finland
- This would end the disgusting boat rally in the Mediterranean, and put traffickers out of business
- Macron is proposing such a plan, but unfortunately you get easily seen as far right for ideas like this
- It is very dangerous if the mainstream media refuses to discuss about this, it will be to the benefit of extreme right media, like MV
- The 'European Dream' of a borderless world has been an utopian project, needing a reality check
- Anyone warning about the risks of immigration has been labeled a racist, which has strengthened far right movements
No lies detected.
ClosingADoor
Member
Points seem to be mostly right. Can't read the original article, since not Finnish. But I think the narrative that the mainstream media is not talking about this might be a bit outdated by now. At least in the wider European context. It's more that politicians now still don't really put forth plans about this, so the discussion doesn't happen.
Also don't think there ever was a dream for a borderless world. That is mostly a borderless Europe, which has been working fine until now. Maybe bit too quickly with adding some poorer Eastern European countries, but there haven't been that much trouble with it. It's the refusal of helping out Italy, Greece and now Spain with their border protection and having a unified system that is the problem there.
Seems right that his is a thing that will last a few more decades. And again two attacks on police by people with knifes, this time in Brussels and London. Really looks like this is going to a weekly occurrence at this rate.
I think naive is the wrong word, it now is more of a lack of willpower to do something about it. The administration of several countries need to be revamped to adapt to this and European administrations are now satisfied with letting another (EU) country deal with the problem. A revamp will cost money, time and trouble.
Audioboxer
Member
Did they say anything about the demographic almost, if not, exclusively being male? The Brussels knife attack is another male, as is London, but last night when I made a topic about Brussels I had only just caught the London knife attack and it said unknown if terrorism as of yet.
But yes, more politicians and leaders need to be open, honest, upfront and sensible about all of this. There's damn loss of life so it's not time to be playing a game of "optical concerns". I've said it a few times but part of the reason the far right is on the rise is them persuading citizens the Government isn't taking any of these attacks seriously and only they are. That's nonsense given the data stating the Government's are preventing terrorism and attacks behind the scenes, sometimes in double figures within months. There's literally hundreds if not thousands of people on watch lists. That should let anyone know the scale of the operations and concerns. However, there still is this irrational fear that to talk criminology, statistics and data on the attacks is inherently "racist". It's all about how you handle the stats and doing so with experts in the fields of counter terrorism speaking facts/experience.
Europe has a problem with terrorism in this day and age and there's no other way to parcel that proposition. Some countries in Europe have had problems with terrorism in years gone by, we're just facing a different threat than instances in the past. It is what it is, the way to move forward is to discuss the threat and try and focus on solutions and preventative work.
I wouldn't say weekly, but the rings and individuals seem to plan monthly. What the public doesn't always hear reminders of are the amount of attacks or actions the intelligence services and forces manage to stop. The attacks we largely hear about are those that get carried out in some form. If all attacks were successful, yeah, there would seemingly be non-stop cases of reporting on yet another attack. Credit is due in countries where the police and counterterrorism prevent loss of life, however, nearly every time an attack happens it's "he was known" followed up with "we can only watch a few hundred out of our lists of thousands at a time". Not enough resources and not handling those who are radicalised and likely to attack effectively enough.