llien
Member
No, not in rugby, but it doesn't really matter in this context.
Oh, did I get it right, you think that the gender gap in physical strength (whopping 50% in upper body, on average) will disappear in a matter of centuries or even decades?
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AFLW block transgender athlete, Hannah Mouncey, from 2018 draft
- Thread starter lush
- Start date
Oh, did I get it right, you think that the gender gap in physical strength (whopping 50% in upper body, on average) will disappear in a matter of centuries or even decades?
CebollaDeAbbott
Banned
It should be noted that the AFL has not prohibited her from playing in lower leagues.
If the question of safety is at play here, why is she still allowed to play? Against less experienced players for that matter.
If the question of safety is at play here, why is she still allowed to play? Against less experienced players for that matter.
tkscz
Member
I've not seen female rugby, but if it's played anything like female American Football, it's probably best she doesn't play unless she wants to get Suplexed into the ground. If not, how strong is the average player? That should be a good determiner on whether she should be able to play or not. If one other player can take her down easily, then there shouldn't be a problem.
Because you can't really stop people playing at an amateur level, and the AFL doesn't necessarily have control over those lower leagues (they do for some but not others).
I don't think you can discount the fact that different leagues have different expectations, either. In men's, running around in B grade of Div 4 Amatuer league, I'm expecting to play a bigger assortment of wildly different sizes and, lets be honest, wary that I'm a decent chance of getting "accidently" punched in the head, but if I was professional and in the AFL, I'd expect less assortment of body sizes / shape, and more umpire control / governance. Its not unreasonable to say the women in the AFLW are prepared for a certain 'type' of player (for lack of a better term), which Hannah would not fit into. I realise that doesn't mean she should automatically be banned, but it certainly makes this a complicated issue that, again, I think the AFL has done the right thing in regards to.
I'm going to throw this back up near the top of a new page just for the help of all the foreigners that are starting to wander into this thread, and are assuming that this is a Rugby competition and looking for Rugby examples.
No the AFL made the right decision in this case. I believe that she shouldn't be playing in lower leagues either however.
CebollaDeAbbott
Banned
The division in question is AFL Canberra, so it certainly is under their governing abilities.
That said, I see what you're saying. The AFLW is still very new and most of it's players quite inexperienced to the sport. This is likely a question that will reappear in the coming years. Perhaps it can be better examined when the league has had more than one season.
toddhunter
Member
No you have it wrong. Men will also correspondingly get bigger.
But what will change very quickly in growing sports like the AFL is the gap between your average player and Hannah in terms of strength (raw height and weight doesn't necessarily tell the whole picture).
This will come from professionalism and full time training. It will also come from girls from the pacific islands coming to Australia once they can get good consistent money.
No doubt to preserve the integrity of the highest level of the game. You know ... gambling.
It should be noted though that the Rugby examples are relevant for the fact that there are big/athletic girls already in sport. That doesn't necessarily mean they will succeed in AFL as you stated, but it doesn't mean that a few of them wouldn't give it a crack now.
Yeah, its definitely something I think needs to be constantly revisited. When the 4 new teams come in in 2019, and they need more talent to fill the lists, and look in more diverse locations to get it, it might be the case that Hannah is less of an outlier to the rest of the competition and it might be less of an issue. Or, at the very least, the players will have had a bit more time to prepare physically for more physical diversity.
I don't know, its very tricky, and I'll admit I'm out of depth in this.
Perfect Blue
Banned
Dumb. Plenty of athletes are born with superior genetic traits but they don't get blocked out for "fairness" because others lost the genetic lottery. It's not this lady's fault she was born a man.
Greedings
Member
Why is that rational?
Gender and sports is fucked from the beginning. Example:
Polycystic ovary syndrome is often caused in women by androgen excess, with a prevalence of around 3-8% in the total population.
When you compare this to female athletes, it's around 30-40% of women.
Again, this is androgen excess. These women have higher testosterone than normal women. The idea that people who are good at sports are "just like you and me" but they work harder! Is an absolute myth. All professional sportsmen and women are genetically gifted.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
This is a non issue. She has a clear biological advantage and shouldn't be allowed to compete. News at 11, science is still a thing.
Sounds like a lot people content with this have never seen a sports game, let alone play it in their life.
This is such a terrible and nonsensical comparison. Someone born a man or woman will have specific advantages. A man has a ton more physical advantages which is why in sports, the ones with men that require physical activity are always far, far superior to the women's.
Sounds like a lot people content with this have never seen a sports game, let alone play it in their life.
There are players in the NHL playing at 56 160lbs up against 69 250lbs players. And they can be quite successful. Theres no rule against that so Id be inclined to say there should be no rules here, either.But a good look if you care about sportspersonship and fairness.
Inclusiveness shouldn't always be the main goal, especially in athletics.
We need to consider the integrity of the sport.
Mouncey is 6 foot 2 and weighs 100kg:
They might end up injuring the other players.
ResidentWeevil13
Member
But are the genetic variations found within a sex comparable to the genetic variations between sexes? The fact that we have mens leagues and womens leagues suggest that they are not.
Perfect Blue
Banned
Exactly what I think.
Greedings
Member
That's not why we have men's and women's sports leagues.
ResidentWeevil13
Member
Enlighten me then
Edit: Are sports gendered or are they sexed? Do female leagues exist so women have a chance to compete apart from men because of physical differences, or do female leagues exist so people who identify as women on the gender binary (spectrum) can compete in an exclusive league together?
prag16
Banned
Haha, I never got this memo. However at 6'1", 210 I wasn't a "small winger". I was actually bigger than all but the locks, props, and inside center on my team.
On topic, yeah, she's too fucking big and strong. She'll kill those smaller women at some point. This isn't "transmisogyny". Not everything can be some utopia of equality. This is top level athletic competition.
Perfect Blue
Banned
How do you know what people have or haven't seen based on opinions in this thread? What a strange post, no need to attack anyone for a differing opinion we are all adults here.
People are always born with specific advantages. It's silly to single out one specific advantage.
Brotherhood93
Member
There has to be some physiological reasoning when it comes to deciding which league a person should be playing in as far as I am concerned. If sex really didn't matter in sports there probably wouldn't be different leagues for men and women in the first place, or there'd be at least more demand to bring them together. Yes, people come in all shapes and sizes but none of the women were born with testosterone levels as high as Hannah which seems to be the main point of contention. I just don't see how it's fair to all the other competitors to allow her in until those levels drop lower. However, if she wanted to she should be allowed to compete in the men's league in the time being.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Dude we have women's leagues because if sports were coed, even the best women would by and large get fucking destroyed by their average male competitors. Coed sports are pretty much a one way ticket to never seeing women compete.
You have a right to be your best self, and to seek the body that you feel you should have been born into. You do not have a right to play high level sports as defined by your own self image rather than your genetics. Men have very real and profound physiological advantages over women when it comes to many sports. Gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy will not erase decades of growing as a male.
n00bsauce87
Member
They could have outright banned her, but she is going to be able to play next year. That means whoever gets the number 1 pick (I don't know how drafting works, I assume the same with american sports) is going to pick her up. If anything she's going to be the prize of the draft because everyone is gonna want her on their team because of her physical advantages.
Also on the bright side, other transgendered women now has an avenue and a goal to declare themselves for the 2018 draft.
Also on the bright side, other transgendered women now has an avenue and a goal to declare themselves for the 2018 draft.
Mate, her size and strength are super human compared to your average female football player. Show me a comparable female player.
Do you even know what this sport is?
Subpar Scrub
Banned
No other woman who is born as a female will have the same advantage as Hannah. Decades of much higher testosterone production coupled with greater muscle development? This is a very specific advantage that nobody else in her team, or league for that matter, would have.
She's been blocked from the draft, therefore meaning she won't be able to get into any AFLW team in 2018. She will be able to play in a lower league it seems, but not the professional league, no team can pick her up in 2018.
She can then, if she desires, nominate for the draft in 2019 or beyond, but she would have to be accepted, ie. go through the exact process she just did and was denied, in order to play. The only way to get in to the AFL/AFLW to begin with is to be picked up through the draft, so if she can't ever successfully nominate for the draft, she won't ever play.
Skellig Gra
Member
I'm always amazed how people think biological men and women can compete on the same level in any sort of sport that requires physical strength. This isn't some misogynistic conspiracy. Men and women are different for evolutionary purposes. She'd be better off going out for the men's league.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Because no one in their right mind that played sports in their life would think this is ok, since they'd know the monumental difference between a man and a woman. This isn't some advantage, she was born a man. With all the overwhelming physical advantages that men generally have over women and would curb-stomp these women because she was born a man rather than you know.. those other specific advantages that people get born with.
You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.
Do people forget that a complete fucking scrub that smoked, drank and then dominated the fuck out of the Williams sisters in tennis in late 90s? He was ranked 203rd and fucking bodied them 6-1 and 6-2. Now imagine if Karsten Braasch the scrub that went even further down the list falling to 300s shortly after, was a transgender woman. We would have seen a physically born man playing and dominating the fuck out of the best tennis players of this century until she retired bored from owning everyone. All these moral social heroes on this topic would be for it and not watch the actual sport, and the tennis fans would rightfully tap out completely killing the female tennis sport for the next decade. There would be no Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Seles etc because they'd all be women that got fucking dominated by the Braasch. All would be footnotes in tennis history. From the specific advantage of being born a man and playing against the sex that is far weaker in comparison. This is what some of you are trying to make it seem similar to all the genetic advantages, and it's somehow not a parody.
I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just calling it out how it is. People that played sports wouldn't write this nonsense about equality since they know it's the complete opposite of it in reality. It just looks like a bunch of people that are ignorant on the subject that are tripping over themselves trying to sound like fair and balanced citizens looking for imaginary social points.
Would you read the post directly above yours.
Skellig Gra
Member
The williams sisters aren't any bigger than the top athletes in their field.
The genetic difference between biological male and women are a lot more than genetic variance within the same sex. The William's sister are amazing tennis players and I remember both of them playing against a male ranked 200+ and they got absolutely demolished.
EDIT: Covered in way more detail by LegendofDragoon
Albino_Yeti
Member
Agree completely.
Perfect Blue
Banned
Hm, you put out a pretty compelling argument. I'm going to re-consider my viewpoint on this, thanks.
Horsemama1956
Member
Not seeing the issue here and I find it really annoying when people equate these decisions to bigotry. How is this not common sense for like everyone?
Spuck-uk
Banned
If it was genuinely a case of 'player safety'. then they would spend way more time looking at how to limit CTE than they do, rather than this outlying player.
Unfortunately I believe this was the right decision.
If she wished to play in the men's league and has the skill set to do so she should be able to same goes for any woman.
The biological differences make for a completely unfair advantage for the women she would be competing against.
If she wished to play in the men's league and has the skill set to do so she should be able to same goes for any woman.
The biological differences make for a completely unfair advantage for the women she would be competing against.
It's not just player safety. It's the integrity of the game.
Good shit
I'm curious what would the legal ramifications be if one of the other women were injured by her.
Would they be able to sue the league and would they have a case? Thats is another angle I'd be worried about if I had to make these decisions. I have no idea what the laws are in Australia so I'm not sure if this would even come into play.
Would they be able to sue the league and would they have a case? Thats is another angle I'd be worried about if I had to make these decisions. I have no idea what the laws are in Australia so I'm not sure if this would even come into play.
Not 158 pounds but 15 stones and 8 pounds which is about 218 pounds.
Probably not.
Because if she wasn't trans no one would give a shit.
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