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Jeremy Piven passes polygraph test over groping accusations

llien

llien

Member
It's interesting whether this could be an answer to "what if accusations are false?".
And if it could escalate, with alleged victims passing the tests too.

It isn't something new, Woody Allen did that in the past, it didn't help him clear his name however, but strengthened his position a bit.


Jeremy Piven did exactly what he said he would do — he sat for a lie detector test to prove that he did not fondle Arianne Bellamar on the set of ”Entourage," and he passed with flying colors.

The Blast obtained Piven's polygraph exam report, administered by a member of the American Polygraph Association with Chapman Investigations on November 13.
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IAlWXPA.png



He also passed more generic "any other victim" test:

4JGQe5i.png



source (the blast)



I must note that polygraph (also known as "lie detector") tests can be faked. It's efficiency is debated to date, with large part of scientific community leaning towards "it's pseudoscience".

Nevertheless, even though not accepted at court, FBI and CIA use polygraphs during interrogations and to screen new employees
 
WaterAstro

WaterAstro

Member
It won't work all the time. You need more analysis than a polygraph machine.

People can learn to control their heartrate. Manipulate their own body to fool machines. Psychoanalysis is required with the machine, but actual evidence is better though not available in most of these cases.
 
Rocket Number 22

Rocket Number 22

Member
llien said:
I've heard of a single "cleared the name" case, this one, where case accuser went so far in details that could be proved to be definitely made up:
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I wonder if in the age of social media in the coming decades hiring a lawyer won't be enough and you will need to provide copious amounts of self obtained/stored evidence to prove your innocence etc... but even though that army guy won in the end he still ended up having to retire.

Scary stuff

T.v said:
Nothing. There's no way of proving his innocence which puts him in a shitty position.

Also, kill jester.
Click to expand...

Jingle is dead, game over
 
X

Xenobureido

Banned
Polygraph tests aren't reliable.

If only people would ignore public accusations and leave it to the law to examine any cases of alleged crimes. It's disgusting how all it takes these days is a single tweet and somebody's reputation or even life is ruined. See Evilore, who didn't do anything wrong, but because people chose to believe what they wanted to, NeoGAF has lost most of its formerly active users. It's bizarre.

I'd wish more people would react calmly to any accusations, following the very reasonable 'innocent unti proven otherwise'.
 
D

Dunki

Member
The problem is even if there is clear evidence that the accusations are not true almost no one will hear about it. Media reports will go to the next case in a day or two. And if there are some corrections they still leave the article and headline up with a small update note at the end of the article. You are still marked in some sexual offenders lists etc.


These accusations if they are not true can destroy your complete Life. That is why I do not like all these witch hunts on social media after one note, one tweet one message. Be rational don't chose sides wait for more informations,

And especially do not encourage Media by clicking of these article fabricated 2 minutes after it went hot on twitter and co....
 
Ecto311

Ecto311

Member
Dunki said:
The problem is even if there is clear evidence that the accusations are not true almost no one will hear about it. Media reports will go to the next case in a day or two. And if there are some corrections they still leave the article and headline up with a small update note at the end of the article. You are still marked in some sexual offenders lists etc.


These accusations if they are not true can destroy your complete Life. That is why I do not like all these witch hunts on social media after one note, one tweet one message. Be rational don't chose sides wait for more informations,

And especially do not encourage Media by clicking of these article fabricated 2 minutes after it went hot on twitter and co....
Click to expand...

I have been saying this since day one too. Shit even the local news will show some person and say they did bad shit allegedly but never come back when they are in the clear and say nope he is good he didn't do the bad thing we said we thought he did.

Same thing with this meToo shit. I get that there are some problems out there but what are the chances that a guy or girl decides to fuck someone over and spouts some shit about them as revenge or just to be a shitty person when there is a spotlight on this.

I think it's a good thing people are being outed but at the same time if they own up to it then ok you are done. If they dispute it and there is no official proof then their claim is just as valid as the claim they did anything bad.
 
llien

llien

Member
prophetvx said:
Why? Polygraphs have a 1 in 5 chance of being wrong. Hence why they are considered bunk science and have little to no value in a court.
Click to expand...

Let's say, agreed range is 70-90% (skeptics to apologists).
It is pseudoscience because results of measurements are up to someone to interpret.
Yet the fact that government uses it quite frequently, including institutions such as CIA and FBI tells me it's quite far from being useless.

It can't be used as 100% certain proof and that's about it.

What else could one do in "accuser says - accused says" case?
 
P

prophetvx

Member
llien said:
Let's say, agreed range is 70-90% (skeptics to apologists).
It is pseudoscience because results of measurements are up to someone to interpret.
Yet the fact that government uses it quite frequently, including institutions such as CIA and FBI tells me it's quite far from being useless.

It can't be used as 100% certain proof and that's about it.

What else could one do in "accuser says - accused says" case?
Click to expand...

How about examining the evidence? Not assuming someones guilt and no trial by media? What if the accusations are true and you subject a victim to an inaccurate test which they fail?

Polygraphs don't hold up on their own and putting potential victims through the process, a process that is hard enough alone to even get people to come forward and say they were abused, is counter-productive. The lynch mob mentality of guilty before proven innocent in the media absolutely needs to stop but introducing polygraphs as a part of that is a terrible idea.

Polygraphs are still used because they can be leveraged as evidence to try and convince an assailant to admit guilt. They are not evidence that holds up in a court.

How effective do you think a machine that measures physiological responses to interrogation about a rape is on the victim?
 
Ecto311

Ecto311

Member
OniBarubary said:
Ha ha ha, this is the New and Better GAF everyone is clamoring for? Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

prophetvx said:
To be fair, it's a little more balanced than the 50 odd pages of "holy shit" or lynch mob mentality against anything that wasn't hyper-progessive.
Click to expand...

Yeah no shit - I said that accusers could be full of shit and not been banned within 20seconds so I kinda like it - there might be actual discussion instead of hardening of the echo chamber.

Also what about this "new gaf" is so bad? I think the conversations are usually thought out and considerate. Not mean spirited or hurtful.
 
D

Dunki

Member
OniBarubary said:
Ha ha ha, this is the New and Better GAF everyone is clamoring for? Jesus Christ.
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What else do you want to do? Lynch him based on what he may or may not did? If you were accuse knowingly that he did nothing? Would you just accept this? This did happen 5 years ago. There will be no evidence anymore. No one will remember etc.

Thats why vicims of such acts need to speak the minute it happens. Then you can sort of evidence then oyou actually can investigate this. Now there is one "tweet" against him and there is nothing he can do.

If he did it and straight light then fuck him but if he spoke the truth is it right to judge him like that? Furthermore I do not know if this is true or not but if this here is true

In 2016, she was hit for a $2 million judgment after her mother-in-law and father-in-law accused Bellamar and her husband of libel, false light, cyber piracy and internet impersonation.
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Why should I believe her more than him?
 
X

Xenobureido

Banned
OniBarubary said:
Ha ha ha, this is the New and Better GAF everyone is clamoring for? Jesus Christ.
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As others have said, this thread alone proves that NeoGAF is a better place now. Before? Anybody questioning such accusations would have been dogpiled until he'd be banned. Vast improvement.
 
Android Kuma

Android Kuma

Neo Member
Polygraphs aren't held up in actual court, but this is probably for the public and the mob mentality going around nowadays. Not everyone knows about the lack of reliability in polygraphs (just look at all those family drama shows), so this may stop the backlash.
 
T

ttimebomb

Member
I knew a guy who passed two polygraphs relating to pedophilia. The investigators on the case told us absolutely he did not do it, even though we knew he had.

Luckily more victims came forward and he was put away.

I basically put no stock in those tests. But I sympathize with anyone who is innocent and is grasping for any way they can to prove it.
 
M

Matter

Banned
Burden of proof is on her now. Polygraph isn't worth much, but it's more than she has. She should just take a polygraph as well. Fight stupid with stupid.
 
A

aaronsan

Banned
Xenobureido said:
Polygraph tests aren't reliable.

If only people would ignore public accusations and leave it to the law to examine any cases of alleged crimes. It's disgusting how all it takes these days is a single tweet and somebody's reputation or even life is ruined. See Evilore, who didn't do anything wrong, but because people chose to believe what they wanted to, NeoGAF has lost most of its formerly active users. It's bizarre.

I'd wish more people would react calmly to any accusations, following the very reasonable 'innocent unti proven otherwise'.
Click to expand...

I can 100% get behind more people reacting calmly to accusations.

But as long as we're so partisan, the left will believe accusations against the right, and the right will believe accusations against the left.
 
U

Ubername

Banned
She should be prosecuted if he is indeed innocent. Where's the rebate people get back for having to deal with this kind of crap? It's absolutely aggravating that these accusations come out everyday when we know a large portion of them are false.
 
A

aaronsan

Banned
Ubername said:
She should be prosecuted if he is indeed innocent. Where's the rebate people get back for having to deal with this kind of crap? It's absolutely aggravating that these accusations come out everyday when we know a large portion of them are false.
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The main problem with this is the challenge of proving someone truly and certainly innocent. That's why instead we require guilt to be proven, usually to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard depending on the charge.
 
U

Ubername

Banned
aaronsan said:
The main problem with this is the challenge of proving someone truly and certainly innocent. That's why instead we require guilt to be proven, usually to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard depending on the charge.
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Even so, how does one undo the lasting damage to a personality such as Kevin Spacey? I'm not a KS fan or hater as I've not been keeping up with the news. But what happens when he actually is innocent and the damage to his reputation is done? The consequences for filing a false police report are surely lesser in severity than the damage done to his rep. This #MeToo shit has created an environment where nearly anyone can come out and say, oh, he/she sexually harassed me, let's all dogpile them.
 
E

Eric C

Member
ONkFg8s.png


According to her tweet that started all this. He sent her text messages.
He flat out denied it under the polygraph test.

That's actually the one thing that has the potential to be any kind of evidence to backup one side of the story.


And he completely denied it. That would seem to me to be a pretty stupid denial, if he knows he really sent those text messages to her. She could easily refute it with proof.


I feel she should now release the text messages if she's telling the truth.
 
llien

llien

Member
Reasoning normally goes along "there are multiple accusers", that chances of a single person making things up (for whatever reason) are much higher, than a group of people doing the same.

Which is indeed logical.

The counter argument to this is that in the infamous "mattress girl" case, where accused was claimed "not guilty" (strictly speaking, case was dismissed by prosecutor, and Columbia University didn't find him guilty), there were 3 other allegedly false accusations.

Three other complaints have been alleged against Nungesser: a second woman accused him of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sex during a months-long relationship, a third student accused him of non-consensually kissing her and touching her at a party, and a fourth accuser emerged in early 2015, a fourth-year male student who said Nungesser sexually assaulted him after an emotional conversation.
Click to expand...


Columbia University rape controversy: Allegations from others (wiki)


Eric C said:
ONkFg8s.png


I feel she should now release the text messages if she's telling the truth.
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Good point, perhaps this is the only part of the story that could be verified.
 
Fbh

Fbh

Member
McFadge said:
I don't understand how polygraphs hold any kind of credibility these days.
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I imagine that while they don't have a lot of credibility in a court, it might help his public image.

From random conversations over the years I get the feeling that the mental image of a polygraph that most people have has been influenced by movies and TV shows , where they are often shown to be very precise.
 
V

valkyre

Member
Xenobureido said:
As others have said, this thread alone proves that NeoGAF is a better place now. Before? Anybody questioning such accusations would have been dogpiled until he'd be banned. Vast improvement.
Click to expand...

Can you even get banned anymore? :D

I kid, but sure as hell the polygraph means something... sure you can fake it, but come on, lots of people tried and failed and the system is somewhat reliable after all these years and refinements.

The guy for me is clear and it sure is good to have some actual proof that some of the accusations are overblown as hell and some of them are even completely false.
 
P

prophetvx

Member
Eric C said:
ONkFg8s.png


According to her tweet that started all this. He sent her text messages.
He flat out denied it under the polygraph test.

That's actually the one thing that has the potential to be any kind of evidence to backup one side of the story.


And he completely denied it. That would seem to me to be a pretty stupid denial, if he knows he really sent those text messages to her. She could easily refute it with proof.


I feel she should now release the text messages if she's telling the truth.
Click to expand...

This isn't really a statement on either of their innocence or guilt, but Entourage finished up in 2011. I'm not sure what year she was on it, but who on earth keeps their text messages for at least 6-7 years? Blackberrys were still a big thing back then!
 
Zog

Zog

Banned
Matter said:
Burden of proof is on her now. Polygraph isn't worth much, but it's more than she has. She should just take a polygraph as well. Fight stupid with stupid.
Click to expand...

Burden of proof was always on her. If I said that you sexually assaulted me, what defense would you have?
 
A

aaronsan

Banned
Ubername said:
Even so, how does one undo the lasting damage to a personality such as Kevin Spacey? I'm not a KS fan or hater as I've not been keeping up with the news. But what happens when he actually is innocent and the damage to his reputation is done? The consequences for filing a false police report are surely lesser in severity than the damage done to his rep. This #MeToo shit has created an environment where nearly anyone can come out and say, oh, he/she sexually harassed me, let's all dogpile them.
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I hear you, and I think you meant to say "IF" KS actually is innocent, right? Because you don't know.

I think it takes a lot of courage to accuse a wealthy, famous person of something false. So I can't join you in your concern this will be abused and dogpiled. My concern remains with minimizing abuse over worrying about false claims, at this time.
 
A

aaronsan

Banned
Zog said:
Burden of proof was always on her. If I said that you sexually assaulted me, what defense would you have?
Click to expand...

I would defend by saying we've never met and I don't even know your name or where you live or anything about you. XD

</unhelpful>
 
Zog

Zog

Banned
aaronsan said:
I would defend by saying we've never met and I don't even know your name or where you live or anything about you. XD

</unhelpful>
Click to expand...

Ok, but what if someone you do know made an accusation without evidence because it supposedly happened years ago. What defense would you have?

The burden of proof has to be on the accuser.
 
Relativ9

Relativ9

Member
aaronsan said:
I hear you, and I think you meant to say "IF" KS actually is innocent, right? Because you don't know.

I think it takes a lot of courage to accuse a wealthy, famous person of something false. So I can't join you in your concern this will be abused and dogpiled. My concern remains with minimizing abuse over worrying about false claims, at this time.
Click to expand...

You have to consider the person that makes the accusation, is he/she someone who thrives on attention, even if it's negative? Or someone who's worst nightmare would be a scandal like this? We live in an age where scandal is an open door to celebrity, book deals and riches.

Monica Lewinsky made 1.5 million on a book deal just one year after the scandal broke, now she doesn't strike me as someone who thrived on the attention at all, but let's not pretend that there aren't benefits to be gained from being part of a scandal with a famous person. Heck, look at Kim Kardashian.
 
cucuchu

cucuchu

Member
Speaking as someone that has taken three government polygraph tests myself due to my career, I can say they are a lot more accurate than people tend to believe. Its a science, yes, but there has been a lot of progress made in that science. To people saying you can train yourself to control your heart beat and such, yes you can but there are giveaways for that and they measure much more than that...tone of voice, finger tip sweat, eye movement, mouth movement, speech analysis, head movement, posture, breathing patterns, and a breadth of physical ticks that people exhibit without even knowing. You will be forced to lie about a few things in every round of questioning as well, and before they even begin the official questioning they will have analyzed all your responses to telling the truth and telling lies. If they notice inconsistencies, they will nag you and hone in on it like a hawk. Its a pain in the ass process even when you having nothing to hide and if you are trying to fake responses in which they want truth, it will be downright miserable for you. (Assuming the polygrapher is a quality one)

It is extremely hard to fake a polygraph with all the bio-metrics that are analyzed and every polygraph administrator that I have encountered is extremely well-versed in what they are doing. They have seen every trick in the book and most can tell immediately if you are bullshitting them or attempting to fake responses. People can watch TV shows and assume they know how it works, but until you actually see EVERYTHING that goes into the procedure (entirety which can take 2 - 6 hours depending on the scope of the polygraph), you really have no clue how accurate these things are. Results are usually analyzed by a group of people at different tiers as well, not just the polygraph administrator. That being said, there are very rare cases of abnormalities in people's responses but that usually comes in the form of results being all over the place and not a clear-cut false-positive/false-negative.

So yeah, not saying its 100% but polygraphs are far more accurate than some people think. Unless you get some bull-shit polygrapher of which I'm sure do exist and perhaps people can cherry-pick unqualified polygraphers to validate their claims... but all in all, a truly qualified polygrapher with experience and integrity can see through damn near anyone's lies.
 
kingbean

kingbean

Member
Ecto311 said:
Yeah no shit - I said that accusers could be full of shit and not been banned within 20seconds so I kinda like it - there might be actual discussion instead of hardening of the echo chamber.

Also what about this "new gaf" is so bad? I think the conversations are usually thought out and considerate. Not mean spirited or hurtful.
Click to expand...

New gaf is less mob like and seems to be willing to talk instead of cast judgement as soon as anything is said. Its kind of nice.

But to the point polygraphs are useless. I thought that fmri scans can show more accurate results.
 
P

prophetvx

Member
kingbean said:
New gaf is less mob like and seems to be willing to talk instead of cast judgement as soon as anything is said. Its kind of nice.

But to the point polygraphs are useless. I thought that fmri scans can show more accurate results.
Click to expand...

It too is easy to influence the results. For example moving when answering questions, even slightly, renders it useless.

There are a whole range of inaccurate things that add up to something that is relatively accurate within a threshold of about 20%. It's a tool that helps paint a picture, but it proves nothing and disproves nothing, simply because it still fails to pass the burden of proof threshold.

Is your average person unlikely to deliberately fool it? Sure. However there are so many factors that go into it, that if read incorrectly, administered incorrectly and emotional factors that come into play that it simply can't be trusted.
 
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