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Directx and OpenGL getting low-level access soon (GDC 2014)
- Thread starter Dictator93
- Start date
I think the real goal of Mantle was to give AMD an edge, like most companies making for profit innovation.
Was G-Sync created to push universal framerate adaptation? Likely not.
It sucks that you have to use these unofficial method. Also, some games do have Win8 specific issues.
Mantle is dead in the water if both DX and OpenGL do this, so you don't have to worry about three APIs.
DonMigs85
Member
Doesn't AMD also have their own "FreeSync" now?
Yup, more than enough games simply wouldn't work that I went back to Windows 7. And surprise surprise, now they all work perfectly.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
This is a much better outcome than nvidia farting out more proprietary stuff.
SneakyStephan
Banned
We heard you, yeah no people have been asking to improve direct x for the longest time...
Let's hope it's not all hot air they're blowing and that there's some cpu overhead improvements, we'll need them with high end cpu development having stalled completely
and what stallion said above too
Let's hope it's not all hot air they're blowing and that there's some cpu overhead improvements, we'll need them with high end cpu development having stalled completely
and what stallion said above too
It sucks, but that's what you get when Microsoft is the gatekeeper of PC gaming. Their interests are too diverse and don't align with the needs of PC games players, especially since they launched Xbox.
We need to put our support behind OpenGL and other vendor-agnostic technologies.
Dictator93
Member
If it took mantle for us to come to this step, then it was not useless.
Bonfires Down
Member
So MS sits on their ass doing fuck all until they have some actual competition? Business as usual I suppose.
you don't need classic shell or any third party software in 8.1 to make 7 almost identical.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
I don't think this is reactionary at all, if they have something to present at GDC then this has been in the pipeline for a while, it was already rumored last year that DirectX 12 (aka DirectX Blue) included significant CPU overhead optimizations.
The more shocking fact is that AMD seem to have been unaware of this, as their hasty and quickly shot down statement that there was "no DirectX 12 coming" proved.
Gotta move on at some point. Supporting legacy OS will only slow down advancement. I hope they strip it down, build up right.
This is kind of how I view it too. If DirectX goes low level whats the point of mantle? You can use DirectX with any card. At least AMD pushed people in the right direction.
WIth the OpenGL low level access you are going to get crazy performance out of a 500 dollar Steambox three years from now.
Ricerocket
Member
Why then does the quote say...
I doubt they are talking about the Wii U or PS4
He is listing things in general for the future of DirectX should they implement low level access.
I didn't specify any console because all consoles have been coded to the metal with tools that improve over the years in case you didn't know that. It's a non-issue for consoles and more about PCs.
Anyways, thanks to AMD for making the push and getting others to fight back.
Iced_Eagle
Member
If this gives similar or better levels of performance than Mantle, and it works on all supported cards from both Nvidia, AMD and Intel, then this is huge.
I was a fan of the intentions AMD had with Mantle, but my fear was that it would start a trend back towards the way things were in the 90's were each graphics card manufacturer had their own API. After all, that is why Direct3D was invented.
Now, I will say that almost definitely this will require new hardware that is compatible with DirectX 12(?). After all, the only way for this to work is if there is some sort of standardization in how the OS and hardware communicate, which will require driver model changes, which will likely require new cards.
I also wonder if this will be coming in the Windows 8.1 spring update, or if it will be releasing independently. Considering the past few DX releases have been Windows 8,8.1 only, it's safe to assume that this will also be Windows 8+ only.
I have so many questions rattling around my brain and less than a month until some of them will be answered.
I was a fan of the intentions AMD had with Mantle, but my fear was that it would start a trend back towards the way things were in the 90's were each graphics card manufacturer had their own API. After all, that is why Direct3D was invented.
Now, I will say that almost definitely this will require new hardware that is compatible with DirectX 12(?). After all, the only way for this to work is if there is some sort of standardization in how the OS and hardware communicate, which will require driver model changes, which will likely require new cards.
I also wonder if this will be coming in the Windows 8.1 spring update, or if it will be releasing independently. Considering the past few DX releases have been Windows 8,8.1 only, it's safe to assume that this will also be Windows 8+ only.
I have so many questions rattling around my brain and less than a month until some of them will be answered.
Dictator93
Member
Tiny fix for yodanical correctness.
Also, too bad Durante is probably sleeping when I posted this. He would probably be excited about some of this stuff.
PlumCantaloupe
Member
Awesome news. I am especially excited about OpenGL as it means better multi-platform releases (included Steambox!).
Disclaimer:
Disclaimer:
I do my own graphics programming in OpenGL
The whole point is to reduce CPU load so the GPU can stretch its legs. Slower CPUs are going to see more benefit.
neurosisxeno
Member
I think it was AMD subtley backing away from trying to beat Intel in the consumer CPU market. They have been 1-2 steps behind Intel since the Athlon 64 X2 era, and decided if they could get the focus away from CPU performance entirely, they could make gains in the consumer market. It had the added benefit of making their GPU's more appealing, but their GPU sector has continually been the one part of their company doing well.
This is good news for the PC as a platform, but it still depends on developers using the optimizations, and especially using newer versions of DirectX. Outside of Frostbite 3 there still isn't really an engine out there built from the ground up to take advantage of DirectX 10/11. It probably won't be for another year or so when new titles developed for the next-gen consoles start to trickle out their DirectX 11 ports.
Mantle has a much better chance of catching on than OpenGL and it is much younger.
neurosisxeno
Member
I don't think so, considering OpenGL is familiar and already hardware agnostic. Mantle still only supports new GCN-based cards, and requires Vendors (Nvidia and Intel) to make software or even hardware changes to ensure compatability.
Sure, your points are true but where is the developer support and enthusiasm? Mantle has that, OpenGL does not at the moment.
Unreal 4 is DX11+ only iirc, the latest version of Cryengine is pretty good at taking advantage of DX11+ hardware and Crysis 3 was DX11 only, then there are a couple small ones like Bitsquid. On the upcoming side there is Nitrous Engine, Snowdrop/Disrupt (The Devision/Watch Dogs), and Luminous Engine is built around DX11 as well tho it remains to be seen if SE actually release anything built on it on PC. Tho it sure has taken a long time for the industry to move away from DX9, but that is not surprising given the installbase of Win XP even now. Hopefully MS doesn't try and limit DX12 or whatever to Win 9 because that would surely limit adoption a lot, sadly given their record with these things they probably will.
But Mantle and OGL also pushing ahead with much greater OS support should put some pressure on MS. And give devs an alternate path for newer features on older systems. With Valve pushing hard for OGL and Linux maybe we will see some non id Tech AAA games with OGL support, and with it better driver support.
Gamesadict
Member
I only truly care about OpenGL right now. The more support it gets, the higher the chance of getting new games on other platforms besides Windows.
Also can't wait to see what is it that Valve have been doing with AAA developers. Big games coming to SteamOS obviously means big games running on OGL. Maybe somehow related to these news?
Can't wait for GDC.
Also can't wait to see what is it that Valve have been doing with AAA developers. Big games coming to SteamOS obviously means big games running on OGL. Maybe somehow related to these news?
Can't wait for GDC.
TrantaLocked
Neo Member
Great news! I am looking forward to when this all comes to fruition.
Mantle was definitely needed for this final push. I think EA/DICE deciding to make a Mantle version of BF4 made Microsoft realize how invasive competition against DirectX can become.
Mantle was definitely needed for this final push. I think EA/DICE deciding to make a Mantle version of BF4 made Microsoft realize how invasive competition against DirectX can become.
OpenGL is actually the most commonly used 3D API on the planet, just like Linux is the most commonly used operating system. Only a tiny fraction of the computers out there are PCs, not even all of those use Windows, and even on Windows PCs, the vast majority of pro applications and quite a few games use OpenGL instead of DirectX.
neurosisxeno
Member
Mantle has DICE and Oxide Games, the former being notoriously bad at getting games working without being a buggy mess anyway. Not exactly the ideal poster child for a Graphics API. There still has yet to be a situation that really shows off Mantles benefits. Battlefield 4 is not a hugely CPU-bound game, yes it is fairly heavily threaded, but it is still largely GPU bound, and the performance gain between DX11 and Mantle was only 10-15% on high end PC's. I want to see something like an RTS which uses almost entirely the CPU and bottlenecks the ever living fuck out of it using Mantle.
Unreal 4 is yet to see the light of day. The only games to actually use UE4 are games coming out for this generation of consoles and on PC in the coming year or two, so it's hardly a valid example. Cryengine 3 still has DirectX 9 support and Crysis 3 still ran in DX9 (I can't remember if it was 2 or 3 but one of them launched without DX11 support and 64-bit executables and caused a huge uproar), it wasn't built for DirectX 10/11 like Frostbite 3 was. Nitrous Engine is one of the few taking advantage of Mantle from the get-go and most of their marketing is been questionable, Snowdrop is about a year away from materializing, and I can't find any confirmation on the specifics of Luminous.
The fact is, other than Frostbite 3 no major Engine has really taken advantage of DirectX 11. Civ V and WoW allow you to run in DX11 mostly for their increased efficiency, but that's probably the biggest use of it. Developers need to stop pretending DX is hamstringing them when they don't even use the newer versions of it...
I don't think older games could get any performance boost, but future games would. Either way, it's time to wait on GPUs to support said stuff.
Boaty McBoatface
Member
Are these being live streamed?
I don't want to buy it. 7 seems perfectly capable of the same things and I already paid for it. Why should I rebuy an OS for features that should totally be doable on the OS I already own? It's not Win 8 hate, it's fuck buying another OS when this OS works so well already.
I'm not against Windows 8 because I'm afraid of the interface change, it's because I don't want to buy it for $200 or whatever it is.
ashecitism
Member
Couldn't you already achieve this with OGL via extensions? I mean Steam Dev Days talks and Carmack mentioned it too. But good news nontheless.
I don't think so. If I remember correctly, sessions are usually available for download after the event is over, but most aren't free.
Won't low level access just cause a huge amount of backwards compatibility issues, and make it so less GPUs can even run a game properly? DirectX is supposed to be an abstraction layer that lets the OS manage the implementation of various function calls to allow for greater compatibility.
Yes, OpenGL has had notably lower driver overhead compared to D3D for some time and has gotten better recently. The OP mentions that the OpenGL presentation is about features already present in OpenGL.
alexandros
Banned
Kudos to AMD for getting the ball rolling on this!
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
I'd hope not, as DX11 is barely hitting it's stride.