Alligatorjandro
Banned
I dont even know what this is about anymore.
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Are transgendered folk obligated to disclose that information to potential mates?
- Thread starter kinggroin
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As someone that was diagnosed with "Sharp Knees", i promissed myself that i would never ever quote you in a discussion related to this ... but ...
YOU PROVED YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR SIXTH SENSE !!!!
xD
It is a matter of belief as much as gravity is.
If you see the video i relinked, you can say that gender identity is set on the stone don't matter how many hormones you take or don't take
GoldenEye 007
Member
go gata
Well, I have some thoughts about this general matter. A tad longwinded, but hopefully worth the read.
Sex, gender, and sexual orientation have classically been thought to be bound together on the same axis, more or less something like this (quick and dirty scribble ahoy):
But experience and study alike have shown that this arrangement fails to fully describe the sheer variance present within humanity. Homosexuality is a great example, it shatters the presumption that all men are born to love women, and all women to love men. Add in a simple representation of one intersex variation and you get something that looks like this:
Well, clearly this is already not working, the dual-axis male-female model is starting to suffer significant deformation. If transgenderism has it roots in biology and not social fancy (as the mounting evidence suggests), it would imply (to some degree, however small or large) a decoupling of sex and gender, and clinging to the hardline model of old would smack of undue stubbornness.
And from what I understand of the scientific work and progress being made with regard to these matters, variance, and not rigidity, is winning the day. The more we learn of our own biology, the less and less rigid it becomes with regards to our classical categorization and conceptions. If we run down the line with a model something like the above, delineate all the observed variations, one begins to see something that resembles less and less the classical two axes, and more a great tree with many extant branches (aesthetically, much like the great tree of life). If you can't see that mess for what it is, you cling to a biology decades (if not centuries) out of date, from times when simpler answers and simpler models were all that were within reach and appetite.
What would you make of someone like Cheryl Chase, who by genetics is a woman (XX), but by gender and genitalia is intersexed? If your belief held merit, she ought to be a woman in all respects.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
racist
probably more trustworthy than people with k-on characters tbh
I also think he might have a hard time with androgen insensitivity syndrome, whose expressions range from men with mild fertility problems to women who can have completely normal female bodies despite being "genetically male."
Well, I have some thoughts about this general matter. A tad longwinded, but hopefully worth the read.
Sex, gender, and sexual orientation have classically been thought to be bound together on the same axis, more or less something like this (quick and dirty scribble ahoy):
But experience and study alike have shown that this arrangement fails to fully describe the sheer variance present within humanity. Homosexuality is a great example, it shatters the presumption that all men are born to love women, and all women to love men. Add in a simple representation of one intersex variation and you get something that looks like this:
Well, clearly this is already not working, the dual-axis male-female model is starting to suffer significant deformation. If transgenderism has it roots in biology and not social fancy (as the mounting evidence suggests), it would imply (to some degree, however small or large) a decoupling of sex and gender, and clinging to the hardline model of old would smack of undue stubbornness.
And from what I understand of the scientific work and progress being made with regard to these matters, variance, and not rigidity, is winning the day. The more we learn of our own biology, the less and less rigid it becomes with regards to our classical categorization and conceptions. If we run down the line with a model something like the above, delineate all the observed variations, one begins to see something that resembles less and less the classical two axes, and more a great tree with many extant branches (aesthetically, much like the great tree of life). If you can't see that mess for what it is, you cling to a biology decades (if not centuries) out of date, from times when simpler answers and simpler models were all that were within reach and appetite.
What would you make of someone like Cheryl Chase, who by genetics is a woman (XX), but by gender and genitalia is intersexed? If your belief held merit, she ought to be a woman in all respects.
Long Story Short
you'd judge trans-specied people and you know it
Another great example, half-kicking myself for not remembering it.
In essence, very much so. I'm just a ponderous doodler/writer!
Good thing that isn't what we're discussing.
Yeah, I know we aren't getting to the more "opinionated" posters that we may be replying to, but such an argument can bring good information to more moderate people that may not know much about the subject.
LOL
I admit that their are some cases where I simply wouldn't be able to tell (Nong Poy), but those are exceptionally rare.
Dark Octave
Banned
I never singled you out in the malice way you make it sound. I never even mentioned your name.
You guys can talk all about gender being in the mind and soul if you want to. But the physical evidence is in the genes. They don't lie and cannot be altered. If you posses a "Y" chromosome, then physically you are a man. No knife or drug can ever change that.
Lexi, I would never disrespect you and call you anything other than what you would want me to call you (example: This is Lexi. She is a woman), but I can never truly think of you as a 100% true woman the same as I do when I see the women in my life. If you are a true 100% woman, then what are they, 110% true woman? You are not equal when it comes to womanhood. As I said before, the majority of the men in this thread strongly agree with me on this. They have expressed that they feel the exact same way. The difference is that maybe I am more direct about it.
For me, this is just a thread in passing that I'm sharing my opinion in, but for you, it's your everyday reality and if I was insensitive maybe I need to work on my delivery in the future but I'm not sorry about what I said and am saying here now.
I don't think I have ever called anyone out of their name in the 4 or 5 years of me being on these forums. Yet you guys feel you have the right to directly insult me and call me names out of malice. I have the right to my opinion and you have the right to yours. Lets keep this a discussion and not a personal bashing.
word. despite the nonsense that occurred throughout the course of the thread, i do find the subject fascinating.
that (corny as fuck) bit of forced outrage did pretty much this.
Read the post I made in response to Botolf's. Please. Read it now, because it's a direct refutation of what you just said.
If i had money and time I would go to any atheist or any non-religion related thread in gaf,and find EVERYONE of those who posted here saying that they "know" and basicaly they were making sex with a dude, email then all the scientific evidence that proves otherwise and then go jay and silent bob on every single one of then (wich is the majority here on neogaf .. like the majority here in this thread irrationaly think a transgirl is a man)
Complaining about that people believing in what they WANT to believe and not in what science says and then coming and ignoring YEARS of scientific, neurological, psycological, psyquiatric and every other kind of stuff (YES, even GENETICAL .. see the mickey/minie link already posted here by chezmo and most intersexual condition) because they KNOW and BELIEVE that
1) gender and sex is the same thing
2) transwomen are man and transmen are women
3) an heterosexual men cannot make sex to a post op transwomen without having an specific paraphilia
4) you can ALWAYS tell that a XY person is XY and a XX person is XX
[/rant]
.... can anyone bother to ask more girls on the girl gaf thread to ask a "girl with a female to male dude" version ?
Ignoring fertility and with both options of perfect and imperfect/not made surgery downstairs
Gaygaf also works
95% of this thread is heterosexual male gaf
Complaining about that people believing in what they WANT to believe and not in what science says and then coming and ignoring YEARS of scientific, neurological, psycological, psyquiatric and every other kind of stuff (YES, even GENETICAL .. see the mickey/minie link already posted here by chezmo and most intersexual condition) because they KNOW and BELIEVE that
1) gender and sex is the same thing
2) transwomen are man and transmen are women
3) an heterosexual men cannot make sex to a post op transwomen without having an specific paraphilia
4) you can ALWAYS tell that a XY person is XY and a XX person is XX
[/rant]
.... can anyone bother to ask more girls on the girl gaf thread to ask a "girl with a female to male dude" version ?
Ignoring fertility and with both options of perfect and imperfect/not made surgery downstairs
Gaygaf also works
95% of this thread is heterosexual male gaf
Dark Octave
Banned
Meaning that if a trans person wished me to address them as a he or her, despite my personal opinion, I would oblige.
No outrage here and nothing forced or corny from me ever, word?
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Yeah, I don't think chromosomes tell the whole story. Disorders like androgen insensitivity have some pretty interesting results.
If you're balls deep and you don't sense that anything is wrong then I think, "Doesn't matter, had sex" is an acceptable reaction.
If you're balls deep and you don't sense that anything is wrong then I think, "Doesn't matter, had sex" is an acceptable reaction.
The majority of men in this thread are transphobic, that makes it okay.
It's quite possible, but you know that the majority always has the facts. I can't think of a single period of time in history in which ignorant thoughts have been popular or held as truth.
I don't know what you expect from me for such a relatively simple courtesy. I kinda get the feeling you consider it such a big deal to refer to me as she.
Dark Octave
Banned
I don't expect anything from you. Just stating what I would do in that situation.
hmm.
Cool Escalator
Banned
If i had a secret vagina on my elbow or something, i wouldnt tell my girlfriend no.
Amount of "but they're not REALLY women" in here, direct or otherwise, is pretty... ugggggh.
But anyway, just wondering, as it seems like there plenty of guys out there (and in here) that say that trans is a dealbreaker, but is that as frequent an occurrence for lesbian transwomen/gay transmen to run into? I know it may not be quite as common to find data on, but I'm really curious as to whether the issue is as frequent in those communities.
Oh, and as to the topic, I'd definitely say yes, but it's a real tough question as to when. Obviously the longer you wait, the more potential there is for a dangerous backlash, but at the same time it's a bit of an important secret to a lot of trans people that you wouldn't necessarily want to trust someone with before you really got to know them.
But anyway, just wondering, as it seems like there plenty of guys out there (and in here) that say that trans is a dealbreaker, but is that as frequent an occurrence for lesbian transwomen/gay transmen to run into? I know it may not be quite as common to find data on, but I'm really curious as to whether the issue is as frequent in those communities.
Oh, and as to the topic, I'd definitely say yes, but it's a real tough question as to when. Obviously the longer you wait, the more potential there is for a dangerous backlash, but at the same time it's a bit of an important secret to a lot of trans people that you wouldn't necessarily want to trust someone with before you really got to know them.
mercenar1e
Member
they should
JasonUresti
Member
Most of the true bigotry on this thread has come from the pro trans gendered side.
Someone saying they fully support the rights of trans people to act and be called what they want, but saying they personally would not want a relationship with such a person, is not displaying bigotry. It is at the most, prejudice, but it is not bigotry.
There are many other smaller factors than someone under going sexual reassignment that can destroy an otherwise seemingly well matched relationship. To act as if it is no large deal, or anyone citing it as a valid reason to break off a relationship is displaying some unreasonable malicious belief, is ludicrous and shows a level of intolerance that is disturbing.
Someone saying they fully support the rights of trans people to act and be called what they want, but saying they personally would not want a relationship with such a person, is not displaying bigotry. It is at the most, prejudice, but it is not bigotry.
There are many other smaller factors than someone under going sexual reassignment that can destroy an otherwise seemingly well matched relationship. To act as if it is no large deal, or anyone citing it as a valid reason to break off a relationship is displaying some unreasonable malicious belief, is ludicrous and shows a level of intolerance that is disturbing.
I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and I just want to respond to the bolded above. I'm a "born" woman, as I suppose Dark Octave would see it and I completely disagree with you on this. I have absolutely no problem at all considering Lexi as a real woman, not particularly different from me or any other woman. And if I remember correctly, at least one other "born" woman in this very thread said the same thing. If we consider them women then how can you say that it's disrespectful to the women in your life to not see them as women as well? I mean, physically we women run the gamut so I don't see that as the defining feature. Being a woman (or a man) is more than just sex bits. You can carve anything you want with the physical human body but it's something in the mind that makes the essence of a woman. I wish I was as eloquent as some of you have been during this thread, but I just couldn't read that argument any longer without responding.
Whatever you say buddy
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Yes. Should be honest about it upfront imho.
Please cut the hyperbole. To say what you just did ignores a lot of side comments from the pro-immediate disclosure side that don't have anything directly to do with this thread. I understand and agree that there are reasons that a partner may not be interested in a trans individual; I get the aversion to major surgical procedures, or genitalia that you are averse to, or issues with reproduction that may come up. What is less understandable is an aversion to someone simply based on their trans status, even if everything was lining up otherwise, or the often stated belief (in this thread) that a trans woman is less of one than a cis woman.
<3 you all, and thanks for the support. I know that there are plenty of women out there that are less accepting of trans people, but the women in my life that I'm out to (including my mom and two sisters) have all been wonderful. The men, too, for that matter, but I feel like there has been a greater understanding among the women in my life.
I'm not saying I support this idea, but if this is what you believe, then it only seems logical that there could then be a biological defect occur that causes the person's gender to be written incorrectly.
Read my mind.
You said it was offensive to your mother for trans women to call themselves women. There is no way to wriggle out of that. Own it.
And you think the chromosomes is all that constitutes gender? You got some learning to do, boy.
Thanks for this post.
You can't say boy! You don't know their chromosomes yet!
This is a transphobic opinion:
This is saying that because the majority of men in the thread agree with that opinion, it is okay:
I was simply clarifying Dark Octaves argument. If you have a problem with Dark Octave calling the majority of the men in this thread transphobic, take it up with him, not me.
LOL.
And how did I miss this gem?
Dark Octave said:
Who gives a fuck? I bet I could find 100 people who said... monkeys existing disproves evolution. Would it make them right just because they have a consensus?
You are just not very good at reasoning, being considerate, or conveying your thoughts. I don't say that to be mean, and I would never disrespect you and will respect your choices, but it is the truth.
Unfortunately, that's pretty much how all of these threads end. I (personally) can't really blame either side, because I think most of the people in these discussions are good and rational people, it's just that the argument gets heater, people get tired of feeling like their opinions aren't being considered and/or listened to, and tempers get short.
That isn't to say that there aren't people who just don't give a shit about the trans topic, aren't willing to listen to the other side, and have no problem being insultingbecause there certainly are. But it's a very passionate topic, and it can still be hard for both sides to find a middle ground where a lot of agreement can be found.
Which, of course, is a shame, and until that can happen more, it's going to continue to be a tough road to walk for people who are trans.
scar tissue
Banned
I'm kinda surprised this thread has been ban-free so far.
I expected shit hitting the fan by page 3 (in superior-mode 100post GAF, obviously).
It's probably that about 60% of GAF would be banned if transphobia was bannable on the same level as homophobia.
Still, I don't really get what's insulting about the fact that trans girls aren't 100% like real girls.
People can be different without being better or worse.
Pollux
Member
I've been think about this for the last few hours. Will elaborate later, on phone now. But, I don't think a woman has any obligation to tell me anything she doesn't want to. Would I like to know before we get intimate? Yes.
Also, Lexi, please post more. You're posts have been the highlight of the thread.
Also, Lexi, please post more. You're posts have been the highlight of the thread.
I'm LTTP on this, but I just wanted to say that, yes, you are very very right to feel this way.
Vermillion
Banned
As a question - have I posted anything that would be considered transphobic?
Wowwwww... As a pro tip I would never presume to speak for anyone other than myself, kthxbai.
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