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German Federal Elections 2017 |OT| Electing the new leader of the free world

X

Xando

Member
Welcome to the German Federal Elections 2017 OT!

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The Parties and their Candidates:

CDU/CSU
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Angela Merkel
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The Christian Democratic Union of Germany (German: Christlich Demokratische Union Deutschlands, CDU is a Christian democratic and liberal-conservative political party in Germany. It is the major catch-all party of the centre-right in German politics. The CDU forms the CDU/CSU grouping, also known as the Union, in the Bundestag with its Bavarian counterpart the Christian Social Union in Bavaria (CSU).

The leader of the CDU, Angela Merkel, is the current Chancellor of Germany.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_of_Germany


SPD
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Martin Schulz
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The Social Democratic Party of Germany is a social-democratic political party in Germany. The party, led by Chairman Martin Schulz since 2017, has become one of the two major contemporary political parties in Germany, along with the Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

The SPD has governed at the federal level in Germany as part of a grand coalition with the CDU and the Christian Social Union (CSU) since December 2013 following the results of the 2013 federal election. The SPD participates in 14 state governments, nine of them governed by SPD Minister-Presidents.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany



FDP
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Christian Lindner
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The Free Democratic Party is a liberal and classical liberal political party in Germany. The FDP is led by Christian Lindner.

The FDP was founded in 1948 by members of the former liberal political parties existing in Germany before World War II, the German Democratic Party and the German People's Party. For most of the Federal Republic's history, it has held the balance of power in the Bundestag. It was a junior coalition partner to either the CDU/CSU (1949–56, 1961–66, 1982–98, and 2009–13) or the Social Democratic Party of Germany (1969–82).

However, in the 2013 federal election the FDP failed to win any directly elected seats in the Bundestag, and came up short of the 5 percent threshold to qualify for list representation. The FDP was therefore left without representation in the Bundestag for the first time in its history. Currently the FDP is represented in nine state parliaments and in the European Parliament.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany)



BÜNDNIS 90 / DIE GRÜNEN
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Cem Özdemir and Katrin Göring-Eckardt
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Alliance 90/The Greens, often simply Greens, is a green political party in Germany, formed from the merger of the German Green Party (founded in West Germany in 1980) and Alliance 90 (founded during the Revolution of 1989–1990 in East Germany) in 1993. The focus of the party is on ecological, economic, and social sustainability. Its leaders are Simone Peter and Cem Özdemir. In the 2013 federal elections, the party came fourth with 8.4% of the votes and 63 out of 630 seats in the Bundestag.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens



Die Linke
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Dietmar Bartsch and Sahra Wagenknecht
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The Left, also commonly referred to as the Left Party, is a democratic socialist and left-wing populist political party in Germany. The party was founded in 2007 as the merger of the Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS) and the Electoral Alternative for Labour and Social Justice (WASG).

Since mid-2012, its co-chairs have been Katja Kipping and Bernd Riexinger. In the Bundestag the party has 64 out of 630 seats after polling 8.6% of the vote in the 2013 federal elections and, after the Social Democrats and Conservatives formed a coalition government, became leader of the opposition. Its parliamentary group is the third largest among the four groups in the German Bundestag, ahead of the Greens.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Germany)



AFD
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Alice Weidel and Alexander Gauland
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Alternative for Germany is a right-wing populist and Eurosceptic political party in Germany.

Founded in April 2013, the party won 4.7% of the votes in the 2013 federal election, narrowly missing the 5% electoral threshold to sit in the Bundestag. In 2014 the party won 7.1% of the votes and 7 out of 96 German seats in the European election, and was a member of the European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) group until AfD was expelled from that group in April 2016, following AfD's alliance with the Freedom Party of Austria and after AfD leaders made controversial remarks about shooting immigrants. During the AfD party convention on 30 April 2016, one of the two AfD members of the EU Parliament, Marcus Pretzell, announced his intention to join the Europe of Nations and Freedom group, the faction which includes France's National Front.

As of May 2017, the AfD had gained representation in 13 of the 16 German state parliaments. The party is currently led by Frauke Petry and Jörg Meuthen.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany



Important Dates:

September 3rd TV Debate(Only Merkel and Schulz)

September 24th Election day, polls close and first results at 6pm german time


2013 Results:
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NapnMas.jpg
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2013 Thread


Information about the electoral system in Germany

Latest Polls

Credit to brotkasten for the title suggestion
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
It's finally time!

inb4 discussions about the thread title begin

Edit: Also, Christian Lindners picture doesn't work for me // seems to be fixed now
 
L

Lord Frieza

Member
So, I'm confused about the Alternative for Germany in relation to the AfD. The entry makes it seem like the AfD isn't part of it, but then reads as if they're interchangeable.
 
X

Xando

Member
Lord Frieza said:
So, I'm confused about the Alternative for Germany in relation to the AfD. The entry makes it seem like the AfD isn't part of it, but then reads as if they're interchangeable.
Click to expand...

AFD is Alternative für Deutschland, in english Alternative for Germany.
 
P

Patrick Bateman

Member
Never in my life have I been more unsure as for whom I'm gonna vote for.
Except for Linke and AfD. Fuck those.
I hope the Wahl-o-mat will help.
 
S

Sgt. Kabukiman

Banned
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is there no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
 
P

Patrick Bateman

Member
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is their no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
Click to expand...

2005.
And no, there's no limit.
Kohl was chancellor for 16 years, from 1982-1998.
 
T

Tamanator

Member
Unless something radical happens in the next few months, looks like the CDU will once again be the largest party.

Will be interesting to see if the FDP reach the threshold to get representation again.

dc89 said:
What if Merkel has a May-esque campaign?
Click to expand...

Merkel is a seasoned campaigner who knows how to win. Qualities that May seriously lacked.
 
O

Orniletter

Banned
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is their no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
Click to expand...
Bundespräsident is limited to 2 consecutive terms, Chancellors can stay as long as they are "elected".
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is their no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
Click to expand...

Term limits are usually an indicator for presidential systems, Germany has a parliamentary system. To my knowledge, there's no limit here.
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
dc89 said:
What if Merkel has a May-esque campaign?
Click to expand...

Merkel can't really do anything wrong right now imo. The SPD could do something right instead, but well, the last two months aren't really encouraging me on that.

Personally, just to clarify my stance in this thread, I'd be all for red-red-green under the right circumstances. There are some basic rights issues I don't see resolved anytime soon under the CDU. But the time really doesn't seem right for that. SPD doesn't know what it's doing, Die Grünen (which I voted for in the NRW election) are polling real bad in recent times, and Die Linke isn't able to sit in a government at all right now. Their Parteitag showed as much.

I'll hope for another Grand Coalition, probably vote SPD, since I don't think CDU would make a coalition with the Greens, and hope that the SPD finally finds it's spine and pushes through some stuff they were delaying, like gay marriage.

On the other hand maybe it's best for the SPD to finally be opposition again, but I just don't see black-green or Jamaica coalition happening.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
One can't help but feel there's something fundamentally unhealthy about the political scene when one party dominates so long. I don't support term limits, because I think they're back to front - if someone is popular, why shift them? - but I do think that Merkel's tenure is damning of the SPD and the opposition parties in general. There's nothing there.
 
W

weekev

Banned
Crab said:
One can't help but feel there's something fundamentally unhealthy about the political scene when one party dominates so long. I don't support term limits, because I think they're back to front - if someone is popular, why shift them? - but I do think that Merkel's tenure is damning of the SPD and the opposition parties in general. There's nothing there.
Click to expand...
You could flip that on it's head and say it must be incredibly healthy to have people vote in the same party time and time again. Maybe they are governing the way people want to be governed and the alternatives would lead to a worse way of life?

As someone from the UK I'd love to have someone as shrewd and competent in charge of my country as Angela Merkel. You guys are lucky to have her.
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
Patrick Bateman said:
This will never happen.

I'd be actually ok with CDU-FDP or SPD-Green.
No more big coalition or triple party coalitions..
Click to expand...

I'd be perfectly fine with SPD-Green, but I don't see that happen either. I'd actually prefer that, since Die Linke getting its grip is even more unlikely. And as you say, triple party coalitions can be messy.

CDU-FDP I really don't want to see. CDU-Greens would be an interesting experiment imo.
 
X

Xando

Member
Crab said:
One can't help but feel there's something fundamentally unhealthy about the political scene when one party dominates so long. I don't support term limits, because I think they're back to front - if someone is popular, why shift them? - but I do think that Merkel's tenure is damning of the SPD and the opposition parties in general. There's nothing there.
Click to expand...

Their problem is they still haven't found anything they can really hurt Merkel with.

SPD traditionally was the workers party but is still paying for the Hartz reforms.

Greens main topic was basically climate and stopping nuclear power. Merkel fullfilled this.

Linke and AFD are too extreme for most germans.

That only leaves FDP, a party that was usually seen as the rich people party that couldn't even make it to 5% last election.

I remain convinced as soon as Merkel stops the elections will be much more competitive since she gets a lot of votes from people that aren't traditional CDU voters (Like me last election).

But now? there's not much you can attack her for. The economy is doing well, we're on our way to full employment and most germans are rather happy with the current situation.
 
O

Orniletter

Banned
Patrick Bateman said:
TIL.
Click to expand...

I actually didn't know about that a few months back either.
Well, it's not that surprising considering how out of sight, out of mind our presidents tend to be (by design of course).


Anyway, can we talk about how disastrous the left's party convention truly was ?
Never deploying our military under any circumstances, full on Russia appeasement, their horrendous I-can't-believe-it's-not-basic-income income.

They are barely a full step above the AfD imo. I could never vote for a version of the SPD that would even entertain the idea of forming a coalition with them.
 
L

Ladekabel

Member
Don't CDU and CSU have different candidates? AFAIK the candidate for the CSU is the guy who said "wonderful nigger" and "calling refugees "Heimatvertriebene"(expellees) would be an insult to the Heimatvertriebenen".
 
K

KingK

Member
Crab said:
One can't help but feel there's something fundamentally unhealthy about the political scene when one party dominates so long. I don't support term limits, because I think they're back to front - if someone is popular, why shift them? - but I do think that Merkel's tenure is damning of the SPD and the opposition parties in general. There's nothing there.
Click to expand...
I see what you're saying, but considering what's been going on in the rest of the western democracies, I'd say Germany probably has the most healthy political scene. I wouldn't vote for Merkel, but she's really the only conservative on the world stage since, I don't know, Eisenhower, that I really respect. I'd prefer an SPD led coalition of the left, but I really wouldn't mind another Merkel term.

I'm not a German citizen so I'm not exactly super knowledgeable here, but I would guess that dominance is a combination of SPD/opposition not getting it's shit together, like you said, but also Merkel just being a genuinely brilliant politician who even the left can respect.
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
Orniletter said:
I actually didn't know about that a few months back either.
Well, it's not that surprising considering how out of sight, out of mind our presidents tend to be (by design of course).


Anyway, can we talk about how disastrous the left's party convention truly was ?
Never deploying our military under any circumstances, full on Russia appeasement, their horrendous I-can't-believe-it's-not-basic-income income.

They are barely a full step above the AfD imo. I could never vote for a version of the SPD that would even entertain the idea of forming a coalition with them.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I have to bite my tongue every time someone I know says he can't vote the Greens because they allowed deportation to Afghanistan in one or two state governments as coalition partners. Which I don't like too of course.

But then going on to SPD and Greens not being "true" progressives and voting Die Linke instead is just incredible. They can't govern. They just can't.

la_briola said:
This is over before it even starts. SPD is a joke with no spine.
Click to expand...

It makes me sad to the core. At the same time I can't really complain, since Merkel is just an extremely competent politician. Germany is lucky to have her.
 
C

Cirion

Banned
Hopefully the FDP stays out. Absolutely no need for lobbyists for the rich and corporations in the parliament who also happen to completely suck at governing, as proven extensively 2009-2013. The old FDP is dead since the end of the SPD-FDP-coalition in 1982. Other parties can step up for civil rights and limits to surveillance, which the FDP would sell out in an instant in a coalition with the CDU anyway. Aside from Lindner being more presentable than Rösler/Brüderle nothing has changed since 2013. Businesses and rich/upper middle class have their cronies in the CDU anyway.

Muffin1611 said:
CDU-Greens would be an interesting experiment imo.
Click to expand...

Would be absolutely awful. The Greens are now basically the German Clinton party with a bit more green pastiche and even less economically social policies. There is nothing left of the old leftwing-roots of the party at all, only a bit social liberalism. Kretschmann is a sellout to the auto mobile industry, Palmer is a vile asshole who advocates for shooting at refugees. Göring-Eckhardt, a conservative church lobbywoman, heading the campaign, really?

No need to say more about AFD. Krypto-fascist, reactionary, nationalist, sexist, homophobic, racist, neoliberal party of idiots and assholes.
 
Bitch Pudding

Bitch Pudding

Member
Nice OT!

But you forgot to mention the candidate from Die Partei, Serdar Somuncu!

1546078_616968508368305_479633237_n.jpg


And before someone mentions that he has no chance of winning, well, if THAT'S an exclusion criterion then posting a pic from Merkel would have done the trick as well.
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
We need some SOCIALISM up in there, stop with this laissez faire neocorporativists.

Power back to the people.
 
J

Jisgsaw

Member
Crab said:
One can't help but feel there's something fundamentally unhealthy about the political scene when one party dominates so long. I don't support term limits, because I think they're back to front - if someone is popular, why shift them? - but I do think that Merkel's tenure is damning of the SPD and the opposition parties in general. There's nothing there.
Click to expand...

Well, there is certainly that, but the main reason I think is just that Merkel is probably one of the most brillant polotician since Bismark.
Couple that with the fact while not perfect, Germans are for the most part well off, and the cultural cautiousness, and you have no reason to try and see if the greass were greener witrh another Chancelor.

Ladekabel said:
Don't CDU and CSU have different candidates? AFAIK the candidate for the CSU is the guy who said "wonderful nigger" and "calling refugees "Heimatvertriebene"(expellees) would be an insult to the Heimatvertriebenen".
Click to expand...

No, you are thinking of the president of the CSU, but he isn't a chancelor candidate.
 
C

Cirion

Banned
G.ZZZ said:
We need some SOCIALISM up in there, stop with this laissez faire neocorporativists.

Power back to the people.
Click to expand...

Inb4 people telling you falsely that Merkel is center-left.

She is not. CDU has very much a pro-business, economically liberal center-right policy. People just get blinded by the awfulness of Trump/May and AFD. Everyone looks sane and human compared to that.

Jisgsaw said:
Well, there is certainly that, but the main reason I think is just that Merkel is probably one of the most brillant polotician since Bismark.
Couple that with the fact while not perfect, Germans are for the most part well off, and the cultural cautiousness, and you have no reason to try and see if the greass were greener witrh another Chancelor.
Click to expand...


A center-left coalition was already possible, but all three parties bitch and moan about each other more than about the CDU, so it never happens. Greens now shifted hard to the right, SPD has no clue what to do. Right-wingers were also more unified, as usual. Only the rise of the AFD changed that somewhat.
 
M

Muffin1611

Banned
Cirion said:
Would be absolutely awful. The Greens are now basically the German Clinton party with a bit more green pastiche and even less economically social policies. There is nothing left of the old leftwing-roots of the party at all, only a bit social liberalism. Kretschmann is a sellout to the auto mobile industry, Palmer is a vile asshole who advocates for shooting at refugees. Göring-Eckhardt, a conservative church lobbywoman, heading the campaign, really?
Click to expand...

Now come on. You find people like that essentially in almost any party, CDU/CSU, SPD, Grüne, Linke. Palmer was heavily criticized by his own party. Hell, I remember Wagenknecht appealing to AfD voters and getting flak by her whole party.

Some despicable individuals are almost in every party.
 
H

hobblygobbly

Member
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is their no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
Click to expand...

Yeah if she wins this election she will have held the position consecutively for 16 years (currently 12 years).

There are no term limits because of how the system works (you aren't electing the chancellor basically).

A little about the vote itself that people do, first part of the ballot is direct representatives (of whatever party) from your district and second part is the party you are voting for. District representatives get a seat in the bundestag directly, and the rest of the seats are filled by each party's share of the vote. Germany uses both a proportional and direct representation system. How this is all calculated in the end is so that there is appropriate ratio/share in the bundestag of these two parts is complicated and I won't discuss it here because generally irrelevant to what you want to know.

When the seats of the bundestag are filled after the election from the people's vote, every single member is equal, the candidate of each party is just like any other bundestag member. The bundestag then has a vote for who should be chancellor.

This is where the president also comes in. They DO have a two term limit and have different powers. The election of the president is separate and occurs at a different time of year (occurred earlier this year) and is also a different process.

The president nominates a candidate to be chancellor, generally this is the candidate from the party with the most seats or majority seats (including from a result of a coalition), but there is no explicit rule on who can be the nominee.

Then all members of the bundestag have a secret vote on this nominee to be chancellor. If a party's candidate is nominee, and that party has a majority seats, it's pretty much guaranteed they will win the bundestag election of chancellorship, but party members don't actually have to do it and nobody will know since its a secret vote (again generally to stop intimidation and the like, same reason other countries h ave secret votes), so if Merkel was very unpopular in the party somehow and also chosen as candidate earlier by some in the party and nominated, it could stop her if there were enough to oppose. Of course other bundestag members from other parties will and won't vote for her.

However ever since the new German government and reformed systems after WW2 there hasn't ever been a case of a vote failing to elect a chancellor. If it happens there are procedures in place and for another vote to occur of the same or another nominee which would require again absolute majority vote, and if that fails it would be relative majority (also called plurality) vote, of another nominee or same one.

That's why there are no term limits for chancellorship, you are voting for a party, not a chancellor, the members that fill the bundestag from the people's vote then elect the chancellor based on nomination by the president, and that nomination does not necessarily have to be a person from the party with most or majority seats (but it will be more difficult for the vote to succeed).

This is my own general knowledge of how our system works. The current direct and proportional system and how it works (along with other democratic institutions) is a result of reformation because of how everything failed that led to WW2.
 
P

Pluto

Member
Sgt. Kabukiman said:
If you'll pardon my ignorance but Merkel has been Chancellor since what... the mid-00s? Is there no limitation to the number of terms she can serve as Chancellor? Nothing against her, just curious as a foreigner.
Click to expand...
There are no term limits for the chancellor and technically the chancellor isn't elected for a set term, the parliament can remove the chancellor by electing a new one at any time for any reason.
 
L

Ladekabel

Member
Jisgsaw said:
No, you are thinking of the president of the CSU, but he isn't a chancelor candidate.
Click to expand...

I'm not thinking about Horst Seehofer. I'm thinking about Joachim Hermann, Spitzenkandidat for the CSU for this election.

Chancellor candidate is something different.
 
L

Lord Frieza

Member
Muffin1611 said:
They're the same.
Click to expand...

Nibel said:
Alternative for Germany = Alternative für Deutschland = AfD
Click to expand...

Xando said:
AFD is Alternative für Deutschland, in english Alternative for Germany.
Click to expand...

I see now, I was confused because I've never heard the AfD referred to in its English translation and as I reading that it seemed the AfD had been excelled from the Alternative to Germany. Now it makes sense.
 
X

Xando

Member
Ladekabel said:
I'm not thinking about Horst Seehofer. I'm thinking about Joachim Hermann, Spitzenkandidat for the CSU for this election.

Chancellor candidate is something different.
Click to expand...

As far as i know you can only vote for him in bavaria so i left him out.
 
S

Sgt. Kabukiman

Banned
hobblygobbly said:
Yeah if she wins this election she will have held the position consecutively for 16 years (currently 12 years).

There are no term limits because of how the system works (you aren't electing the chancellor basically).

A little about the vote itself that people do, first part of the ballot is direct representatives (of whatever party) from your district and second part is the party you are voting for. District representatives get a seat in the bundestag directly, and the rest of the seats are filled by each party's share of the vote. Germany uses both a proportional and direct representation system. How this is all calculated in the end is so that there is appropriate ratio/share in the bundestag of these two parts is complicated and I won't discuss it here because generally irrelevant to what you want to know.
[...]
Click to expand...

Extremely interesting post, thank you very much.
 
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