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CTLance · May 15, 2013

I'm really not sure whether this knowledge makes me want to buy or boycott the game.

I mean, I'm not really interested in the Metro games in the first place...

However, devs being harrassed and exploited like that really doesn't sit well with me. The Publisher responsible for these horrifying conditions ought to be punished. And me, as a consumer, can only do so by not buying the product.

Then again, that also cuts off the cashflow to the devs, and they sound like they desperately need and even deserve it.

Hrm.

Dan · May 15, 2013

Lonestar said:
I don't know how I feel about this news. I'm really enjoying the game, and will happily buy more things from this dev, but, who will really end up with the profits from the game? The poor dev's stuck in those conditions, or the management that put them in those conditions.

Or is this more the fault of the country and the condition it's in?

The studio may not directly benefit from sales, but theoretically they could leverage it for a better publishing deal the next time around.

fastballspecial said:
I'm much closer to buying Last Light on principle alone after reading this story.

Honestly, yeah. I've been interested, but I've been distracted and haven't even finished Bioshock Infinite yet, but this makes me want to buy Last Light sooner rather than later.

Poohblaster · May 15, 2013

Discotheque said:
I know. Many other developers should be embarrassed at the talent on display for so cheap (and in poor conditions too).

You don't understand how the free market works. Most developers in the U.S. and Western Europe have an expectation of making 60 to 100 thousand dollars a year. If they can't get that salary then especially the computer scientists will move to a non gaming industry and be well payed.

The reason 4A can make their game on the cheap is because the cost of living is much lower in Ukraine than in the rest of the West. You can earn a higher salary if you're talented but that only goes so far. Much of what you earn depends on the cost of living in the region you live in.

For a example a software Engineer in San Francisco can expect to earn 20 thousand dollars more a year than a similar software engineer in Colorado. If you move the San Francisco Engineer to Ukraine he / she would take a major hit in salary.

Basically what I'm saying is the cost of making a game has much more to do with where the game is made then the talent of the developers.

RyanReedyMusic · May 15, 2013

Dan said:
The studio may not directly benefit from sales, but theoretically they could leverage it for a better publishing deal the next time around.

Honestly, yeah. I've been interested, but I've been distracted and haven't even finished Bioshock Infinite yet, but this makes me want to buy Last Light sooner rather than later.

Pick it up now.

You will not find a shooter with better atmosphere than this game. The immersion is top notch. The shooting mechanics are not perfect but they get the job done. Its just a labor of love and you will truly appreciate it if your a real gamer.

Deadly Cyclone · May 15, 2013

People, THQ was the previous publisher. Deep Silver is the publisher now. Not buying the game to boycott is boycotting the wrong company. Also it sounds like Rubin tried to change a good amount when he jumped into THQ but had a lot of struggles with the laws and corruption there.

mnz · May 15, 2013

Fonz72 said:
I'm sure that played a role in the games cost, but when the total cost was 10% of the cost of a "normal" AAA title, I don't believe that the other 90% is wages.

Well most of your game budget is for paying people. Combine the difference with low costs for social security, rent and other local costs and you got your 90%. They are not better at making games, but make them under way worse conditions.

edit: The more I hear from and about Jason Rubin, the sadder I get. He really seems like a good boss that knows his shit, he just didn't have enough time.

_dazed · May 15, 2013

Fonz72 said:
I'm sure that played a role in the games cost, but when the total cost was 10% of the cost of a "normal" AAA title, I don't believe that the other 90% is wages.

IF the real average cost of programmers is 350$ usd, considering that 75,000$ is the median for programmers in the US. Its not surprising that wages would account for a lot of the difference. I also don't think that a 1k$ chair for someone you will pay 75k$ * (the lifetime of the project) is ridiculous.

Afrikan · May 15, 2013

now I feel bad for being disappointed about them never releasing a PS3 version...holy shit.

They are talented, and I'm excited about their future.

I NEED SCISSORS · May 15, 2013

I've always believed that all artists create better work under worse conditions. Not saying operating in this environment is necessary to produce good work, but there seems to be a pattern in art of more limitations = more innovative thinking. FROM Software with the Souls games is another example of a shoestring budget producing an acclaimed game. Perhaps over-privileged, over-budgeted Western developers could learn a thing or two from 4A, FROM and I guess Platinum too, rather than the other way around.

Fonz72 · May 15, 2013

_dazed said:
IF the real average cost of programmers is 350$ usd, considering that 75,000$ is the median for programmers in the US. Its not surprising that wages would account for a lot of the difference. I also don't think that a 1k$ chair for someone you will pay 75k$ * (the lifetime of the project) is ridiculous.

It is when games like Tomb Raider are considered "finacial failures" after selling over three million copies in a month. Figure $1k multiplied by an entire team, then figure top of the line desks and and all of the other "creature comforts" studios buy.

I'm ironically writing this from a work purchased $1k chair............so yea.

Afrikan said:
now I feel bad for being disappointed about them never releasing a PS3 version...holy shit.

They are talented, and I'm excited about their future.

This is on PS3

Sojgat · May 15, 2013

Was going to wait for cheap, but after reading this I feel like I have to go pick this up today.

Sober · May 15, 2013

Wow, after reading that maybe I should just MetroLL at full price now even if I'm going to sit on it at least until upgrading my PC and playing through 2033.

Been watching someone on YT play the game and I played a few hours of 2033 so I can't believe the amount of talent gone into this game with those conditions.

Burgess_101 · May 15, 2013

nOoblet16 said:
It also takes more money to simply run an office in a city like Frankfurt and another in Nottingham when compared to an office the size of a gym with little facilities and in a city like Kiev. And of the $20 million spent in Crysis 3, a lot was probably used by EA for marketing.

Spending money on developing the game is just one aspect that contributes towards the game's overall budget. Everyone here is seemingly inclined to believe that 100% of game budget is development money that the developers of other more privileged studios seem to be bagging into their pockets. We should praise 4A for their hard work and dedication to work under these conditions, not disdain other developers for having a higher budget than a studio which was obviously lacking funds and facilities, commodities that improve the working conditions and hence increase the budget.

Of course I simply meant in comparison not looking as good as Crysis isn't a point to poke at Metro all things considered.

Grinchy · May 15, 2013

Wow this is just insane. I can't believe people had to go through this to make a videogame.

Amir0x · May 15, 2013

jesus. i almost feel like a little dirty for playing Metro, but supporting Metro is also the only way to keep these guys in a job and fed I guess

Blinck · May 15, 2013

Holy fuck that sounds horrible. I'll have to pick this up now.
I didn't enjoy the first Metro that much so I wasn't going to pick this up, but I feel like they deserve it. Even in the first Metro you could see that it was crafted with love and sweat.

GlamFM · May 15, 2013

Blinck said:
Holy fuck that sounds horrible. I'll have to pick this up now.
I didn't enjoy the first Metro that much so I wasn't going to pick this up, but I feel like they deserve it. Even in the first Metro you could see that it was crafted with love and sweat.

Haven't played the first one, but I'm playing this one right now and it's fantastic.

ak1976 · May 15, 2013

thanks for the article, damn! Well, I'm glad I purchased this game yesterday (new).

mcfishstick · May 15, 2013

Greenmangaming has Metro Last Light for 25% off with a voucher code. You can support these guys without having to pay full price.

RoKKeR · May 15, 2013

I'm definitely pushing up my purchase of this game due to this story. Going back through 2033 right now, absolutely loving it.

Dictator93 · May 15, 2013

I want to write a letter to the guys at 4a and thanking them for their awesome game. It plays like a labor of love (basically like the first game did). The attention to detail is incredible.

Knowing their working conditions... they must really be a passionate (and perhaps even desperate) bunch of guys. Props.

JudgeN · May 15, 2013

Messofanego said:
Is 1/10th like $5-10 million? If so, WOW.

WOW.

You do realize that graphics by themselves are not what makes budgets massive. Its things we all take for granted like orchestrated music, voice acting, artist, etc. I'm sure metro will be a decent game but it will probably lack the extra magic that other games have in other areas IMO.

Professor Pew · May 15, 2013

Dictator93 said:
I want to write a letter to the guys at 4a and thanking them for their awesome game. It plays like a labor of love (basically like the first game did). The attention to detail is incredible.

Knowing their working conditions... they must really be a passionate (and perhaps even desperate) bunch of guys. Props.

If you want, send me a PM and I will forward it to the dev.

GlamFM · May 15, 2013

JudgeN said:
You do realize that graphics by themselves are not what makes budgets massive. Its things we all take for granted like orchestrated music, voice acting, artist, etc. I'm sure metro will be a decent game but it will probably lack the extra magic that other games have in other areas IMO.

You should probably play it before making such a statement.

RoKKeR · May 15, 2013

JudgeN said:
You do realize that graphics by themselves are not what makes budgets massive. Its things we all take for granted like orchestrated music, voice acting, artist, etc. I'm sure metro will be a decent game but it will probably lack the extra magic that other games have in other areas IMO.

Not so fast there...did you play the first one?

Deleted member 80556 · May 15, 2013

Man, I can't believe that there are devs working like this. I think American indie devs have better work environments than they do.

Not to mention that Americans don't have to deal with mafia like they do. I have got to say that both Metro games really have been works of love. One does not do a job in such a condition if one does not love it's realization. Thank you 4A, each sale and good review you get is fully deserved.

Samir Sedlar said:
I hope that anyone of the big names grab them, make them relocate, and provide them with the resources they need, Bethesda comes to mind since it isn't corrupted yet, 4A really need to shine, they did so much with so little, I want to see what they can do with as many as the other developers get.

Bethesda (or Zenimax, whatever. If you go with Bethesda, you have to deal with Zenimax, so it's the same bloody thing) is one of the worst publishers when it comes to developers relationships. Your game missed by a point its Metacritic estimate? You ain't getting your bonus. Obsidian and Human Head are just examples of crappy way to deal with your devs and actually make me angry at this industry.

JudgeN · May 15, 2013

RoKKeR said:
Not so fast there...did you play the first one?

Yes outside of graphics I wasn't really impressed with any of the other elements. Last Light could very well be massive difference.

But my point is simply this graphics on less money doesn't really tell the whole story of why other games cost more.

Hung_real · May 15, 2013

fastballspecial said:
I'm much closer to buying Last Light on principle alone after reading this story.

This

I come from a poor neighborhood in Vietnam and I can sympathize with this story.

In middle school, we had to travel in group of 3 or 4 after a handful of our classmates was smuggled.

_dazed · May 15, 2013

Fonz72 said:
Figure $1k multiplied by an entire team, then figure top of the line desks and and all of the other "creature comforts" studios buy.

Consider that tomb raider and other AAA games are develped over the course of multiple years. That 1k$ chair that will be used during future projects was a very small part of Joe programmer's pay. Office amenities are probably a very small part of the problem.

Sure major development companies could try and replicate 4a's method in the west, we shall see how many quality devs decide to stay on board.

I'd wager that the culprit is having jobs that are way too specialized with little benefit. Like having an intern dedicated to the algorithm for the flags waving in the background or something ultra specific that no one who doesn't spend their time scrutinizing the background will notice

theignoramus · May 15, 2013

JudgeN said:
You do realize that graphics by themselves are not what makes budgets massive. Its things we all take for granted like orchestrated music, voice acting, artist, etc. I'm sure metro will be a decent game but it will probably lack the extra magic that other games have in other areas IMO.

Except...it has a more engaging story and atmosphere than Crysis 3, Blops 2, and the latest Medal of Honor.

KKRT00 · May 15, 2013

nOoblet16 said:
It also takes more money to simply run an office in a city like Frankfurt and another in Nottingham when compared to an office the size of a gym with little facilities and in a city like Kiev. And of the $20 million spent in Crysis 3, a lot was probably used by EA for marketing.

You know that Crytek has dev team in Kiev? :>
They are showing studio here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGjwqBYg0xY

They've made very successful F2P FPS Warface.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na7OFOf_j7k

---
4A should just move to Poland, its close and its cheap by EU standards.

Ps. Cant believe that so many posters here do not know the different between Poland and Ukraine

djshauny · May 15, 2013

They should move if its so bad.

scitek · May 15, 2013

KKRT00 said:
You know that Crytek has dev team in Kiev? :>

They've made very successful F2P FPS Warface.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na7OFOf_j7k

---
4A should just move to Poland, its close and its cheap by EU standards.

Ps. Cant believe that so many posters here do not know the different between Poland and Ukraine

There's a nice stable of devs (specifically FPS devs) in Poland right now. They'd be in good company.

legacyzero · May 15, 2013

djshauny said:
They should move if its so bad.

I'm sure it's that easy.

Doomshine said:
I'm trying to give them my money but Steam is being cranky right now

Have you tried GreenManGaming? It may even be cheaper.

Doomshine · May 15, 2013

I'm trying to give them my money but Steam is being cranky right now

Bog · May 15, 2013

So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

legacyzero · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

Perhaps when deciding on whether or not they would be utilizing it as a platform for their game?

Deleted member 80556 · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

Really. Really? Jesus.

In those conditions, would you really find viable to work extra months for something that might be that hard to achieve?

MiniBossBattle · May 15, 2013

Those conditions sound surreal.
Add that to deadlines, losing work progress on your work, and cold it sounds like a miracle anything got done.

KKRT00 · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

Its not 4A's fault that they had internet outage the day Nintendo was distributing patch for CPU overclock to 3.2ghz

Samir Sedlar · May 15, 2013

Juan29.zapata said:
Bethesda (or Zenimax, whatever. If you go with Bethesda, you have to deal with Zenimax, so it's the same bloody thing) is one of the worst publishers when it comes to developers relationships. Your game missed by a point its Metacritic estimate? You ain't getting your bonus. Obsidian and Human Head are just examples of crappy way to deal with your devs and actually make me angry at this industry.

Really ?!, damn, I wasn't following them till recently when they started publishing games I am into, like Dishonored, then owning a studio that focuses on Survival Horror -Tango- and preparing The Evil Within, and making Wolfenstein The New Order a SP only game, so I thought they were actually doing pretty good with the developers.

Zeth · May 15, 2013

Now I feel bad about my chair

Casimir · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

Their analysis is now 'shitting' over something? I hate to say it but the WiiU is a badly thought-out console on Nintendo's part. It's barely current gen hardware that is going to be forgotten in a few months when the two next gen console's launch. If you're getting angry over the WiiU's position now, the next few years are going to be unbearable.

So what I'm saying is that you're about to feel the anguish that Atari fans felt during the days of the Jaguar, and Sega fans felt...with every Sega console after the stock Mega Drive.

--------------

I was reading the twitter feed of Rubin 'talking' with Kevin Dent. I've heard Dent's name involved with less than pleasant behavior on GAF, but I can't place it. Am I misremembering things?

Samir Sedlar said:
Really ?!, damn, I wasn't following them till recently when they started publishing games I am into, like Dishonored, then owning a studio that focuses on Survival Horror -Tango- and preparing The Evil Within, and making Wolfenstein The New Order a SP only game, so I thought they were actually doing pretty good with the developers.

They take chances on new IP's and single player games that no other publisher will touch. And they seem to allow great freedom to internal studio's that produce profitable games (Fallout: NV was contracted out to Obsidian, a independent developer). But they have contentious relationships with third party developers like Human Head and Obsidian. So, just don't be a independent studio and the relationship between you and Bethesda should be copasetic.

Alexios · May 15, 2013

I hope that doesn't mean they don't have the resources to fix the game's tech issues.

Also the article is praising the game a little too much a bit too early, the jury's still out surely.

Other than that, I hope these guys do well and raise their living standards, I loved the first game.

Fried Food · May 15, 2013

Fine, I'll buy the game at full price.

Dictator93 · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=500621

I wanted to say "forever junior"... but then i noticed.

Durante · May 15, 2013

Bog said:
So when did these guys find time to shit all over the Wii U CPU if they were having trouble even surviving?

Perhaps their living conditions make them less inclined to sugarcoat all their statements.

Reallink · May 15, 2013

Sounds pretty bad, but I'm not sure manual laborers (even in "first world" developed nations) who work 10 hours days in 90-100 degree summers for barely minimum wage are crying a river over folding chairs or generators. A lot of people suffer terrible work conditions and environments. Maybe the real story here are the offices with so much excess they can afford presumably 100's of $700 chairs and unused gyms.

paradise_circus · May 15, 2013

hopefully they can make a good profit so everyone can make a vacation and a good bonus.

Shaanyboi · May 16, 2013

Holy hell, that sounds like a nightmare...

Good on them for turning out what seems to be a real quality product. I'm that much more interested in checking out Last Light now...

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