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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay

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looking good. it is funny how much time can be put into marveling at procedurally textured spheres while thinking, 'thats not a sphere! its a planet!'. the joys of making space games :)

yeah!, well spent most of my year end holidays doing just procedural planets and no gameplay but at the end since I will allow planetary landing and walking on the planets it makes sense to make it all procedurally, can't think of myself having to craft every single world by hand :)

Wondering if we will ever be able to see what's inside a gas giant :) I wish I could see by myself what's inside for real.
 
This right here - Especially since we can now OFFICIALLY be counted among you!

Here are some shots from our Kickstarter page for Into the Stars

94a43df56c4d1fdc69fc2de4c7eeac87_large.png


8af10aa0cbf0493482f66899a41f48be_large.jpg

This is beautiful. How large is your team?

Sidenote. GunWorld has reached #8 on Steam Greenlight!
Yet we've still made like only $200 in sales on other platforms =/
 

kiguel182

Member
yeah!, well spent most of my year end holidays doing just procedural planets and no gameplay but at the end since I will allow planetary landing and walking on the planets it makes sense to make it all procedurally, can't think of myself having to craft every single world by hand :)

Wondering if we will ever be able to see what's inside a gas giant :) I wish I could see by myself what's inside for real.

Learning how to procedual generate worlds and stuff is actually one of the things I really want to learn next. Is there any good tutorials/resources that dive into that?
 
Learning how to procedual generate worlds and stuff is actually one of the things I really want to learn next. Is there any good tutorials/resources that dive into that?

Well, there are tons of pages about procedural content around, first focus on one thing so you can understand how stuff is created, but basically the approach I am following is first add a lot of parts that can be mixed together in many different ways with different colors then create a random generator variable that uses a seed and that mixes all parts by using the rules you want, very simple at the end but allows you to create a large variety of assets. Problem is that most of the times without good rules you get crap :) but sometimes, and I would say only sometimes it gives you a wow moment! I didn't think it will look that good! and you may even think that you may never had thought about that before, it just happens. So you spent a lot of times running against your rules to see what brings the best most of the times.

I have some examples on my indie db page, with character faces, floor textures, guns, now planets, and will add many more procedural things even dungeons.

For planet textures for example all is math based, some noise, some fractals, some random colors with a especific random seed for each planet , mix all those textures on a sphere and that gives you a planet. If you are more picky, you can even create humidity maps and rain distribution with noise so you can create forests and so on...
 
Hello OT2!

The new OT is great and it's a great write-up on the current tools and state of the indie scene but just two things:

- I really don't like how coding is seen as a con on every engine that has it. I know a lot of people want things to be simple and without it but it's not simply a con. Being there just doesn't sit right with me.

- Also, it would be cool if there was a write-up on some drawing tools. It seems to be the only thing missing there.

I don't want for this to come out bad but it was just two suggestions I had about it.

GET LOST, CREEP.

Just kidding.

As a coder I agree that I listed them as cons but a great many indie developer hopefuls are not programmers. Most are people who really don't have much of a skillset in, well, anything development related like code, art, music, management, etc. They just come with ideas and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's less of a con and more of a warning to newcomers who don't know much about development or who do not want to code. I'm a proponent of coding and urging people to learn if they have no reservations since the hard part about programming isn't text on a screen - it's your damned logic that creates systems. Anyone can learn to play the piano, not everyone can be a musician. Same with programming.

I'll admit - pretty much the only drawing tool I am familiar with is Photoshop. I can only assume, like Star Wars, people are born with knowledge of the program :p

What else is there in terms of art that is aimed at the game developer?

Obsolete even compared to RPG Maker, which is listed in the OP? :p

Also the event system's easy! It's just code sorted by object, with a list of every object available to you, and filtering abilities.

You know what - I asked people last thread for their input on tools changes. I got UE4 out of it. I got much more motion from asking people about a thread title than I did about content of the post, itself.

I did my best but I can't read minds, man :(
 

friken

Member
This right here - Especially since we can now OFFICIALLY be counted among you!

Here are some shots from our Kickstarter page for Into the Stars

94a43df56c4d1fdc69fc2de4c7eeac87_large.png


8af10aa0cbf0493482f66899a41f48be_large.jpg

Looks great! Backed. It looks like you guys will sail through ks funding. Nice job!
 
You have likely mentioned what platform(s) you launched on, but I missed it. Sorry sales haven't been much better. Fingers crossed for steam launch.

Thanks for the well wishes. We're currently available on our website and Desura. Our reach has been minimal as only two sites were willing to review us (the reviews were pretty good though).

We're crossing our fingers for Steam too. Many bundles and sites seem unwilling to look at your game if it isn't on Steam.
 

kiguel182

Member
Well, there are tons of pages about procedural content around, first focus on one thing so you can understand how stuff is created, but basically the approach I am following is first add a lot of parts that can be mixed together in many different ways with different colors then create a random generator variable that uses a seed and that mixes all parts by using the rules you want, very simple at the end but allows you to create a large variety of assets. Problem is that most of the times without good rules you get crap :) but sometimes, and I would say only sometimes it gives you a wow moment! I didn't think it will look that good! and you may even think that you may never had thought about that before, it just happens. So you spent a lot of times running against your rules to see what brings the best most of the times.

I have some examples on my indie db page, with character faces, floor textures, guns, now planets, and will add many more procedural things even dungeons.

For planet textures for example all is math based, some noise, some fractals, some random colors with a especific random seed for each planet , mix all those textures on a sphere and that gives you a planet. If you are more picky, you can even create humidity maps and rain distribution with noise so you can create forests and so on...

I only did some light reading on the subject so far and it all seems really daunting. I want to dive in on it probably after finishing what I'm doing game wise but maybe I'm still a little green to do it right. I need a "procedual generation for babies" kind of guide lol.

I would love to see those examples you made too!

GET LOST, CREEP.

Just kidding.

As a coder I agree that I listed them as cons but a great many indie developer hopefuls are not programmers. Most are people who really don't have much of a skillset in, well, anything development related like code, art, music, management, etc. They just come with ideas and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's less of a con and more of a warning to newcomers who don't know much about development or who do not want to code. I'm a proponent of coding and urging people to learn if they have no reservations since the hard part about programming isn't text on a screen - it's your damned logic that creates systems. Anyone can learn to play the piano, not everyone can be a musician. Same with programming.

I understand why you have it as a Con and I would agree that probably most people that want to get into game making don't start with programming skills. However I think describing it as a Con puts a negative spin on it that doesn't help chance perception about it. Making games is also a great way to learn the basics of programming so some people might be looking for it too.

I think an alternative would be to have a type of feature list that had something like "requires coding skills" or the opposite. That way it would work both ways. It would warn someone that doesn't know how to code without being negative about it and it would help those that want an engine were you can code without making it seem like a bad thing.

I'll admit - pretty much the only drawing tool I am familiar with is Photoshop. I can only assume, like Star Wars, people are born with knowledge of the program :p

What else is there in terms of art that is aimed at the game developer?

My lack of knowledge in that area was why I wanted the list lol. Currently I'm using Gimp but I know there are some programs focused on pixel art for example. There's also Blender for 3D modeling. I'm not savy enough to go in depth about it but I'm sure someone here could.

Photoshop is the standard for 2D stuff that's for sure but given the price (and, for some, depth) it would be a good addition to have alternatives. Even if most people will still use photoshop since it's probably the best.
 
I understand why you have it as a Con and I would agree that probably most people that want to get into game making don't start with programming skills. However I think describing it as a Con puts a negative spin on it that doesn't help chance perception about it. Making games is also a great way to learn the basics of programming so some people might be looking for it too.

I think an alternative would be to have a type of feature list that had something like "requires coding skills" or the opposite. That way it would work both ways. It would warn someone that doesn't know how to code without being negative about it and it would help those that want an engine were you can code without making it seem like a bad thing.



My lack of knowledge in that area was why I wanted the list lol. Currently I'm using Gimp but I know there are some programs focused on pixel art for example. There's also Blender for 3D modeling. I'm not savy enough to go in depth about it but I'm sure someone here could.

Photoshop is the standard for 2D stuff that's for sure but given the price (and, for some, depth) it would be a good addition to have alternatives. Even if most people will still use photoshop since it's probably the best.

I'll get on these :D

I'll just list the "programming needed" in the description and not as a con. Technically, heavy coding can be both a pro and a con depending on the user.
 

Pehesse

Member
My lack of knowledge in that area was why I wanted the list lol. Currently I'm using Gimp but I know there are some programs focused on pixel art for example. There's also Blender for 3D modeling. I'm not savy enough to go in depth about it but I'm sure someone here could.

Photoshop is the standard for 2D stuff that's for sure but given the price (and, for some, depth) it would be a good addition to have alternatives. Even if most people will still use photoshop since it's probably the best.

It's not much, but for 2D I can recommend GraphicsGale (for pixel art) and Clip Studio Paint Pro AKA Manga Studio 5 for bitmap drawing/painting. GraphicsGale can be found for free as far as I know and has handy features for pixel art making (a zoomed out separate canvas and I seem to recall stuff about how it handles swatches as well, but somebody else probably knows and can explain better). As for Manga Studio, it needs to be licensed but it's far, far cheaper than Photoshop (was recently on sale on amazon, too, for 20 bucks, so it's not the same cost level at all). There are some tools designed to help specifically with comic making, but as far as drawing and painting goes, it seems quite efficient. I'll admit I haven't given it a thorough shake as I don't want to switch tools mid-production, but I'll try it out more extensively to see if I'll use it for my future stuff, and I can already recommend taking a look!
 
OP updated with lots of new info on Audio and Art tools. More to come. As the OP says - any suggestions just post here or PM me.

It's not much, but for 2D I can recommend GraphicsGale (for pixel art) and Clip Studio Paint Pro AKA Manga Studio 5 for bitmap drawing/painting. GraphicsGale can be found for free as far as I know and has handy features for pixel art making (a zoomed out separate canvas and I seem to recall stuff about how it handles swatches as well, but somebody else probably knows and can explain better). As for Manga Studio, it needs to be licensed but it's far, far cheaper than Photoshop (was recently on sale on amazon, too, for 20 bucks, so it's not the same cost level at all). There are some tools designed to help specifically with comic making, but as far as drawing and painting goes, it seems quite efficient. I'll admit I haven't given it a thorough shake as I don't want to switch tools mid-production, but I'll try it out more extensively to see if I'll use it for my future stuff, and I can already recommend taking a look!

Added both! Thank you!
 

Blizzard

Banned
It's not much, but for 2D I can recommend GraphicsGale (for pixel art) and Clip Studio Paint Pro AKA Manga Studio 5 for bitmap drawing/painting. GraphicsGale can be found for free as far as I know and has handy features for pixel art making (a zoomed out separate canvas and I seem to recall stuff about how it handles swatches as well, but somebody else probably knows and can explain better). As for Manga Studio, it needs to be licensed but it's far, far cheaper than Photoshop (was recently on sale on amazon, too, for 20 bucks, so it's not the same cost level at all). There are some tools designed to help specifically with comic making, but as far as drawing and painting goes, it seems quite efficient. I'll admit I haven't given it a thorough shake as I don't want to switch tools mid-production, but I'll try it out more extensively to see if I'll use it for my future stuff, and I can already recommend taking a look!
GraphicsGale (http://www.humanbalance.net/gale/us/) has a freeware version. The shareware version can export GIF and a couple of other formats, but the freeware version may be good enough. I am NOT sure if there are any restrictions for commercial use with the license, but maybe someone who knows can chime in.

As mentioned GIMP is the general open-source Photoshop alternative for 2D art.

Blender is the general open-source Maya/whatever alternative for 3D modeling.

Krita (https://krita.org/) is another open-source art program. It seems to focus more on being Photoshop-ish, and tailored for digital painting, while GIMP is focused more on image manipulation.

I use the ancient free Tile Studio (http://tilestudio.sourceforge.net/) to make pixel art, and it's worked for me, but it's probably not as fancy as other pixel-art-specific programs. It's open-source which is nice, but I'm not aware of any free way to build the Delphi source code which sort of removes that benefit for me.
 

kiguel182

Member
It's not much, but for 2D I can recommend GraphicsGale (for pixel art) and Clip Studio Paint Pro AKA Manga Studio 5 for bitmap drawing/painting. GraphicsGale can be found for free as far as I know and has handy features for pixel art making (a zoomed out separate canvas and I seem to recall stuff about how it handles swatches as well, but somebody else probably knows and can explain better). As for Manga Studio, it needs to be licensed but it's far, far cheaper than Photoshop (was recently on sale on amazon, too, for 20 bucks, so it's not the same cost level at all). There are some tools designed to help specifically with comic making, but as far as drawing and painting goes, it seems quite efficient. I'll admit I haven't given it a thorough shake as I don't want to switch tools mid-production, but I'll try it out more extensively to see if I'll use it for my future stuff, and I can already recommend taking a look!

GraphicsGale looks interesting but it seems like it doesn't have a Mac version. I'll probably try it on Windows later to see how it works.
Clip Studio Paint Pro looks cool. It also exports to PSD so it seems like a great complementary tool even if you want to use Photshop down the line. Thanks!

Also, while searching to see if there was a GraphicsGale Mac version I came acrous Aseprite. It's apparently an open-source pixel art tool and it seems really feature complete.

Also, the changes to the OP look great, special love to the GNU pun.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Where possible, just use version 110. Where you want to use extra features on newer hardware you'll need to maintain multiple versions and select the correct one when the game launches.

(That is ancient. Not even OpenGL 2.1)

EDIT: I had recommended to me awhile back that the OpenGL drivers on some old integrated graphics chipsets where so bad it was actually better to use an OpenGL -> Direct3D translation library. (Which would also allow a newer GL version). I can't remember the name of the library though.
Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend sticking to version 110 features in general for OpenGL software, even on modern systems? One would assume the more modern features are better but I suppose that's not always true or reliable.

If anyone else also has experiences or advice about using different GLSL shader versions, it would be appreciated.
 
It's probably a bad idea to share this in this state compared to all the beautiful art you guys are posting, but what the hell.

The game I'm working on is a 2D brawler like Final Fight, but with a combat system inspired by the Batman Arkham games.

Graphics are clearly placeholder programmer art that I threw together just because I needed them to get certain aspects of the game working, plus it looks slightly nicer than colored rectangles. Music is some garbage that I threw together in an hour in Famitracker. Sound effects are crappy stock sound effects I grabbed off of some free sound effects site. And I don't even have a title yet.

But I've got the gameplay engine working and I'm pretty proud of it and really want to share it with someone. So here's a video of a demo level: http://youtu.be/UbXrDxj4f6w

If anyone's interested in helping with graphics or music, I'd love to hear from you. I've been talking to another Gaffer about helping with graphics, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind splitting the workload.
 

Popstar

Member
Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend sticking to version 110 features in general for OpenGL software, even on modern systems? One would assume the more modern features are better but I suppose that's not always true or reliable.
I'd actually recommend dropping older systems all together and only targeting OpenGL 3.3 (Direct3D 10.1 level) hardware or better if you can.

There are some major changes to GLSL syntax with version 130 (OpenGL 3.0) and the older hardware (like your laptop GPU) isn't going to be getting any updates. Older Intel integrated GPUs are often a full version behind what they're capable of supporting in hardware. So you have HD Graphics hardware that supports D3D 10 (and thus OGL 3.x) still stuck on OpenGL 2.

If you can't drop older systems I'd recommend to sticking to older features even on more modern systems. The range of capability is just too broad unless you want to write two complete separate OpenGL rendering paths for legacy 2.x and modern 3.3 Core the same way you might write separate paths for OpenGL and Direct3D.

The library I was thinking of is ANGLE btw. Klei Entertainment uses it for their games (it was Jamie who recommended it to me).

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention. If you're hoping to target OS X in the future you cannot use modern features and legacy OpenGL at the same time. OpenGL 3.2 introduced the idea of "Core" and "Compatibility" contexts. On Windows most (all?) drivers that support OpenGL 3.2+ support the compatibility context so you get all the new features without losing any of the old ones. But OS X only supports the core context which removes all the deprecated legacy OpenGL stuff (like glBegin/glEnd) so you cannot mix them.
If anyone else also has experiences or advice about using different GLSL shader versions, it would be appreciated.
I'd actually like to hear other people's thoughts on this too if anyone has them.
 

Blizzard

Banned
EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention. If you're hoping to target OS X in the future you cannot use modern features and legacy OpenGL at the same time. OpenGL 3.2 introduced the idea of "Core" and "Compatibility" contexts. On Windows most (all?) drivers that support OpenGL 3.2+ support the compatibility context so you get all the new features without losing any of the old ones. But OS X only supports the core context which removes all the deprecated legacy OpenGL stuff (like glBegin/glEnd) so you cannot mix them.

Does this mean you can't use glBegin/glEnd etc. on OS X whatsoever, or only that you cannot use it while also using newer features like 3.x GLSL shaders?
 

Popstar

Member
Does this mean you can't use glBegin/glEnd etc. on OS X whatsoever, or only that you cannot use it while also using newer features like 3.x GLSL shaders?
You cannot use it while also using newer features. You can still ask for an OpenGL 2.1 context instead and use glBegin/glEnd.

But if you want OpenGL 3.2+ you only get the core context without things like glBegin/glEnd.
 
You know what - I asked people last thread for their input on tools changes. I got UE4 out of it. I got much more motion from asking people about a thread title than I did about content of the post, itself.

I did my best but I can't read minds, man :(

That's fine, like I said, it never gets any love. :p Everybody's always about Game Maker and Construct instead.

I grew up on The Games Factory/Click & Create/Multimedia Fusion/Clickteam Fusion, is all.
 
Congrats!
Somewhat jelly also :p.
Kinda looks like a playable concept album ha ha. Will definitely give it a look once it's on Steam as I lack an iDevice.

Thanks! "Playable concept album" is a really good description actually. Now back to busting my ass on these Steam Achievement icons.
 

Ashodin

Member
Nintendo sent me back some great info on bugs in psyscrolr, so HOPEFULLY I'll be getting it through lotcheck soon!
 

Jobbs

Banned
feed the dizzy.

http://www.gfycat.com/GratefulUnrealisticGelding

it was always planned that feeding him would be a mysterious process, and to sort of signal this (as well as potentially be *sorta* useful if people pay close attention) I am floating three symbols above his head when he eats something. many things can be fed to him, and the symbols denote type, type potency, and overall potency. eating different things can lead him towards different evolutions.
 

Burt

Member
feed the dizzy.

http://www.gfycat.com/GratefulUnrealisticGelding

it was always planned that feeding him would be a mysterious process, and to sort of signal this (as well as potentially be *sorta* useful if people pay close attention) I am floating three symbols above his head when he eats something. many things can be fed to him, and the symbols denote type, type potency, and overall potency. eating different things can lead him towards different evolutions.


Sounds like fun.

Got around to working in the basics of a crafting system today, along with expanding the items I have implemented in the game. Been putting that off because it's just such rote data entry.

Anyone have any tips/preferences/guidelines for an RPG crafting system? What I'm working in right now is similar to something like what's in Tactics Ogre: LUCT, but without the monotonous mat crafting or excessive animation length.


Seconding this.
 
Hey guys, sorry I didn't include as much info as I should have in the OP but a lot more is up there now.

I'll be keeping it updated and probably adding a showcase feature to the first post to highlight games you all make when they are about to release for extra exposure. When you guys get close to releasing give me a heads-up in a PM and I will get you showcased in the OP for release.

Sorry I was also a cranky bastard earlier. Had a lot of things break on me today across multiple tasks and I damn near lost it.
 
Anyone have any tips/preferences/guidelines for an RPG crafting system? What I'm working in right now is similar to something like what's in Tactics Ogre: LUCT, but without the monotonous mat crafting or excessive animation length.

More like a question, specifically why include a crafting system.

Seriously most games include it "because reasons" cuz it's very rarely necessary, especially for a game like that.

Also please oh God don't handle leveling the way Tactics Ogre did, game got so slow trying to grind up new classes I had to quit.
 
Photoshop is the standard for 2D stuff that's for sure but given the price (and, for some, depth) it would be a good addition to have alternatives. Even if most people will still use photoshop since it's probably the best.

Photoshop CS2 was free with an Adobe ID registration. It doesn't work on Windows 8 but if you have Windows 7 or older or a supported version of Mac OSX, you're in luck!
 

_machine

Member
Nintendo sent me back some great info on bugs in psyscrolr, so HOPEFULLY I'll be getting it through lotcheck soon!
How long has it been in lotcheck so far?

I know you can't give us any details on what's happening there, but I'd love to hear some experiences since we might be facing the same situation in the future. We actually met a guy from Nintendo who was interested in Ancestory, but unfortunately UE4 is too big of an obstacle. Not that we won't stop lobbying for support from all sides, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Hopefully it'll get through the next time :)
 
Looks damn nice. I guess I can shelve my idea for space Oregon Trail for a while now :(

lol A friend and I had the idea of a water world oregon trail. Some of the expanded ideas we had are already in ther Into the stars kickstater video. Time to shelve the idea :(
Thank god we are working with two different game right now, and its not a problem to shelve that one.
 
Finally decided to pick up Ableton Live and jump in trying to create some tracks (specifically the Theme and different battle themes) for the game.

I watched a few beginner courses on udemy and damn, it's pretty nice when you get the hang of it.

Anyone with more audio centric knowledge that can steer me towards some sweet tutorials or can recommend some Jazz VST's?
 

EDarkness

Member
This right here - Especially since we can now OFFICIALLY be counted among you!

Here are some shots from our Kickstarter page for Into the Stars

94a43df56c4d1fdc69fc2de4c7eeac87_large.png


8af10aa0cbf0493482f66899a41f48be_large.jpg

Wow. That looks excellent. I'll have to make sure to contribute before it ends. At this rate, you should get funded with no troubles.

On a side note, my game finally got Greenlit! Took a while, but we got there.

Like some other folks here, I'm gonna try to be more active in this thread and others. Too much stuff going on, but I need to work on being more "out there" than I have been. Regardless, it's good to see other people's projects.

Oh, and anyone in Louisville? I'll be moving back there in the near future and would like to join some meetups if possible.
 
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