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XCOM: Enemy Unknown gameplay footage
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I agree with what Neuromancer already said.
They confirmed that this is not a small budget "niche" game, so it is pretty much guaranteed that they've taken the "accessibility factory" with great care.
Guess this video hasn't been posted. Ginxtv interview with gameplay bits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdPBEGYwoQ&feature=related
You are missing the forest for the trees. There is no reason why the scenario that you referenced can't be contained in a move-action system. Any minor marginal gain in flexibility is swamped by the increased accounting burden. Moreover, the is still an optimal solution for each scenario. TUs don't change that; they just increase the likelihood that the mechanics of the rule set lead to sub-optimal decisions based on obfuscation.
Look, I have worked with leading complexity and chaos theory researchers to decision AI decision algorithm trust me on this.
Also, previews have given examples of how level progression modifies the move-action formula to add 1, or possibly more, steps to that action chain.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
lol, what does this have to do with anything.
More Fun To Compute
Member
He is saying that time units make the game too complicated for AI so the player would always have a huge advantage.
Something that always bugged me about original x-com is research. (we dont know how Firaxis is handling research yet, so this is my thoughts on it all)
I didnt (dont) have time to see through trial and error where a particular research project will lead me. I cant restart my entire game because I screwed up the order I researched stuff, leading me to not have better weapons in time for harder enemies. (or what-have-you)
Fixing that issue leads to fudging the game, either you delay harder enemies from showing up until the player has finally researched the correct tech, or you dumb down the tech tree to make it impossible to fail. (A > B > C > D)
Neither option sounds fun, but neither is being able to fuck up an entire play through. That type of mechanic is very 90s and no one has time for it anymore.
How do you fix the research issue?
Lets break it down: Research leads to better weapons/armour, more base options, intercept vehicles, ways to fight back, etc.
In Fantasy SRPGs getting better equipment happens at a regular pace hand fed as you progress through the world. Some games add a crafting mechanic to give players more play choice but its not strictly necessary. To achieve the same effect in this game you could have research be automated, which means that you would be given everything when it was needed. Perhaps you could add some customization by putting component requirements. Say if you found X of alien weapon Y you could trigger research into a tech piece to make your M24 fire incendiary rounds. Not necessary, but cool.
Now, I know everyone here will say BOO to that method. Thats not x-com. I know the devs would agree and I do too.
What else is there? Have a ghost tech tree? Let me see that branch A leads to weapons, branch B leads to armour, etc? Give me the whole tree but blank it out so I can only see one step ahead of each research option?
Maybe have multi-staged research? So that I can research Alien Tech A which I have no idea what it does or where it leads, but after a set time of researching Tech A a briefing will be available that gives me a breakdown of what this Tech will give me/lead to. Then I could choose to continue the research or stop it and go after something else. When I go back to Tech A it will be partially researched. This could lead to the dip method where the player would end up researching every option to see what is available before finally going with one option. The risk in that is the delay in partially researching everything could see the player not having any new tech by the time harder shit shows up.
More hand holding? Tips and pop ups to guide the player through the research tree so that while the player could decide on any research, the tip will show the best path?
I'll stop now, Im sure people will have stuff to say on this, maybe to tell me Im out to lunch and it should stay the same as it was.
I didnt (dont) have time to see through trial and error where a particular research project will lead me. I cant restart my entire game because I screwed up the order I researched stuff, leading me to not have better weapons in time for harder enemies. (or what-have-you)
Fixing that issue leads to fudging the game, either you delay harder enemies from showing up until the player has finally researched the correct tech, or you dumb down the tech tree to make it impossible to fail. (A > B > C > D)
Neither option sounds fun, but neither is being able to fuck up an entire play through. That type of mechanic is very 90s and no one has time for it anymore.
How do you fix the research issue?
Lets break it down: Research leads to better weapons/armour, more base options, intercept vehicles, ways to fight back, etc.
In Fantasy SRPGs getting better equipment happens at a regular pace hand fed as you progress through the world. Some games add a crafting mechanic to give players more play choice but its not strictly necessary. To achieve the same effect in this game you could have research be automated, which means that you would be given everything when it was needed. Perhaps you could add some customization by putting component requirements. Say if you found X of alien weapon Y you could trigger research into a tech piece to make your M24 fire incendiary rounds. Not necessary, but cool.
Now, I know everyone here will say BOO to that method. Thats not x-com. I know the devs would agree and I do too.
What else is there? Have a ghost tech tree? Let me see that branch A leads to weapons, branch B leads to armour, etc? Give me the whole tree but blank it out so I can only see one step ahead of each research option?
Maybe have multi-staged research? So that I can research Alien Tech A which I have no idea what it does or where it leads, but after a set time of researching Tech A a briefing will be available that gives me a breakdown of what this Tech will give me/lead to. Then I could choose to continue the research or stop it and go after something else. When I go back to Tech A it will be partially researched. This could lead to the dip method where the player would end up researching every option to see what is available before finally going with one option. The risk in that is the delay in partially researching everything could see the player not having any new tech by the time harder shit shows up.
More hand holding? Tips and pop ups to guide the player through the research tree so that while the player could decide on any research, the tip will show the best path?
I'll stop now, Im sure people will have stuff to say on this, maybe to tell me Im out to lunch and it should stay the same as it was.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Palehorse, you crazy bastard. What have you done? What are these heresies you speak?
I'll post my $0.02 tonight
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Wantwantwantwant oh god I've been waiting for this for way too long.
And yes, Soloman is quite the handsome fellow.
And yes, Soloman is quite the handsome fellow.
My example was the simplest of scenarios for clarity. It doesn't take much thought to extrapolate it and see that you couldn't in fact incorporate it in a move-action system (without defeating the object of it and increasing the number of actions per turn to a point where you might as well have TUs).
Also, by "an optimal solution for each scenario", do you mean tactically or mathematically? As in, the best way to respond to a situation (shoot or grenade) or the best way to use the time points available for what you've already decided to do (how far you can move before you shoot)?
Either way what are you suggesting, that we should remove the option for players to make "sub-optimal decisions"? Isn't that what makes the difference between people who are good at something and those who aren't, decision making? Why not just have the game play itself?
Oh, and I've thought about this over breakfast, trust me on this.
Castor Krieg
Banned
I'll stop now, Im sure people will have stuff to say on this, maybe to tell me Im out to lunch and it should stay the same as it was.
I think they will somehow adjust the difficulty here. I would like them to keep research the same, but I know how bad it was in X-Com. In TftD Lobster Man shows when? 2nd or 3rd month? If you do not have Sonic weapons by then it's Game Over.
I'll stop now, Im sure people will have stuff to say on this, maybe to tell me Im out to lunch and it should stay the same as it was.
They've handled the research complexities of Civilization just fine, I'm sure they can stick in an adviser or two to help orient the direction of your research and base building.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Heh, tell that to my eight year old self.
I was going to mention Civ as an example of having a completely transparent research tree. You know what is available and what it will do for you in turn 1 of Civ games so there's no suspense to it. Xcom works a bit differently in the idea that you dont' know what you will come across until you've researched it.
Research in Civ games is purely to place a time/resource cost to the tech so that you pay for it instead of having it for free. There is also a robust number of choices and the option of researching everything is limited by the same cost.
So what would everyone like to see? A completely transparent research tree ala Civ with the inability to research everything? (which also requires balancing to ensure that no choice is the wrong choice)
Or the xcom original mystery grab bag, casting your net into the tech tree and hoping for something cool to pop out?
These days it makes little difference to me as I enjoy both methods. However when UFO first hit the market, the mysterious tech tree and the way in which you researched various things on that tree was one of the main draws for me. It was really satisfying to hit a hard tact mission, barely win but make it back to base will all kinds of new and interesting things to research.
I'm getting excited thinkin about it actually, so I guess old style is the one I'm still interested in.
Have we heard anything about the vehicles in this game? I understand that the tank-esque mobile weapons platforms are still in, but what about jeeps or bikes or something? I always thought that bringing along a bike or a jeep/etc for rapid deployment, or immediate penetration on the tact field would have been interesting.
further more: I'm hoping against the odds (Maybe?) that they'll allow us to deploy two squads in different locations for tactical battles. It's always bothered me about the series. Why can't I land one craft in the north and deploy, but then land a smaller squad on the south of the map to seam fuckers in?
Sir_Crocodile
Member
UFO style. I loved the "research completed" notice and then reading up on what they'd figured out and seeing what I could research next. Same with Ascendancy.
charlequin
Banned
I think the secret tech tree could work really well as long as they make sure that you're getting new stuff to research pretty regularly and that the results of research are all pretty useful (if very different from one another.)
jonnyp
Member
I don't like the new TU system. And where's the atmosphere during gameplay? Art style is not very good either. Glam cams are fun for 5 mins and then it gets tedious. It didn't seem to have the soul of the originals intact at all but I guess it's way too early to tell with just this short presentation to really tell.
Why not random generated levels? Why only 6 units?
Base building was cool though.
Why not random generated levels? Why only 6 units?
Base building was cool though.
Being that research is dependent on player choice in the old ones (and assuming they mimic the old ones in this area), I would think it would work pretty well once again. A secret tree is gonna prompt a certain amount of hate in the market regardless, but those people can faq it three days before the game hits the street if they're worried about research time and maximizing their efforts.
I wonder if the UFOpedia is still in...
What about having an option for transparent or hidden trees? At the very least, they can tie it to difficulty level.
But they are openly describing the alien threat as mysterious (see the video); it would then be ridiculous to have, from the beginning, the list of the alien tech you're going to encounter.
Yeah, I could see that working. Throw in an, "Old School" mode or something for those of use more familiar with the series. Options never hurt. I could even see them adding options to the command view to really simplify that down for people who are primarily interested in the combat and then, vice-versa for primarily command minded players.
Neuromancer
Member
I concur 100%.
MrPing1000
Member
wtf the levels are not randomly generated?
That sucks a lot.
That sucks a lot.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Agreed. However, after several playthroughs, all the mystery is sucked out since we know all the choices available to us anyway because we've memorized them.
Ideally, I'd like to have a system that somehow replicates the mystery and enjoyment every single time, even on repeat playthoughs. Such a system would be pretty hard to create, though.
Overall I think that one flaw of the original XCOM for veteran players is that there is really only one or two optimal ways to research tech in the game, since everyone always does it pretty much the same way.
I would like to see it so that there are multiple optimal paths.
Additionally, I would like to see each researchable item have some kind of benefit to the player. Researching things like Alien Entertainment and have it be a waste is kinda pointless, imo.
I would also like to see the tech tree be dynamic and cause the player to think and adapt, depending on what kinds of artifacts he is able to scavenge/recover and on what his current needs are. I don't want the player to think "oh, I know I have to research this thing now because I've played the game a million times before and this is what you're supposed to do". I'd rather have the player have to choose from a variety of equally viable choices in order to craft the play experience that he deems fit to craft.
MiniBossBattle
Member
My hope is that when you hit an alien crashsite, the location of the UFO will be randomized/have different placements.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Too bad they couldn't have at least added tiny bits of randomization in the levels.
This.
Also this. If there's one optimal path then everyone will be following the same path once the wiki is built. Diablo 3 is addressing the same thing with skills, trying to take out the optimal build/cookie cutter chars.
Edit: I forgot to address the above. I really like this idea too. It sounds super hard to pull off successfully but if they did it would be incredible. Unfortunately everything hard coded in the game will end up being a known factor at some point, which means that all mystery will be stripped out. Only randomization will stop that, which I dont' think is possible. (?)
The transparent tree is not something I would like either, it's just an example of other research methods, and is a possibility. Having a non-transparent tree means all sorts of pit-falls. I'm very curious as to what Firaxis has come up with.
The multiple path tree sounds viable. Label every tech as coming from one category: Weapons, Armour, Alien, etc. Then the player can choose to go heavy on weapon tech or Armour or dabble in a bunch of everything. The issue comes with balacing the game to allow the player to make those choices. Maybe focussing on armour makes you hard to kill but you also have a hard time killing aliens until you research down some weapon areas.
Knowing that Firaxis are trying very hard to maintain the xcom feel while improving those things that are broken, they may not think research is broken. It won't put me off if they keep it the same, I am really looking forward to this game. I may not get very far but I'll love it all the same.
Well done randomized research would be unbelievably awesome. That said, I'm not exactly holding my breath for it.
I think that the ideal system that you describe would be something akin to the Master of Orion 2 tech tree. Say, the research of a certain type of alien artifact can latter have many different, mutually exclusive applications, which may vary from one playtrought from another. Say, for example:
You investigate "alien entertainement". Possible applications:
Application A -Psicodrugs, item to be manufactured with elerium as an alternative possibility for fueling your economy
Application B- Neurorobotic interface. Aircraft add on, increases accuracy
Application C - Biological alien weapons, a type of greanade that only affects alien lifeforms
Say, each application would be randomly choosen, so even if you have already played before and researched that particular alien artifact before, you might find a brand new use of the said alien technology, thus keeping the suspense intact. If every possible technological aplication of the same tech is balanced (or even better, if it auto - balances depending on the other technological applications that you have already discovered before), then you can have a system with both suspense and a certain modicum of equilibrium.
In short: yes, I also hope that they improve research.
Also, talking about another area of the classical X-Com in dire need of an overhaul: diplomacy. That is, X-Coms relationship with the Earth's nations. I think that this was a really underdeveloped angle on the original X - Com, and that the political fractiousness of the Earth superpowers and how to galvanize them against a common enemy despite the delicate equilibrium between them might be a really cool angle to explore; say, if you sell alien technology to the US don't count on China's financial support, but if you extirpate a Beijin alien base, perhaps things will change...
bonesmccoy
Banned
I think the (invisible) research tree can be a lot more palatable if you add visible parent-child relationships. The original had this, but it was because impossible to see since research items were displayed as a linear path. By just adopting a branch/bush model, you'd get rid of a lot of the research headaches new players have to suffer through (unless they consult a faq/wiki).
Ikael, I too hope that diplomacy is beefed up. In the original you could manipulate relationships by placing a base within a country's borders, responding to terror attacks and destroying alien bases, however there was little depth or nuance to it. It would be interesting though to see things like arms sales being politicized, or media manipulation, or high-risk diplomatic missions. For example, the president of Russia's son has been abducted and taken to an alien base: if you win - huge rewards, die trying - medium rewards, ignore the mission - a risk of massive penalties to funding.
Ikael, I too hope that diplomacy is beefed up. In the original you could manipulate relationships by placing a base within a country's borders, responding to terror attacks and destroying alien bases, however there was little depth or nuance to it. It would be interesting though to see things like arms sales being politicized, or media manipulation, or high-risk diplomatic missions. For example, the president of Russia's son has been abducted and taken to an alien base: if you win - huge rewards, die trying - medium rewards, ignore the mission - a risk of massive penalties to funding.
This is getting a bit out there, but how about missions that you don't actually attend? Like the mission Bones suggested but instead of manning the mission you elect 2 guys to go off alone to try it out. They perform the mission and come back with boosted stats if they won. If you send some elite guys the chance of success is higher but the reward is less.
You wouldn't want the missions to have a chance of killing your guys so they would be more boring types that you could ignore. Like scouting out sightings from civilians or collecting alien trash found in some guy's back yard, etc.
The other risk to having a guy sent out on a solo mission is that he's not available for full missions.
This was done in one of the FF Tactics games. It could be a good way to get a green soldier some experience without the full risk of combat.
(this kind of spitballing is probably best reserved for a sequel instead of the reskin/tweak we're all hoping for, but it's fun to dream.)
You wouldn't want the missions to have a chance of killing your guys so they would be more boring types that you could ignore. Like scouting out sightings from civilians or collecting alien trash found in some guy's back yard, etc.
The other risk to having a guy sent out on a solo mission is that he's not available for full missions.
This was done in one of the FF Tactics games. It could be a good way to get a green soldier some experience without the full risk of combat.
(this kind of spitballing is probably best reserved for a sequel instead of the reskin/tweak we're all hoping for, but it's fun to dream.)
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Well. Now I'm definitely sold if I was not before.
jaundicejuice
Member
Looks absolutely fucking awesome. I don't know what I'm more excited for, Gods & Kings or this.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
bonesmccoy
Banned
Star Trek Online has something like this. You're given a batch of 'Duty Officers' and can assign them tasks and missions for them to complete. Success is dependent on the mission/task's risk level and the officer's abilities. Sometimes your officers don't come back.
Absolutely! I'd love the option to 'liberate' alien soldiers and have them fight for your cause, but that's something I couldn't see them introducing in a straight reboot.
PantherAttacks
Member
I hope there's not too many cutscenes. XCOM isn't about some fixed story, it's about the player making his own story. Plus fixed levels? It feels like they've missed the spirit of the original.
In anticipation of the new X-Com I just started playing X-Com: Apocalypse(on sale on Steam right now for $2.49). I've never played an X-Com before so I decided to start with this one and preserve the Enemy Unknown experience for the remake, even though I've heard Apoc is the worst of the 3. I'm really enjoying it so I figure I'd share a few of my newbie impressions:
The bad first. After playing for a good 8 hours so far, I'm glad they've taken out the time units. I'm already tired of having to estimate how many steps my unit can take, only to have my soldiers fuck up their units by stumbling around obstacles, causing them to miss shot opportunities, or be stuck out in the open with 0's because a civilian was in their path. It worked well enough for the time I assume but the series definitely needs to move past TU's/. They're just not fun.
On to the positive, before I bought Apocalypse, I'd watched a few people play missions on Youtube before, but damn. There's just nothing like playing this game for yourself.
Now like I said, this is my first X-Com game. In Week 2 of playing Apocalypse on Medium difficulty, my base got invaded. Since this is my first invasion I have no idea where to find the aliens, so I'm spending 15 minutes scanning every crevice of my base trying to find these aliens and once I do it's about 20 turns into the game. There's about 10 of them all scattered around in my garage. My soldiers are missing shots like crazy, after losing 2 soldiers, having a third turn on me after getting brainsucked, and losing 2 scientists, my rookie soldiers haven't killed a single alien. It's not looking any better. I'm getting legitimately pissed off, and I'm about 3 turns from the aliens surrounding me completely, then I remember my grenades, medkits and all the other equipment my soldiers have. I get my head together, move my units around a perimeter at the top of the garage and bombard the aliens with grenades and sniper shots. After about another 7 turns, all the aliens are dead. 2 of my 7 soldiers are wounded.
I can't remember a time I've went from frustrated to feeling like a champ so quickly. That battle lasted over an hour and a half. Even after I saw the victory screen I was still tense and frustrated, but as soon as I was back to the overworld, the scope of the game returned to me and I realized, that was just another battle. I lost 3 out of my 10 soldiers, there were a couple more already waiting to be recruited. I lost a good amount of gear but that can easily be replaced. My base and labs were all intact. At the end of the day, the battle was a victory, and for only my second combat scenario period, we did pretty damn good.
Repeat this satisfaction for the next 4-5 missions I've been on since. The satisfaction after beating a mission never goes away, easy or tough. It's a breath of fresh air to kill the last alien every single time. What's more amazing is that it actually makes you want to spend a good amount of time in the overview just looking over your soldiers stats and equipment, making subtle changes, buying new gear, starting new research. It's pretty incredible that they managed to actually make me want to take a breather away from the combat, if only for just a little while.
Anyway, those are my newbie impressions. It's going to be that much harder to wait for the sequel now that I've played this.
The bad first. After playing for a good 8 hours so far, I'm glad they've taken out the time units. I'm already tired of having to estimate how many steps my unit can take, only to have my soldiers fuck up their units by stumbling around obstacles, causing them to miss shot opportunities, or be stuck out in the open with 0's because a civilian was in their path. It worked well enough for the time I assume but the series definitely needs to move past TU's/. They're just not fun.
On to the positive, before I bought Apocalypse, I'd watched a few people play missions on Youtube before, but damn. There's just nothing like playing this game for yourself.
Now like I said, this is my first X-Com game. In Week 2 of playing Apocalypse on Medium difficulty, my base got invaded. Since this is my first invasion I have no idea where to find the aliens, so I'm spending 15 minutes scanning every crevice of my base trying to find these aliens and once I do it's about 20 turns into the game. There's about 10 of them all scattered around in my garage. My soldiers are missing shots like crazy, after losing 2 soldiers, having a third turn on me after getting brainsucked, and losing 2 scientists, my rookie soldiers haven't killed a single alien. It's not looking any better. I'm getting legitimately pissed off, and I'm about 3 turns from the aliens surrounding me completely, then I remember my grenades, medkits and all the other equipment my soldiers have. I get my head together, move my units around a perimeter at the top of the garage and bombard the aliens with grenades and sniper shots. After about another 7 turns, all the aliens are dead. 2 of my 7 soldiers are wounded.
I can't remember a time I've went from frustrated to feeling like a champ so quickly. That battle lasted over an hour and a half. Even after I saw the victory screen I was still tense and frustrated, but as soon as I was back to the overworld, the scope of the game returned to me and I realized, that was just another battle. I lost 3 out of my 10 soldiers, there were a couple more already waiting to be recruited. I lost a good amount of gear but that can easily be replaced. My base and labs were all intact. At the end of the day, the battle was a victory, and for only my second combat scenario period, we did pretty damn good.
Repeat this satisfaction for the next 4-5 missions I've been on since. The satisfaction after beating a mission never goes away, easy or tough. It's a breath of fresh air to kill the last alien every single time. What's more amazing is that it actually makes you want to spend a good amount of time in the overview just looking over your soldiers stats and equipment, making subtle changes, buying new gear, starting new research. It's pretty incredible that they managed to actually make me want to take a breather away from the combat, if only for just a little while.
Anyway, those are my newbie impressions. It's going to be that much harder to wait for the sequel now that I've played this.
Sentenza
Member
Your opinion ceased to be interesting or relevant here.
You deliberately picked a game that made a very bad use of the original mechanic and now you pretend to be able to judge it, despise not having any experience of the original game.
Neuromancer
Member
Yeah so far this news is my biggest disappointment. I just don't see anyway to spin it to make it better. Randomized levels and not knowing the layouts were such a huge part of the appeal of the first game for me.
I guess if enemy placements were completely random that would help but I suspect that won't be the case either (because of the little cutscenes that play when you first see them.) I envision after a couple playhtorughs you'll know every level inside and out. I'd like to be proven wrong on this though.
Yikes, it just sounds like he didn't know any better.
You're exaggerating. TU's still get fucked up in the original.
Sentenza
Member
And yet he's jumping in the argument "TUs good/bad" and taking sides without any actual knowledge of the original game.
But you apparently don't know the first thing about them; you claimed just a post ago that Apocalypse was your first X-Com.