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Wii U has 2GB of DDR3 RAM, [Up: RAM 43% slower than 360/PS3 RAM]

squidyj

Member
They weren't.

Newer than standard DDR3? Yes, they did say that. And yes it's true. Didn't see anything in the Abominable's post that alluded to it being any premium form. A little more costly sure.

Some people just need to take a step back and stop acting like everyone disagreeing the WiiU is uniformly weak and outdated is some crazy deluded Nintendo fan. It's really not a weak system.

Strangely designed from the norm? Definitely.

Comparable to the 6 year old efforts of Sony and MS? Duh.

But in no way is any of that weak. It wasn't last year, it won't be ten years from now. You'll still be able to create a title like Last of Us or Beyond on it. That is the likely ceiling. While that ceiling will continue to rise with newer more powerful hardware... how does that make the games that came before worthless or ugly?

It doesn't. The only time it has is in the N64 era. And that's back when you were lucky to achieve a character model of 800 polygons. Once you start getting well designed character models at 30,000 polygons with normals to simulate much higher poly counts it starts becoming much more difficult to create noticeably improved character models with more polies. Higher res normals would help much more.

Basic IQ? That can always be improved. And in this WiiU falls short. But I don't expect the most marvelous of endeavors in that arena on Orbis or Durango either. Resolution and Image Quality are always the first things sacrificed in console gaming. To free up resources for whatever is viewed as necessary.

So we all need to take a step back. I don't want to see anyone banned for going crazier than usual.

weak is a relative term and games I could happily play back in the day look ugly as sin today. So yes, I do think that a step up from Sony and MS is going to leave Wii titles looking "weak" thanks to the "weak" hardware on offer.
 
They weren't.

Newer than standard DDR3? Yes, they did say that. And yes it's true. Didn't see anything in the Abominable's post that alluded to it being any premium form. A little more costly sure.

That's exactly what he was doing in response to everyone talking about Nintendo choosing low cost memory.

Nintendo chose low power DDR components which are actually more expensive than faster, fullsize full voltage DDR chips.

The DDR3 in the Wii U is different. Its more akin to the RAM in your iPhone/iPad/Android equivalents.

they're smaller low-power, low heat, 'fast' chips. Not exactly the DDR3 that appears in your desktop.

And the fact is we don't know what Nintendo paid. We know they used at least 2 other vendors and neither the Hynix or Samsung parts imply there's anything special about them being "low power". The only thing specially about the RAM is it's not designed to overclock or overvolt well like a lot of the consumer grade stuff sold through Newegg. Other than that it is basically the cheapest RAM you can buy on the open market.
 
weak is a relative term and games I could happily play back in the day look ugly as sin today. So yes, I do think that a step up from Sony and MS is going to leave Wii titles looking "weak" thanks to the "weak" hardware on offer.
I've always been in the camp that new tech is awesome, but for the most part unnecessary. I mean there is an appreciable difference between Beyond and Watch_Dogs or UE4.

It's noticeable. But on the flip side I see the results of two entirely different classes of hardware and part of me says "So?" One is faking at a lower fidelity what the other does in realtime at much higher. But you're still working off the same plate. Just easier to achieve on the more powerful class of hardware.

This isn't the same era. What looks good today will look good in five years. Just dated. Development pipelines aren't changing. So there goes one way we normally see rapid advancement. Asset creation will be more or less identical (with a focus on higher fidelity than the modern norm).

I have always been able to see the differences... but the older I'm getting the less they make a substantive difference. For others that might be entirely different but I still look at Super Mario Galaxy and think "This is beautiful." Aside from the low res, and dithering brought on by using 1998 designs for the core hardware.
 

TheD

The Detective
Low power DDR3 is bog standard.
Used in a lot of things and nothing to write home about vs non low power DDR3 (other than it using a bit less power).
 

Instro

Member
Why does the Wii-U OS take up 1GB of ram?

Doesn't the PS3 only use something like 52mb?

It's worth noting that Sony had issues trying to optimize the PS3 OS because they did not portion enough RAM off. I would imagine that Nintendo going with a full GB is to give them plenty of breathing room as they optimize and shrink the amount needed. Particularly right now with no games even taking advantage of the extra 512mb RAM to begin with, let alone needing more, its probably ok for them to keep that much locked up for the near future.

I would say in pure technical power it's 1/4 of current gen. But because screen is smaller it can push better looking graphic at lower res.

it has 128Vram

Your overestimating the Vita I think. However you can get a lot done with new hardware, even if it pales in comparison to our current consoles from a horsepower standpoint.
 
While your point on diminishing returns is valid to a degree, Thunder Monkey.

His point that "weak" is a relative term is also valid. It's perfectly reasonable to describe the Wii U as weak in certain aspects or relative to certain comparable devices (current or future) based on the information emerging - regardless of if it's output (current or future).

It depends on the benchmark one sets.
 

Cosmozone

Member
Doesn't Xbox 360 have IE now too... And still at 32MB?

OS is just bloated ATM for Wii U.
Don't know about Xbox, but in general if you load a page in the browser, you will need RAM for its contents. So you could basically load a page with roughly 1 GB of images in it. This kind of RAM is called user space on normal computers and that's what I meant. Still, 1GB is pretty generous of course.
 
While your point on diminishing returns is valid to a degree, Thunder Monkey.

His point that "weak" is a relative term is also valid. It's perfectly reasonable to describe the Wii U as weak in certain aspects or relative to certain comparable devices (current or future) based on the information emerging - regardless of if it's output (current or future).

It depends on the benchmark one sets.
Definitely.

I'll just never understand the idea that weak equals no capability. Or that what is a pretty videogame one day is ugly the next when a newer class of hardware releases. Less capable or technically proficient? I agree 100%. Ugly? I really can't.

3D DS games can be pretty. It's rare, and unbelievably challenging to achieve when dealing with less than 1,000 poly character models, but it can still happen.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Doesn't Xbox 360 have IE now too... And still at 32MB?

OS is just bloated ATM for Wii U.

Yes, they have IE.
And they're locked into 32MB for compatibility reasons.
 

Perkel

Banned
Wii U doesn't have 1GB Os.

All multitasking devices including consoles need big amount of ram. Wii U os is probably 100-200mb max rest is reserved for possible apps that will run in background.

PS3 nor Xbox is multitasking console. They use all their ram for browsers netflix and other apps.

So don't believe nintendo will later give games 500mb more. it will be at most 50-100 mb
 
And the fact is we don't know what Nintendo paid. We know they used at least 2 other vendors and neither the Hynix or Samsung parts imply there's anything special about them being "low power". The only thing specially about the RAM is it's not designed to overclock or overvolt well like a lot of the consumer grade stuff sold through Newegg. Other than that it is basically the cheapest RAM you can buy on the open market.

The samsung part def does denote low power but the hynix indeed doesn't. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and give Nintendo some credit.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
It's more like "I don't care to optimise code for different architectures" really.


Nintendo knew the landscape when they were developing wiiU. They had three choices

1) aim high, get a system that could take UE4 and ports or downports of 720/PS4 stuff
2) have technical parity or slightly better compared to 360, aiming to get high quality ports. Key here would be to minimise the incremental cost of adding a WiiU sku to the publishing plans. That means having an architecture that doesn't require too much fiddling to get similar performance compared to 360, and tools that fit well within the current development environments being used.
3) make another Wii


I think they tried to do (2) and pretty much pulled it off. 'Lazy' devs (more realistically devs given no time or budget by the publisher) are getting roughly parity with 360/Ps3 right at launch. Tools can only improve, integrating wiiU workflows into Multiplatform development will only get better, optimisations will be done.
 

nikatapi

Member
Nintendo knew the landscape when they were developing wiiU. They had three choices

1) aim high, get a system that could take UE4 and ports or downports of 720/PS4 stuff
.

I think that was hinted, but probably even ps3 and xbox360 will get it given the large userbase.

What seems more obvious though is that while WiiU is capable in terms of features, it is missing the raw power some may expected, which is why i think it won't be able to get many downports. But it's a matter of the publishers being interested in releasing the games for the WiiU.

I mean, 3DS got SFIV and i think a resident evil developer said that they had RE:5 running on the system as a showcase. Think about how less capable and architecturally different the 3DS is, yet if there is money to be had, ports can happen.
 

Eteric Rice

Member
I think that was hinted, but probably even ps3 and xbox360 will get it given the large userbase.

What seems more obvious though is that while WiiU is capable in terms of features, it is missing the raw power some may expected, which is why i think it won't be able to get many downports. But it's a matter of the publishers being interested in releasing the games for the WiiU.

I mean, 3DS got SFIV and i think a resident evil developer said that they had RE:5 running on the system as a showcase. Think about how less capable and architecturally different the 3DS is, yet if there is money to be had, ports can happen.

Good point, I suppose. I wonder if the gulf between Wii U and the new systems will be as big as the gulf between Xbox 360/PS3 and 3DS?
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
From one of the teardowns they're using Micron DDR3L, the same chip here

http://www.micron.com/~/media/Documents/Products/Data Sheet/DRAM/4Gb_1_35V_DDR3L.pdf
The teardown: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo+Wii+U+Teardown/11796/2
"DDR3L SDRAM (1.35V) is a low voltage version of the
DDR3 SDRAM (1.5V)."

But you're right, it's not exactly the same used in ipods. That was hyperbole :p
Micron's modules are DDR3L, but they have 1.5V compatibility mode, which is most likely how they're used on the WiiU, as the other two vendors' parts are both 1.5V.
 

Perkel

Banned
I think that was hinted, but probably even ps3 and xbox360 will get it given the large userbase.

UE4 effects can be done on any hardware but question is how fast ? Also engine memory footprint can be quite larger than UE3 meaning even worse graphic than UE3 for current gen because there will be less space for assets.

I don't see any point of UE4 on current gen consoles because graphics won't be any different that what UE3 already give.

It's like using full Cryengine3 or Vista for PII 400 with 64ram
 

Kenka

Member
The WiiU has shit hardware but will propose cloud gaming down the line. Hence, no need for beefy specs.

The sentence above is speculation.
 
Hmm I am confused . Why is ddr 3 ram at say 1600 slow in the wii u? My workstation that I am working on right now has the sam ram in it and its not slow by any means.
 
It's more like "I don't care to optimise code for different architectures" really.

you assume different = good still.

The architecture may not only be different but it also worse than the HD twins for the way the 4A engine works (the engine powering Metro games).

Seriously, saying lazy devs with 4a games is hilarious. These guys are actually tech masters. Read the digital foundry interview with their lead tech guy. He criticizes a lot about his own engine work and the work of others...
 

wsippel

Banned
Hmm I am confused . Why is ddr 3 ram at say 1600 slow in the wii u? My workstation that I am working on right now has the sam ram in it and its not slow by any means.
Because it's on a 64bit bus. PCs use the same RAM, but wider busses (dual, triple or quad channel controllers). POWER7 even uses dual quad channel memory controllers (2 x 4 x 64bit).
 
Because it's on a 64bit bus. PCs use the same RAM, but wider busses (dual, triple or quad channel controllers). POWER7 even uses dual quad channel memory controllers (2 x 4 x 64bit).

We know what the bus is just by looking at the ram itself? Couldn't the two 512 chips be connected as if they were dual channel?
 

zoukka

Member
you assume different = good still.

The architecture may not only be different but it also worse than the HD twins for the way the 4A engine works (the engine powering Metro games).

Seriously, saying lazy devs with 4a games is hilarious. These guys are actually tech masters. Read the digital foundry interview with their lead tech guy. He criticizes a lot about his own engine work and the work of others...

I wasn't being negative about it. But that's his stance. They could port their game to Wii U, but they don't want to go through all the effort included. It's not being lazy, it's just prioritizing your resources.
 

Guiberu

Member
Keep in mind that these ports that have issues are based on engines built and tweaked for old hardware.

This old hardware would've required a fair bit of specific coding to optimise and shoehorn in effects that, for the hardware age, wouldn't have been standard.

Now, when you take to porting these games and the aforementioned optimisations - they could in turn conflict with a process that is "native" for the WiiU to produce. Resulting in slower rendering than had the game been built from the ground up on the WiiU.

A good analogy would be something like phone ROMs.

Take a Windows Mobile Device, with good specifications, and shoehorn an Android ROM on there. The chances are it won't run fantastically straight away. This isn't because the phone is underpowered - but because the phone wasn't built with Android is mind, and Android wasn't built for that phone. Given time (and release of drivers), the two can become harmonious and work wonderfully. These games were built using a DevKit that is new and different for most developers outside of Nintendo. They had the option of either doing their best to make the already built engines run on the WiiU, or build from the ground up. Given the timescales - what would you choose?

That's not to say that patches won't be released to improve the games.

And there's no doubt in my mind that eventually we'll see that the WiiU is a very, very capable machine. But it'll take a studio working fully with the WiiU hardware from beginning to end to show it.
 

dumbo

Member
Hmm I am confused . Why is ddr 3 ram at say 1600 slow in the wii u? My workstation that I am working on right now has the sam ram in it and its not slow by any means.

Your PC has 1600 DDR3 for main memory.
Your PC then (most likely) has a bunch of higher spec memory sitting on the graphics card.

This page has a table with a bunch of figures for graphics cards from 2009 including the original 4770.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/radeon-hd4770_2.html

It doessn't seem a totally catastrophic decision (e.g. BLOPS2 seems to run fine), but it does set a definite ceiling on the Wii-U performance.
 

Guiberu

Member
Your PC has 1600 DDR3 for main memory.
Your PC then (most likely) has a bunch of higher spec memory sitting on the graphics card.

This page has a table with a bunch of figures for graphics cards from 2009 including the original 4770.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/radeon-hd4770_2.html

It doessn't seem a totally catastrophic decision (e.g. BLOPS2 seems to run fine), but it does set a definite ceiling on the Wii-U performance.

Does it?

Prior to Rogue Squadron the Gamecube - would you have imagined that the machine was capable of incredibly high polygon models, with dazzling effects including bump mapping (something that had previously been described as "impossible" on the Gamecube)?

Looking at the launch titles of the 360, PS3, or even something like the PS2 - then look at mid to end generation titles. There's a large variance between what "should" be capable and what ends up being capable.
 

dumbo

Member

Yes, it does. Specifically in terms of texturing, the WiiU is limited.

But BLOPS2 seems to indicate that for some current AAA games, bandwidth limit is not a barrier that is making a huge visual difference (or indeed any difference).

(in practice developers seem more concerned about the CPU anyway)
 
Your PC has 1600 DDR3 for main memory.
Your PC then (most likely) has a bunch of higher spec memory sitting on the graphics card.

This page has a table with a bunch of figures for graphics cards from 2009 including the original 4770.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/radeon-hd4770_2.html

It doessn't seem a totally catastrophic decision (e.g. BLOPS2 seems to run fine), but it does set a definite ceiling on the Wii-U performance.

So spec wise it is most likely equivalent to a 7490m mobile notebook gpu ?
 

wsippel

Banned
Yes, it does. Specifically in terms of texturing, the WiiU is limited.
Textures are pretty much a non issue. With 1GB RAM total, you only use a couple dozen MB textures per frame. Most bandwidth is used to access a limited amount of data many times per frame.
 

Guiberu

Member
Textures are pretty much a non issue. With 1GB RAM total, you only use a couple dozen MB textures per frame. Most bandwidth is used to access a limited amount of data many times per frame.

Indeed.

For example:

Crysis%20VH%201680.png


Also worth mentioning that, I believe the 4870 had much lower memory bandwidth than the WiiU seemingly has (?)
 

Kosma

Banned
You can't use IE on Xbox while running games. It's using all the available system RAM.

What would you rather have, enough RAM to run games properly, or enough RAM to browse the internet in the background?

Reserving RAM for this or that is very bad since it takes away the flexibility for the dev.
 

Durante

Member
Some people just need to take a step back and stop acting like everyone disagreeing the WiiU is uniformly weak and outdated is some crazy deluded Nintendo fan. It's really not a weak system.
I agree with your first sentence. We simply don't have enough information to claim that everything is uniformly weak and outdated, and even if we did have full information I don't think 32MB eDRAM are outdated by any definition.

But the second part, "it's not a weak system", seems to be a rather subjective judgement. I say releasing a piece of consumer electronics in a similar form factor that has trouble matching 6 year old hardware in some aspects is "weak". It may be "efficient", but the two -- to me -- are not mutually exclusive.

Also worth mentioning that, I believe the 4870 had much lower memory bandwidth than the WiiU seemingly has (?)
It had almost 10x more external memory bandwidth. We don't know how much B/W the Wii U GPU has to the eDRAM.

The gpu seems to be a 6400m mobile processor. shares the same 64bit memory and everything. Same process and everything
This is an interesting point. What's the 6400m's die size? Edit: seems to be too small.
 
I agree with your first sentence. We simply don't have enough information to claim that everything is uniformly weak and outdated, and even if we did have full information I don't think 32MB eDRAM are outdated by any definition.

But the second part, "it's not a weak system", seems to be a rather subjective judgement. I say releasing a piece of consumer electronics in a similar form factor that has trouble matching 6 year old hardware in some aspects is "weak". It may be "efficient", but the two -- to me -- are not mutually exclusive.

Weak if compared to the next systems of Microsoft and Sony but way more powerfull if compaired to the wii. Keep in mind consoles in a year or 2 could crash and lose a ton of sales to tablets. Also keep in mind nintendos consoles have never been the most powerfull out there. the gamecube wasn't even as powerfull as the original xbox.
 
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