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To the "Destiny 2 looks like DLC" crowd. Why?

Eccocid

Member
A sequel isn't "supposed" to be anything.

An incremental increase could be all that's required to make a great game.

And, yet again, we need to see the rest to be able to say either way. We simply don't have enough info yet.

If you are not gonna give enough info about the "sequel" at least don't show gameplay videos which (apparently) doesn't look like a sequel.

There are people who says it looks like a DLC and there are people who says "no wait! not enough info yet!"... Well do you see the problem? The reveal was confusing. Videos looked like DLC and all the info we got more maps more strikes etc. I bet there will be 10x times bigger maps with more things to do but reveal video didn't give any of those.

It was some super fast gameplay shots of gameplay which looked like Destiny 1.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
If you are not gonna give enough info about the "sequel" at least don't show gameplay videos which (apparently) doesn't look like a sequel.

There are people who says it looks like a DLC and there are people who says "no wait! not enough info yet!"... Well do you see the problem? The reveal was confusing. Videos looked like DLC and all the info we got more maps more strikes etc. I bet there will be 10x times bigger maps with more things to do but reveal video didn't give any of those.

It was some super fast gameplay shots of gameplay which looked like Destiny 1.

Oh, I understand why a knee-jerk to what they showed would happen, I had a little disappointment with the lack of new stuff actually shown... but I also know that they listed a tonne of stuff that will hugely differentiate this as a sequel that wasn't explicitly shown, and as Bungie have proven they know how to improve their game a great deal with TTK I'm optimistic this will pan out well.
 

MetalGearFlesh

Neo Member
I haven't followed this entire thread so excuse me if this was posted, but had anyone considered the fact that Bungie's new engine will allow them to get more content out than they were able to do with D1. That adds value and makes me feel like more of a sequel in a way. Maybe I'm weird
 

Eccocid

Member
Oh, I understand why a knee-jerk to what they showed would happen, I had a little disappointment with the lack of new stuff actually shown... but I also know that they listed a tonne of stuff that will hugely differentiate this as a sequel that wasn't explicitly shown, and as Bungie have proven they know how to improve their game a great deal with TTK I'm optimistic this will pan out well.

Exactly, the reveal video could be more slow paced showing about new maps let's say they are 10x bigger with quests, hubs, towns etc, some scenes from strikes or even strike bosses but there were none of those ( even they showed we couldn't even understand with those super fast cuts), it was a generic trailer from 90's lol
 

Zakalwe

Banned
I haven't followed this entire thread so excuse me if this was posted, but had anyone considered the fact that Bungie's new engine will allow them to get more content out than they were able to do with D1. That adds value and makes me feel like more of a sequel in a way. Maybe I'm weird

I'm almost certain that playing D2 will /feel/ like a sequel. The inclusion of Guided Games alone is such a huge shake up and will affect how the game plays greatly.

For example: so many more people will get to experience end game content who didn't before because of lack of in-game matchmaking/pairing, this alone will be a pretty big draw.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
It's incredibly easy to understand why people are underwhelmed.
A sequel is supposed to be a big improvement over the original in every way.

224162-super-mario-bros-the-lost-levels-nes-screenshot-jumping-from.png


There's a reason the original Super Mario Bros 2 wasn't released outside Japan.
You could never be able to tell this wasn't regular SMB just from this screenshot.


This however clearly is not Super Mario Bros 1, that is how a sequel should be.

Right. The core gameplay remains. New abilities are added and the gameplay is expanded because of them. New enemies are present and bosses are no longer the same. It's still unmistakably Mario but is equally unmistakably a completely new game.

This is what Destiny needed and with all the rumors and that giant 2 and bungie themselves talking it up like a true sequel this is what many fairly expected.

Not all sequels make dramatic changes but in this case it was needed for many. Even those like me who have spent the equivalent of a month or more working full time on D1 and loved it sometimes.
 

Bizazedo

Member
A sequel isn't "supposed" to be anything.

An incremental increase could be all that's required to make a great game.

And, yet again, we need to see the rest to be able to say either way. We simply don't have enough info yet.
If the main counterargument is "We need more info" to people saying it looks like DLC, then the argument is already failed. You've conceded their point that it looks like DLC to them right now and are saying that future updates will show that not to be the case.

It's a fair counterargument, to be sure, but for the purposes of this specific thread it is ceding defeat.



GhaleonEB said:
Against it are all new destinations, a complete reworking of public spaces (We need to actually see this, so for the purposes of the thread it's going on their promises), bumping the player count from 12 to 26 in them, reworking game flow (Director in the UI, local maps, etc.), (We need to actually see this, so for the purposes of the thread it's going on their promises), the new and revised enemies (we fought Grunts, Jackals and Elites in nearly every Bungie Halo game, didn't make them any less of a full sequel), new weapon types, reorganized weapon slots and weapons that fit into them, a new campaign (said to be larger than the first, and most assuredly better from what we've seen)(We need to actually see this, so for the purposes of the thread it's going on their promises...and they don't deserve any benefit of the doubt here), reworked Crucible with new maps and game types and focus(The problem here being it's also under the knowledge that they're reducing PvP to 4vs4 because no dedicated servers and it makes it easier for them....it's almost a negative except for those who hate high player counts, so eh...), lore/Grimoire brought in-game, updated graphics engine and the clan and LFG systems(We need to actually see this more of this, because the first story mission looked great, but the strike and Crucible didn't look like a huge update visually EXCEPT for the mining section of the strike. The rest, like LFG and Lore, should've been in the first game and still existed outside the game, so it's QOL and not a really stirring point of interest).

That's not expansion territory. We've gotten a big expansion with TTK, and this towers over it in terms of overhauling the game and building it out. And huge swaths of the game are still not yet shown or talked about.

The last part is really debateable, which is why you see so many big threads on the subject. It really doesn't look like it's towering over it to me, for example.

That being said, I enjoyed Destiny 1. A lot. One of the few games I've ever platinumed (because I don't really care about trophies). I'm saying that to make you understand I'm not hating on it because I I hate the game. Day 1, excited to play with my buddies.

The reveal just was not impressive.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
If the main counterargument is "We need more info" to people saying it looks like DLC, then the argument is already failed. You've conceded their point that it looks like DLC to them right now and are saying that future updates will show that not to be the case.

It's a fair counterargument, to be sure, but for the purposes of this specific thread it is ceding defeat.

No... I said the gameplay reveal didn't /show/ us anything, but they /listed/a tonne of stuff that will be in the game at launch that could very easily differentiate this enough from D1 to make it feel like a true sequel.

Waiting to see how content rich the game is before calling it DLC is not a bad suggestion in any way.

Especially when we have TTK as an example of Bungie understanding how to drastically improve their game.
 

Dakhanavar

Neo Member
Why would they fix something that wasn't broken?

The only thing Destiny needed to live up to its potential was more content and more functionality, but of which they seem to be delivering.

It was never, ever going to be a dramatic change from the first.

I'm not asking to fix what wasn't broken. I was just hoping for, as I said, expansion in meaningful ways. New locations are to be expected. New loot and weapons, ditto. QoL changes, par for the course.

I wasn't looking for my version of the sequel. I wanted them to show me things I didn't even know I wanted. But I feel like they showed me things that plenty have people have wanted for quite a while. And to be fair, that's obviously not a bad thing.

Having said that, I wanted to be surprised by the reveal for Destiny 2. But based on what I'm seeing so far, the sequel is very, very safe. And of course it would be to some extent. The die hard fans loved it for what it was, not what it wasn't or maybe could've been.

Honestly, I guess I'm just not the target for the game. I liked the original enough to play it and have a good time, but I didn't sink 100s of hours into it. I was just hoping this one would give me a reason to.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
I'm not asking to fix what wasn't broken. I was just hoping for, as I said, expansion in meaningful ways. New locations are to be expected. New loot and weapons, ditto. QoL changes, par for the course.

I wasn't looking for my version of the sequel. I wanted them to show me things I didn't even know I wanted. But I feel like they showed me things that plenty have people have wanted for quite a while. And to be fair, that's obviously not a bad thing.

Having said that, I wanted to be surprised by the reveal for Destiny 2. But based on what I'm seeing so far, the sequel is very, very safe. And of course it would be to some extent. The die hard fans loved it for what it was, not what it wasn't or maybe could've been.

Honestly, I guess I'm just not the target for the game. I liked the original enough to play it and have a good time, but I didn't sink 100s of hours into it. I was just hoping this one would give me a reason to.

This reads as a level headed response to the reveal itself in terms of what they showed us, and I get being sceptical about the stuff they told us.

Do you know why a huge number of people gave up on Destiny? Lack of content and poor social tools for end game content, both of which seem to be fixed here.

I wouldn't write it off as something you wouldn't get into yet, even with Guided Games alone the in-game experience is going to be so much better (and that's not all we're getting).
 

Bizazedo

Member
[n]No... I said the gameplay reveal didn't /show/ us anything, but they /listed/a tonne of stuff that will be in the game at launch that could very easily differentiate this enough from D1 to make it feel like a true sequel.[/b]

Waiting to see how content rich the game is before calling it DLC is not a bad suggestion in any way.

Especially when we have TTK as an example of Bungie understanding how to drastically improve their game.

Exactly. You're ceding the point again. The thread is "Destiny 2 looks like DLC". You repeated, again, how they listed a ton of stuff that they didn't show. The majority of arguments in this thread are about stuff they showed.

The presentation was bad in those terms. A lot of the stuff they listed were good items....but they were stuff, honestly, was assumed they'd BETTER do (not going to orbit for example) to not be completely useless, so not only did what they show look "Eh.", but some of what they listed was assumed or even more "Eh."

Lore in game? Great, that's cool. Not really a game changer, though.
 

Moneal

Member
Exactly, the reveal video could be more slow paced showing about new maps let's say they are 10x bigger with quests, hubs, towns etc, some scenes from strikes or even strike bosses but there were none of those ( even they showed we couldn't even understand with those super fast cuts), it was a generic trailer from 90's lol
This was the real problem I had with the reveal. It was all talk about the new quest system and lost sectors and patroling, but nothing in action. If patrols and exploration are that different it should have been the focus. What we saw wasn't that different from what TTK added.
 

ByWatterson

Member
For everyone saying the spaces might be huge, they've already addressed that, saying the EDZ is the biggest area they've created "by a factor of two."

So it's twice as big as the Dreadnought. That's...not big.
 
For everyone saying the spaces might be huge, they've already addressed that, saying the EDZ is the biggest area they've created "by a factor of two."

So it's twice as big as the Dreadnought. That's...not big.

Also means the other 3 zones are confirmed to be smaller. For all we know the other 3 zones could be the same size as zones we have in Destiny.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Exactly. You're ceding the point again. The thread is "Destiny 2 looks like DLC". You repeated, again, how they listed a ton of stuff that they didn't show. The majority of arguments in this thread are about stuff they showed.

The presentation was bad in those terms. A lot of the stuff they listed were good items....but they were stuff, honestly, was assumed they'd BETTER do (not going to orbit for example) to not be completely useless, so not only did what they show look "Eh.", but some of what they listed was assumed or even more "Eh."

Lore in game? Great, that's cool. Not really a game changer, though.

I'm not ceding the point at all.

I'm saying the stuff they told us was part of what they showed us, it just wasn't shown explicitly. So while I get the knee jerk to the raw footage, ignoring everything else plus the fact they have proven to understand how to improve their game with TTK is foolish.
 
Also means the other 3 zones are confirmed to be smaller. For all we know the other 3 zones could be the same size as zones we have in Destiny.

If that statement is factoring in zones that we have no knowledge of, what's to say that one of those unknown zones isn't twice as big as the Dreadnought and the EDZ is twice as big as that? :p

I don't actually believe that, but I think that making extrapolations on things like that and saying they are "confirmed" probably isn't as conducive as it seems.
 
size of the planets don't concern me but more of the content in the planet.


Lets take Mars; Mars was the biggest planet in Destiny 1 but it was aslo the least friendly planet to bridge from on area to another and to complete a full loop

Venus and the Moon were loopable on the outside with interior branches with dead ends.
Mars however, lol once you got beyong the Valley of the Kings you would end up moving reall deep to a part of the planet where you hit a dead end that would force you to travel backwards for a lengthy period of time
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
Exactly. You're ceding the point again. The thread is "Destiny 2 looks like DLC". You repeated, again, how they listed a ton of stuff that they didn't show. The majority of arguments in this thread are about stuff they showed.

The presentation was bad in those terms. A lot of the stuff they listed were good items....but they were stuff, honestly, was assumed they'd BETTER do (not going to orbit for example) to not be completely useless, so not only did what they show look "Eh.", but some of what they listed was assumed or even more "Eh."

Lore in game? Great, that's cool. Not really a game changer, though.

As the saying goes: "Show, don't tell." During the reveal, the lights should have dropped and what was shown should have spoke for itself. A game that is clearly different and new yet unmistakably Destiny.

Many of the best E3 reveals have been done this way because of the strength of the material that left no confusion - only amazement and hype - in the audiences mind.

Instead we have Luke Smith standing in front of a giant two telling us what should be our takeaway from what we're about to see. I had a bad feeling when it happened and by the time we got to the end of another familiar story-style mission with yet another Yellow bar "boss" that slowly moves around while you shoot him in the face and boring adds try to stop you, I started to understand why.
 

Ryuuga

Banned
Exactly. You're ceding the point again. The thread is "Destiny 2 looks like DLC". You repeated, again, how they listed a ton of stuff that they didn't show. The majority of arguments in this thread are about stuff they showed.

The presentation was bad in those terms. A lot of the stuff they listed were good items....but they were stuff, honestly, was assumed they'd BETTER do (not going to orbit for example) to not be completely useless, so not only did what they show look "Eh.", but some of what they listed was assumed or even more "Eh."


Don't bother. I was trying to specify earlier that reactions are based on what was currently shown. The core component of the argument of users whom are likeminded is that we don't have enough info to simply hold the views we have now. But we're only reacting to what is currently shown, so it's this dichotomous relationship between reacting to the info we currently have but not being allowed to have those opinions until we the final copy. *shrugs*
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Don't bother. I was trying to specify that reactions are based on what was currently shown. The core component of the argument of users whom are likeminded is that we don't have enough info to simply hold the views we have now. But we're only reacting to what is currently shown, so it's this dichotomous relationship between reacting to the info we currently have but not being allowed to have those opinions until we the final copy. *shrugs*

That's not happening...

I'm saying pay attention to /all/ information, not just the raw footage. Which means we don't know yet exactly what things like Adventures will mean in terms of content and complexity, and that we need to wait for more info.

And if we're being fair we have to consider Destiny 1 at the end of its life after all the lessons learnt and vast improvements, not launch Destiny.

I'm literally saying the opposite of what you accuse me of saying. I'm saying you have /more/ info you should be paying attention to and that we need to wait for the clarification of some of it before we understand the scope of the entire thing.
 

Bizazedo

Member
That's not happening...

I'm saying pay attention to /all/ information, not just the raw footage. Which means we don't know yet exactly what things like Adventures will mean in terms of content and complexity, and that we need to wait for more info.

And if we're being fair we have to consider Destiny 1 at the end of its life after all the lessons learnt and vast improvements, not launch Destiny.

I'm literally saying the opposite of what you accuse me of saying. I'm saying you have /more/ info you should be paying attention to and that we need to wait for the clarification of some of it before we understand the scope of the entire thing.

To be blunt, Bungie doesn't deserve trust after Destiny 1. And the thread is about kneejerk reactions and asking about what was shown. So in that, you're ceding victory to the ones who said they reacted and it feels like DLC with nebulous reply akin to "BUT THEY SAID THERE'D BE UNICORNS!".

That's great. I fucking love unicorns, no sarcasm. I need to see them, though, otherwise I assume they're a myth.

Again, because people don't read, I'm actually on your and Ghaleon's side in this, Zakalwe. I think the overall improvements will make it a full fledged sequel, more than the The Taken King. I am more negative than you in that I think it'll barely get there and the reduction in PvP from 6 to 4 because networking is hard, y'all, is extremely disheartening. I'll be there, though, and I'll be enjoying it.

I just agree / can't hate on people who say it looks like DLC, currently, because it does to me too....based on what's shown.
 

duhmetree

Member
I was initially underwhelmed with the reveal but the more I read into it... The more hyped I'm getting..

This was a gameplay reveal. Yup, it's defintely Destiny...

We have e3 3 weeks away... We have roughly 3 months until launch... drip feed the news

btw anyone else notice the Katana in the reveal?
 

Zakalwe

Banned
To be blunt, Bungie doesn't deserve trust after Destiny 1. And the thread is about kneejerk reactions and asking about what was shown. So in that, you're ceding victory to the ones who said they reacted and it feels like DLC with nebulous reply akin to "BUT THEY SAID THERE'D BE UNICORNS!".

That's great. I fucking love unicorns, no sarcasm. I need to see them, though, otherwise I assume they're a myth.

Again, because people don't read, I'm actually on your and Ghaleon's side in this, Zakalwe. I think the overall improvements will make it a full fledged sequel, more than the The Taken King. I am more negative than you in that I think it'll barely get there and the reduction in PvP from 6 to 4 because networking is hard, y'all, is extremely disheartening. I'll be there, though, and I'll be enjoying it.

I just agree / can't hate on people who say it looks like DLC, currently, because it does to me too....based on what's shown.

You simply cannot separate launch Destiny and the lessons they learnt with TTK, they regained so much goodwill with that expac and proved they understand how to improve their game.

I do understand the scepticism in general, though.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
If I can put my 0.02 cents to this debate, I played Destiny Hardcore

From Alpha on, put in too many goddamn hours into this game

For me this is Destiny 1.75, not completely 2 but not completely 1.5

It's almost a side upgrade with a set bonus if you get I'm what trying to say


The problem with Destiny 2 the way it presented was "Been there, Done that!", that's what I get from core players, casuals, hell even detractors.
What Bungie did say at the presentation was "Yeah, you know Destiny 1 was a Trial and Error game, we learned from it, now let us show you how a fully Remastered Remake of Destiny 1 will look like with some new added bells and whistles", rather than going, "You've lost everything, your environment that you embraced is gone, now you must reclaim back what you have lost." Show scope of the game that presents your game as something never seen in Destiny or if in a Game refined to Bungie standards.

You don't Wow the public by showcasing The Tower on Fire with the 3 same classes with remixed Supers and all and say Yeah we've learned and changed on how to this. Bring out the same enemies with more dazzle now and expect people to go yeah this is new.

That's why everyone keeps saying it's a Bigger Expansion than a direct sequel, cause most stuff shown which we used to base our opinions doesn't relay something fresh or foreign.
Could have gone a long way and pulled a story mission a little more into the game showcasing why Destiny 2 is worthy of a Sequel.

I get all the bulletpoints listed are really good on paper, but it doesn't scream Sequel, it says Expansion+, which I'm OK with

I'll buy it Day 1, already linked my Beta code, I knew Destiny 2 most likely was going to be a refinement more than a true sequel.

Take it this way, Destiny is a hybrid now, it fits in this Games as Service/MMO Spawn (Shared Online), where Destiny 1 had 3 years to build upon itself. The game grew, branched out, and expanded its universe. 2 at the moment with what information we have rather than completely wipe the slate clean or take the good parts, remove the bad and refine it was what most people wanted.


If the Presentation started off in some Desolate Alien planet, with the player coming to realize the loss at hand with cutscene flashbacks inter spliced and the starting of a new journey.
Some things still feel the same yet some aren't, the game shows off its tech, visuals and scope. Use the music to enhance the setting and cater to "Wow" moment that can go viral. Leave the final part a twist that makes you want to know more.


At the moment Destiny 2 isn't doing a good job selling to those that they need to sell too, there selling to the Core and players who already bought Destiny and want to get a rubber stamp approval that they'll purchase the sequel. It's not venturing out and grabbing other players from different genres to come see what it's all about. Ask a Destiny player vested into the game, they'll say Day 1. Ask a player on the fence who knows of Destiny but feels bogged down by the grind and catch to 3 years worth of content, to them it looks like a big expansion than a new starting point. To those that never played Destiny and that's who Bungie tried to sell this game too, well you can see GAF's reaction by the countless threads created afterwards. It did not pull people into the world, The scope that Destiny showed and envisioned is still not there. That's why there's so much divide, cause this game is not bridging both sides.

It's keeping Core and hardcore satiated by refining certain aspects and streamlining the process that causes headaches, but in turn the game is not a new Benchmark that newer players can use to jump in. Destiny 2 is a "TO BE CONTINUED..." Sequel and that's what is the most underlying fault of this game.

If you didn't participate in Destiny, you will not be "up to date" on Destiny 2 going by videos and information given.
 

Bizazedo

Member
You simply cannot separate launch Destiny and the lessons they learnt with TTK, they regained so much goodwill with that expac and proved they understand how to improve their game.

I do understand the scepticism in general, though.

You're right, they did. Taken King was a great expansion. It's just not really what the comment "This looks like DLC" is about.
 
It's a sequel built off the foundation of the original, going in and changing more then needed would be a waste and they are doing what people asked for, more content. Why remake an already good working hud? why completely change how guardians look when you could spend that time making more gear for them?
 

Alienous

Member
If you mixed together Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 footage my first thought wouldn't be "Oh wow, is that a sequel?". It would be "Is that new DLC?". It looks tied heavily to what Destiny 1 was.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
You're right, they did. Taken King was a great expansion. It's just not really what the comment "This looks like DLC" is about.

No, but it's part of the rational why the "it looks like DLC" comments are so silly.

We've got a whole heap of additions Bungie have spoken about, we just need to see them to know exactly what their scope is so we can understand the game and how much value we should be putting on certain things like "only four planets" or "just one raid", etc...

They learnt a lot from TTK, the chances of them messing up D2 launch in terms of lack of content are pretty small.

If you mixed together Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 footage my first thought wouldn't be "Oh wow, is that a sequel?". It would be "Is that new DLC?". It looks tied heavily to what Destiny 1 was.

Sure, but then when you read about all the additional features and content and thought about how they would drastically improve the in-game experience, you'd see this game has a very good shot at feeling like a full sequel when we actually play it.
 

jviggy43

Member
Exactly. You're ceding the point again. The thread is "Destiny 2 looks like DLC". You repeated, again, how they listed a ton of stuff that they didn't show. The majority of arguments in this thread are about stuff they showed.

The presentation was bad in those terms. A lot of the stuff they listed were good items....but they were stuff, honestly, was assumed they'd BETTER do (not going to orbit for example) to not be completely useless, so not only did what they show look "Eh.", but some of what they listed was assumed or even more "Eh."

Lore in game? Great, that's cool. Not really a game changer, though.

Seriously. What makes it even worse is calling people dumb for making observations about what they showed looking lackluster and then falling back on assuming what they havent shown is going to change that opinion. I mean, most people are talking about the product they showed, no one knows about the final game and assuming one way or the either is far more off base than suggesting the footage we got looked like DLC or D 1.5. To the point of Bungie laying out what will be in game via vague comments, that didn't really work out so well last time so lets wait and see before taking them at their word.

And yeah, a lot of new improvements theyre making are fixing D1 problems, which I just expected was a given in the first place. Its 2017 and were going to commend them on putting an actual story and lore in the game and not via a third party app? I expect that, I'm not impressed by it.
 

duhmetree

Member
Also lets put some things into perspective...

Vanilla Destiny >> Destiny 2 is a massive improvement.

The difference with Destiny was that there was an incremental upgrade midway.. TTK was Destiny 1.5... this might be skewing peoples perceptions..
 

Bizazedo

Member
No, but it's part of the rational why the "it looks like DLC" comments are so silly.

We've got a whole heap of additions Bungie have spoken about, we just need to see them to know exactly what their scope is so we can understand the game and how much value we should be putting on certain things like "only four planets" or "just one raid", etc...

They learnt a lot from TTK, the chances of them messing up D2 launch in terms of lack of content are pretty small.

That's the point, though, it's not. Even if they hadn't pissed everyone off with vanilla Destiny, even the best developers can make mistakes with sequels.

So, again, you're arguing "but they know better!" and "They said it'd be great!".

I hope you're right and want you to be right. It's just not a counter argument to people saying that reveal looked like DLC. It's Princess Leia standing on the bridge saying "Hope".
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Seriously. What makes it even worse is calling people dumb for making observations about what they showed looking lackluster and then falling back on assuming what they havent shown is going to change that opinion. I mean, most people are talking about the product they showed, no one knows about the final game and assuming one way or the either is far more off base than suggesting the footage we got looked like DLC or D 1.5. To the point of Bungie laying out what will be in game via vague comments, that didn't really work out so well last time so lets wait and see before taking them at their word.

And yeah, a lot of new improvements theyre making are fixing D1 problems, which I just expected was a given in the first place. Its 2017 and were going to commend them on putting an actual story and lore in the game and not via a third party app? I expect that, I'm not impressed by it.

Please read my posts, I only called people dumb if they were saying things like "visuals look like they've hardly improved, game seems like DLC", or even "The footage looks more of the same, I'm going to ignore the other listed features and how they would drastically change the player experience and just make my mind up now: DLC".

Those things /are/ dumb.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
That's the point, though, it's not. Even if they hadn't pissed everyone off with vanilla Destiny, even the best developers can make mistakes with sequels.

So, again, you're arguing "but they know better!" and "They said it'd be great!".

I hope you're right and want you to be right. It's just not a counter argument to people saying that reveal looked like DLC. It's Princess Leia standing on the bridge saying "Hope".


Sure, Bungie have made mistakes, but they've also learnt a lot and you can't ignore that when we're thinking about how the next instalment will be in terms of content.

You also can't ignore the fact that we have a bunch of stuff like Adventures listed, and that they told us there will be "something to find around every corner".

As someone who played hundreds of hours of D1 and could list is flaws for days, one of the biggest was a lack of things to do while exploring, and they listed a bunch of ways they seem to have fixed this issue. If they manage this alone the game will feel tremendously different.

And when speculating about the quality of the content they told us about, we have to consider the lessons they've learnt like TTK or we're being dishonest.
 

jviggy43

Member
Please read my posts, I only called people dumb if they were saying things like "visuals look like they've hardly improved, game seems like DLC", or even "The footage looks more of the same, I'm going to ignore the other listed features and how they would drastically change the player experience and just make my mind up now: DLC".

Those things /are/ dumb.

No theyre not. Why were the graphics of that starting level so drastically different from the rest of the footage they showed off? I'm more willing to bet that the latter is far more of an indication of what the end product will be, to which, it looks like a marginal upgrade. Additionally, the content they showed off and have vaguely touched upon, feels like DLC. I layed out earlier what I would have expected from a D2 sequel, many others have as well. Maybe thats all in the game, but from what they told us and showed off, it doesn't appear to be the case. So people judging the presentation and thinking it looks like DLC, aren't stupid. And given how many threads are going on about this topic and how many other outlets outside of Gaf are having the same conversation, it seems to be a pretty widespread reaction.

Hell even Jason's podcast over at Kotaku said it feels like destiny 1.5, and they even said this will be akin to either the content of launch destiny or TTK expansion. Either one would be, pretty disappointing imo.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
No theyre not. Why were the graphics of that starting level so drastically different from the rest of the footage they showed off? I'm more willing to bet that the latter is far more of an indication of what the end product will be, to which, it looks like a marginal upgrade.

Of course they are.

We don't know about the scope of the game so we don't know if the lack of a huge visual boost was because they spent resources elsewhere. We have no context, or very little.

We do know that TTK was a huge improvement and that things like Adventures and Guided Games could change the feel of the game dramatically, though.

Additionally, the content they showed off and have vaguely touched upon, feels like DLC. I layed out earlier what I would have expected from a D2 sequel, many others have as well. Maybe thats all in the game, but from what they told us and showed off, it doesn't appear to be the case. So people judging the presentation and thinking it looks like DLC, aren't stupid. And given how many threads are going on about this topic and how many other outlets outside of Gaf are having the same conversation, it seems to be a pretty widespread reaction.

Hell even Jason's podcast over at Kotaku said it feels like destiny 1.5, and they even said this will be akin to either the content of launch destiny or TTK expansion. Either one would be, pretty disappointing imo.

Jason is wrong sometimes too.
 

Magwik

Banned
The difference is when WoW release an expansion it's expanding on existing content. To make WoW truly comparable to Destiny all previous expansions would have to be standalone. This is what bums me out about D2 the most. All new activities, events but in areas that are no longer accessible, raids that are no longer accessible, missions quests that are no longer accessible. We are essentially getting a hard reboot of D1 in terms of content with QOL changes.
My assessment of D2 has and will continue to be that it is intended to be the new base game. A restart button on everything. I don't see them building a sequel anytime soon either. So moving forward Destiny 2 will be the base. Putting it on battle.net also ensures that it will be in that slot for years to come.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
My assessment of D2 has and will continue to be that it is intended to be the new base game. A restart button on everything. I don't see them building a sequel anytime soon either. So moving forward Destiny 2 will be the base. Putting it on battle.net also ensures that it will be in that slot for years to come.

Indeed, this is a healthy way of looking at it.

Before we even actually know the scope of all the new features and can see if the game itself /feels/ like a sequel when we actual play it.
 

Ryuuga

Banned
My assessment of D2 has and will continue to be that it is intended to be the new base game. A restart button on everything. I don't see them building a sequel anytime soon either. So moving forward Destiny 2 will be the base. Putting it on battle.net also ensures that it will be in that slot for years to come.

Then I'm absolutely looking forward to D3, but it's a shame that wasn't the idea from the beginning.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
It's very much in the scope of, say, D2: Lord of Destruction or any xpac of WoW|FFXIV|etc.
It's not dlc, it's not a new game, it's an expansion.

if you look at, again, Diablo 2(+LOD) and Diablo 3 (+ROS), there's no way in hell you'd go "Yeah, that looks like a D2->D3 jump more than a +ROS jump"
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Then I'm absolutely looking forward to D3, but it's a shame that wasn't the idea from the beginning.

If you;re looking foward to D3 then that means you must have liked something about D1.

So, what didn't you like?

The lack of content? Well, it seems they've listed a lot of stuff to remedy this. They've said things like "there will be something to do around every corner", and while we have been burnt before by Bungie statements they have also proven to understand how to improve their game dramatically with TTK.

Or was it the lack of in game social tools? Guided Games fixes that entirely.

What else did you expect?

They've announced more locations, more stuff to do, more features and tools. The core of the game was always going to be what it is, and that didn't need to change.

I'm just a little confused as to what your expectations are. If the game releases and is incredibly content rich, fun, and the social tools make it a joy to switch between activities, then surely that's a game to be excited for?

It's very much in the scope of, say, D2: Lord of Destruction or any xpac of WoW|FFXIV|etc.
It's not dlc, it's not a new game, it's an expansion.

if you look at, again, Diablo 2(+LOD) and Diablo 3 (+ROS), there's no way in hell you'd go "Yeah, that looks like a D2->D3 jump more than a +ROS jump"

The gap between those games was considerably longer in years. Expecting that kind of leap here is ridiculous.
 

Trace

Banned
It's very much in the scope of, say, D2: Lord of Destruction or any xpac of WoW|FFXIV|etc.
It's not dlc, it's not a new game, it's an expansion.

if you look at, again, Diablo 2(+LOD) and Diablo 3 (+ROS), there's no way in hell you'd go "Yeah, that looks like a D2->D3 jump more than a +ROS jump"

KPH1NHH7UT7E1387405514370.jpg


Has the price of a digital deluxe expansion too, who would have guessed.
 

jviggy43

Member
Of course they are.

We don't know about the scope of the game so we don't know if the lack of a huge visual boost was because they spent resources elsewhere. We have no context, or very little.

We do know that TTK was a huge improvement and that things like Adventures and Guided Games could change the feel of the game dramatically, though.



Jason is wrong sometimes too.

If you don't know you can't assume one way or the other, you don't get to use that argument to disparage people on the other side and make it work for your own argument. TTK was the best piece of Destiny content yet without a doubt. But it didn't alleviate many of Destiny's problems with mission structure, bosses, enemy AI-it essentially gave destiny a huge content upgrade which it desperately needed but didn't radically shake up the complaints people had with the content that existed within the previous content. Also, youre leaving out RoI which was essentially a standard destiny dlc expansion akin to those pre TTK-so basing your entire argument off of TTK as being indicative of the ways Bungie changed when that wasn't their most recent output, nor was it indicative of the vast majority of content they updated the game with, is far more disingenuous than those not mentioning TTK dlc when making assumptions here.

We either work with what they showed, which many of us are doing, or we speculate based on the totality of Destiny content and Bungie's history with this series-you don't get to cherry pick a mid content release as the center of your argument because it fits your angle. TTK was good-but it was an outlier in series of releases the base game got and really doesn't have much of a place in the discussion since most people have been specifically focusing on the content they demoed here.
 
So far, it seems like Bungie is making the same mistake and news from what they show. It seems like they made more of a lazy expansion and decided it to call it a new game.
 

Ryuuga

Banned
What else did you expect?

The discussion between the comparison to WoW is ultimately my issue with the way D2 is being handled. Like the poster mentioned I also see this as a new solid foundation for the franchise. What I expected was for D1 to be that foundation. What I mean by that is with the addition of adventures, lost sectors and tweaks to other activities they're striving to improve the activities (or busywork) available in each zone. We are now able to explore the EDZ on Earth, but what about Old Russia? Plaguelands?. What about the other planets which were previously accessible but now aren't? To me that's a missed opportunity to have added value and bolster what they're currently trying to sell us on. Instead of 4 new areas I expected 4 additional areas, 1 additional strike, several additional unique public events. I understand the areas given to us tie into the campaign, but I guess I didn't see any reason why there be less zones to roam around in.


Again, this isn't to say I don't believe those areas will never make it back in. I just expected that as a sequel we'd be presented "now with even more..." "now you'll be able to" "in addition to..." and we mostly got ".. are returning"
 

svbarnard

Banned
hey will destiny 2 actually have flowing capes when you ride the sparrow as seen here? I mean look at this and then see how it actually looks in the game lol.
giphy.gif
 

Zakalwe

Banned
If you don't know you can't assume one way or the other, you don't get to use that argument to disparage people on the other side and make it work for your own argument. TTK was the best piece of Destiny content yet without a doubt. But it didn't alleviate many of Destiny's problems with mission structure, bosses, enemy AI-it essentially gave destiny a huge content upgrade which it desperately needed but didn't radically shake up the complaints people had with the content that existed within the previous content. Also, youre leaving out RoI which was essentially a standard destiny dlc expansion akin to those pre TTK-so basing your entire argument off of TTK as being indicative of the ways Bungie changed when that wasn't their most recent output, nor was it indicative of the vast majority of content they updated the game with, is far more disingenuous than those not mentioning TTK dlc when making assumptions here.

We either work with what they showed, which many of us are doing, or we speculate based on the totality of Destiny content and Bungie's history with this series-you don't get to cherry pick a mid content release as the center of your argument because it fits your angle. TTK was good-but it was an outlier in series of releases the base game got and really doesn't have much of a place in the discussion since most people have been specifically focusing on the content they demoed here.

RoI was good value for money. It wasn't TTK level of content, but it was a good DLC. It was also made by the b-team while A team were on D2.

TTK is not the outlier at all, it's the huge turning point that shows us Bungie /get/ their game.

Also your closing statement is baffling, you're literally saying "Let's not speculate about all the additional stuff they spoke about and the potential these things have to vastly improve the experience of D1, let's just call the raw footage DLC and ignore all the lessons they learnt since launch."

Besides, as I said before, all D1 needed was more content and more features, both of which they have delivered. Until we see the SCOPE of that new content all we have is a brief snippet of gameplay which was always going too look super familiar and a list of stuff.

There's f=more evidence here to suggest they get the problems and have solved them than otherwise, and those expecting a monumental change up from D1 were expecting something that was never going to happen.

The discussion between the comparison to WoW is ultimately my issue with the way D2 is being handled. Like the poster mentioned I also see this as a new solid foundation for the franchise. What I expected was for D1 to be that foundation. What I mean by that is with the addition of adventures, lost sectors and tweaks to other activities they're striving to improve the activities (or busywork) available in each zone. We are now able to explore the EDZ on Earth, but what about Old Russia? Plaguelands?. What about the other planets which were previously accessible but now aren't? To me that's a missed opportunity to have added value and bolster what they're currently trying to sell us on. Instead of 4 new areas I expected 4 additional areas, 1 additional strike, several additional unique public events. I understand the areas given to us tie into the campaign, but I guess I didn't see any reason why there be less zones to roam around in.


Again, this isn't to say I don't believe those areas will never make it back in. I just expected that as a sequel we'd be presented "now with even more..." "now you'll be able to" "in addition to..." and we mostly got ".. are returning"
Why are you assigning some arbitrary value to the amount of total areas that is required before the game is acceptable?

Again Ryu, there are only four planets but if these four planets are rich with content then why would it matter?
 

pantsmith

Member
It's very much in the scope of, say, D2: Lord of Destruction or any xpac of WoW|FFXIV|etc.
It's not dlc, it's not a new game, it's an expansion.

if you look at, again, Diablo 2(+LOD) and Diablo 3 (+ROS), there's no way in hell you'd go "Yeah, that looks like a D2->D3 jump more than a +ROS jump"

I mean by definition, an expansion expands an existing game/client.

A sequel "expands" ideas and mechanics in a completely new game/client.

And not to sound super condescending, because I think a lot of this is colored by the fact that Destiny has basically lived through several cycles of expansions already that all looked like Destiny, but this isn't rocket science. It's a new engine, its a new client, its new content. Thus its a new game.
 
I don't think this is that complex, Bungle talked about stuff that would push the franchise forward in a large way. BUT, they showed us stuff that fits in the expansion model. I think it's s good thing, even if it's a little underwhelming at first.

Destiny 2s success will be defined by how well they pull off three things: storytelling, the new very dense open world, and the social engineering.

Those aren't elements that fit well in an event like this. They talked about those things, but talking about these things doesn't penetrate like a strike video does.

In the end that's ok, ttk started from low expectations for many and surpassed them. I'd rather things start a little more low key and concrete than vague promises of wonder like in d1 early marketing.
 
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