intheinbetween
Member
What do you want me to explain about that? Because I never said you shouldn't be able to vote, I said you should be able to do it following the law, not by brute force.
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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What do you want me to explain about that? Because I never said you shouldn't be able to vote, I said you should be able to do it following the law, not by brute force.
Business
Member
I asked you to explain why the Catalan case is fundamentally different from Quebec and Scotland.
ScepticMatt
Member
Catalida
Catalibre
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
That's good, that's damn good.gif
I disagree. Franco is dead but thanks to our goverment there's still a lot of people looking for their fathers and grandfathers corpses assasinated by Franco regime in unkown mass graves, with our OWN government doing their best to block them, even ignoring a law (Memoria historica). We still have El Valle de los Caidos as a Franco memorial building for his fanboys, hell, even to this day, we pay with public funds fresh flowers for the fucker's tomb everyday. There's no way to leave Franco fully behind with this situation.
About Catalonia, I do think the only way is a referendum, and I'm against independence. It's true that PdCat is doing this shit to hide it's corruption, but don't be wrong, independentism has been present since always, when I was a kid a lot of families already wanted it. This will never end unless we vote.
Not if our government acted mature and started negotiations with Catalonia (yes, after their defeat) for a better integration in Spain. But, if they act like they always do then yeah, it will happen again.
intheinbetween
Member
Then why did you quote that sentence when it has nothing to do with that?
Right now I don't have enough time to write about all the reasons that make them different from the Catalonian, but you are invited to read this article in which the writer mentions Quebec and Scotland in regards to yours: https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/04/opinion/1499187260_703042.html
Business
Member
I quoted your whole post look it up.
So you couldn't articulate a decent answer and googled an article for me to read? Come on.
intheinbetween
Member
What's wrong about their current integration in Spain? I'm honestly asking as I'm curious about it, I fail to see what's wrong with it.
Westbahnhof
Banned
So you disregard the link just because he didn't write it himself?
intheinbetween
Member
Woa, no need to be so harsh, I told you I can't elaborate a proper reply right now, don't worry I will do it later and I will let you know it by then.
If they've got a good deal then what do Span-Nat's have to fear?
This vote will tell you whether or not the Catalonian people feel that the Spanish multination is something they want to be a part of. That's the only thing that matters.
veryslowhand
Banned
For the Spanish in the thread, how high are the chances of this going south, turning violenty and ugly?
Been out of the loop for two decades, used to live in Andalusia, but even back then it was not a topic one talked about in the bar. :}
Hope it all stays cool.
None, I'll be OK
Yeah, not because half of the PP has strong ties with the franquist movement. Heck, last week a minister from the Franco era, whom signed an execution, got a medal from the king itself!
The transition that came after Franco's death was a puppet show, and yes, that still persists 40 years after.
Just like Catalonia
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Came here to say that. But, heh, Gaf.
I hope they get independance. And then Euskadi.
Edit: lol at that ghost edit Mik2121
That's not how it works.
Yeah, it was too much
Catalonia can't expect to split from Spain and still want to get full support either? Unless I missed something, that's what I heard years ago when I was living in Spain.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
A lot of people from Castilla says that, but it's not like that. They want full independence, so they won't have anything from Madrid further on. Maybe there is some historical issues like what happened under Franco which would lead to financial reparation ?
I hope that they would be able to get pass the "Ley de Memoria" and finally break up totally with Franco legacy.
acheron_xl
Member
The world needs more tiny European countries.
For the Spanish in the thread, how high are the chances of this going south, turning violenty and ugly?
Been out of the loop for two decades, used to live in Andalusia, but even back then it was not a topic one talked about in the bar. :}
Hope it all stays cool.
Probably it will turn violently and ugly against the Spanish government more than Catalonia if this happens.
Please stay away from the Canary Islands, we are isolated enough already
7 Islas Una Nación!
Its worth mentioning that polls suggest people are fairly split with this issue, and those against independence are far less likely to vote on an illegal referendum... so this shit is basically a Coup d'état from the regional government.
That said, I wish there could be a reasonable way of settling this issue. I honestly cant see one.
That said, I wish there could be a reasonable way of settling this issue. I honestly cant see one.
deathkiller
Member
As a Spaniard I really don't know what will happen after the referendum law is approved since that law is in fact an independence declaration. Will everyone who tries to follow it go to jail? Will violence happen to prevent that or will the police officers refuse the orders from the central government?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
And those injustices need to be repaired, but again look at the country: do you recognize Franco in it? His social policies are dead. His economical policies are dead. His political structures are dead.
His only remaining legacy are the royal turds. And the Church but let's be frank here - the Church was fucking around the country long before Franco was a twinkle in his dad's eyes.
Look at your examples: a monument, some token budget lines and injustices past yet to be repaired. And I agree they need to be fixed, all of them - but these are the biggest items in the Franco list so he's a non issue.
But abandoning a battle tested talking point is tough - so in 2017 we're still subjected to the esperpento of having him as a national talking point. But this is the same country that not that long ago had demonstrations supporting Pinochet and Castro.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_de_Memoria_Hist%C3%B3rica_de_Espa%C3%B1a
The country have not yet decided who was right between Franco or the Republicans.
It's the same situation in many post-dictatorship countries in south america.
Audioboxer
Member
Scotland had a legally binding referendum in 2014 and voted no to becoming independent. The reason a potential referendum is back on the table is in response to the mess of Brexit coupled with Scotland as a country, because yes, it's a country, voting to stay in the EU.
While you can most likely draw comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia, both exist within their own unique situations and shouldn't just be used interchangeably. Nor should Scotland be incorrectly stated to have "no chance of being part of the EU as Spain would veto it". Any independent Scotland would be legally voted for and acknowledged.
We have our own devolved Government up here too, which already runs large portions of the country independently of the rUK. In other words, a lot of the political infrastructure is there to see Scotland be able to move onto complete autonomy from the UK. As while we have a devolved government, the UK government still decides some things for the whole of the UK which the Scottish government either cannot change or has to do gymnastics to try and work around.
While you can most likely draw comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia, both exist within their own unique situations and shouldn't just be used interchangeably. Nor should Scotland be incorrectly stated to have "no chance of being part of the EU as Spain would veto it". Any independent Scotland would be legally voted for and acknowledged.
We have our own devolved Government up here too, which already runs large portions of the country independently of the rUK. In other words, a lot of the political infrastructure is there to see Scotland be able to move onto complete autonomy from the UK. As while we have a devolved government, the UK government still decides some things for the whole of the UK which the Scottish government either cannot change or has to do gymnastics to try and work around.
Risk Breaker
Member
Oh, I know, I know, I totally agree. I mean, I don't live in Spain anymore for a reason
I'm just saying in an ideal, magical world, a unified Iberia could've been a nice thing for everyone.BUNTING1243
Banned
Was in Barcelona last month and heard about this. Apparently theres a pretty dark history of oppression under Spain, which has continued to economic limitations today.
Of course, then one of the people telling me about it casually mentioned that they shouldnt let non-Catalonians living in Barcelona vote in the referendum, so theres definitely a streak of weird nationalism in here.
I dunno, seems less clear-cut then Brexit, want to research this more.
Of course, then one of the people telling me about it casually mentioned that they shouldnt let non-Catalonians living in Barcelona vote in the referendum, so theres definitely a streak of weird nationalism in here.
I dunno, seems less clear-cut then Brexit, want to research this more.
The article mentions Scotland once, and doesn't really make a claim for how it's different other than in some fairly minute details.
Political situations are almost never 1 to 1. Scotland is just a high profile and recent example, and thus it's likely to be used. Obviously there are differences, but that doesn't mean you can't compare them.
Because the British government played ball. If the British government refused to accept the possibility of a legitimate vote, then I think the situation would have played out differently in a way that made the union less stable.
Catalonia has a local state apparatus as well.
Business
Member
Nah that's not the case. The Catalan nationalism mantra has been for decades now that "Catalan is everyone that lives and works in Catalonia". Everyone can and should vote.
PP, the ruling party in Spain today, was founded by Franco's minister of information and PP has repeatedly refused to condemn Franco's regime. How's that for an esperpento?
Westbahnhof
Banned
Obviously it is the case for some, or the thing you quoted wouldn't have happened..
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Granted I didn't ask my friends who live there for video proof, but here are statements by seccecionists promising less unenployment if seccecion is succesful:
http://www.eldiario.es/catalunyaplu...independencia-reduiria-latur_0_169733379.html
http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/notic...eveu-menys-atur-epa-amb-independencia-4853048
http://www.vilafrancaxindependencia.cat/7-noticies/110-article-d-opinio-2
http://raonsperlaindependencia.blogspot.com/2012/07/rao-47-unica-manera-de-crear-400000.html
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I've actually been told by ANC members that because I don't support seccecion I am .not Catalan.
It is disgraceful that PP still clings to the nostalgic electorate and refuses to condemn Franco and his regime but the point stands: our social policies are what they are, our economic policies are what they are and our political structures are what they are - in spite of PP's efforts, the country has moved on.
Business
Member
How is that "a tour the seccecionist organisations financed with public money are making on the unemployment stricken cities around Barcelona promising jobs for everybody"?
But that is all anectodal? I can say I've been told to speak in "Christian" (aka Spanish language) when I adressed someone in Catalan language and I refuse to put that forward as an argument, because it's anecdotal too. There's a group of lawyers dedicated to collect and report hate tweets against Catalans (the German Wings accident in the alps comes to mind) and let me tell you they are busy, but again that is anectodal when you look at the big picture. Please let's leave that someone told me shit aside please.
UnluckyKate
Member
Some competition for PSG
Move to Gibraltar, just to piss off the Brexiteers pls
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
But that is proof that seccecionists are promising job that they don't know wether they can deliver. Much like brexit's 350 million to the NHS.
Business
Member
It proofs you claim A and proof B. For independentists to claim employment will increase if Catalonia achieves independence... well news at 11, do you think they want independence to worsen the situation?
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Brexit and trump, never forget the appeal of stupid
gutter_trash
Banned
excellent post.
the Principality of Catalonia was their own political entity under the Realm of the Crown of Aragon (1162–1641, 1652–1714)
then when Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand decided to form a Union then it went under the Realm of the Monarchy of Spain (1516–1641, 1652–1714)
and briefly under France.
Realm of the Kingdom of France (1641–1652)
In every point in time in history. Catolonia was never ever an independent country or entity. It always had a bigger brother protecting it and looking after it.
Galicia has more of a legitimate claim for independence than Catolonia, for Galicia was at one point in time its own Kingdom
Patrick S.
Banned
Yeah, about that. A friend of mine went with his car with TF registration plates to Gran Canaria for a weekend, and got FUERA CHICHARRERO scratched into the hood.
Audioboxer
Member
I'm not going to say you're wrong, just there are some differences in sutations. Scotland being a country was an independent nation at one point. It joined the UK. It should therefore always have legal precedence to leave the UK if democratically bills are passed and people vote accordingly. There's actually a long bloody history between Scotland and England as some might refer to as "BRAVEHEART!" "FREEDOM!" with the actual William Wallace being involved, not Mel Gibson. I'm not as clued up on my history of Spain/Spanish civil wars and how that may relate to Catalonia.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Catalunya was joined to the Crown of Aragon by marriage, much the same way England and Scotland were. However, the Catalan Parliament (Cortes) was forcibly abolished as a result of the War of Spanish Succession, rather than choosing to dissolve itself as per Scotland. So if we're doing comparisons, Catalunya has even more reason for grievance.
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