I think people too often associate the NSMB series bland art and music with its quality in general- NSMB Wii and NSMB Wii U are legitimately good/great games. If you want to argue they've stagnated in presentation, especially compared to other 2d platformers like Tropical Freeze or Mania, I'm all onboard, but I still think Mario has remained king in level design, aside from Retro's DK efforts. (This is more targeted at posts after the OP- the OP concedes that Mario is still great at level design.)
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What Mario can learn from Mania
- Thread starter Mr.Fletcher
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BassForever
Member
Just because people here like to shit on the new games doesn't mean they're actually bad. The new mario games are still worlds better then any of the 2d sonic games made from the year 2000 to before Mania's release.
It doesn't matter, they're both Nintendo properties that are ridiculously popular. Money talks.
...it kind of does, because it makes your point invalid.
It is valid that 2d Mario could use better aesthetics. It isn't valid that doing so would be learning from Mania. It's just something they should put more effort into because it's what people want and have wanted before Mania was even a thing.
And I don't see what's wrong in saying they put a lot of effort into the aesthetics of Mario maker when they clearly did. Mario maker has great aesthetic presentation. Hopefully they carry some of that spark into the next traditional game.
Nitpicker_Red
Member
Yeah 2D Sonic games have that richness in backgrounds and foregrounds that really "fills the screen". Mario's visuals were always more on the "serviceable" side, more coming to help highlight the gameplay than being a feature by themselve.
Dare I compare them to levels in Kirby VS levels in Starfy? Eh, maybe not the same idea/scale, both are still shapes and platforms focused. Games that "fills the screen" that very way are kind of rare.
Supermanisdead
Member
The nsmb series is just ugly as hell. Bros 3, World and Yoshi's Island all had much better art styles. I wish they'd make a fun, snappy 2d Mario with Wario Land shake it graphics.
I seriously can't believe there are people who think NSMB2 is perfect and can't learn anything from other 2D platformers. Like I can get it for Wii, even if I don't personally agree, but 2 is just boring. It's got "great" level design in the sense that it's inoffensive, but I felt like I was on quaaludes when playing through it. Even if you're a Mario fan, surely you can agree it doesn't measure up to many other Mario games' level design.
The NSMB2 soundtrack is also irredeemably bad. Some of the tracks are downright irritating.
The NSMB2 soundtrack is also irredeemably bad. Some of the tracks are downright irritating.
Tarextherex
Banned
We didn't need a highly rated Sonic game to remember that the NSMB artstyle ain't shit, that is basically all of your complaints
Despite a few years of "safe" games Mario never had severe drops in quality. His 3D games were never "barely playable". NSMB is basically a spinoff, they don't have the creative process past 2D games had. As long as they sell they won't change anything. Thankfully Odyssey looks interesting af, basically the opposite of 3D World which essentially put the final nail on the Wii U's coffin
Despite a few years of "safe" games Mario never had severe drops in quality. His 3D games were never "barely playable". NSMB is basically a spinoff, they don't have the creative process past 2D games had. As long as they sell they won't change anything. Thankfully Odyssey looks interesting af, basically the opposite of 3D World which essentially put the final nail on the Wii U's coffin
I can agree with this and its certainly the case on GAF.
However art styles can always be debated. I know a boat load of people that love the Mario games look and just yesterday again I was showing Sonic Mania to some friend and they went like "but why Genesis graphics!?"
Sir_Crocodile
Member
I mean, I've been loving mania, but NSMBU was the last 2D Mario game and it was stellar. Odyssey looks fantastic for 3D.
Sonic's been terrible for 20+ years until mania, Mario had a couple of bland games 2 gens ago (NSMBDS, NSMBWII), but otherwise has been consistently outstanding.
Sonic's been terrible for 20+ years until mania, Mario had a couple of bland games 2 gens ago (NSMBDS, NSMBWII), but otherwise has been consistently outstanding.
Level design is rarely discussed in nsmb threads because that would require people to actually play the games they're critiquing. Anyway there hasn't been a new nsmb game in 5 years it's a dead franchise. Bring on Mario Maker 2.0.
Gunstar Ikari
Unconfirmed Member
The only thing that 2D Mario has to learn from Mania is aesthetics, and that hardly counts as even the garbage Sonic games dance circles around the average 2D Mario game aesthetic-wise.
As fun as Mania is, I spent most of my play time thinking about Sonic 2/3&K instead, and I honestly don't think that I'll revisit Mania once the new game shine wears off. It's a nostalgia trip first and foremost, a concept that is basically pointless for 2D Mario as its levels are, again, nowhere near as thematic as Sonic's.
As fun as Mania is, I spent most of my play time thinking about Sonic 2/3&K instead, and I honestly don't think that I'll revisit Mania once the new game shine wears off. It's a nostalgia trip first and foremost, a concept that is basically pointless for 2D Mario as its levels are, again, nowhere near as thematic as Sonic's.
pretty done
Member
Just because they're king in level design (they're not since Tropical Freeze world 1 levels are far more interesting than even later world NSMBU levels) doesn't mean the other aspects shouldn't be improved.
NSLU tier level design paired with Sonic Mania tier OST and art style would be next level. *BAH BAH*
I've played all the New Super Mario Bros games except U.
I'm not sure why people are acting like NSMB DS or NSMB 2 are exemplars of level design.
Actually, I'll test this: Tell me your favorite level in NSMB 2. I have my 3DS and a copy of the game right here and ready to try it out again to see just how good it is. I've only played through the game once, so maybe my opinion will change.
brickarts295
Member
I read this as "What Mario can learn from the Mafia" got confused for a second XD
No, it is valid to say they could learn about aesthetics from Mania, because Sonic Mania isn't simply a case of "has nice aesthetics", it's an example of taking cues from the games it looks to invoke nostalgia from, and considering how it may have evolved if the dawn of 3D gaming hadn't branched us off on a different path. Sonic Mania doesn't simply ape that classic games in the way stuff like Megaman 9 and 10, or the various styles of Super Mario Maker do, and it doesn't simply discard everything in favour of current graphical paradigms like Rayman and Donkey Kong do. Sonic Mania is an actual evolution of the old style, which for something like New Super Mario Bros which looks to play on the nostalgia of games past, is far more aspiring than the lazy Adobe Flash, Bah Bah route that they've taken. It could also take cues from different games too... it could take cues from Rayman, or Donkey Kong, or even Cuphead... but simply looking better doesn't nullify the fact that there are existing examples as to how it could go about looking better.
I didn't say they didn't put effort into the aesthetics of Mario Maker (although looking near 1:1 with graphics you'd literally be keeping in a vault doesn't seem like the most difficult prospect ever). The point was that Mario Maker doesn't do what Sonic Mania does. It doesn't envision what 2D Mario could have been beyond Mario World and Yoshi's Island. If a Mario World 3 had been released, you'd expect it to make the sort of leaps that 2D Marios had made for each game up to that point, not just look exactly like Mario World. Before Mania (let's say around the time Sonic 4 was being floated) people would have wanted a Sonic throwback to look exactly like Sonic 2 or 3. Sonic Mania shows how it can be done better than that.
Storm Kyleis
Member
We like crazy original locations. It's fun to explore and hop around inside a TV studio, a printing press factory within a garden, or a western saloon.
The 2D Mario series needs way more of that.
The 2D Mario series needs way more of that.
I dunno, Mario isn't Sonic and, unlike the current Sonic Team, Nintendo knows exactly what to do with Mario and more often than not executes to an impeccable degree.
Don't think there's much to say here. It's the same situation it was in the 90s, Mario's design philosophy just doesn't overlap much with what Sonic does.
Don't think there's much to say here. It's the same situation it was in the 90s, Mario's design philosophy just doesn't overlap much with what Sonic does.
A new 2D Mario with SNES style sprites and design would be fucking massive and get a ton of mainstream press. Nostalgia sells, especially Mario nostalgia. Look no further than Mario Maker.
Release that shit after the SNES classic sells a fuckzillion units this holiday? EZ MONEY
Release that shit after the SNES classic sells a fuckzillion units this holiday? EZ MONEY
Sky Walker
Member
Fun coincidence that Masashi Kishimoto "Naruto creator" made a one shot manga that Called Mario, about mafia stuff
Firstly, 2D Mario needs more Wario. I couldn't believe they missed that obvious opportunity in NSMB2, where the theme of the damn game was collecting thousands and thousands of coins. Bowser being the villain every time stopped being interesting a long time ago. Bring back Wart and develop more creative bosses like those in SMB2 or the Yoshi series. Find a place for Birdo.
The 2D series, though still enjoyable, has become quite stale and I'd love to see them finally shake things up a bit.
The 2D series, though still enjoyable, has become quite stale and I'd love to see them finally shake things up a bit.
Gazoogleheimmer
Member
I agree. Haven't played U yet, and wasn't a fan of NSMB2, but all of them are enjoyable to me. It's a given that a Switch version will come out, and I'm sure it will be in the same vein as the others and there will be a lot of disappointed GAFers.
From a gameplay mechanics point-of-view, this is entirely true. From a presentation and even variety point of view... nah. The sort of evolution Sonic Mania provides of the prior games is exactly the sort of evolution 2D Mario games used to provide over each other also. Each new entry didn't used to be so stagnant and samey. The suggestion isn't to make a new Mario that plays anything like Sonic Mania, the suggestion is to make a 2D Mario which would be equivalent to Sonic Mania in terms of evolving classic Mario, rather than each feeling like they're just rolling off a 2D Mario factory line.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
I actually found the three NSMB games I played (skipped 3DS) to have surprising elements. Its just the art and music that are boring. The bland music plays too relaxed and tries to be charming compared to the fun athletic themes of SMB and SMW. The NSMB themes also sound too close to the original which was fun at its time until it was played to the death in the next three games. Even the great castle level themes remixed from World is getting a bit tiring.
The background art in the ice world and the pastel ghost level is great though. But the objects and Mario look like weird plastic toys floating in them.
Edit: Sorry for that jumbled up reply earlier.
The background art in the ice world and the pastel ghost level is great though. But the objects and Mario look like weird plastic toys floating in them.
Edit: Sorry for that jumbled up reply earlier.
I mean you're not wrong, but this isn't a lesson that is specifically learned from Mania. If anything that's a lesson that could've been learned when Mega Man 9 came out and did for Mega Man what Mania just did for Sonic, just to name one example.
To be honest i didn't play nsmb 2 and I barely remember the first one since its over 10 years old, I was mainly talking about the Wii u one and the Luigi expansion because that's when I noticed most of the criticism about the franchise.
Actually Megaman 9 is what I'd explicitly contrast against what Sonic Mania does. Sonic Mania could look exactly like Sonic 3&K, aiming to be a game that people could mistake for actually running on a Genesis. It didn't though, and opted to envision how a 2D Sonic sequel could have benefit natural from more capable hardware. Sonic Mania is like if Sonic 4 had been a Sega Saturn game. It's more Megaman X4 to Megaman X, than Megaman 9 to Megaman 8.
Glass Shark
Banned
I am getting so sick of pixel art games and I really hope Mario never goes back to that style unless it's in the context of something like Mario Maker.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Mario doesn't need to learn anything from Sonic.
Mario doesn't need nostalgia factor to sell well tho.
DecoReturns
Member
I'm more concern about how Sega can continue to learn from Sonic Mania.
2D Mario is happening and I wouldn't be surprise if it goes into an all new style. I'm mostly just guessing off odyssey where they have those 2D Mario gamplay sections and Mario Maker. Don't think they are going to be inspired off Mania.
2D Mario is happening and I wouldn't be surprise if it goes into an all new style. I'm mostly just guessing off odyssey where they have those 2D Mario gamplay sections and Mario Maker. Don't think they are going to be inspired off Mania.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Maybe not gameplay-wise or technical-wise but you gotta admit Nintendo can learn a thing or two from SEGA about nurturing dedicated/talented loyal fan base and engage them on a level similar to what happened with Sonic Mania.
That, for me, is far more important lesson to learn for Nintendo than artstyle, music, or whatever.
That, for me, is far more important lesson to learn for Nintendo than artstyle, music, or whatever.
Wait, you're saying there are more possible environments than generic Earth biomes? Say it ain't so!
Maybe it doesn't need it to sell well. But it sure as fuck uses it to sell ridiculously well. New Super Mario Bros obliterated the sales of the 3D Marios that weren't heavily reliant on nostalgia.
Evilkazzzz
Neo Member
You know I've also been playing Sonic Mania, and I think I've come to realize that I might enjoy 2D sonic more than I do 2D mario.
Then again I haven't played any of the old ones in a while, last ones I played were NSMB2 and NSLU. They were fine, and could get pretty challenging but for some reason I've felt more engaged playing though Sonic Mania then I remember being with either of those games. It's probably due to the multiple routes and varied boss battles.
To be fair the only other 2D sonic games I had previously played were the 2D sections of Sonic Generations and Sonic Rush for DS. I never actually experienced sonic 1, 2 3 and knuckles, so maybe this new experience is effecting me.
Then again I haven't played any of the old ones in a while, last ones I played were NSMB2 and NSLU. They were fine, and could get pretty challenging but for some reason I've felt more engaged playing though Sonic Mania then I remember being with either of those games. It's probably due to the multiple routes and varied boss battles.
To be fair the only other 2D sonic games I had previously played were the 2D sections of Sonic Generations and Sonic Rush for DS. I never actually experienced sonic 1, 2 3 and knuckles, so maybe this new experience is effecting me.
Both Classic Sonic and 2D Mario are excellent, but for very different reasons. What makes them good are different things - the fantastic controls for Mario, or the humongous level for Sonic, to name one.
But a sprite based game with Mania's love and care, and a soundtrack as great would help Mario a lot. You don't even need to change the level design from NSMB and that would help a lot.
But a sprite based game with Mania's love and care, and a soundtrack as great would help Mario a lot. You don't even need to change the level design from NSMB and that would help a lot.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The problem that stems from this threads assume that "New" is the only 2D thing.
Nah, I know my 2D platformers, and I know that Nintendo brought us to where we're at right now. But SMM really is the pinnacle of the genre, a game where there's unlimited number of levels with so much creativity that it's probably you who doesn't really seem to see what that game has done to the gaming world. It's the future of 2D Marios IMO. Now don't get me wrong, I already told that the game can be improved a lot by adding tons of stuff to it, and that doesn't prevent from adding even totally new mechanics never before seen in Marios, or even graphical styles and music. You just have to think outside the box.
Now if Nintendo does make a new 2D Mario that is not SMM, then they can do it, and I'm probably one of the first to buy it, but I know Mario Maker is the one game that I'll be playing far into the future and watching people streaming. It also means that I don't think Nintendo needs to learn anything from a Sonic game that is pretty much just normal continuation to the existing Sonic franchise (2D ones).
Gardios
Member
Honestly, I found some of the things you're praising Mania for to some of its weakest aspects, especially when compared to Sonic 3&K:
-While bringing back Blue Sphere is neat, what isn't neat is how drawn out and pace breaking it feels as a mini-game compared to the brevity of Sonic 3&K's. The fact that most of Mania's unlocks are tied to it doesn't really help it from overstaying its welcome either.
-Similarly, while I initially found "that" boss to incredibly interesting on my first run, on subsequent playthroughs I found it(and other bosses that are more gimmicky than fun) to be a massive drag to the point where I've started replaying stages in Time Attack just to avoid the tedium. This even bleeds over into one of the new Zones that wastes a entire Act to callback to an older Sonic stage that wasn't even fun the first time.
-The story in Mania...isn't what I'd call well or even cohesively told, even if we're taking the fact that there is no spoken dialog into consideration. The game can seemingly never decide if Sonic & co. are either: warped to the next Zone via the plot macguffin, naturally transition to the next Zone like in Sonic 3&K, or warped to the next Zone via...a fade to black like Sonic 1&2? The way Mania treats storytelling ends up coming off as so sloppy(and this isn't even getting into how anticlimactic and flaccid the ending is) that I question why they even bothered with a story in the first place.
Anyways, while I definitely agree that a new 2D Mario could stand to be a bit more inspired from an art style, level theme and music standpoint, I wouldn't say any of those things are exclusive to Sonic, much less Mania in particular. If anything I'd say Mario would be better off taking a page from the likes of Epic Yarn, Wooly World, Tropical Freeze or hell, just Super Mario Land 2 which had excellent and varied level themes.
-While bringing back Blue Sphere is neat, what isn't neat is how drawn out and pace breaking it feels as a mini-game compared to the brevity of Sonic 3&K's. The fact that most of Mania's unlocks are tied to it doesn't really help it from overstaying its welcome either.
-Similarly, while I initially found "that" boss to incredibly interesting on my first run, on subsequent playthroughs I found it(and other bosses that are more gimmicky than fun) to be a massive drag to the point where I've started replaying stages in Time Attack just to avoid the tedium. This even bleeds over into one of the new Zones that wastes a entire Act to callback to an older Sonic stage that wasn't even fun the first time.
-The story in Mania...isn't what I'd call well or even cohesively told, even if we're taking the fact that there is no spoken dialog into consideration. The game can seemingly never decide if Sonic & co. are either: warped to the next Zone via the plot macguffin, naturally transition to the next Zone like in Sonic 3&K, or warped to the next Zone via...a fade to black like Sonic 1&2? The way Mania treats storytelling ends up coming off as so sloppy(and this isn't even getting into how anticlimactic and flaccid the ending is) that I question why they even bothered with a story in the first place.
Anyways, while I definitely agree that a new 2D Mario could stand to be a bit more inspired from an art style, level theme and music standpoint, I wouldn't say any of those things are exclusive to Sonic, much less Mania in particular. If anything I'd say Mario would be better off taking a page from the likes of Epic Yarn, Wooly World, Tropical Freeze or hell, just Super Mario Land 2 which had excellent and varied level themes.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Completely disagree, I think your preference is showing more than anything. 2D Mario does have "a look" but so does Sonic, if anything Mario has experimented with different art styles much more often.
You are also telling them to surprise you while looking at the past for inspiration, they did, it was Mario Maker
Im glad that a group of Sonic fans got to make an official Sonic game that is well received, but Nintendo has been extremely well rewarded by their 2D Mario games for a long time and they dont really need to take any cues from Mania, which is basically a well made Genesis'ish era Sonic game.
You are also telling them to surprise you while looking at the past for inspiration, they did, it was Mario Maker
Im glad that a group of Sonic fans got to make an official Sonic game that is well received, but Nintendo has been extremely well rewarded by their 2D Mario games for a long time and they dont really need to take any cues from Mania, which is basically a well made Genesis'ish era Sonic game.
I only played and beat NSMB DS and NSMB Wii but I'd say they both could learn from Mania's retro artstyle and especially the quality of music. But also I feel what makes Mania special is that it doesn't just settle for being just like another classic 2D Sonic game, it tries its own things too and largely suceeds, like the all new stages, bosses and special stages, which featured designs and themes never present in Sonic before, and the improved graphics and sound design that still retain the classic Sonic feel. Sonic Mania, even with the remixed stages, manages to feel, sound, and look like a real sequel to Sonic 3, like if they had made one for the Saturn. There is a level of ambition in the design of Mania that you do not see in NSMB.
This is just an example but when you look at the little minigames in SMB3 like the matching card game and compare them to the minigames in NSMB Wii, they're the same exact thing but simpler so more casuals will get it I guess. Now compare that to the 3D special stages in Mania, something fully different and new from what we had before but still fitting for a classic Sonic game. In general with NSMB I just don't see the innovation or the iteration of 2D Mario, it's more like a side step than anything. That's my general thoughts on the subject.
This is just an example but when you look at the little minigames in SMB3 like the matching card game and compare them to the minigames in NSMB Wii, they're the same exact thing but simpler so more casuals will get it I guess. Now compare that to the 3D special stages in Mania, something fully different and new from what we had before but still fitting for a classic Sonic game. In general with NSMB I just don't see the innovation or the iteration of 2D Mario, it's more like a side step than anything. That's my general thoughts on the subject.
Different cases. Nintendo doesn't suffer from a lack of talent like Sega is doing now.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
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