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Will Hiroyuki Ito (FF6/FF9/FF12 game director) return to direct FFXV?

Seriously, though, isn't it likely at this point that Versus really is going to be 15? Or is that just a running gag?

And if so, whatever else is underway (by Ito potentially) becomes 16?
 

Verendus

Banned
Seriously, though, isn't it likely at this point that Versus really is going to be 15? Or is that just a running gag?

And if so, whatever else is underway (by Hiroyuki potentially) becomes 16?
Interesting.

I'm of the opinion Versus becomes Kingdom Hearts 3. But your opinion is cool too. We can co-exist.
 

Soriku

Junior Member
No, I don't think it's doomed. That would be way too pessimistic, and it would mean that somehow S-E is never going to be able to prop themselves back up or fix their production problems. But I also don't think there's some magic switch which they can flip and make an amazing game which turns public opinion around immediately.

I think that investing heavily in good tech for future generations in advance is a good step, if the Luminous engine can indeed do what they say it can, it would help make things easier when they have to jump to the next-gen, which is presumably really soon. I think that allowing someone like Naoki Yoshida who has never worked on any FF title before FFXIV, to attempt to save FFXIV because he believes he has what it takes, is also a good step to discovering more management talent within the company.

It's still a long road though, and I don't think S-E can really shake off the negativity from this generation until they clear the plate which they originally promised at the start of the generation. Versus is a huge elephant in the room, and until they address the status of that title and deal with it somehow, I don't think the core fans of the company will be willing to move on and judge their future output fairly.

I think they kinda have the right idea with FF XIII --> XIII-2 --> Lightning Returns with how they should allocate and reuse resources to pump out games faster, but they just need better people heading the teams if people don't want Toriyama. Even if people don't like the games that much due to their direction, the fast output is definitely good. Hopefully Luminous allows them to make games more efficiently. FF XV will take a while to develop, but after that they should (hopefully) learn to take advantage of what they've spent time to make.

Trying to find the talented managers and letting other people step in is a potentially good step, too.

We'll see I guess. I don't know if SE can afford another gen where they run into the same problems. They really had to have made Luminous to produce these games better.
 

YAWN

Ask me which Shakespeare novel is best
Considering VI/IX/XII are my top fave FFs, I sure hope so.
Throw in Akihiko Yoshida as the concept artist too while your at it Square.
 
I would like to see Ito back as he's done a lot of good things for FF over the years. On the other hand, I'd rather not see him get Matsuno'd or Tanaka'd, so I can totally understand if he'd rather lay low with Kawazu and company.
 

JJD

Member
Wow, I didn't know this. Dude directed my 2 favorite FF (6 and 12).

I hope he returns to the main series some day.
 
Yoshida and Ito should just be doing a FFV remake. Preferably on the 3DS so it can actually come out at some point. :(
God, yeah, I need this. I still hate the universe for FF4 DS's lackluster sales. FFV remake could so, so easily be the best handheld JRPG ever if it had a more modernized Job system.

On the other hand, maybe Ito is overseeing FFX HD and the battle system and difficulty level are getting an upgrade .
 
God, yeah, I need this. I still hate the universe for FF4 DS's lackluster sales. FFV remake could so, so easily be the best handheld JRPG ever if it had a more modernized Job system.

On the other hand, maybe Ito is overseeing FFX HD and the battle system and difficulty level are getting an upgrade .

how can you possibly upgrade Tsuchida's brilliant FFX battle system? :p
 

Mxrz

Member
I really hope so.

Not because I think Ito can "save" the series, I don't think the series needs saving, but simply for the chance of having a fun game-y FF again. 12 was perfect in that regard. It had early access to areas beyond your level, plenty of marks at all stages--not just the end game, lots of rare drops to farm that actually made a difference in combat, and a genuinely fun battle system that didn't involve tapping X over-and-over. I'd like another game like that, yes.

Bonus points if he can find someone to whip out another political story-line, and not yet another teenyboppers-go-kill-god-save-world-blah-blah.
 
I think the biggest problem with the "Ito will save FF!!!" theory is that FF isn't in serious trouble because the leads are terrible people who cannot do anything good. The larger and more significant problem is that FF is in trouble because the expectations of what a FF game is in terms of spectacle and scope scaled very poorly with the rising technical requirements of modern technology. It became increasingly expensive and increasingly hard to create the sort of experience expected of a FF game, and this leads to more and more pressure on the leads who previously had less to worry about.

This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.

Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.

Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.

Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.

Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.

This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.

Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.


At some point, the people leading these efforts have to be held responsible for whatever production /management issues arise while working on all of these enormous projects. You can’t keep assigning the same people to do the same thing time and again and expect dramatically different results, but all of that is really beside the point. I think you are misdiagnosing the problem with modern FF games when you speak exclusively about the various machinations in the business end of SE.

I don't blame SE for the technological hurdles they faced with the FFXIII and its sequels / spin-offs/etc. They’ve always tried to push the series to the limit as far as technology is concerned, and the HD wall proved to be a challenging one for them to cross. That’s fine. But to be honest, the ability to achieve a specific level of technical prowess, or the way in which the process was managed/mismanaged was the least offensive part of FFXIII’s development, so that wasn’t really the main focus here, nor was it the reason why I wanted to talk about Ito and FFXV.

It was vision. Creative vision. Something that is seriously lacking in the series today.

It’s something entirely separate from the ability to manage huge development teams, multi-million dollar budgets, or the ability to meet technical expectations of what a HD FF needs to be in the modern era. That’s why producers, executive producers, budget directors, etc exist. To deal with the nuts and bolts. All the director should be concerned with is thinking about how to make his vision come to life, finding the right people (artists/programmers, writers, etc) to make that happen, communicating it in a way that brings everyone on the same page, and executing on the idea. Modern FF games reflect Toriyama’s vision. His team of writers. His artists. His character designers. His battle directors. That’s the problem most people have with the series, and SE, today. He's also gone on record saying that he strongly believes in Kitase's "Interactive Movie RPG" approach where the game is streamlined to a point where gameplay takes a back seat and the characters become the focus. He's actually said that he thinks gameplay should not be the primary focus . This is a problem exclusive to this director/producer. When I compare that approach to game design to the philosophy outlined in the quote from Ito in my OP, the choice becomes clear. Directors matter.

I don’t believe, nor do I think I indicated in my OP, that Ito can come in a wave a magic wand and fix everything that’s wrong with the series. I do believe, though, that his vision for the games that he’s lead (as a director, co-director, or game designer) better reflect the kinds of things I want to see in a FF game. His influence in a leading role like "game director" is crucial in making those ideas the focus of the next big FF. He wouldn’t be doing this alone, and no one ever said he would be. If there’s someone more adept at handling budgets than he, they will be assigned, or he will assign them. We’ve seen what Toriyama and Kitase can do. Ito could absolutely do something very different, and probably better, if given the opportunity.
 

fvng

Member
Interesting.

I'm of the opinion Versus becomes Kingdom Hearts 3. But your opinion is cool too. We can co-exist.

The whole appeal of versus for me is having a primary party of four adult males. I've been waiting for a shot of testosterone for this series for a long time now.

If you transplant that to kingdom hearts setting that is aimed at children I automatically lose interest.
 
I think the biggest problem with the "Ito will save FF!!!" theory is that FF isn't in serious trouble because the leads are terrible people who cannot do anything good. The larger and more significant problem is that FF is in trouble because the expectations of what a FF game is in terms of spectacle and scope scaled very poorly with the rising technical requirements of modern technology. It became increasingly expensive and increasingly hard to create the sort of experience expected of a FF game, and this leads to more and more pressure on the leads who previously had less to worry about.

This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.

Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.

Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.

Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.

Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.

This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.

Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.

Seeing that Yoshida managed to get FF XIV 1.0 team + fuckton of new people and managed to remake an MMO in 2 years while follwing the roadmap without big problems (they had to delay part of the roadmap but just as measure to improve the game)
gave me some hope for the future FF games.

Yoshida directed a few minor games before having to deal with one of the larguest SE teams ever and he's doing a great job alongside the other leads.
 
WTF did they assign him to IOS trash like FF ATB in the first place?

He probably one of the few dudes left in the building who's up to the task of directing that old-school legendary FF that'll propell Squee back to god status.

Hacks like Toriyama get rewarded and legends like Ito gets discarded. I don't even...
 
If he makes it anywhere close to how crazy detailed the world of Ivalice for XII was...and fills it with such energy and character like Gaia from IX....XV will be a drop dead amazing game.
 

Aeana

Member
WTF did they assign him to IOS trash like FF ATB in the first place?

He probably one of the few dudes left in the building who's up to the task of directing that old-school legendary FF that'll propell Squee back to god status.

Hacks like Toriyama get rewarded and legends like Ito gets discarded.
They didn't. That's a different Ito. This Ito worked on Guardian Cross for iOS, though.
 
I think the biggest problem with the "Ito will save FF!!!" theory is that FF isn't in serious trouble because the leads are terrible people who cannot do anything good. The larger and more significant problem is that FF is in trouble because the expectations of what a FF game is in terms of spectacle and scope scaled very poorly with the rising technical requirements of modern technology. It became increasingly expensive and increasingly hard to create the sort of experience expected of a FF game, and this leads to more and more pressure on the leads who previously had less to worry about.

This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.

Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.

Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.

Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.

Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.

This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.

Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.

Really puts some things in perspective, though it is still easy to blame certain individuals when they make outlandish claims pertaining to game design. Whether those statements are taken out of context or not is another story.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
I'd have to look at how responsible he is for FF12 before I sign off on him saving FF.

I know it is a polarizing feature, but turning ATB into a simplified AI programming routine was to me such a terrible design decision as to be inexplicable. If he was responsible for that part of FF12 I'd say he lost his touch.

I only partially agree with Duckroll. I think most of the problems with FF are because the actual gameplay systems themselves are worse than predecessors, not just disappointment from not having that FF grandness. Completely agree that Square has a disfunctional development process right now.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
It was a convenience feature for the sped-up style XII had. I used it to supplement controlling characters directly. I could see it being divisive if it was the only way to control your party... but it wasn't. I thought it was a blessing compared to doing the same actions over and over through menus, it was like a smarter version of the macro system from Phantasy Star games.

So giving the player the tools to slightly make bearable a tedious and repetitive combat system is better than just having a meaningful and engaging combat system?

Yea, I circumvented it too just like you did when it was necessary. And the fights that required constant intervention were much more enjoyable. But it still doesn't change the fact that 90% of that game could be easily breezed over by programming an AI system and then going to sleep any time a battle occurred. Why even have those battles I have to ask myself? It is pure padding. And yes I know that is true of most jrpgs, but FFXII called your attention to the padding deliberately.

To give you an example of what I find to be the most engaging battle system in a FF, I point to FFX-2. Meaningful choices in the planning stages in terms of kitting out your dress boards or whatever they were called, and then meaningful differences between characters throughout the entire game. Sure it suffers from the tedious fill battles too, but it handled it in a more player engaging way than FFXII.
 
I know it is a polarizing feature, but turning ATB into a simplified AI programming routine was to me such a terrible design decision as to be inexplicable. If he was responsible for that part of FF12 I'd say he lost his touch.

Lost his touch? Gambit is the best thing introduced to the FF series ever. Too bad it took many years before they reached parity with the Macros system introduced in Phantasy Star IV on the Sega Genesis to speed up combat significantly. Also no random encounters and visible enemies on the screen, another vast improvement in the series.

Also the inclusion of the L1 button 2x/3x speed up for movement and combat in FF XII IJZS makes the vanilla FF XII impossible to return to, even with the loss of a generalized License Board for all your characters.

EDIT:- animlboogy said it better than I ever could.
 

Cwarrior

Member
I think the biggest problem with the "Ito will save FF!!!" theory is that FF isn't in serious trouble because the leads are terrible people who cannot do anything good. The larger and more significant problem is that FF is in trouble because the expectations of what a FF game is in terms of spectacle and scope scaled very poorly with the rising technical requirements of modern technology. It became increasingly expensive and increasingly hard to create the sort of experience expected of a FF game, and this leads to more and more pressure on the leads who previously had less to worry about.

This is a problem which cannot be solved just by putting one person whose previous worked people liked in charge. Without enough experience handling and managing large development teams, it is extremely unrealistic to think that someone can step in and just fix things. If there are other people who are capable in team management and productivity-efficiency who can help in such a project, good design leads would be great. But without such people available, it would just be a waste.

Matsuno was and is still considered incredibly talented as a game designer and a writer. He led some of the most well liked Squaresoft games in the PS1 era. Yet when given the responsibility of FFXII, he fell apart too.

Toriyama worked on both FFX and FFX-2 which were well liked too. He managed to assemble mostly the same team for FFXIII. Yet it fell apart as well.

Nomura is still considered one of the most talented guys in S-E today, he managed to ship a ton of KH games. Yet Versus is in a total clusterfuck which fans make excuses for every day.

Tanaka was an extremely capable veteran in S-E, he was producer on the Seiken Densetsu games, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and FFXI. FFXI was considered really well run and a huge surprise from S-E at the time. Yet with FFXIV he totally dropped the ball on it.

This is not about bad staff. This is about a systemic problem in their production and management. No matter how talented an individual is, games are not made by one person, especially not huge AAA games like flagship FF titles. They're made by hundreds of people, and therein lies the problem - S-E Japan seems unable to properly manage games which require hundreds of people to develop a title. They seemed to handle things pretty well up until a certain point, and then beyond that their management capability couldn't catch up with the manpower required to make the things they wanted.

Putting Ito in charge of a FF game isn't going to change any of this. Unless they fix those problems first, it will likely end up being another project which is announced as something extremely promising, and then gets delayed over and over only to under-deliver at the end.

This is a great write up and I completely agree with duckroll, putting ito in charger isn't going to magically fix SE fumbling hundred man projects.

They really need outside help.
 
This is great write up and I completely agree with duckroll, putting ito in charger isn't going to magically fix SE fumbling hundred man projects.

They really need outside help.

No, but getting rid of Toriyama and his shit writers would at least make the series more presentable again. Even if the games still go through development hell and don't end up meeting expectations.
 
No, but getting rid of Toriyama and his shit writers would at least make the series more presentable again. Even if the games still go through development hell and don't end up meeting expectations.

Not gonna happen. Not while they're stuck in full on Pimpin' Lightning mode. Toriyama's sold the higher ups on three fucking FF XIII games with Lightning in it, and they've drank the kool-aid.

Declining sales figures and slumps be damned.
 

fvng

Member
Lost his touch? Gambit is the best thing introduced to the FF series ever.

Gambit system was so good. Loved the license grid too.

Kills me how good FFs aren't even ancient history. It wasnt that long ago


Not gonna happen. Not while they're stuck in full on Pimpin' Lightning mode. Toriyama's sold the higher ups on three fucking FF XIII games with Lightning in it, and they've drank the kool-aid.

Declining sales figures and slumps be damned.

True enough but lest anyone gets this twisted, declining sales are due to 13 and 13-2 being subpar not because there is lack of interest in this franchise
 

Cwarrior

Member
No, but getting rid of Toriyama and his shit writers would at least make the series more presentable again. Even if the games still go through development hell and don't end up meeting expectations.

Your right but getting rid of Toriyama is only going to fix the awful painful story and characters what about the tedious dull un-engaging game play how well they fix that without outside help.

they should team up with Capcom and have the next FF15 made by the Dragon dogma team.


CG by square enix and everything else by the DD team, believe.
 

Stark

Banned
He's also gone on record saying that he strongly believes in Kitase's "Interactive Movie RPG" approach where the game is streamlined to a point where gameplay takes a back seat and the characters become the focus. He's actually said that he thinks gameplay should not be the primary focus . This is a problem exclusive to this director/producer.

If there’s someone more adept at handling budgets than he, they will be assigned, or he will assign them. We’ve seen what Toriyama and Kitase can do.

You need to stop lumping Kitase with Toriyama, lol. He is connected to all FNC games to some extent because of PD1. He is as directly involved as he was with Type-0 and could be producer of Ito's game as well. The blame goes straight to the director. And the fact that there has been 3 FFXIII games that he has had to be producer of is probably why I see it so much.

The "Interactive Movie RPG" can be executed quite well as with Kitase's previous games. It's who's at the helm that matters. You can easily struck a good balance with it so that is not the problem.
 

Famassu

Member
This is great write up and I completely agree with duckroll, putting ito in charger isn't going to magically fix SE fumbling hundred man projects.

They really need outside help.
Their problem from PS2 gen forward has been inefficient dev pipelines, which has lead to the kind of problems duckroll described. They are trying to fix that with the Luminous Engine, for which they ARE getting outside help (well, outside Japan, from their western studios). They are finally getting to grips with this kind of "HD" level development, after totally fumbling this gen's console development. The reason we aren't quite seeing the effects of that yet is because they are still kind of "fixing" all the shit that their earlier problems have caused. I do believe that once we are past XIV 2.0, Lightning Returns & Versus XIII (and on to Orbis & Durango), we'll start getting much more consistent quality from their console output.

Or at least I hope so, otherwise all the hard work they've done for a few years now to turn their console development around has been for nothing.

Your right but getting rid of Toriyama is only going to fix the awful painful story and characters what about the tedious dull engaging game play how well they fix that without outside help.
They don't need to outsource their gameplay, don't be ridiculous. Plenty of games prove they still understand how to make games with great gameplay. FFXIII is mostly a victim of troubled development, as far as gameplay goes (though, Toriyama's vision is also to blame).
 

Mxrz

Member
Not gonna happen. Not while they're stuck in full on Pimpin' Lightning mode. Toriyama's sold the higher ups on three fucking FF XIII games with Lightning in it, and they've drank the kool-aid.

Declining sales figures and slumps be damned.

I thought it was the other way - SE asked for more quick-Lightning games while they sorted out the mess of 14 and 13v?
 
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