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Magic: the Gathering |OT12| Hour of Devastation - Hour of Jace getting dunked on

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M

Maledict

Member
For me there are a number of reasons I loathe unsets, although as I posted earlier I appreciate they are helpful for design every once in a while and understand why thy do them.

1) the biggest reason is the humor is offensively bad. Worse than Big Bang Theory bad. It's some of the laziest, most joyless humor I've ever seen - terrible puns, weak as hell in jokes, and entire "themes" based on the entire that just calling something an ass is inherently funny. It's not.

2) the cards are actually really, really weak. In a set where you can break all the games rules, why does it end up full of overcosted bears? Even when I'm not playing Magic I follow spoilers just to look at cool cards and wonder what to do with them, but Unsets have a ridiculously low power level that makes them very uninteresting to me.

3) visually, the sets are a mess. I actually like Magic cards for the art as well as the game. The cards have an inherent value that goes beyond just how good they are to me. However, unsets are visually ugly. They clash, there's no consistency, they go mad with special effects and just look overall bad.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
The humor being weak is my biggest concern. The baseline for comedy has honestly gotten quite a bit more mean-spirited in the long gap since the last Un-set. I just don't seem them committing to going full Rick & Morty over there.

Not to mention, as I said before, there's now a pretty consistent churn of joke/meme cards out of Reddit these days, and the people there obviously have a much better turnaround time since they're just throwing whatever they want at the wall to see if sticks rather than going through an entire development and printing process. There's basically no way Wizards can get the hot, fresh memes out, there's no way they can go as dark or raunchy as their audience, so that really only leaves them with clever mechanical jokes to lean on.

If they can come up with enough of those to fill an entire set and have it still be baseline playable, kudos. I've got a feeling there's going to be a ton of eye-rollingly bad filler (ie, bears with puns on them) instead, though.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's gonna be full of the dankest SFW memes from 2012
 
C

charlequin

Banned
traveler said:
I do think (perhaps mistakenly so) that the consumer for an unset would probably enjoy/get as much value or more out of a conspiracy like set tailored more towards the casual/fun side of things than they would an unset and I can find value there too, so that's why I consider them a less optimal use of resources.
Click to expand...

I agree with this in general, which is why I'm glad they made two Conspiracy sets before giving a slot to Unstable. I think the biggest thing here is that there's a certain amount of diminishing returns on something like Conspiracy if you don't give it a rest for a bit, so I think right now (before it's really the proper time for Conspiracy 3) is the time to do something with as much overlap as a silver-bordered set.

(On a less important note, I also dislike un-sets because they tend to be pretty ugly, with the less serious theming and frame breaking that goes on. I do enjoy the art that gets put out- even in supplementary products I don't touch- so it's just another area where the set is a wasted opportunity to me.)
Click to expand...

This is part of why I'm so curious about what the "modern creative treatment" for this set will mean. The existing world of silver-bordered cards actually has some really attractive art that isn't outside the furthest bounds of where black-border has gone -- "Ach, Hans, Run!" (R.I.P Quinton Hoover :( :( :( ), Ashnod's Coupon, Gifts Given, Once More With Feeling, Persecute Artist, Phyrexian Librarian -- so I think it's certainly possible.

In fact, thinking about it, all the remotely recent silver-border art (i.e. under Jeremy Jarvis' regime instead of the inferior Jeremy Cranford) has been on the Happy Holidays cards, all of which have a much more restrained and subtle approach to humor, so if that's indicative of the direction they take Unstable it might be a bit more aesthetically appealing than the previous entries.

Familienoberhauptvogel said:
you could totally reprint booster tutor in conspiracy 3.
Click to expand...

Can't reprint a silver-bordered card in black border. They actually tried to do this with The Cheese Stands Alone in Eighth Edition and ultimately couldn't work it out. But they did do Lore Seeker so they certainly could print an equivalent card with some careful wording.

Maledict said:
2) the cards are actually really, really weak. In a set where you can break all the games rules, why does it end up full of overcosted bears?
Click to expand...

This is indeed a giant problem with Unglued especially and another something that hopefully a modern Development pass will remedy.
 
T

traveler

Not Wario
That's fair. It's not yet clear what all a modern development pass will entail. Hopefully, it works out for the better and more of us can enjoy this thing.
 
T

traveler

Not Wario
charlequin said:
Can't reprint a silver-bordered card in black border. They actually tried to do this with The Cheese Stands Alone in Eighth Edition and ultimately couldn't work it out. But they did do Lore Seeker so they certainly could print an equivalent card with some careful wording..
Click to expand...

Image.ashx


They got there eventually.

Edit: Oops. dp. I need to go to bed; no one else posts much in these hours. :/
 
Y

Yeef

Member
The full cycle:

Shefet_Dunes_EN.png
Ipnu_Rivulet_EN.png
Ifnir_Deadlands_EN.png
Ramunap_Ruins_EN.png
Hashep_Oasis_EN.png


[Edit] Curious to see the rest of the rare cycle. If one or two are playable and also produce colorless mana, they might be enough to give Reality Smasher, et al, a last hurrah in Standard.
 
T

Tunoku

Member
They're not bad in some kind of mono-colored Eldrazi shell, actually. Provide you with both colored and colorless mana and give you some reach in the late game. They also enable the Desert creature land and add additional value to Scavenger Grounds (the yard exile one).
 
B

bigkrev

Member
If this was 15 years ago the Red one might have seen Standard play as a colorless/uncounterable way to get the last few points of damage in, similar to how Shivan Gorge and Rath's Edge saw play
 
V

Violet_0

Banned
they should stop making random mill cards in every set unless those sets actually support a mill plan. Self-Mill is slightly better, but still probably one of the worst effects that you can pay mana for (changing colors of permanents being the worst)
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
Violet_0 said:
they should stop making random mill cards in every set unless those sets actually support a mill plan. Self-Mill is slightly better, but still probably one of the worst effects that you can pay mana for (changing colors of permanents being the worst)
Click to expand...
I'd probably put one of those blue deserts either into my sideboard or main depending on how often I faced the UR Control mirror. Games can come down to decking and the opportunity cost for one of these is low.
 
V

Violet_0

Banned
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
I'd probably put one of those blue deserts either into my sideboard or main depending on how often I faced the UR Control mirror. Games can come down to decking and the opportunity cost for one of these is low.
Click to expand...

the "lose 1 life for U" part is likely much more relevant against most decks, and they're totally not worth giving up a sideboard slot for
 
S

Supast4r

Junior Member
hermit7 said:
Buying into eldrazi tron. Thoughts on the deck? I just need chalices (spiking a ton I know) and a couple eyes to make stompy in legacy.

The good thing is that all the additional pieces for legacy I already own (save the eyes) and city of traitors is not specifically needed for the most part. It's a bit less all in compared with red stompy and having a bunch of 5/5s is much more reasonable in terms of winning compared with 2 damage via Chandra or pinging people with your draws with Hazoret or sin prodder.
Click to expand...

Eldrazi tron is one of the best decks in modern and I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's a great deck to buy into and chalice of the void is also playable in other decks.
 
S

Simply Sarah

Member
charlequin said:
Again I note that people can't simply be like "I don't want to buy an Unset" even when it's costing them literally nothing by appearing in a death slot, not displacing a regular product, etc. and it's hard to explain this other than people actually really hating fun.



Yeah, the problem with the enchantment thing is just that it's completely unlike every other type of color "limitation" that exists in the game. Blue can't deal with permanents directly -- except it can polymorph them or bounce then counter them. Green can't deal with creatures directly -- except combat does that naturally and green gets tons of fight cards and such besides. White isn't supposed to get raw card advantage -- except they keep finding ways to break that because it's actually pretty constraining to not have that as an option in design.

The enchantment thing, on the other hand, is for whatever reason interpreted as an absolute unbreakable restriction -- it's not just that you can't kill enchantments, you also can't do anything useful to address them that isn't destroying. You're expected to operate 100% within the purview of any enchantment card that gets played against you no matter what, and your only option is to win (somehow?) to get out of it. It takes a whole element of give-and-take interactivity off of the table and thereby contributes to the problems with red as a color.
Click to expand...

Super late response, but I don't entirely disagree. But I see the real issue being a lack of imagination for solutions rather than just needing some overpriced removal to be randomly slapped into the colour. I mean, red in general has suffered from lack of imagination and oddly tight colour pie borders for a very long time now which has led to where it currently is.

It has had a lot of weird jank over the years that may or may not have any potential for a colour theme but it's mostly all treated as some combination of not reflecting the modern game, out of colour, unfun, and/or not valid. Even the things it has been traditionally good at, like burn and land destruction, have been, rightly or wrongly, largely phased out making it even more focused on what it does have than ever.

The things that, in theory, red should be able to do tend to be treated as belonging to other colours or one-note. Creativity (Kaladesh aside)? Blue. Bonds and love between a group? White, if anything. The ability in inspire and lead? Also often white. Emotion and passion? Mostly just anger and breaking/burning things and also shoved into other colours.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
Simply Sarah said:
Super late response, but I don't entirely disagree. But I see the real issue being a lack of imagination for solutions rather than just needing some overpriced removal to be randomly slapped into the colour. I mean, red in general has suffered from lack of imagination and oddly tight colour pie borders for a very long time now which has led to where it currently is.

It has had a lot of weird jank over the years that may or may not have any potential for a colour theme but it's mostly all treated as some combination of not reflecting the modern game, out of colour, unfun, and/or not valid. Even the things it has been traditionally good at, like burn and land destruction, have been, rightly or wrongly, largely phased out making it even more focused on what it does have than ever.

The things that, in theory, red should be able to do tend to be treated as belonging to other colours or one-note. Creativity (Kaladesh aside)? Blue. Bonds and love between a group? White, if anything. The ability in inspire and lead? Also often white. Emotion and passion? Mostly just anger and breaking/burning things and also shoved into other colours.
Click to expand...
Red used to have a lot of punisher effects, Red Gearhulk is a remnant of that they could extend that effect to stuff red can't deal with. A la deals XYZ damage to player unless sacs land artifact or enchantment
 
S

Simply Sarah

Member
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
Red used to have a lot of punisher effects, Red Gearhulk is a remnant of that they could extend that effect to stuff red can't deal with. A la deals XYZ damage to player unless sacs land artifact or enchantment
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, punisher effects have generally tended to be bad due to the opponent being able to pick the least bad option at the time, especially in red when it's almost always "Deal damage or do X". As a result, they usually need to be pushed quite hard and/or in large amounts to be any good and that tends to result in bad play patterns. Also you still run into the "Red can't do that"/"Bad flavour" issue that always seems to crop up.

Lets use the damage example above. At instant cost R deal 2 you have a much worse Shock. At instant cost R deal 3 you have a weird instant Lava Spike that, like Lava Spike, probably doesn't fit anywhere except in an aggressive red deck and is there purely for damage. In fact, as you keep pushing higher the card tends to remain burn that the opponent potentially has the option to prevent more than a removal spell. If you make it an effect on a permanent, like Mogis (who is BR at that), then it still just tends to be damage unless the alt cost is less bad, in which case you'd almost always prefer something that just was dealing damage unconditionally.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
that's just an unconditional tempt with discovery for 1 more, I can see this make waves in EDH. Definitely gonna need one for my K&T Lands deck.
Simply Sarah said:
Unfortunately, punisher effects have generally tended to be bad due to the opponent being able to pick the least bad option at the time, especially in red when it's almost always "Deal damage or do X". As a result, they usually need to be pushed quite hard and/or in large amounts to be any good and that tends to result in bad play patterns. Also you still run into the "Red can't do that"/"Bad flavour" issue that always seems to crop up.

Lets use the damage example above. At instant cost R deal 2 you have a much worse Shock. At instant cost R deal 3 you have a weird instant Lava Spike that, like Lava Spike, probably doesn't fit anywhere except in an aggressive red deck and is there purely for damage. In fact, as you keep pushing higher the card tends to remain burn that the opponent potentially has the option to prevent more than a removal spell. If you make it an effect on a permanent, like Mogis (who is BR at that), then it still just tends to be damage unless the alt cost is less bad, in which case you'd almost always prefer something that just was dealing damage unconditionally.
Click to expand...
Combustible Gearhulk is a good showcase of how to make it an interesting design. The card is bad but having the opponent make a choice when the damage is indeterminate amps the stakes.

Another options is combining bounce with wheel effects both still being in the red colour pie according to MaRo.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
that's just an unconditional tempt with discovery for 1 more, I can see this make waves in EDH. Definitely gonna need one for my K&T Lands deck.

Combustible Gearhulk is a good showcase of how to make it an interesting design. The card is bad but having the opponent make a choice when the damage is indeterminate amps the stakes.

Another options is combining bounce with wheel effects both still being in the red colour pie according to MaRo.
Click to expand...
Given context, the "bounce" listing for red in the mechanics article likely refers to dash mechanics. That is, haste creatures that return to your hand at end of turn, not actually bouncing your opponent's creatures.
 
G

Glix

Member
SigmasonicX said:
Given context, the "bounce" listing for red in the mechanics article likely refers to dash mechanics. That is, haste creatures that return to your hand at end of turn, not actually bouncing your opponent's creatures.
Click to expand...

Red can also bounce. Didn't they have a manowar with echo. Some goblin?
 
J

Justin

Member
Imminent Doom
2R
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with a doom counter on it
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of
doom counters on ~, ~ deals that much damage to target creature or player.
Then put a doom counter on ~.


Also a 6/6 for 5RR that has a sweltering suns ETB
 
Joe Molotov

Joe Molotov

Member
Justin said:
Imminent Doom
2R
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with a doom counter on it
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of
doom counters on ~, ~ deals that much damage to target creature or player.
Then put a doom counter on ~.
Click to expand...

Surprised it's not a mythic.
 
S

Simply Sarah

Member
Justin said:
Imminent Doom
2R
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with a doom counter on it
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of
doom counters on ~, ~ deals that much damage to target creature or player.
Then put a doom counter on ~.


Also a 6/6 for 5RR that has a sweltering suns ETB
Click to expand...

The 6/6 looks solid. A nice body not too far off curve that clears the board on ETB.

The enchantment looks awkward as heck and probably not very good. It seems really questionable to drop on curve as I'd almost always rather just play a 1 and 2 drop T3 instead of a do-nothing 3 drop and holding those until T4 where they become awkward with mana. On later turns I somewhat wonder why you'd have easy access to go 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop, etc.
 
D

DrArchon

Member
Justin said:
Imminent Doom
2R
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with a doom counter on it
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of
doom counters on ~, ~ deals that much damage to target creature or player.
Then put a doom counter on ~.


Also a 6/6 for 5RR that has a sweltering suns ETB
Click to expand...

Enchantment sounds like a 100% worse version of As Foretold. You have to match the mana cost instead of having the option of going below it, you have to keep playing spells to get counters, and getting free spells seems way better to me than getting damage.

6/6 Sweltering Suns sounds fine though. Good for limited and EDH at least.
 
S

Santiako

Member
Justin said:
Imminent Doom
2R
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with a doom counter on it
Whenever you cast a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of
doom counters on ~, ~ deals that much damage to target creature or player.
Then put a doom counter on ~.


Also a 6/6 for 5RR that has a sweltering suns ETB
Click to expand...

Here's the cards for those:

OcdUqSA.png
en_hUvR1TPnnt.png


Man, this set feels boring.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Does this set have ANY money cards as of right now? Nothing seems to be generating much hype?

Also you guys are too harsh on those deserts. They come into play untapped, still tap for colored mana, etc. They are perfectly fine for what they do.
 
J

Justin

Member
The one think that sticks out as possibly interesting right now is a Hapatra/Decimator Beetle/Archifend of Ifnir -1/-1 deck with that new Crocodile Zombie Demon. With Hapatra and the Crocodile Demon out, every time your opponent casts a spell you will get a 1/1 death touch snake.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
kirblar said:
Deserts Matter is generally a limited-only thing. And that's fine.
Click to expand...
I only just remembered the cycling deserts exist so combining those with the blue sac desert you can mill quite a bit. I wanna say that is a quite viable way to beat the control mirror actually.
Crocodile said:
Does this set have ANY money cards as of right now? Nothing seems to be generating much hype?
Click to expand...
Nope, PW deck Bolas is currently the 3rd most expensive card on MCM
 
D

DrArchon

Member
Crocodile said:
Does this set have ANY money cards as of right now? Nothing seems to be generating much hype?
Click to expand...

Maybe Nimble Obstructionist? And Bolas I guess, though I don't expect him to make much waves in standard or anything.

I could see Scarab God fetching a high price with how popular zombies are in EDH.
 
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