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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer

G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
systemfehler said:
I doubt Sony has the Adrian Newey of chip design among them to upgrad the HD 7660D to something lasting them another 5-7 years.
Click to expand...


I don't think more powerful APUs are about design breakthroughs. It's about target market. APUs aren't 'weak' in the desktop space because of technical constraints but because of the market they're targeting.

If a client comes along and wants a larger, more expensive APU, AMD won't need some godlike design power to make it happen. They're just dealing with different budget and die-size constraints than they deal with in the desktop APU space.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Kagari said:
At this point, platform parity between multiplatform games is probably more important than b/c. If b/c happens... good. If not... well, I won't be dumping my PS3 any time soon anyway.
Click to expand...
that's how I look at it. BC would be convenient but imo it's a worthy sacrifice for the cause.
 
C

charsace

Member
Kagari said:
At this point, platform parity between multiplatform games is probably more important than b/c. If b/c happens... good. If not... well, I won't be dumping my PS3 any time soon anyway.
Click to expand...

The next xbox will most likely have BC. They have seemed to design the 360 development environment with BC in mind.
 
C

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Sounds like they are taking a page out if their Vita OS, err, book.

Having an OS always on and general functionality always available regardless of what app or game you might be in, sounds good to me.

Regardless, don't be late Sony, do what MS did and show it off then release it later that year, don't get stuck in the same situation you put yourself in this generation with a late console that was expensive and no gain over competitors multi platform wise.

As for BC, I would love it but don't need it as long as the support is there, the Cell I imagine would be a pain in the ass to emulate, though I've seen some mention that it theoretically be possible using a less powerful seperate GPU or something.
 
J

JudgeN

Member
I would prefer if its backwards compatible with PS3 but if it isn't I can live with it. But if it isn't backwords compatible with PSN titles then Sony got a huge problem.
 
S

SolarPowered

Member
No BC means that system either costs $300 or if offers me some insane fucking value. This no BC thing is a real crock with home consoles at this point and it looks embarassing considering how well the PC handle it.
JudgeN said:
I would prefer if its backwards compatible with PS3 but if it isn't I can live with it. But if it isn't backwords compatible with PSN titles then Sony got a huge problem.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between PSN games and retail PS3 games?
 
C

Cjdamon042

Member
In terms of BC, I'm going to guess this is where Gaikai comes in, especially with downloadable games. It'll check what games you own on your PSN account and allow you to play them via Gaikai, as well purchase ones you don't. As for retail games, I'm not sure how they'll get around that but I'm sure they'll figure something out.
 
S

Sid

Member
These specs are AWESOME if true, i simply cannot wait for the ps4 games especially sony's first party exclusives to come out,i'm hoping killzone 4 and SSM's new IP will be launch titles.
 
N

NemesisPrime

Banned
Kerub said:
The retail console usually have half the amount of RAM that the devkit has, right?
Click to expand...

There is no rule. It all depends.

These specs are AWESOME if true, i simply cannot wait for the ps4 games especially sony's first party exclusives to come out,i'm hoping killzone 4 and SSM's new IP will be launch titles.
Click to expand...

Sarcasm? Irony?

but it’s not clear if it’ll be a normal HDD or a solid state drive.
Click to expand...

Dream on...
 
C

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Opus Angelorum said:
Announced before E3 next year? I can't see it.
Click to expand...

Any reason why?
Sony showed off the Vita and then released it later that year, MS showed off the 360 and launched it the same year.

It's perfectly possible, the PS3 was supposed to come out much sooner than it did after it got announced but got hit with hardware delays, seeing as the technology they are using now isn't anything out there like the Cell was or new like the Blu-Ray drive then it shouldn't be nearly as troublesome.
 
K

KageMaru

Member
gofreak said:
Why does it matter where GPU resources are located (on a discrete card or on an APU) as long as there's enough of them?

How much GPU resources there are is what matters, not this apparent obsession with whether there's a discrete GPU or not. If it's an APU like in the last rumour it'll be fine IMO.
Click to expand...

Actually it should matter if it's an APU or discrete since that would effect the overall chip size and the larger/more complex the chip, the more that may effect yields, which will effect cost.

So if Company A has discrete, smaller, parts while Company B has one large APU, Company A may have the more powerful system unless Company B is willing to pay more.

With Sony being more cost-conscious this time around, if they do just use one APU, it may not be this big powerful chip some believe it'll be.

gundamkyoukai said:
You know the tech geek in me would love if they did not have a discrete GPU.
Let them use all of there silicon budget for a monster APU to see what they can do cause you never going to get that freedom in a PC compare to console .


Looking at desktop APU can give you a idea but there allot they can do to change things up .
Click to expand...

Look at my response above, I'm not really a fan of one big APU.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
systemfehler said:
With an A10-5800K I doubt there is a second stand-alone GPU. As posted in the PS4 rumours thread:

" A10-5800K has a Northern Island HD 7660D GPU which is able to run COD Modern Warfare 3 at 30-45FPS (no AA/AF, min. details) at full HD without 3D"

So from 2GB in the PS4 rumour we are now at 4-8GB I seriously doubt that aswell. Even with modifications and optimization I don't see the PS4 as a work horse with those specifications. I doubt Sony has the Adrian Newey of chip design among them to upgrad the HD 7660D to something lasting them another 5-7 years.
Click to expand...

Sonys designs for PS2 and Ps3 have been pretty damn good though. Ps2 still has almost incomparable filtrate, making HD ports tricky at times. And PS3 pushed for highly parallel vector processing but fell down on the RSX. IMO they've been the most aggressive in console architecture focused on what's needed for gaming.

If they go with an x86 and standardise GPU it'll be a shame but perhaps predictable
 
S

systemfehler

Member
gundamkyoukai said:
Why would you doubt the PS4 having more than 2GB of ram the rumor was there were always try to get more that 2 so i would expect 4 or even more if using cheap ram like the rumor for MS.
Also you really think that the APU for the PS4 would have 7660D in it when they going to customize it .
Click to expand...

I doubt that the PS4 will have more than 4GB because the first rumours put it at 2GB and Sony considering for more because of third party pressure. Now this rumour has 16GB devkits that is some big step from 2 - maybe 4 to 8 you have to admit.

Well all that customization can't make up for the fact that it is a APU GPU with limited performance - you can't expect them to magically make a beast out of it. Furthermore if Sony could really do that why use the weak APU instead of already available 79xx cards? I guess the custom GPU won't achieve that performance level.

Northern Island to simulate Southern/Sea Island performance?
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
'Based on A10' means everything and opens the gates for speculation.

They could potentially say to AMD 'give us the basic A10 but throw out the GPU part and graft on something from your 8xxx line. Here is your die size budget'

I still like the idea of APU for CPU + co processing with fast access to each others cache and maybe edram (for physics, post process etc), and a discrete GPU for graphics grunt work
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
KageMaru said:
Actually it should matter if it's an APU or discrete since that would effect the overall chip size and the larger/more complex the chip, the more that may effect yields, which will effect cost.
So if Company A has discrete, smaller, parts while Company B has one large APU, Company A may have the more powerful system unless Company B is willing to pay more.
With Sony being more cost-conscious this time around, if they do just use one APU, it may not be this big powerful chip some believe it'll be.

Look at my response above, I'm not really a fan of one big APU.
Click to expand...

Neither am i but i got to admit i would like to see what they can do .
When it comes to APU is desktop they allot you have to worry about in console there less so it would be interesting .

systemfehler said:
I doubt that the PS4 will have more than 4GB because the first rumours put it at 2GB and Sony considering for more because of third party pressure. Now this rumour has 16GB devkits that is some big step from 2 - maybe 4 to 8 you have to admit.

Well all that customization can't make up for the fact that it is a APU GPU with limited performance - you can't expect them to magically make a beast out of it. Furthermore if Sony could really do that why use the weak APU instead of already available 79xx cards? I guess the custom GPU won't achieve that performance level.

Northern Island to simulate Southern/Sea Island performance?
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong i am not expecting some beast of a machine but i do expect they going to up the power a fair bit .
Seems Sony wants everything on 1 chip and it also cheaper to go with a APU only .
 
N

Norml

Member
The “ultimate goal” for the hardware, we were told, is for it to be able to run 1080p60 games in 3D with “no problem,” to create a machine that’s powerful enough for “today and tomorrow’s market”.
Click to expand...

sounds great to me :D
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
KageMaru said:
Actually it should matter if it's an APU or discrete since that would effect the overall chip size and the larger/more complex the chip, the more that may effect yields, which will effect cost.

So if Company A has discrete, smaller, parts while Company B has one large APU, Company A may have the more powerful system unless Company B is willing to pay more.
Click to expand...

That's what their hardware engineers have to work out. Which approach for a given target performance envelope will work out cheaper.

It's not necessarily going to be the case that two smaller discretes will wind up being cheaper than one larger chip, particularly if that larger chip isn't in fact all that HUGE. The single chip will have knock on cost savings. It's also not necessarily true that the discrete setup would be more powerful - there are many candidate discrete gpu configs that would be weaker than the apu config proposed in the last rumour.

Obviously if you wanted to make the absolute fastest machine you would go with discrete parts. But I don't get the impression that this is the competitive standard this time around for better (cost) or worse (power).
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
maverick40 said:
Why would you buy a new console to play old games? What a stupid reason.
Click to expand...
Maybe he likes those games. Or maybe he has a back catalog. Maybe there won't be any good ps4 games for awhile

What's stupid is wanting a system that plays less software and not more

Nintendo has bc. MS will probably have it too
 
S

Souther

Banned
Would people really be happy if this new machine was still pumping out 720P@30 as standard??

Either design the game with 720P@60 or 1080P@30 as the standard. It's really hard to go back to a game once you have seen that game running @ 60 as opposed to 30. I'd be willing to sacrifice some graphical touches if it meant the game could run @ 60 locked.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
gofreak said:
That's what their hardware engineers have to work out. Which approach for a given target performance envelope will work out cheaper.

It's not necessarily going to be the case that two smaller discretes will wind up being cheaper than one larger chip, particularly if that larger chip isn't in fact all that HUGE. The single chip will have knock on cost savings. It's also not necessarily true that the discrete setup would be more powerful - there are many candidate discrete gpu configs that would be weaker than the apu config proposed in the last rumour.

Obviously if you wanted to make the absolute fastest machine you would go with discrete parts. But I don't get the impression that this is the competitive standard this time around for better (cost) or worse (power).
Click to expand...


Two discrete chips should give you more power, APU only will be cheaper. But discrete parts gives more potential for price cuts later on, whereas an APU would stay relatively flat in price for a long time, because you've already built in some level of cost savings from the start
 
F

funkystudent

Member
Finally some new ps4 news. Jeff_Rigby was spinning his wheels in the other thread.



Sounds good. At least 8 gigs of RAM in the dev kit probably means at least 4 in the retail version which is good to hear since there as talk of them cheaping out and going with 2.


And if they have a OS up and running now and have a vision of what its gonna be that great. The ps3 OS sort of got tapped together last minute from what I heard and we have been paying for it ever since.


I really hope they have some kind of DVR / cable box mode though. That seems to be a big focus of the next xbox and even the Wii U has Wii TV thats a attempt at it.

Sony has not been on top of the non gaming media functions this gen so I hope that changes.

Still waiting on the PSN video store here in Ireland. It got pulled off the launch lineup of countries last minute and has been "coming soon" ever since. Thats 3+ years.
 
R

Respawn

Banned
Looking and reading this thread its interesting to see how many folks don't understand modern tech.
The machine sounds superb especially when combined with Sony first party and what they'll accomplish on it.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
Is APU only still more powerful than wii u? If so then that's enough. Sony needs to launch at 299

If MS wants to go nuts let them
 
A

AranhaHunter

Banned
Kagari said:
At this point, platform parity between multiplatform games is probably more important than b/c. If b/c happens... good. If not... well, I won't be dumping my PS3 any time soon anyway.
Click to expand...

They could get BC with Gaikai streaming video rental and PSN video downloads, but people, including myself, will want to be able to use their discs. It'll be doubly important if the 720 offers BC with the 360. Not a deal breaker, but not insignificant either.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
mrklaw said:
Two discrete chips should give you more power, APU only will be cheaper. But discrete parts gives more potential for price cuts later on, whereas an APU would stay relatively flat in price for a long time, because you've already built in some level of cost savings from the start
Click to expand...

Sure, I don't disagree with any of that. The question about power, though, is whether the targeted performance envelopes take us out of the realm of single combined chips into a technical need for discrete.

For better (cost) or worse (power), I'm getting the vibe the kind of performance target that would necessitate discrete parts isn't part of the picture. At least, on the GPU side... maybe MS is going with a relatively big CPU that will force a split there.

I would be curious if anyone knowledgable enough about these things thinks the kind of APU rumoured (2-module/4-core+18CU) wouldn't be feasible technically. To me it seems like from a die size POV it wouldn't be a whole lot larger than some of the slightly bigger-than-average GPU die sizes out there in desktop land.
 
K

KageMaru

Member
gofreak said:
That's what their hardware engineers have to work out. Which approach for a given target performance envelope will work out cheaper.

It's not necessarily going to be the case that two smaller discretes will wind up being cheaper than one larger chip, particularly if that larger chip isn't in fact all that HUGE. The single chip will have knock on cost savings. It's also not necessarily true that the discrete setup would be more powerful - there are many candidate discrete gpu configs that would be weaker than the apu config proposed in the last rumour.

Obviously if you wanted to make the absolute fastest machine you would go with discrete parts. But I don't get the impression that this is the competitive standard this time around for better (cost) or worse (power).
Click to expand...

True there are a number of possibilities. I'm just saying all things considered, going with discrete parts right now would increase the likelihood of it being both cheaper and more powerful. Even if the one APU averaged to about the same size of both the discrete chips, the discrete chips would likely have better yields since each separate chip would be smaller and less complex than the one APU. So IMO the APU doesn't have to be all that huge for the discrete parts to have better yields.
 
B

B.O.O.M

Member
Sounds good. Really digging the background downloads etc info. gonna make the whole experience of using the system so much better.


I can't wait to see any demos they use to show off the hardware...gonna be sick :D

2013 is already sounding better than 2012 for me

Great games like TLOU, GTA5, GOW:A, Soul Sacrifice, Gears + New Hardware reveals..so good

So I think as I have been thinking/hoping the reveal will be like the vita one..a Playstation Meeting event around march/april
 
Y

yon61

Member
Wow, that's disappointing if true. I can't see Microsoft not releasing something more powerful than that, especially on the graphics side of things.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
KageMaru said:
True there are a number of possibilities. I'm just saying all things considered, going with discrete parts right now would increase the likelihood of it being both cheaper and more powerful. Even if the one APU averaged to about the same size of both the discrete chips, the discrete chips would likely have better yields since each separate chip would be smaller and less complex than the one APU. So IMO the APU doesn't have to be all that huge for the discrete parts to have better yields.
Click to expand...


It's not simply a question of yields though. Mobo complexity and wiring will be higher with two discretes etc. Two sets of cooling components vs one. Etc. So they have to balance that against the yield issue and find what intersection of overall complexity and cost vs their performance target that makes sense. Even if you're losing a little on per chip cost vs two discretes the savings elsewhere may exceed that.
 
M

Mileena

Banned
Hoping they dont pull a Nintendo and let MS get ahead in the tech race. I don't want a 720 but if its more powerful....
 
S

seventynine

Member
funkystudent said:
Finally some new ps4 news. Jeff_Rigby was spinning his wheels in the other thread.



Sounds good. At least 8 gigs of RAM in the dev kit probably means at least 4 in the retail version which is good to hear since there as talk of them cheaping out and going with 2.


And if they have a OS up and running now and have a vision of what its gonna be that great. The ps3 OS sort of got tapped together last minute from what I heard and we have been paying for it ever since.


I really hope they have some kind of DVR / cable box mode though. That seems to be a big focus of the next xbox and even the Wii U has Wii TV thats a attempt at it.

Sony has not been on top of the non gaming media functions this gen so I hope that changes.

Still waiting on the PSN video store here in Ireland. It got pulled off the launch lineup of countries last minute and has been "coming soon" ever since. Thats 3+ years.
Click to expand...
That depends entirely on where you're based, I've used my PS3 as a PVR since around 2008, and in UK we've had the iPlayer for a while too. It's been build on since then as well.

I think the PS4 will be just fine in that regard.
 
R

Racer30

Member
gofreak said:
It's not simply a question of yields though. Mobo complexity and wiring will be higher with two discretes etc. Two sets of cooling components vs one. Etc. So they have to balance that against the yield issue and find what intersection of overall complexity and cost vs their performance target makes sense. Even if you're losing a little on per chip cost vs two discretes the gain elsewhere may exceed that.
Click to expand...

It will have a discrete GPU, thats a given when you have a goal of 1080p60fps 3D!
 
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