• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!

zlatko

Banned
Again, unless you're posting this to try to justify the harassment, it doesn't seem relevant. Maybe she's immature and thin-skinned, maybe she really did screw over a teammate, I don't know, but that doesn't mean she deserved it.

And I'll note your simultaneously arguing that it would be more worthy of respect if "put her chin up and stuck through it", and that she isn't really bothered by it because she didn't leave early. So which is it, should she leave early or shouldn't she? (Not that it matters she's bound by contract of course.)

Oh I'm not denying she's bothered. She is. That's obvious from the events, but the question is HOW bothered.

If she was as bothered as she is making it out to be, she should have fought to get off. I wouldn't want my g/f in that situation if that was what was going on, and she was still completely stressed and not wanting to be there.

Her staying is her call but makes me question what is going on behind the scenes.

I hope CrossCounter can shed more light on the situation and can bring her on to the show via skype or something so we can hear what happened after Aris apologizing that kept dragging it out and kept escalating the events.
 
BDRvF.png

To be fair he was talking about everything outside the sexual harassment. He said that in a post in the Cross Ass. thread.
 

zlatko

Banned
If everyone thought that way, nothing would ever change.

If you don't want to make it your fight, fine, but some of us feel compelled to fight misogyny and sexual harassment because it needs to be stamped out.

I'm just of the mind that if someone is like that, then I don't associate with them or support them in anyway.

My way of fighting things I don't agree with, is to not feed it attention. If someone was a racist asshole next to me, I'd walk away. Have an argument over it? No fuck that. Enjoy being by your lonesome ass self with your backwards thinking. Same with misogyny.
 
If you were keeping up, you would know none of the FGC members are condoning it. Its about knowing the whole situation. People in this thread who aren't members of the community have already picked up torches and pitchforks, and its either 'you completely hate Aris and admit the FGC is a bunch of manbabies' or you get lynched. Any attempt to bring up information not covered in the articles is met with statements like 'Sure. Blame the victim.'

Even in the other thread, where most of us have known these people for a while, we were told not to jump to conclusions by long standing representatives of the community like Markman and Arturo Sanchez (both amazing dudes and Gaffers). Markman and the Fingercramp guys has even contacted Patrick Klepek and Patrick has supposedly agreed to amend the article based on inputs from these guys.

Then there are the guys who have worked on the show like Blurei (another Gaffer) who insist that there are a lot of things that happened behind the scenes that weren't shown on stream. These things include Aris apologizing, and Capcom supposedly dealing with the situation.

Also, there are no archives for the stream chat. The stream chat is important is because a lot of Aris' behavior was to entertain the stream chat. The stream chat is a vocal minority, but its easy to read the chat and think that the views of the stream monsters represent the views of everyone who's watching the stream. Aris is a douche, yes. He's a dick. But he isn't as big as a creep as the articles make him out to be.

Yet, I just know someone's going to quote that last line I just typed and going to say 'That's no defense, douchebag.'. People are angry. People want heads to roll. People don't want to understand the whole situation before dealing out the punishment.


So many stereotypes in 1 comment.
Some people were defending it and they've certainly been a part of the scene for a bit even if they don't have any real power like Haunts, UltraDavid or Valle. Most folks who saw this stuff going on didn't think it was right though. A big chunk of folks thought it went too far when they saw that Miranda and Slayer felt uncomfortable about the whole thing.
 

stupei

Member
Sorry, I didn't have knowledge of deleted tweets. Which again, echos why I was saying I didn't want to comment on this topic at all, because bits and pieces of the puzzle are missing. These pieces not missing obviously, but are deleted to be available for all curious.

And yes, Da fuck is this shit is that I have more respect for females like BurnYourBra and Sherry for being in the community and taking the bull shit in a stride. Females aren't the only one getting the same kind of dumb treatment either. Guys like Marn get it too. Does it make it right? No of course not, but I'm not going to preach change, because I don't feel its my place to do so. If someone was sexually harassing ME at an event I won to get into for $25,000, then I would first try to squash it with that person and say if you keep this shit up, then I'm talking to Capcom and getting you booted off because this is unacceptable.

Again, what he did to her 100% not cool. Her handling of the situation though? Not the best.

You're acting like this was just some dude at an event or in a stream, though. This was the team leader, who was being presented as someone in at least a figurative position of authority who is supposed to have her back. That is who is actively making her uncomfortable; not just some random guy she can ignore or someone trash talking because they're going against each other. She has other tweets indicating that she talked to him, he seemingly apologized, she thought things were cool, but that wasn't the end of it. He then goes on to say on a live stream that essentially not only is he not really sorry at all, he also thinks that the stuff that makes her uncomfortable and unhappy is the defining trait of a community she considers herself a part of. So yeah, it seems clear diplomacy wasn't working.

It's cool that you feel like you could easily brush that off and wouldn't have let it get to you, but if the fact is that she was disgusted and wanted to leave (as her tweets imply) but literally couldn't, then throwing in the towel is about the only option left to indicate that she's not okay with the situation.

To be fair he was talking about everything outside the sexual harassment. He said that in a post in the Cross Ass. thread.

Well certainly he couldn't clarify that on twitter since that would be acknowledging the problem publicly. Wouldn't want that.
 
Guys like Marn get it too. Does it make it right? No of course not, but I'm not going to preach change, because I don't feel its my place to do so. If someone was sexually harassing ME at an event I won to get into for $25,000, then I would first try to squash it with that person and say if you keep this shit up, then I'm talking to Capcom and getting you booted off because this is unacceptable.

Again, what he did to her 100% not cool. Her handling of the situation though? Not the best.

First of all, whether or not some females are okay with this treatment doesn't mean that they should have to be.

And, are you really trying to compare the shit that Marn gets with full-on sexual harassment? Huh.

And if you believe what she said, one of her deleted tweets said that she believed that everyone there knew what was going on and wouldn't stop it. If you feel like the people in charge won't help you and you're contractually obligated to stay, that would be pretty shitty.

Plus, how material is whether or not her handling of the situation was, ultimately? Does it somehow make wrong things right?

It feels like there are members of the community that are more interested in dealing with smaller details that don't change the fundamental facts of the situation rather than asking why it happened, whether or not the scene encourages this kind of behavior, and how it can be curbed.
 

Dead Man

Member
I'll say this much...

I think quite a few people in the community do have legitimate issues they need to work out if they want more women to join the scene. Some people want to pretend that Aris is an isolated case and he isn't imo. He certainly doesn't represent a majority or even a sizable minority though, but it's there and it needs to be addressed over time just like all the other issues the FGC has dealt with over time.

Yeah, seems like the case to me.
 
Oh I'm not denying she's bothered. She is. That's obvious from the events, but the question is HOW bothered.

If she was as bothered as she is making it out to be, she should have fought to get off. I wouldn't want my g/f in that situation if that was what was going on, and she was still completely stressed and not wanting to be there.

Her staying is her call but makes me question what is going on behind the scenes.

Oh so you are engaging in classic victim-blaming. Nice.

First, I'll note that if she did fight to get off, by your previous post, you would lose respect for her because she isn't sucking it up and sticking through. So in your eyes she loses either way. Classy.

Second, victims of abuse and harassment often get confused and unsure of what to do next--they don't know if they should report it to someone, they're afraid of the reaction they'll get, or of being slut-shamed (you're not helping in that regard). Maybe she wants to get off but can't. Maybe she's already tried. Maybe she thinks it would reflect poorly on her if she did. I don't know and neither do you, but none of that is any reason whatsoever to condone what happened or mitigate the responsibility of those who harassed her at all. It doesn't justify what happened. It doesn't mean she deserved it. So it's really irrelevant to the larger question of what to do about this sort of behavior and what the community should do to police it.

By continually bringing up her post-event behavior as if it might somehow make her complicit you're just victim-blaming.
 
Beard + Brown? Terrorist.

Just like how Black + Fitted Cap = Thug, amirite? Sigh...

<cops> you fit the description
<profiledperson> here we go again


The big question is: what should be done to prevent future incidents like this from occuring?

there's a saying... my graeat grandma said it, and i'm sure many people's great grandparents and grandparents told them the same thing...

"act like you got some sense"
 
Does anyone know why Capcom is trying to run a "reality show" without representing the reality then? If they really want to go with a reality show format, those sort of things seem like what you are expected to show to the audience, since it is as much about the interactions between the participants as well as the competition itself. Does Capcom just suck?

We don't have the man power to do all this. We can only film so much, as well as edit video, getting promos ready, all that. We try the best we can.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
Ono, megaman face and something else he mention. I forgot and not bored enough to look it up again.
Sounds like marketing gold.

Truthfuly though, to echo what I said earlier, no publicity is bad publicity in Capcom's eyes. From Poison to the managing of the players (you do etiquette when you're putting someone on air to represent you, normally), they're really hitting that mantra hard.

Take a few more pages from Acclaim, Capcom.
 
To be fair too, Miranda is not 100% innocent in all of this situation

oh god, here we go. this is a fucking stupid post for any number of reasons, but i'd like to highlight just one:

Sherry also said, that if she really had issues with Aris, she could have just gone up to him and been direct with him, but her problem was that she wasn't confrontational and so she said that is why Aris kept messing with her.

you think it's fair to put the onus on the woman being belittled to be the one to have to ask king shit of turd mountain to stop creeping on her, while he was busy lording over his shitty little fiefdom? there are sycophantic twits in this goddamn thread white knighting for the guy. you think that would be a safe environment for her to step up? are you really that oblivious?
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
She obviously can't speak her mind. Maybe she really can't deal with it, feels like she's obligated to shut up, feels like she has to swallow it as a real fighter.

Maybe she's dumb as a brick. Maybe she's frozen in the headlights. Heck, I don't know.

If you drill down, to me, this is not really about how she handles it though. I don't give a shit about her as a person, I don't even know her, and I'm not the white-knighting type.

It's about how crazy it is that there's even a discussion about the acceptability of such talk. It's about what this speaks of to outsiders, what they obviously will think about gaming tournaments, and maybe even gamers in general, for at least the next half year if they catch wind. It's about why companies are shying away from stomping on heads, or are at least hesitant, when it's evidently for the greater good.

Real talk: If I were in the position, I would've shut the show down right there to sort it out. Even if it meant risking my job. And I don't get why this didn't happen.

You can't present the weather forecast and casually congratulate the female anchor on her great tits without breaking the whole news airing. That's the standard, no, that's the lower bound I'm expecting.
 

PKrockin

Member
Wow. OK, maybe my experience was exceptional or something, but I don't remember anything like this in the Smash Bros. community. What is this garbage?
 

ThirtyDegrees

Neo Member
I'm just of the mind that if someone is like that, then I don't associate with them or support them in anyway.

My way of fighting things I don't agree with, is to not feed it attention. If someone was a racist asshole next to me, I'd walk away. Have an argument over it? No fuck that. Enjoy being by your lonesome ass self with your backwards thinking. Same with misogyny.

It's really great to have that ability to walk away when something is being done near you in a space where you have that choice instead of having it done to you, especially in a space where you might not have the chance to get away.

People that don't experience bigotry do nobody any favors by "ignoring it" you tacitly aid the bigots by doing that.

You're not fighting anything, you're being a coward and allowing it to continue.
 

obonicus

Member
The big question is: what should be done to prevent future incidents like this from occuring?

Stop pandering. The audience thinks Aris' shenanigans are hilarious (they certainly did when he kept coming onto Kayo Police during evo). Don't encourage them. In fact, don't engage with the stream chat at all. If the FGC's position now is that the stream chat does not represent the FGC community at all, then they shouldn't engage it, either (I'd go further and assign moderators and keep stream chat policed, but there may not be resources for that, and moderating is a thankless job).

If a member accuses another of harassment, do something about it. Aris' behavior was documented on video. Why was he even there on day 2?
 

duckroll

Member
We don't have the man power to do all this. We can only film so much, as well as edit video, getting promos ready, all that. We try the best we can.

Sounds like Capcom might have bitten off more than they could chew then. Not belittling your efforts here, just saying that the situation could definitely be handled better. Capcom's intention for the show was to show the "raw" side of a fighting tournament, and it looks like they made a poor selection with Aris which resulted in the events going in a direction which they probably didn't expect that they would have to deal with, and so they couldn't deal with it well.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Some people in here still don't know how to pick their battles.

The big question is: what should be done to prevent future incidents like this from occuring?
Brief public shaming and removal from positions of visibility and representation. I like offensive humor as much as the next guy, but when someone is informed that they've crossed a line but are a little too dense to take the hint right away then they just need to receive the cold shoulder for a while.
 
Just for people wondering, she has said in her tweets that she's made promises not to do interviews for now so if you're wondering why we're not getting a more in-depth interview with her about all this, that's why.
 

Ramune

Member
SMH. We have long way to go. This isn't limited to the FGC either. When you are actually making someone uncomfortable KNOWINGLY, and you keep going with it...no words. &#65288;&#8722;&#65343;&#8722;&#65307;&#65289;
 

Riposte

Member
Some people in here still don't know how to pick their battles.


Brief public shaming and removal from positions of visibility and representation. I like offensive humor as much as the next guy, but when someone is informed that they've crossed a line but are a little too dense to take the hint right away then they just need to receive the cold shoulder for a while.

Does winning tournaments count as visibility? What about making useful informative podcasts/youtube videos, etc, that get posted a lot?
 
Anyone defending the sexual harassment because the victim "isn't completely innocent" is pathetic. Take this scenario out of the FGC into anywhere else. It automatically becomes insanity to defend Aris. Everyone is rationalizing their defense because they think Aris is funny or they don't like Jared or hate eSports or something but it isn't even related. Could she have "spoken up about it earlier" is irrelevant. People just shouldn't act like that. It's 2012 for Christ's sake, who doesn't know better? I have serious doubts even the defenders would ever dare say the things Aris did or encourage it in person and it just doesn't make sense to me to associate with that.
 

sephi22

Member
you think that would be a safe environment for her to step up? are you really that oblivious?

Do you think Aris is a knife wielding, lustful, drunk homeless guy in an alley?
This isn't a shady tournament in the back room of a game store. This show is taking place in Capcom offices. A lot of people working on this are friends with each other. There's Capcom staff present. There are penalties for swearing on camera. Those guys are trying to be as professional as they can.

I'm not arguing with the rest of your points, just this point. This is not a threatening environment. Is she wanted to, she could have easily reached out to the producers or just straight up told Aris to back the fuck up. Whether she did that or not, I do not know. There are conflicting reports. The people who were asking Aris to mess with her would have just moved on to their next source of entertainment if he would have stopped messing with Miranda.
 
Just for people wondering, she has said in her tweets that she's made promises not to do interviews for now so if you're wondering why we're not getting a more in-depth interview with her about all this, that's why.


Heard a rumor that she was going to do an interview with FGTV...not sure how reliable that is.

But regardless, its best to wait and see on how this was handled. There are plenty of people in the know that haven't said anything. (arturo, aris, miranda, other contestant) I have a feeling more information will be given at a later date.
 

hamchan

Member
Giant Bomb article is well written. Good job Patrick. This Aris guy is scum. Hopefully no one is defending him or justifying his actions.
 

Grecco

Member
Sounds like Capcom might have bitten off more than they could chew then. Not belittling your efforts here, just saying that the situation could definitely be handled better. Capcom's intention for the show was to show the "raw" side of a fighting tournament, and it looks like they made a poor selection with Aris which resulted in the events going in a direction which they probably didn't expect that they would have to deal with, and so they couldn't deal with it well.

It was a reality show not a tournament. These things tend to prefer " personalities " cause they cause controversy which equal ratings. The rules were so silly that it's barely a tournament
 

zlatko

Banned
Stupei and PsychoSoldier both bring great points.

Psycho on the point of yeah if all the people around her really weren't out to help when she was bringing it up or make the situation go away when she did voice up, then that would give you a cause for being confused and a bit lost on how to act after that.

Also, your point of the interest in smaller details is right on my bad. The bigger focus is like you said on why it happened(which we know), if the scene encourages this(tough to say), and how it can be curbed.(also unsure)

As for Stupei, you also make a great point on that Aris is indeed the coach. As a coach in general he sucked too, so it's a shame these contracts couldn't have allowed for maybe getting him replaced by someone with a more level head for that spot like maybe RIP from the Tekken community.

It also makes more sense now for her throwing in the towel considering she couldn't leave. She just wanted to wash her hands free of the whole situation as best as she could then to probably avoid Aris any further. If I had known earlier before my posts of the deleted contract posts it would've probably helped a bit to not make myself come off as a dip shit. Which I'm sorry about, but that was just missing info.

@faceless

No. Considering the events I would've been fine with her fighting to get off. That would've made sense to me actually, because like I had said if it was a female I knew in the situation, I'd not want her to be somewhere she is clearly not comfortable with.

Also, as stated, I was missing the info about the contract keeping her there, which now lets me know it is out of her hands to do that. So her staying is not by choice, which does earn her some respect, because she is in fact toughing it out in a super shitty situation I wouldn't want anyone to be in.

And at what point did I condone Aris? None. I've been 100% against what he did, and I'm also not fine with what has been shown of Capcom's handling that we know about. I feel like if she asked to be let go, they should've really tried to break the contract for her because it is more than likely in their power to do so. If they did all they could, then great on them, but I don't know if they did.

As for the final point on what the community should do to police this kind of behavior, I don't know. Hopefully something is done about it.

Finally, @ ViewtifulJC

homeboy <3

You're right. I stepped on my own toes with too quick of posting and not putting in more thought.

If I came off as an idiot peeps, sorry.

#stay free me
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Does winning tournaments count as visibility? What about making useful informative podcasts/youtube videos, etc, that get posted a lot?
I'm thinking more along the lines of the EVO commentary booth. Spectator/PR related stuff.
 
ah yes, the frequently successful tactic of getting bullies to fuck off by letting them know how much they're getting under your skin. you've really got this whole sexism thing figured out, dimwit.
 

obonicus

Member
Just for people wondering, she has said in her tweets that she's made promises not to do interviews for now so if you're wondering why we're not getting a more in-depth interview with her about all this, that's why.

Arturo apparently asked them not to talk to anyone, in a misguided attempt to let things cool down. And the production company seems not to want to make any statements for a similar reason. Of course, then you get the PA piece coming to the conclusion that Miranda had been sexually harassed for days. (I believe Capcom got Aris to cut down on that crap, so that statement likely isn't correct -- but it's not an outrageous conclusion to come to based on the evidence, and the fact that no one's talking. Except for Capcom, which actually apologized for what happened.)
 

shaowebb

Member
I'm glad this became its own thread because the Cross Assault thread is like 200 pages and I couldn't get the full story out of anyone there or over stream chats for all the rapid fire posts.

Now that I know whats been going on and what was said and how it was said my opinion is this. Shut the show down. This hurts Capcom. Props to the girl who forfeited because theres no point playing for people that would support that and disrespect you, props to saying Sexual Harassment is not welcome in ANY community and standing up for this stance.

We're not 12 year olds and girls don't have the cooties. Maybe Aris just sucks at arguing that people getting loud and yelling out random trash talk is part of fighting game scenes, but even still no one likes to be on the receiving end of that shit in any form. And arguing FOR sexual harassment is pure idiocy in any shape or form even if you were only meaning to be pro-Trash Talk which is only really tolerable if folks are obviously joking or overplaying character rivalry amongst the game cast to be honest. Its kind of a bit off putting when folks literally start to hate each other or rant on strangers for simply being good at something. Where is the fun in that? All I see is spite and malice.

Me I could do without a scene that hates you when you first arrive. I know Fighting-gaf welcomed me and were glad to have someone new to talk with and show some of the ropes. We butted heads occasionally, but in the end we all kind of try to avoid arguments or cruelty because theres no fun in it. We all have more fun when its more welcoming even when you lose. Hell me and God's Beard even get along now once I learned to calm the fuck down lol.

No Aris...you're wrong and sexual harassment isn't a good thing or needed in any community and if its there it should change. Hating on things verbally while you play makes it hard to feel like you love anything. Keep it classy, and respect everyone of EITHER gender for wanting to be a part of things man.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
The people who were asking Aris to mess with her would have just moved on to their next source of entertainment if he would have stopped messing with Miranda.

Well, that would really have been problematic, wouldn't it?

When one says "Pick your battles wisely", that also means that sometimes, you really should pick the battle because it would be wise to do so.

I'm fuming here.
 
I'm not arguing with the rest of your points, just this point. This is not a threatening environment.

an environment doesn't have to be physically intimidating to have an asymmetrical balance of power. that's the point i was making: even people in this thread, far removed from the location of the incident, are willing to defend the guy. it's likely that at the epicenter of the thing that defensiveness would be even more pronounced. she was not the one holding the cards in that scenario, aris and the other bigshots were.
 

sephi22

Member
Well, that would really have been problematic, wouldn't it?
When one says "Pick your battles wisely", that also means that sometimes, you really should pick the battle because it would be wise to do so.
I'm fuming here.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.
 

JudgeN

Member
I'm curious but what all did Aris actually do that is considered sexual harassment?I know he talked about her thighs alot and asked her what her bra size was but the amount of attention this is getting seems like I must have missed something. I know the stream chat was off the chain but stream monsters are stream monsters.

While I do think he was in the wrong the thighs/bra stuff is very high school level silly shit. I assuming i'm missing something else.
 
Sounds like Capcom might have bitten off more than they could chew then. Not belittling your efforts here, just saying that the situation could definitely be handled better. Capcom's intention for the show was to show the "raw" side of a fighting tournament, and it looks like they made a poor selection with Aris which resulted in the events going in a direction which they probably didn't expect that they would have to deal with, and so they couldn't deal with it well.

Your views of what the intention of how the show should have been differ greatly than ours.
 
Arturo apparently asked them not to talk to anyone, in a misguided attempt to let things cool down. And the production company seems not to want to make any statements for a similar reason. Of course, then you get the PA piece coming to the conclusion that Miranda had been sexually harassed for days. (I believe Capcom got Aris to cut down on that crap, so that statement likely isn't correct -- but it's not an outrageous conclusion to come to based on the evidence, and the fact that no one's talking. Except for Capcom, which actually apologized for what happened.)

While she may not be reading things with a fine-tooth comb and agreeing with every detail she did say the PA article was pretty accurate.
 

sephi22

Member
I'm curious but what all did Aris actually do that is considered sexual harassment?I know he talked about her thighs alot and asked her what her bra size was but the amount of attention this is getting seems like I must have missed something. I know the stream chat was off the chain but stream monsters are stream monsters.

While I do think he was in the wrong the thighs/bra stuff is very high school level silly shit. I assuming i'm missing something else.
Basically reading the stream chat aloud and directing the chat's questions at her.
 
I'm curious but what all did Aris actually do that is considered sexual harassment?I know he talked about her thighs alot and asked her what her bra size was but the amount of attention this is getting seems like I must have missed something. I know the stream chat was off the chain but stream monsters are stream monsters.

While I do think he was in the wrong the thighs/bra stuff is very high school level silly shit. I assuming i'm missing something else.

Sadly Miranda seemed like she was playing along for some of the "sexual harassment". I mean its hard to be so sure that she was so against it when after the immediate act in question she talks about korean penises with the stream chat.

That stuff is creepy as fuck, seriously.

Except it was (imo) a big portion of stream monsters doing it. They made a tumblr called Miranda's Thighs. There is even some pictures made in the neogaf cross ass. thread if you're willing to look. Stream chat definitely played a large role in this whole debacle.
 
Top Bottom