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R-User!
Member
(04-09-2014, 06:08 PM)
R-User!'s Avatar

Originally Posted by beastmode

David Oh = The first of "Zero's" clones, although involving a ghost in a body instead of literal cloning. More like a fit vessel. David Danzinger = The Boss' father. SIGINT = Not an actual Patriot because "Zero" has Nazi sympathies. MGSV: Race and Revenge. "Zero" is a spirit formed by the founding fathers in some Occult thing. C'mon, you know it makes sense.

Just to tease you a little because I don't see things as clearly as you do...

...none of what you say is true because it was a simulation created by the true rulers of the world: NANOMACHINES!!!
beastmode
Member
(04-09-2014, 06:15 PM)
If you go to the POW camp right away in the intel tape side-op there's an extra POW who says something like "I get to see her again" when you carry him.
jsnepo
Member
(04-09-2014, 06:46 PM)
jsnepo's Avatar

Originally Posted by SMZC

But Big Boss is not just a gun. He's supposed to be this idol that soldiers look up to. So far, Kojima has failed miserably at actually portraying that side of him.

Here's hoping I'm proved wrong with MGSV, but I sincerely doubt that will happen.

The ending of Portable Ops and the beginning of Peace Walker showed that soldiers look up to Big Boss as an idol.
KittenMaster
Member
(04-09-2014, 06:53 PM)
KittenMaster's Avatar
After the whole Metal Gear Rising incident (and, in my opinion, how poorly Portable Ops turned out), I am now convinced the reason Kojima sticks with MGS is because the series needs him.

I see Hideo Kojima the way I do Gundam's original creator Yoshiyuki Tomino, who also wanted to abandon his series at several points (before finally trying to sabotage Victory Gundam but failing), before finally the series was passed down to other creators that could do the franchise justice. Unlike Tomino though, Kojima doesn't have anybody to really pass the torch to other than Platinum, who did a wonderful job on a spin-off game that his team could not (one could say that Rising is kind of like the equivalent of G Gundam which was an incredibly super hero take on the series).
foxtrot3d
Banned
(04-09-2014, 07:02 PM)

Originally Posted by KittenMaster

After the whole Metal Gear Rising incident (and, in my opinion, how poorly Portable Ops turned out), I am now convinced the reason Kojima sticks with MGS is because the series needs him.

I see Hideo Kojima the way I do Gundam's original creator Yoshiyuki Tomino, who also wanted to abandon his series at several points (before finally trying to sabotage Victory Gundam but failing), before finally the series was passed down to other creators that could do the franchise justice. Unlike Tomino though, Kojima doesn't have anybody to really pass the torch to other than Platinum, who did a wonderful job on a spin-off game that his team could not (one could say that Rising is kind of like the equivalent of G Gundam which was an incredibly super hero take on the series).

He's stated this frequently, in the recent GameInformer story they were talking about Aliens and how James Cameron took over after Alien and it turned out alright, Kojima then said that James Cameron turned over Terminator after T2 and that turned out to be crap so he has to be careful. Then there is the simple fact that the MGS series is one of the few golden series that Konami has, I mean what other franchise do they own that is guaranteed to sell? So it's in the best interests of Konami to ensure that MGS keeps selling well.
Zen
Banned
(04-09-2014, 07:04 PM)
I do not know why so many people have a poor opinion of Portable Ops.
Graphics Horse
graphics horse
graphics horse
does whatever a
graphics horse does
(04-09-2014, 07:05 PM)
Graphics Horse's Avatar

Originally Posted by KittenMaster

After the whole Metal Gear Rising incident (and, in my opinion, how poorly Portable Ops turned out), I am now convinced the reason Kojima sticks with MGS is because the series needs him.

I see Hideo Kojima the way I do Gundam's original creator Yoshiyuki Tomino, who also wanted to abandon his series at several points (before finally trying to sabotage Victory Gundam but failing), before finally the series was passed down to other creators that could do the franchise justice. Unlike Tomino though, Kojima doesn't have anybody to really pass the torch to other than Platinum, who did a wonderful job on a spin-off game that his team could not (one could say that Rising is kind of like the equivalent of G Gundam which was an incredibly super hero take on the series).

When you've got enough clout to start up a second studio in Los Angeles you shouldn't need another company to pass it down to. If he doesn't think he has someone capable it's up to him to find someone who is.
SiteSeer
Member
(04-09-2014, 07:07 PM)
SiteSeer's Avatar

Originally Posted by foxtrot3d

He's stated this frequently, in the recent GameInformer story they were talking about Aliens and how James Cameron took over after Alien and it turned out alright, Kojima then said that James Cameron turned over Terminator after T2 and that turned out to be crap so he has to be careful. Then there is the simple fact that the MGS series is one of the few golden series that Konami has, I mean what other franchise do they own that is guaranteed to sell? So it's in the best interests of Konami to ensure that MGS keeps selling well.

for kojima's company, this. 'cause i sure as hell don't have no membership to the konami gym.
NotMyRealName
Banned
(04-09-2014, 07:07 PM)
Personally, I think metal gear solid could use a reboot. Set the first game in the year 2020, 24 years after the first successful clone of a mammal, and just use the rest of the series as a skeleton. I don't need or want anymore back story on these characters.
KittenMaster
Member
(04-09-2014, 07:09 PM)
KittenMaster's Avatar

Originally Posted by Graphics Horse

When you've got enough clout to start up a second studio in Los Angeles you shouldn't need another company to pass it down to.

I mean within Konami. Kojima probably thought the same way at one point.
cackhyena
Member
(04-09-2014, 07:30 PM)
cackhyena's Avatar

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

Personally, I think metal gear solid could use a reboot. Set the first game in the year 2020, 24 years after the first successful clone of a mammal, and just use the rest of the series as a skeleton. I don't need or want anymore back story on these characters.

I wouldn't mind that, I guess. Clean slate from all of this. I think the thing for me is I dig things like the Cold War, the GZ/TPP era stuff for setting. Things aren't sterile and futuristic, with weapons you barely recognize, nano machines, AI infestation and the like. It feels raw and gritty and a thing of our recent past. Much easier to draw inspiration from. The best part is most games set in these eras...if at all are shooter based. Broad stroke things I don't care for. Kojima gives us the espionage angle I love with, of course, all the goofiness the series is known for. I'm going to miss it.
Ishida
Banned
(04-09-2014, 07:37 PM)

Originally Posted by Zen

I do not know why so many people have a poor opinion of Portable Ops.

I actually think it's a decent game. Gameplay felt kind of meh, but the plot was better than Peace Walker's in my opinion.
Tookay
Member
(04-09-2014, 08:01 PM)
Tookay's Avatar

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

Personally, I think metal gear solid could use a reboot. Set the first game in the year 2020, 24 years after the first successful clone of a mammal, and just use the rest of the series as a skeleton. I don't need or want anymore back story on these characters.

Yeah, I think that time is coming.

What Kojima has done with this franchise's plot stemming from a very limited 25+ year-old game is pretty stunning, but I think we need to cut the baggage soon.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
(04-09-2014, 08:06 PM)
SolVanderlyn's Avatar
IIRC, Kojima originally left MGS4 in the hands of his staff. He thought they weren't doing a very good job, so he stepped in himself. This is part of why MGS4 has such a disjointed vision.

I assume he wants to let go of MGS and do other things, but he realizes that his choices are limited to:

A) Move on to other projects. Konami keeps making Metal Gear without him.

B) Work on Metal Gear himself.

I feel like in Kojima's ideal world, Metal Gear would just end and that would be that. But if the choice is letting other people do it or doing it himself, he's going to choose the latter.
Batzi
Banned
(04-09-2014, 08:07 PM)
What do you guys make of this tape knowing what happened in GZ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMa5TgX624Q
beastmode
Member
(04-09-2014, 08:19 PM)
So, what if The Sorrow... was literally the black revolver The Boss gave Snake?
and The Joy was Ocelot's first revolver that couldn't shoot Snake?

It only appeared white, like The Boss' sneaking suit.

What if the canon ending of MGS3 for MGSV is Snake choosing The Sorrow and shooting Ocelot?

Then the kid went back to where he first met "John" and finds...



rosaceadude2112
Member
(04-09-2014, 08:35 PM)
rosaceadude2112's Avatar

Originally Posted by SMZC

I couldn't agree more. Kojima has shown time and time again that he is utterly incapable of creating an MGS with a decisive main character who makes decisions for himself. It suited MGS1, as the idea of Snake being used was a major element of the plot, and MGS2 with Raiden being a newbie through whom to see Snake in a better light worked really, really well too. MGS3 already started to irk me a little bit; it has a pass because it shows Big Boss at his youngest, but the man has no ideals, he doesn't think for himself, he just blindly follows either his country or The Boss until a catalyst makes him rethink his loyalties, but even after that we haven't seen clear signs that he does any thinking of his own. MGS4 was abysmal in this regard, with an aged Snake that, though vulnerable, should have been wiser than ever. Instead, he became even more of a puppet than he ever was before, never making choices of his own free will, and with the game never even making a hint as to what his ideals or thoughts were in regards to anything.

I'm hyped as hell for MGSV, but it's almost solely because of the gameplay. I cannot allow myself to get hyped for this game's plot after everything. The theme of revenge excites me a lot, but we've already seen in the trailers that Kaz is the one most hell bent in exacting revenge on his perceived enemy, and that Big Boss just tags along for the ride. Hell, he (Kaz) is even seen wearing the trench coat of the classic Big Boss design. The things that were supposed to be iconic of Big Boss' character and that turned out to be borrowed from other characters just keeps piling up. It's heartbreaking, really.

Obviously, in Metal Gear, if you want a character to be moderately well developed and fleshed out, you'd damn better hope he is not the playable character. Maybe Solid Snake can time travel and give Big Boss an hour long speech about life and shit at the end of MGSV. Apparently that's the only way in which one of the Snakes can be moderately fleshed out in MGSV.

This is pretty bunk, dude. Not that you're wrong, but bunk in the sense that this is portrayed as a fault with the series, something it's failed to accomplish, rather than one of its fundamental themes

The tragedy of Big Boss isn't that he becomes a bad guy, it's that he strives for an ideal that doesn't exist. After learning the truth about the Boss' defection, what he wants is to prevent another soldier from ever being the victim of political machinations again.He establishes Outer Heaven so soldiers can simply be soldiers, without being bound by the wills of suits and desk jockeys. But what he fails to realize is that there's no such thing as a neutral act of violence. A soldier fighting for Big Boss is no different than a soldier fighting for the Soviet Union. He becomes the thing he hates the most.

Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.

The most important series of events in 3 is Snake's capture, torture and escape culminating in the boss fight with The Sorrow. The torture (In a microcosm of the whole game, the torture is first concealed behind a veil before it's gruesome nature is revealed) is the most graphic in the series up to this point, and there's certainly no way to "win" it like before. In Snake's cell we meet Johnny, who is actually somewhat of a warm and comforting presence. Johnny provides a humanity to all the enemy soldiers you've been facing thus far. He shows kindness to Snake, something rarely shown happening between opposing soldiers. Then the fight with the Sorrow confronts you(not just Snake, you) with your actions thus far, trying to make you rethink how callously you dispatch your foes. Now press R1 after all this happens. With his eye missing, Snake begins to quite literally see things differently. Most of the hidden R1 segments from here on out involve The Sorrow, the specter of death is shown to be guiding his every move. Snake doesn't kill Volgin, he's fried by a random bolt of lightning(summoned by the sorrow, natch). He's still beholden to forces beyond his control or comprehension. The final image we see is a POV shot of Snake tearing up as he stands before The Boss' grave. His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

The important distinction between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that they're inversions of each other. Solid's story in MGS1 was all about him defying his "programming" and moving on to forge his own path despite what his genetic code(nevermind that nothing anyone in this game says about genes makes no fuckin sense, it's all metaphor) and the manipulations surrounding him were supposed to predetermine for him. On the other hand, when we meet Naked Snake he's still young and naive, but we the players know that in the future he will become a villain. In essence, his future is predetermined. Solid took what he learned about the world and used it to form his own set of values. Naked let them possess him and drive his every move. Moreover, Solid's eyepatch in 4 is on the opposite eye.

Metal Gear Solid 2 is about the folly of idolizing Solid Snake, and the danger of wanting to emulate him. The Solid Snake in this game is not the in-universe, canonical legendary soldier of Shadow Moses, but instead the video game character Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid. And this video game character tells you not to take pixels at face value, but instead question who put the pixels there and the meaning behind them.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

holy shit this is long. sorry if this all seems out of order, i could ramble about mgs for a while.
Holykael1
Banned
(04-09-2014, 08:40 PM)
Wow, that's an excellent analysis. Props to you.
Betty
The vision that was Planted in my brain
Does not still remain
(04-09-2014, 08:51 PM)
Betty's Avatar

Originally Posted by beastmode

So, what if The Sorrow... was literally the black revolver The Boss gave Snake?



Okay, I'll play along.

Originally Posted by beastmode

and The Joy was Ocelot's first revolver that couldn't shoot Snake?

It only appeared white, like The Boss' sneaking suit.

The only gun I can possibly think you're referring to is this one.

Which failed to shoot Snake because it was out of ammo, not because it was possessed with the spirit of The Boss who, at the time, was still very much alive.

Originally Posted by beastmode

What if the canon ending of MGS3 for MGSV is Snake choosing The Sorrow and shooting Ocelot?

Then the kid went back to where he first met "John" and finds...

???

I have no idea what you're suggesting.

That Ocelot finds a revolver next to The Sorrow's corpse, and that Skull Face somehow obtains it?

That Skull Face is Ocelot?

The type of weapon you're showing from Ground Zeroes doesn't even appear in Snake Eater....

On second thought...

Randam
Member
(04-09-2014, 08:52 PM)
Randam's Avatar

Originally Posted by beastmode

So, what if The Sorrow... was literally the black revolver The Boss gave Snake?
and The Joy was Ocelot's first revolver that couldn't shoot Snake?

It only appeared white, like The Boss' sneaking suit.

What if the canon ending of MGS3 for MGSV is Snake choosing The Sorrow and shooting Ocelot?

Then the kid went back to where he first met "John" and finds...

http://i.imgur.com/CPYjNZDl.png
http://i.imgur.com/lhwycrsl.jpg
url]http://i.imgur.com/UlTQ1bz.jpg[/url]

woo, slow done there.

so you mean ocelot is dead?
who is john and what does he find?

(so much time past, since I last played the old games)
JayEH
Junior Member
(04-09-2014, 08:55 PM)
JayEH's Avatar

Originally Posted by Randam

woo, slow done there.

so you mean ocelot is dead?
who is john and what does he find?

(so much time past, since I last played the old games)

Not sure if you're joking. But he's been trolling since yesterday. It was funny at first but he's trying too hard now.
Betty
The vision that was Planted in my brain
Does not still remain
(04-09-2014, 08:55 PM)
Betty's Avatar

Originally Posted by Randam

woo, slow done there.

so you mean ocelot is dead?
who is john and what does he find?

(so much time past, since I last played the old games)

Ocelot isn't dead, that picture of the skeleton is the remains of The Sorrow.

John is Big Boss's real name, so far as we know anyway.
R-User!
Member
(04-09-2014, 08:57 PM)
R-User!'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Rogue Agent

The Outer Heaven insignia has a skull in it. This means that Skull Face kills Snake and takes his place - he wears Snake's skin on his skull face.

So Solid Snake never killed his "father"?!?!
tensuke
Member
(04-09-2014, 09:12 PM)
tensuke's Avatar

Originally Posted by beastmode

So, what if The Sorrow... was literally the black revolver The Boss gave Snake?
and The Joy was Ocelot's first revolver that couldn't shoot Snake?

It only appeared white, like The Boss' sneaking suit.

What if the canon ending of MGS3 for MGSV is Snake choosing The Sorrow and shooting Ocelot?

Then the kid went back to where he first met "John" and finds...

are you high
KittenMaster
Member
(04-09-2014, 09:14 PM)
KittenMaster's Avatar

Originally Posted by tensuke

are you high

nanomachines
jsnepo
Member
(04-09-2014, 09:14 PM)
jsnepo's Avatar

Originally Posted by beastmode

So, what if The Sorrow... was literally the black revolver The Boss gave Snake?
and The Joy was Ocelot's first revolver that couldn't shoot Snake?

It only appeared white, like The Boss' sneaking suit.

What if the canon ending of MGS3 for MGSV is Snake choosing The Sorrow and shooting Ocelot?

Then the kid went back to where he first met "John" and finds...

http://i.imgur.com/CPYjNZDl.png
http://i.imgur.com/lhwycrsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UlTQ1bz.jpg

This made me laugh. It's a great post parody of some of the dumbest theories I have read in the history of the MGS games beating even those from the old Gamespot/GameFAQs forums prior to MGS3's release.
Rogue Agent
Banned
(04-09-2014, 09:26 PM)

Originally Posted by R-User!

So Solid Snake never killed his "father"?!?!

Exactly. Solid Snake actually killed Skull Face. This means that Big Boss even failed to kill Skull Face. What a pathetic failure of a man. His 'son' basically finished many things that he never accomplished.
Holykael1
Banned
(04-09-2014, 09:30 PM)

Originally Posted by Rogue Agent

Exactly. Solid Snake actually killed Skull Face. This means that Big Boss even failed to kill Skull Face. What a pathetic failure of a man. His 'son' basically finished many things that he never accomplished.

That's way too far fetched.
MGS 4's Big Boss speech invalidates that theory.
Screaming Meat
Member
(04-09-2014, 09:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Holykael1

That's way too far fetched.
MGS 4's Big Boss speech invalidates that theory.

UNLESS THAT WAS REALLY SKULLFACE POSSESED BY THE SPIRIT OF BIG BOSS HIDDEN IN THE EYEPATCH

Open your eye(s), sheeple!
Holykael1
Banned
(04-09-2014, 09:56 PM)

Originally Posted by Screaming Meat

UNLESS THAT WAS REALLY SKULLFACE POSSESED BY THE SPIRIT OF BIG BOSS HIDDEN IN THE EYEPATCH

Open your eye(s), sheeple!

OMG, I see the light.
Screaming Meat
Member
(04-09-2014, 09:59 PM)

Originally Posted by Holykael1

OMG, I see the light.

That's what they want you to think.
Rogue Agent
Banned
(04-09-2014, 10:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Holykael1

That's way too far fetched.
MGS 4's Big Boss speech invalidates that theory.

MGS4's Big Boss is the real one from 1984, who was revived by nanomachines after Skull Face killed him. In 1984, before his death, he committed a lot of messed up deeds to take down Skull Face and Cipher.
Sami+
Member
(04-09-2014, 10:24 PM)
Sami+'s Avatar

Originally Posted by rosaceadude2112

This is pretty bunk, dude. Not that you're wrong, but bunk in the sense that this is portrayed as a fault with the series, something it's failed to accomplish, rather than one of its fundamental themes

The tragedy of Big Boss isn't that he becomes a bad guy, it's that he strives for an ideal that doesn't exist. After learning the truth about the Boss' defection, what he wants is to prevent another soldier from ever being the victim of political machinations again.He establishes Outer Heaven so soldiers can simply be soldiers, without being bound by the wills of suits and desk jockeys. But what he fails to realize is that there's no such thing as a neutral act of violence. A soldier fighting for Big Boss is no different than a soldier fighting for the Soviet Union. He becomes the thing he hates the most.

Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.

The most important series of events in 3 is Snake's capture, torture and escape culminating in the boss fight with The Sorrow. The torture (In a microcosm of the whole game, the torture is first concealed behind a veil before it's gruesome nature is revealed) is the most graphic in the series up to this point, and there's certainly no way to "win" it like before. In Snake's cell we meet Johnny, who is actually somewhat of a warm and comforting presence. Johnny provides a humanity to all the enemy soldiers you've been facing thus far. He shows kindness to Snake, something rarely shown happening between opposing soldiers. Then the fight with the Sorrow confronts you(not just Snake, you) with your actions thus far, trying to make you rethink how callously you dispatch your foes. Now press R1 after all this happens. With his eye missing, Snake begins to quite literally see things differently. Most of the hidden R1 segments from here on out involve The Sorrow, the specter of death is shown to be guiding his every move. Snake doesn't kill Volgin, he's fried by a random bolt of lightning(summoned by the sorrow, natch). He's still beholden to forces beyond his control or comprehension. The final image we see is a POV shot of Snake tearing up as he stands before The Boss' grave. His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

The important distinction between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that they're inversions of each other. Solid's story in MGS1 was all about him defying his "programming" and moving on to forge his own path despite what his genetic code(nevermind that nothing anyone in this game says about genes makes no fuckin sense, it's all metaphor) and the manipulations surrounding him were supposed to predetermine for him. On the other hand, when we meet Naked Snake he's still young and naive, but we the players know that in the future he will become a villain. In essence, his future is predetermined. Solid took what he learned about the world and used it to form his own set of values. Naked let them possess him and drive his every move. Moreover, Solid's eyepatch in 4 is on the opposite eye.

Metal Gear Solid 2 is about the folly of idolizing Solid Snake, and the danger of wanting to emulate him. The Solid Snake in this game is not the in-universe, canonical legendary soldier of Shadow Moses, but instead the video game character Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid. And this video game character tells you not to take pixels at face value, but instead question who put the pixels there and the meaning behind them.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

holy shit this is long. sorry if this all seems out of order, i could ramble about mgs for a while.

Woah, this is great. Props, dude!
SMZC
Member
(04-09-2014, 10:26 PM)

Originally Posted by rosaceadude2112

His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

I agree, actually. I don't want Big Boss to be free of his traumas, because they define him, indeed. My problem with the way this is handled is that Big Boss still lets the people around him dictate his every move. It's not the traumas guiding him; it's everyone and everything but his emotional damage. In order to properly depict the power that Big Boss' emotional scars have over him, he should stop doing what others tell him, there's no other way around it. The E3 2013 trailer, showing a more resentful, bitter and blood-thirsty Kaz than Big Boss, is not a good sign of where things are going.
Screaming Meat
Member
(04-09-2014, 10:36 PM)

Originally Posted by rosaceadude2112

This is pretty bunk, dude. Not that you're wrong, but bunk in the sense that this is portrayed as a fault with the series, something it's failed to accomplish, rather than one of its fundamental themes

The tragedy of Big Boss isn't that he becomes a bad guy, it's that he strives for an ideal that doesn't exist. After learning the truth about the Boss' defection, what he wants is to prevent another soldier from ever being the victim of political machinations again.He establishes Outer Heaven so soldiers can simply be soldiers, without being bound by the wills of suits and desk jockeys. But what he fails to realize is that there's no such thing as a neutral act of violence. A soldier fighting for Big Boss is no different than a soldier fighting for the Soviet Union. He becomes the thing he hates the most.

Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.

The most important series of events in 3 is Snake's capture, torture and escape culminating in the boss fight with The Sorrow. The torture (In a microcosm of the whole game, the torture is first concealed behind a veil before it's gruesome nature is revealed) is the most graphic in the series up to this point, and there's certainly no way to "win" it like before. In Snake's cell we meet Johnny, who is actually somewhat of a warm and comforting presence. Johnny provides a humanity to all the enemy soldiers you've been facing thus far. He shows kindness to Snake, something rarely shown happening between opposing soldiers. Then the fight with the Sorrow confronts you(not just Snake, you) with your actions thus far, trying to make you rethink how callously you dispatch your foes. Now press R1 after all this happens. With his eye missing, Snake begins to quite literally see things differently. Most of the hidden R1 segments from here on out involve The Sorrow, the specter of death is shown to be guiding his every move. Snake doesn't kill Volgin, he's fried by a random bolt of lightning(summoned by the sorrow, natch). He's still beholden to forces beyond his control or comprehension. The final image we see is a POV shot of Snake tearing up as he stands before The Boss' grave. His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

The important distinction between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that they're inversions of each other. Solid's story in MGS1 was all about him defying his "programming" and moving on to forge his own path despite what his genetic code(nevermind that nothing anyone in this game says about genes makes no fuckin sense, it's all metaphor) and the manipulations surrounding him were supposed to predetermine for him. On the other hand, when we meet Naked Snake he's still young and naive, but we the players know that in the future he will become a villain. In essence, his future is predetermined. Solid took what he learned about the world and used it to form his own set of values. Naked let them possess him and drive his every move. Moreover, Solid's eyepatch in 4 is on the opposite eye.

Metal Gear Solid 2 is about the folly of idolizing Solid Snake, and the danger of wanting to emulate him. The Solid Snake in this game is not the in-universe, canonical legendary soldier of Shadow Moses, but instead the video game character Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid. And this video game character tells you not to take pixels at face value, but instead question who put the pixels there and the meaning behind them.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

holy shit this is long. sorry if this all seems out of order, i could ramble about mgs for a while.

Jesus... That's really insightful, man!
JayEH
Junior Member
(04-09-2014, 11:00 PM)
JayEH's Avatar
What if Jack Bauer is using the animus to play as Big Boss? Big Boss' real name is Jack right? So Jack Bauer goes through the time to find the best "Jacks" in history.

In his research who does he find? Of course Jack/Naked Snake?Big Boss. He gets in the animus and begins to replay the history of Big Boss during GZ/TPP.

The explanation for the change in voice? In one of the audio files in AC4 it is established that characters can speak while in the animus. (I think, someone can fact check this). What we're hearing is Jack's voice throughout the game. Everyone else is hearing David Hayter's voice. To hear David Hayter's voice is a pre-order bonus/unlockable.
Graphics Horse
graphics horse
graphics horse
does whatever a
graphics horse does
(04-09-2014, 11:03 PM)
Graphics Horse's Avatar

Originally Posted by JayEH

What if Jack Bauer is using the animus to play as Big Boss? Big Boss' real name is Jack right? So Jack Bauer goes through the time to find the best "Jacks" in history.

In his research who does he find? Of course Jack/Naked Snake?Big Boss. He gets in the animus and begins to replay the history of Big Boss during GZ/TPP.

The explanation for the change in voice? In one of the audio files in AC4 it is established that characters can speak while in the animus. (I think, someone can fact check this). What we're hearing is Jack's voice throughout the game. Everyone else is hearing David Hayter's voice. To hear David Hayter's voice is a pre-order bonus/unlockable.

Good theory, this would explain the AC references in recent games.
disappeared
Member
(04-09-2014, 11:09 PM)

Originally Posted by JayEH

What if Jack Bauer is using the animus to play as Big Boss? Big Boss' real name is Jack right? So Jack Bauer goes through the time to find the best "Jacks" in history.

In his research who does he find? Of course Jack/Naked Snake?Big Boss. He gets in the animus and begins to replay the history of Big Boss during GZ/TPP.

The explanation for the change in voice? In one of the audio files in AC4 it is established that characters can speak while in the animus. (I think, someone can fact check this). What we're hearing is Jack's voice throughout the game. Everyone else is hearing David Hayter's voice. To hear David Hayter's voice is a pre-order bonus/unlockable.

That is just crazy enough to be a possibility.
R-User!
Member
(04-09-2014, 11:49 PM)
R-User!'s Avatar

Originally Posted by disappeared

That is just crazy enough to be a possibility.

$50.00 DLC...
R-User!
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:02 AM)
R-User!'s Avatar

Originally Posted by Holykael1

No greater good. No just cause.. WoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
can't get enough of this trailer.

Link?
Holykael1
Banned
(04-10-2014, 12:08 AM)

Originally Posted by R-User!

Link?

http://youtu.be/INx-SVeld3k
Betty
The vision that was Planted in my brain
Does not still remain
(04-10-2014, 12:09 AM)
Betty's Avatar

Originally Posted by R-User!

Link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-c1a5c55-8

EDIT: Beaten.
Muffdraul
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:24 AM)
Muffdraul's Avatar
Pretty sure I do remember Kojima saying many, many years ago, possibly after MGS2, that he would no longer direct MGS games- that someone under him would have to step up to the plate and he would only oversee, produce, whatever. I don't think I imagined that. Apparently he later decided that wasn't going to work and accepted that he'd just have to keep directing them himself after all. It doesn't seem that weird to me. No reason to assume it's a lie or some bullshit fan myth.
Mr. RHC
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:24 AM)
Mr. RHC's Avatar

Originally Posted by Betty



Okay, I'll play along.


The only gun I can possibly think you're referring to is this one.



Which failed to shoot Snake because it was out of ammo, not because it was possessed with the spirit of The Boss who, at the time, was still very much alive.



???

I have no idea what you're suggesting.

That Ocelot finds a revolver next to The Sorrow's corpse, and that Skull Face somehow obtains it?

That Skull Face is Ocelot?

The type of weapon you're showing from Ground Zeroes doesn't even appear in Snake Eater....

On second thought...

Lolol,perfect.
ToyMachine228
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:30 AM)
ToyMachine228's Avatar

Originally Posted by rosaceadude2112

This is pretty bunk, dude. Not that you're wrong, but bunk in the sense that this is portrayed as a fault with the series, something it's failed to accomplish, rather than one of its fundamental themes

The tragedy of Big Boss isn't that he becomes a bad guy, it's that he strives for an ideal that doesn't exist. After learning the truth about the Boss' defection, what he wants is to prevent another soldier from ever being the victim of political machinations again.He establishes Outer Heaven so soldiers can simply be soldiers, without being bound by the wills of suits and desk jockeys. But what he fails to realize is that there's no such thing as a neutral act of violence. A soldier fighting for Big Boss is no different than a soldier fighting for the Soviet Union. He becomes the thing he hates the most.

Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.

The most important series of events in 3 is Snake's capture, torture and escape culminating in the boss fight with The Sorrow. The torture (In a microcosm of the whole game, the torture is first concealed behind a veil before it's gruesome nature is revealed) is the most graphic in the series up to this point, and there's certainly no way to "win" it like before. In Snake's cell we meet Johnny, who is actually somewhat of a warm and comforting presence. Johnny provides a humanity to all the enemy soldiers you've been facing thus far. He shows kindness to Snake, something rarely shown happening between opposing soldiers. Then the fight with the Sorrow confronts you(not just Snake, you) with your actions thus far, trying to make you rethink how callously you dispatch your foes. Now press R1 after all this happens. With his eye missing, Snake begins to quite literally see things differently. Most of the hidden R1 segments from here on out involve The Sorrow, the specter of death is shown to be guiding his every move. Snake doesn't kill Volgin, he's fried by a random bolt of lightning(summoned by the sorrow, natch). He's still beholden to forces beyond his control or comprehension. The final image we see is a POV shot of Snake tearing up as he stands before The Boss' grave. His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

The important distinction between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that they're inversions of each other. Solid's story in MGS1 was all about him defying his "programming" and moving on to forge his own path despite what his genetic code(nevermind that nothing anyone in this game says about genes makes no fuckin sense, it's all metaphor) and the manipulations surrounding him were supposed to predetermine for him. On the other hand, when we meet Naked Snake he's still young and naive, but we the players know that in the future he will become a villain. In essence, his future is predetermined. Solid took what he learned about the world and used it to form his own set of values. Naked let them possess him and drive his every move. Moreover, Solid's eyepatch in 4 is on the opposite eye.

Metal Gear Solid 2 is about the folly of idolizing Solid Snake, and the danger of wanting to emulate him. The Solid Snake in this game is not the in-universe, canonical legendary soldier of Shadow Moses, but instead the video game character Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid. And this video game character tells you not to take pixels at face value, but instead question who put the pixels there and the meaning behind them.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

holy shit this is long. sorry if this all seems out of order, i could ramble about mgs for a while.

The grander story arc can still accomplish all the things that you are making note of, while allowing Big Boss to be a more decisive character, Again, he's supposed to have recruited all these soldiers and they supposedly look up to him, but for what reason? It's not because he is out there telling these soldiers to fight on their own terms and not to be a blunt instrument for someone else's cause. My problem is we are just supposed to assume that everyone respects Big Boss but we never really see any of his deeds or interactions outside of his actual field work and his interactions with characters like Kaz.

Like I said, my problem is with the presentation. Instead of Big Boss speaking and delivering the main story details, in Metal Gear Solid games, it's always the supporting cast who delivers the story details and Snake (Whichever one) who fills in blanks to point things out to the player. I just want to see a Big Boss that actually stands up for whatever it is he thinks he is standing up for instead of just taking orders from Kaz or whoever else and just going with the flow without any of his own input or opinions being put out there whatsoever.

Case in point in Ground Zeroes: While Kaz is explaining the mission to Boss in the opening cutscene, Big Boss says something along the lines of "So what do you want me to do, go in and silence the targets?" He never alludes to the fact that doing so would be just randomly killing "targets" that he happens to know and are still children. He's just like "O OK THNX KAZ, I GO KILL EVERYONE NOW." Part of this may be due to the constraints of being a very short one mission game. But in The Phantom Pain, I want to see Big Boss doing the things that Big Boss WANTS to do, whether they end up being for the right reasons, or end up benefiting someone else instead. I want to see him saying, Yes, I am going to go do this, because it's what I believe in.

In that same opening dialogue, one of the only things he really says is something about a slice of American pie on communist soil or something like that. A footnote comment, not dialogue defining the character. Most modern game protagonists are written in the opposite fashion. Supporting cast are used to point out things like that and the main character delivers the "important" stuff. The things surrounding the game's themes.

All I'm saying is, for being such a legend, Big Boss hasn't exactly showcased these ideals that he is fighting for on-screen so much yet. It's kind of assumed. Solid Snake WAS a blunt instrument. That was his story. But I want to see Big Boss break that mold forcefully on his own terms. Snake Eater was about Big Boss realizing that and rethinking his approach and loyalties. So let's see that come to fruition in the actual way the character behaves, not just by the events being written.

All in all, I absolutely love Metal Gear Solid and I think Ground Zeroes is absolutely awesome. I just want to see the Big Boss we see in The Phantom Pain who has gone through all we have seen him go through and now narrowly escapes death again step back and say...Hey, I'm not going to keep my mouth shut anymore. I'm going to spend the rest of my life pushing for X,Y and Z BECAUSE X,Y, and Z.
ItsGeeMcGee
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:31 AM)
ItsGeeMcGee's Avatar

Originally Posted by JayEH

What if Jack Bauer is using the animus to play as Big Boss? Big Boss' real name is Jack right? So Jack Bauer goes through the time to find the best "Jacks" in history.

In his research who does he find? Of course Jack/Naked Snake?Big Boss. He gets in the animus and begins to replay the history of Big Boss during GZ/TPP.

The explanation for the change in voice? In one of the audio files in AC4 it is established that characters can speak while in the animus. (I think, someone can fact check this). What we're hearing is Jack's voice throughout the game. Everyone else is hearing David Hayter's voice. To hear David Hayter's voice is a pre-order bonus/unlockable.

It finally makes sense
Doctor_Thomas
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:36 AM)
Doctor_Thomas's Avatar

Originally Posted by ToyMachine228

Case in point in Ground Zeroes: While Kaz is explaining the mission to Boss in the opening cutscene, Big Boss says something along the lines of "So what do you want me to do, go in and silence the targets?" He never alludes to the fact that doing so would be just randomly killing "targets" that he happens to know and are still children. He's just like "O OK THNX KAZ, I GO KILL EVERYONE NOW." Part of this may be due to the constraints of being a very short one mission game. But in The Phantom Pain, I want to see Big Boss doing the things that Big Boss WANTS to do, whether they end up being for the right reasons, or end up benefiting someone else instead. I want to see him saying, Yes, I am going to go do this, because it's what I believe in.

It may me the missions length, because the other ops do give you a chance to change it up to a degree, but it would be nice if the expanded to the full game/main mission where, for example, you could eliminate a target, eliminating him means you lose out on valuable research or intel, but keeping him alive causes a member of your support crew or whatever to hate this choice and eventually leave or cause some problem down the line for you. A degree or variability, I guess.

I really hope GZ isn't an indication of how much Big Boss will speak in the game, because it's pitifully limited. Cost probably plays a part, but if it does, I can't say it's worth it for a near silent protagonist.
Rogue Agent
Banned
(04-10-2014, 12:54 AM)

Originally Posted by ToyMachine228

Case in point in Ground Zeroes: While Kaz is explaining the mission to Boss in the opening cutscene, Big Boss says something along the lines of "So what do you want me to do, go in and silence the targets?" He never alludes to the fact that doing so would be just randomly killing "targets" that he happens to know and are still children. He's just like "O OK THNX KAZ, I GO KILL EVERYONE NOW."

He is consulting with his friend, who's a strategist. Should they silence Paz before she leaks stuff on MSF? But Kaz had a different idea, of using her. It's just consultation. Leaders can consult with people. Snake is also happy with Kaz coming up with the ideas and they don't always agree.
cackhyena
Member
(04-10-2014, 12:55 AM)
cackhyena's Avatar
It has to be that early on they knew GZ was going to be what it is now, and planned accordingly with Sutherland. You'll get more talk in TPP cuz that's where the money is going...unless that crazy vid about it all being a simulation is true and we get another MGS2 like twist. You know what? It's been long enough, I could go for that.
Screaming Meat
Member
(04-10-2014, 01:23 AM)

Originally Posted by ToyMachine228

My problem is we are just supposed to assume that everyone respects Big Boss but we never really see any of his deeds or interactions outside of his actual field work and his interactions with characters like Kaz.

Guard: "Isn't that Big Boss, the legendary soldier who single handedly saved the world from nuclear war 3 times and killed both The Boss and Gene in hand to hand combat? I heard he even took out a giant bipedal nuclear tank once!"

ToyMachine: "Meh."

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