TUROK
Member
Nope. I like replaying my games. I don't want to take the risk of having my games taken away for whatever reason.Being funny there are you?
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- Thread starter Gowans
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NullPointer
Member
You and me both, although there are other legal options as well. And by 'DRM free' I mean that there is no DRM applied to the files.
DidntKnowJack
Member
The funny thing about all this is we're still in the infancy of DD and before all this started I was already iffy on it. Maybe we are making a mountain out of a molehill of this Steam thing, but this doesn't seem to bode well for the future.
GoofsterStud
Member
Edited to include you
For you sure. For those people that don't agree who are locked out of licenses they haven't used... What do say to them? Give up your morals and values it's not worth it? Deal with getting ripped off? What?
CecilRousso
Member
I understand that, but boxed PC games are not more DRM free then digital purchases.
CDs are drm free.
I don't understand how, in a thread where Valve is threatening to lock someone out of all their purchases, someone can say "I trust Valve they don't do bad things."
They are doing bad things. That's what this thread is about. Locking people out of their purchases is pretty much the worst thing a DD platform can do.
They are doing bad things. That's what this thread is about. Locking people out of their purchases is pretty much the worst thing a DD platform can do.
lastplayed
Member
Trouble is, even if you have a boxed copy of something like Skyrim, no Steam = no game.
GoofsterStud
Member
Technically they are only DRM free because of a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT.
I just want to make sure we all understand that. If it wasn't for the CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT cds would still have hidden drm you didn't know you were installing.
"Sony BMG has struck a deal with the plaintiffs in a class action lawsuit over copy-restriction software it used in music CDs, according to a settlement document filed at a New York court Wednesday." Is one such example.
" In the settlement filing, Sony states that it will immediately recall all XCP CDs and replace them with non-content-protected CDs. It has also agreed to offer incentives to U.S. customers to "ensure that XCP CDs are promptly removed from the market." Sony first released details about its CD recall scheme in late November. "
Source: http://news.cnet.com/Sony-settles-rootkit-class-action-lawsuit/2100-1002_3-6012173.html
This is but one example of CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS protecting the consumer from harmful DRM.
It is not ultimate protection. It's very good protection but it's not so skewed in favour of the consumer as to bring down the whole system of capitalism and free contract. Have you read Sch 2 of the act? The remedy for an unfair contract term is that you have to go to a court and get it declared unfair, once that is done you are only entitled to remedies under the act if they then try to rely on those terms. It can be a pretty annoying process for an individual consumer. The ACCC of course has huge powers and resources that they can use to invalidate contracts on your behalf but they won't touch this unless a lot of people ring in to complain.
Still, this does NOT apply in Australia as I have been saying for the last week. No court in Australia is going to look at that arbitration clause and deem it valid. There are several glaring problems with it, the first is that it is vague and doesn't detail a process of ADR (alternative dispute resolution) which is required under Australian Common Law. Secondly, the arbitration they talk about doesn't exist here. ADR is more centered around mediation and negotiation then arbitration. We use courts to settle our disputes if we can't agree to a solution, not arbitrators. (See, constitutional law cases on Ch 3 such as Biolermakers and Re Wakim) Only a COURT in Australia is able to exercise Judicial power, U.S style arbitration FOR THE MOST PART is unconstitutional here.
TL,DR: Australians don't have anything to worry about.
EDIT: It's also worth mentioning the class action in Australia is a very different creature to the class action in the U.S.
Speedymanic
Banned
Surprising that Steam, the company many people exalt as the company many should copy or aspire to be based on their alleged pro consumer stance and pro consumer approach to business, would do something so underhanded and outright illegal in some countries to their userbase.
Not surprising though, all companies eventually start to show their true colors once they believe they have a monopoly in their market. It seems Steam is no different in this regard.
Not surprising though, all companies eventually start to show their true colors once they believe they have a monopoly in their market. It seems Steam is no different in this regard.
GoofsterStud
Member
It has in the US... :-/
Huh, I'm pretty sure this is old news and was always the biggest issue that people had with Steam. Steam TOS was always garbage for the customer and probably always will be till drastic changes happen within the US legal system.
TUROK
Member
Some games are. The Witcher 2, for example.
NullPointer
Member
I want to nominate this for ConsumerGAF post of the year.
DidntKnowJack
Member
I read this post about ten times and have no idea how any of it relates to what I said earlier. I apologize, I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just don't understand what makes you think I support any of this or would try to tell someone to "deal with getting ripped off?" I'd be the guy standing next to him with my own torch and pitchfork.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Valve is a business.
Those are their true colors.
I mean, honestly. That they would act like a business should not automatically label them evil.
Gabe Newell's a smart dude. He's not an idiot. Valve is incredibly customer-friendly. So when they do something that every other company does, maybe that's not a sign that it's evil. Maybe it's just because that's what companies do to protect themselves.
And please don't give me that "but they should be protecting the consumer" shenanigans. They gave up the right to regulate Steam how they wanted ever since the first non-Valve game went up on Steam.
What a remarkably salient point.
It's a general ToS, we'll just sue Valve in your place if they fuck around with US account holders.
They'll be forced to back down or to make seperate ToS agreements per country.
I can't understand why they aren't able to just move your account to an offline forever state if you don't accept the terms. That way you won't be using steam (kind of) but you will still have access to download your games.
This is just a problem waiting to be resolved by the EU sadly.
This is just a problem waiting to be resolved by the EU sadly.
But this is nothing new. This passage wasn't added with the new user agreement it was there already. This is part of what DRM critics complain about for a long time. You don't own anything and you agree that everything you buy can be take from you and if you don't agree your only "right" is to cancel your account and lose everything.
But I'm glad about threads like this which make this problem a bit more known
NullPointer
Member
So just download all of your stuff. I don't need an active Amazon account to play my music, so if they change their terms to something I won't agree with, I'll just do my business somewhere else. That's how its supposed to work.
Its not a free exchange when coercion is involved.
markot itunes IS drm free now
GoofsterStud
Member
But this is nothing new. This passage wasn't added with the new user agreement it was there already. This is part of what DRM critics complain about for a long time. You don't own anything and you agree that everything you buy can be take from you and if you don't agree your only "right" is to cancel your account and lose everything.
But I'm glad about threads like this which make this problem a bit more known
So you admit you knew they would be more harsh to the consumer than Origins? I didn't see this coming, I must of been blindsided by the Valve fanboy inside of me. :-(
itunes IS drm
Speedymanic
Banned
The problem becomes that not many, if any other companies actively lock you out of your legally bought content if you refuse to accept their updated terms of service and then to state they won't even refund you? Disgusting.
This is incredibly underhanded and something that shows they believe they have a big enough foothold in the market to act like this with impunity.
It's classic monopolistic behavior. When you know the majority of people use your service, you can pretty much do whatever you want as you know the alternatives are lacking in almost every regard.
Not sure how or why anyone would attempt to defend this behavior. The sheer arrogance behind this move should be enough to show everyone that Steam isn't the consumer centric service that many people claim it is.
You said all music has drm. It doesn't.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Praise be to Gaben
No it isn't. It's backup. Itunes music is DRM-free which means you can do whatever you want with it after it's downloaded. I can download my itunes music and then delete it from my hard drive and still play my music for as long as I have it in my possession. What is the DRM?
The only time I would need to access my itunes account is to buy more DRM free music or to redownload it which is the part where it's backup.
You CANNOT play the majority of Steam games without being logged into Steam and even then you can occasionally be cut off from access due to errors where the servers are "busy." I enjoy Steam a lot but it's not even close the Itunes or Amazon music as far as freedom of use.
Saying you might lose it is ridiculous. If I buy a bottle of water and lose, I'll lose access but that doesn't mean bottles are DRM. I mean what is going on with you to even attempt a silly ass argument like that?
TUROK
Member
So because every other business does it, it's not "evil?"
Shady business practices are okay if everyone does them? Good to know.
itunes. can you sell it? If you get banned from itunes, can you redownload it if you lose it?
Speedymanic
Banned
What other business takes away your legally bought content if you refuse to accept their illegal and incredibly underhanded updated ToS?
I can't think of a single one, probably because it's illegal in most countries where they actually give a damn about consumer rights.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I know this is expected but don't you love the way Steam Support put it here.
In the UK/EU I believe it can be ignored as I don't think this can hold up with our consumer rights.
Just like the fact you can get a refund on any digital download in the UK 7 days after with no explanation or even after that if it's not as intended. (I've used that a few times.
FYI: TLDR Version of Steams New Agreement
Yeah, steam support is way over their head in this instance.
You have a right to disagree with new subscriber agreements without losing access to your games I think.
NullPointer
Member
If you 'lose' you music CD or hell, your toaster, can you go back to the store and get a new one for free?
GoofsterStud
Member
Even EA (Origins) agrees with you.
The bigger question is why aren't you making backups in the first place... I am sure your mp3 player, phone, ps3, etc will still have it.
Steam is the only one locking you of content you already installed or downloaded here. Steam is the one taking an additional anti-consumer measure that the other DD services have yet to cross.
I wouldn't say it like this. All I'm saying is, that this passage was in the user agreement already before Origins even existed. Their user agreement was always pretty consumer unfriendly, giving you almost no rights at all. The anti-class action lawsuit part is new, but not the don't agree = lose everything.
I'm just surprised apparently many didn't know but better late than never
Yes you need to log into your account to restore backups.
I already addressed this. That's why it's BACKUP for your DRM-free music. If I get banned from Itunes, I can play my music for the rest of my life simply by backing it up myself.
And can I sell it? Sure, no problem. I could copy it on to a disk and sell it to someone. It would be a illegal of course as the license only covers me but I could do that.
Here's a question, if something did happen and you had access to all your Steam games revoked, would you pirate them to get them back? Would you feel bad about it?
I'm more of a console gamer and I feel safe with my retail discs but even with my small Steam library I can't say I'd feel too terrible about taking back games that I rightfully paid for and should own.
I'm more of a console gamer and I feel safe with my retail discs but even with my small Steam library I can't say I'd feel too terrible about taking back games that I rightfully paid for and should own.
Laws are made and enforced when people actually care about something. We care about Steam and how we do business with them. If you don't care don't try to make others feel apathetic.
onken
Member
The problem is even physical media nowadays is basically no different to the DRM'd to the max download versions. You might be able to initially install it offline, but 9 out of 10 times you still need to go online to activate/play etc. Pretty much any modern PC game now can just be deactivated, physical media or not. This is actually why I prefer to collect console games, because I know as long as I have a working console and a copy of the game, I will be able to play it.
Many recent boxed games actually have Steamworks DRM.
This recent episode is why I don't exactly trust Steam- not because they've done anything too bad yet, but that they have the potential to be nastier than any other service- if Gabe decides to go evil, we're stuck, and I'm not convinced Gabe won't go evil.
Sentenza
Member
While I can easily agree with this part, that doesn't really mean that customers should accept crap like this just on good will and street cred.. They have any right to protest against the practice and the law supporting it.
"I'm fine with your right to fuck me every time you want because I know you are not the raping-type". Ehr? No, Gabe could even be the nicest guy in the world, but we all should be very wary of what kind of power we are going to put in his hands.
Given that, I still think that the whole overreaction in this thread is hilariously stupid.
- First, just accept the goddamn ToS and your account will be fine. Pretending that would be a problem is a self-imposed problem.
- Second... Yeah," accept or burst" may sound annoying, but that's the standard condition for every single ToS or EULA.
- Third. There's no actual news discussed here. They always had theoretically the ability to lock your access to these games. There's a reason if that doesn't happen constantly.
- Fourth. You can't sign away from your rights. Be assured that it doesn't matter whatever bullshit is written in these things and it doesn't even matter if you accepted. Be confident that in the very moment they make something illegal or abusive toward customers and enough people get angry, those *will* definitely will be able to sue them, even with a class action if necessary, even at cost to force someone to revert the previous sentence which allowed these terms, and no ToS in the world will prevent the backfire.
GoofsterStud
Member
If it were officially legal, without a doubt.
If it were legal I would buy physical copies while only installing the pirated versions. A box, manual, no DRM... Yes, please.