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Can't bring myself to watch The Force Awakens more than a couple of times
- Thread starter Gunslinger
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Glass Rebel
Member
So your counter-argument to this board specifically and the internet in general having an issue with Rey being good at things while the same criticism isn't leveled against Anakin or Luke
is that you have some gripes with Maul?
Okie dokie.
Iriscomeback
Member
My appreciation stayed pretty much the same. It's a solid Star Wars movie. Leagues ahead of the prequels, but not nearly as good or memorable as the original trilogy.
Have high hopes for the sequel.
Have high hopes for the sequel.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I think what they were going for with Kylo Ren was that he has potential, just like Rey, but is shallow. He's able to stop a blaster bolt at the very beginning when he's in his element, kicking ass and taking names, but very quickly gets thrown off his groove when things stop going his way. Droid escapes with map, troopers going turncoat, couldn't get info out of Rey... he just turns into a mess.
And then we get to the fight, which may I remind that he has a Chewie blaster injury in his side (not going to harp on the "just killed his dad" argument though because I don't agree), and despite all that, Rey is STILL running from him for like half the fight.
I don't know. I don't think she's shown to be really THAT strong, aside from a few too much force-usage leading up to the lightsaber duel.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Nope I am saying the gripe over a powerful Dark force user being bested by someone not as good isn't unprecedented.
You keep trying to make it about Rey's gender but you have yet to prove any of that.
So yeah, okie fucking dokie.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Do all Force Awaken threads eventually devolve into sexist remarks against Rey and Bobby Roberts unleashing his wrath?
Sorry. Its been a long time since I seen it. By the end of the film she's where Luke is at the end of ESB give or take. Too much of a jump for me I'm afraid.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Naw, she is beyond Luke. Luke didn't stand a chance against Vader. Vader toyed with him, threw shit at him and ultimately lopped off his hand.
You have one hell of an imagination I'll give you that. To watch TFA and somehow end up with this assessment is reaching in the extreme.
Kylo is severely injured, mentally distraught, and doesn't want to hurt Rey. He is completely dominating her until the last 20 or so seconds when she reaches out to the force and her ferocity takes him by surprise.
Muffdraul
Member
The original SW hit theaters when I was 8, the perfect age as far as I'm concerned. That shit made my childhood. I loved the OT, but as I got older... once I was in my late teens, I couldn't fucking stomach RotJ any longer. Of course it has some parts that are totally great, but it was such a sharp drop in quality in certain ways. I don't think ANH or ESB have dropped down a single millimeter in my estimation, though. I love them now as much as I ever did.
I never got on board the "PT fucking sucks, GL ruined Star Wars" anti-hypetrain. No denying those movies have their flaws, but overall I really enjoy them. They were way more different from the OT that I ever would have guessed. Often took a totally different tone. I don't think any of them are as bad as RotJ. I can concede that TPM is probably at least close to as bad. As much as I loved Star Wars, in my mind it was never elevated beyond just a fun, simplistic special effects sci-fi romp. I'm in it for the aliens, spaceships, robots, lasers, and lightsabers. On that level, the PT delivered. I suppose RotJ delivered on that level too, but it has an overpowering stinkiness that I don't get from any of the others.
I don't give two shits about these new SW movies. They're fan fiction as far as I'm concerned, and I don't do fan fiction. I got dragged to TFA on opening night, and truth be told I didn't hate it. I bought it on blu-ray when it came out, but when I watched it that time I thought "Ugh, why'd I buy this?" I didn't see Rogue One until it was on blu-ray... eh, it was OK. I'll be waiting for the next one on blu-ray too.
I never got on board the "PT fucking sucks, GL ruined Star Wars" anti-hypetrain. No denying those movies have their flaws, but overall I really enjoy them. They were way more different from the OT that I ever would have guessed. Often took a totally different tone. I don't think any of them are as bad as RotJ. I can concede that TPM is probably at least close to as bad. As much as I loved Star Wars, in my mind it was never elevated beyond just a fun, simplistic special effects sci-fi romp. I'm in it for the aliens, spaceships, robots, lasers, and lightsabers. On that level, the PT delivered. I suppose RotJ delivered on that level too, but it has an overpowering stinkiness that I don't get from any of the others.
I don't give two shits about these new SW movies. They're fan fiction as far as I'm concerned, and I don't do fan fiction. I got dragged to TFA on opening night, and truth be told I didn't hate it. I bought it on blu-ray when it came out, but when I watched it that time I thought "Ugh, why'd I buy this?" I didn't see Rogue One until it was on blu-ray... eh, it was OK. I'll be waiting for the next one on blu-ray too.
Glass Rebel
Member
You not being familiar with the discussion about Rey the same way you weren't familiar with Furiosa doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That entire Mary Sue bullshit has been dominating the discussion about her. It's out there for everyone to find. Even you. You just have to be willing to see it.
ryutaro's mama
Member
ROTJ was the first SW I saw in theaters so it has a special place in my heart. The sail barge fight, speeder bikes and Battle Of Endor were god tier to my younger self.
As a teen, I had a special appreciation for trash talking Palpatine.
RotJ has the highest highs in the OT but also the very lowest lows. RotJ was always the most disappointing film in the OT for me because of the things I feel it does wrong. Saying that, I disagree it is anywhere near as bad as any of the prequel trilogy films. TPM has the potential to be something amazing but once it released, I don't think any amount of course correction could have saved the prequels.
It's not bullshit. it's a legit critique. It's a large part why I didn't like her.
FutureLarking
Member
Well, no, he established more rules in the prequels were there weren't any, solidifying canon. (He'd also previously given his blessing to the relative powers of Jedi in the EU canon). Now, the way George directs and displays those powers in the prequels is dumb as shit (especially in ROTS where 2 Jedi Masters get taken out by old man Palpatine as they stand there holding their light-sabres straight waiting for him to hit them - George just can't direct that sort of action with real actors) but he has rules that he follows.
Abrams didn't really give a shit about making back-stories and rules and want to make movies. (And have actually admitted almost as much in interviews regarding this film). I mean he kept it feeling Star Wars, but did convenient things like Hyperspcaing out of ship hangars and into planet atmospheres and having Rey just do unearned magic.
They could have easily done something to make Rey earn that sort power. But ain't got time for shit and logic - and a casual movie goer isn't going to question. Anyone into Star Wars lore will question it because generally it's unfounded nonsense unless she had secretly be trained in the force when she was younger. (Hey, we might get a Rey prequel a few years down the line that fixes this dumb ass plot point)
ryutaro's mama
Member
I am well aware of the Mary Sue fuckery that is out there.
You have yet to prove it is gender related in THIS discussion.
This back and forth with you has run its course for me.
kunonabi
Member
Not really. She is occasionally underestimated, reasonably so most of the time, before immediately showing incredible prowess at solving almost every problem she runs into showcasing a wide variety of talents that you cant just handwave with her being super strong with the force.
I'm shocked that you don't have the same passion for a sci-fi romp at age 48 as you did at age 8.
Glass Rebel
Member
It's really not. It's just some buzzword you picked up for whatever reason.
I already referred to the posts in this thread. You keep ignoring them. I can't help you with that. Only you can.
Yeah whatever you say.
ryutaro's mama
Member
You referred to that one person that came in here shouting about Rey being a feminist fantasy. I pointed to the majority of people just griping about her being too powerful too soon. The majority of people are not presenting that Mary Sue argument.
So again, for this topic, you are inferring that people's issue with her is driven by her gender but you simply can't prove any of that.
To be fair, it's an easy assumption to make due to historical conversations on this very topic - especially when compared to previous protagonists not suffering the same criticisms at the time of release when those protagonists happen to be male.
Personally, it's only the use of the mind trick which I find unbelievable (and I am willing to let it slide). The rest of the abilities Rey has seem earned, due to her upbringing on Jakku. I find it hard to levy the charge of being "too powerful". Besides, I do not doubt that there is additional backstory to explain her powers. The EU is alluding to stuff on Jakku and I expect her backstory is already mostly fleshed out - unlike Luke/Anakin's in the OT which we know changed considerably over time.
Gunslinger
Member
No one here is talking about "Mary Sue" or Feminism expect for couple of people. Rey is a character in a movie and we are talking about how that character is too strong and defies the SW lore. As in she is too powerful and knows advanced jedi tricks without any jedi training. Makes no sense to me. Gender has nothing to do here. Another reason i hated that TFU character. How he was throwing vader around like a ragdoll and destroying emperor like nothing. WTF? that game was just as dumb as Rey in TFA imo.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Force Enhanced Flying
Force Mind Read Block
Force Jedi Mind Trick
Force Pull (of the saber)
That's a lot of shit for her to pull off with no training whatsoever.
Muffdraul
Member
...or when I was 30, or when I was 33, or when I was 36. I have no problem mentally reverting to childhood for other movies. So go eat a walnut with your ass.
Enhanced flying seems more to me like the force naturally enhancing her innate piloting ability, like it did with both Luke and Anakin without them being aware.
The mind read block I took to be in the same vein as Leia - "her resistance to the mind probe is considerable". Furthermore, I read both her and Ren's facial expressions to be more Ren letting stuff seep out than her going in.
I give you the mind trick - it's the only ability she should not know about. If the Jedi were myths and she had noone to tell her, why did she think to even try it in the first place?
The force pull was a pivotal moment. She knew she had to fight against Ren. And it was more symbolic of the lightsaber than Rey, in my opinion. Ren said that it "belonged" to him, by birthright. It instead chose Rey - a sword in the stone kind of moment rather than the flexing of an ability by Luke in the wampa cave.
Besides, I suspect that she may have had some training already and that Jakku holds the answer to her abilities. Why was she abandoned on Jakku at that specific time - several years before Luke's academy fell? There are two film's worth of answers to those questions and I think it unfair to state she is too powerful before knowing them.
I genuinely believe that her and Anakin's force potential are pretty much equal but, of course, we met Anakin at a much younger age. Imagine if he had stayed on Tatooine until his late teens/early twenties.
Gunslinger
Member
I think they are just trying to make Rey a carbon copy of Anakin. So I agree with you.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Anakin was naturally attuned yes, but Luke had to be talked through it by Ben.
Huh...your Leia point is a thought provoking one.
Agreed.
Sorry but I never read it as the sword choosing her. I saw it as her pulling the sword via the Force.
We shall see.
I think he would have had the force sensing ala the pod racing but not much else.
Good points though.
Gunslinger
Member
It's funny how different readings can massively change the effect of the film on a person. I mean, at the end of the day, no reading is invalid and it's always interesting to read/hear criticism as long as it is backed up by something.
I mean, Rey is powerful. Then again, so was Ren, displaying abilities beyond Vader in the OT whilst simultaneously being more conflicted (excluding RotJ), more unstable and having far less resolve. I guess those things can take a person out of the film and makes the whole thing off-putting - I understand that response even if I cannot share it.
I love you Bobby. You're doing God's work here.
Muffdraul
Member
Next time I'll try to take your belittling my opinion with snarky bullshit with a bit more aplomb.
Are you lost?
ryutaro's mama
Member
Yeah but Ren was trained by Luke himself presumably for many years, before he fell. I think Rey throws people off because she just started doing shit.
Even though Anakin was raw when we saw him in TPM, presumably he was training up in that gap between TPM and AOTC...and BTW, in that movie, he gets his ass handed to him by Dooku.
Rey is the first protagonist in the series to hold her own in the first face off with their nemesis.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Wut?
UnemployedVillain
Member
You're the one posting bullshit like having flashbacks being some unique point worth mentioning. Oh and no, Kylo's saber isn't even close to being as iconic as Darth Maul's. Nor is Rey's theme nearly as good as "Duel of the Fates"
I made the Gaming Side comment because your post is ridiculously padded with bullet points that are either purely subjective or so insignificant they shouldn't warrant mentioning
ryutaro's mama
Member
'Across The Stars' is sorely underrated for the bad film it belongs to.
Gunslinger
Member
I agree it was too good for that picture.
Hey, me too! But I also watched Episode VII on a plane and finished that one just fine.
The Scollard
Member
I think the difference between Luke and Rey (not going into Anakin, since I think he's a badly written character) is less about what they do using the Force, and more how each of their feats is set up. It's why the Force stuff Rey does feels like an asspull compared to Luke taking out the Death Star at the end of ANH.
In ANH, Luke's use of the Force is well set up. Early in the movie, the training scene with Obi-Wan introduces the idea of relying on the Force and his instincts. After that, there is an set-piece which lasts for a good third of the movie, and includes important events such as Obi-Wan's death and Leia's rescue, which allows the training scene to sink into the back of the viewer's mind and simmer. Then, the movie goes into the Death Star, and only at the very end does it bring back Luke using the Force and trusting his instincts, and the payoff occurs. The introduction and set-up also occurs in a very low-stakes situation (blocking shock bolts in the safety of the Millennium Falcon) and the payoff occurs in a high-stakes situation (blowing up the Death Star) making Luke's use of the Force feel like it was woven well into the story, and that the final scene doesn't come out of nowhere.
TFA, on the other hand, doesn't set up Rey's use of the Force as well, which makes her actions feel less earned and more like an asspull the writers thought up when they wrote themselves into a corner. Rey's first attempt and use of the Force occurs in a fairly high-stakes situation (when she's captured by Ren) and the film doesn't go much into what abilities the Force offers before then. There isn't much to her use of the Force that's set up, and what is isn't as well set up as it was for Luke, since there's barely any time between the set up and payoff. Take Rey's escape: she uses the Jedi Mind Trick. If I remember correctly, this is the first time the Jedi Mind Trick was ever mentioned in the film, making it seem like it came out of nowhere and an asspull (again, I might be wrong about that. I watched TFA once with someone who hadn't seen the OT, and when we reached that part, I had to pause the movie and explain what the hell the Jedi Mind Trick did. After that, I realized I couldn't remember the JMT being brought up at all before in the movie). Sure, it was in the OT, but last time I checked, TFA was supposed to get new people into Star Wars, yet Rey ends up escaping a high stakes situation using something explained in an earlier film.
Also, how the hell did she know how to use the JMT? There might be an explanation for it in another movie, but I shouldn't have to wait for a future movie to make sense of this one.
Since the JMT is her first real use of the Force, and it feels like an asspull, it soured me on her using the Force after, since there's not much time between her escape and her fight with Kylo (at least, not as much time compared to ANH). It made it feel to me like the writers were pulling things out their ass to help her. If the time an idea is left to simmer between introduction and payoff is like baking time, then Rey's use of the Force in TFA feels undercooked. Again, what she accomplishes (on paper) isn't much different from Luke (she won by letting the force in; he won by letting the force in), but the fact that his using of the Force is set up while hers isn't makes all the difference in how each of those moments feel. The one in ANH has good set up; the one in TFA doesn't. The one in ANH feels like it was built up to; the one in TFA doesn't.
Again, I might be wrong about the mind trick, so if I am, please correct me and point me to the scene where it was introduced. Even if it was though, I'd still say there wasn't enough time between Rey first trying out the Force, and the payoff at the end of the movie.
In ANH, Luke's use of the Force is well set up. Early in the movie, the training scene with Obi-Wan introduces the idea of relying on the Force and his instincts. After that, there is an set-piece which lasts for a good third of the movie, and includes important events such as Obi-Wan's death and Leia's rescue, which allows the training scene to sink into the back of the viewer's mind and simmer. Then, the movie goes into the Death Star, and only at the very end does it bring back Luke using the Force and trusting his instincts, and the payoff occurs. The introduction and set-up also occurs in a very low-stakes situation (blocking shock bolts in the safety of the Millennium Falcon) and the payoff occurs in a high-stakes situation (blowing up the Death Star) making Luke's use of the Force feel like it was woven well into the story, and that the final scene doesn't come out of nowhere.
TFA, on the other hand, doesn't set up Rey's use of the Force as well, which makes her actions feel less earned and more like an asspull the writers thought up when they wrote themselves into a corner. Rey's first attempt and use of the Force occurs in a fairly high-stakes situation (when she's captured by Ren) and the film doesn't go much into what abilities the Force offers before then. There isn't much to her use of the Force that's set up, and what is isn't as well set up as it was for Luke, since there's barely any time between the set up and payoff. Take Rey's escape: she uses the Jedi Mind Trick. If I remember correctly, this is the first time the Jedi Mind Trick was ever mentioned in the film, making it seem like it came out of nowhere and an asspull (again, I might be wrong about that. I watched TFA once with someone who hadn't seen the OT, and when we reached that part, I had to pause the movie and explain what the hell the Jedi Mind Trick did. After that, I realized I couldn't remember the JMT being brought up at all before in the movie). Sure, it was in the OT, but last time I checked, TFA was supposed to get new people into Star Wars, yet Rey ends up escaping a high stakes situation using something explained in an earlier film.
Also, how the hell did she know how to use the JMT? There might be an explanation for it in another movie, but I shouldn't have to wait for a future movie to make sense of this one.
Since the JMT is her first real use of the Force, and it feels like an asspull, it soured me on her using the Force after, since there's not much time between her escape and her fight with Kylo (at least, not as much time compared to ANH). It made it feel to me like the writers were pulling things out their ass to help her. If the time an idea is left to simmer between introduction and payoff is like baking time, then Rey's use of the Force in TFA feels undercooked. Again, what she accomplishes (on paper) isn't much different from Luke (she won by letting the force in; he won by letting the force in), but the fact that his using of the Force is set up while hers isn't makes all the difference in how each of those moments feel. The one in ANH has good set up; the one in TFA doesn't. The one in ANH feels like it was built up to; the one in TFA doesn't.
Again, I might be wrong about the mind trick, so if I am, please correct me and point me to the scene where it was introduced. Even if it was though, I'd still say there wasn't enough time between Rey first trying out the Force, and the payoff at the end of the movie.
Gunslinger
Member
bro this is the best post I read in this thread thanks for the a well thought out comparison of Luke vs Rey.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
Fantastic post
TFA taking shortcuts is a recurring theme, so you're bang on. The movie covers very little ground narrative wise. There are a lot of examples of scenes in the OT that do a ton of lifting in that regard that have no equivalents in TFA. That lack of narrative is why the movie comes off as a rehash to a lot of people and also why it's not particularly fun on a rewatch.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
The mind trick was the only part that felt too out there for Rey. I was good with everything else. But, that was a real "how did she learn to do that?" moment.
I'm not sure about this, though. I mean no one said they needed to explain everything over again. They didn't need to, and thus didn't.
It also doubled the previous Star Wars box office record. So, it clearly succeeded in drawing in new fans to the series.
He just PM'd me after my previous post:
Star Wars threads apparently really draw out the crazies.
I'm not sure about this, though. I mean no one said they needed to explain everything over again. They didn't need to, and thus didn't.
It also doubled the previous Star Wars box office record. So, it clearly succeeded in drawing in new fans to the series.
He just PM'd me after my previous post:
Star Wars threads apparently really draw out the crazies.
Gunslinger
Member
Very good point. But wait till the Bobby Roberts character see this and tries to push his opinion as fact lol.
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