NightShift
Member
I feel so sorry for Hello Games. They're just a small, innocent indie studio dealing with one of the most anticipated games of the year, they don't need this shit.
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Dutch Company Claims it Owns No Man's Sky World Generation Formula [they don't]
- Thread starter DeepEnigma
- Start date
You do realize how ridiculous the idea of such a distinction is?
That doesn't make much sense, since a program is an algorithm and an algorithm is a program.
That the game uses their "superformula" has been reported for a while, its not a secret.
When Murray wasnt being pulled away from his computer, he worked on the terrain. He told me that he was always searching for ideas. Last year, he saw the film Interstellar, which features scenes of a lifeless snowy planet that had some very perfect mathlike terrain. The next day, he developed formulas that would create similar crevasses. More recently, he had noticed geological formations that an artist had hand-designed for another video game, and realized that the algorithms of No Mans Sky were not equipped to make them. The problem nagged at him, until he found an equation, published in 2003 by a Belgian plant geneticist named Johan Gielis.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/18/world-without-end-raffi-khatchadourian
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
these guys cant catch a break, i hope everything is solved cleanly and quickly
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Yep, blame the US Court system for making that distinction.
That's why my post says "as far as i am concerner" and not "legally speaking".That's not how stuff works in relation to what class of business they are.
Also, I'd love to know where you're getting the information that Sony would have any say in a third party's compliance law? Seriously, I'd love to know where you're getting that information.
I think that trying to portray this as a company that is tryng to prey on a smaller company is very missleading, since the smaller company is backed by a huge corporation.
As far as the case itself, I can't pick a side.
But i see a lot of people here rushing to support NMS.
Maybe they don't understand that a single formula can be somebody's life's work. And that NMS might be using it for profit while actively ignoring the creator.
The legal side of this doesn't intrest me that much, and personally I don't think it will hold up in court.
And there is also the possibility NMS is using a different formula.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
"We're making a game very similar to No Man's Sky. It's out next year. Please buy it."
legacyzero
Banned
Can you mother fuckers please leave Hello Games alone? Its bad enough they had to right copyright trolls over a fucking 3 letter word. Now they have to answer to this dumb shit?
If they just want money, they'd wait till the game actually comes out and makes money. I don't remember any patent troll jumps out before a big hit even happens. Right now I will wait and see. If the formula is patented, they are only right to protect their property. Also I find the title quite improporaite.
Also, the "you can't patent math" argument is simply not true. You certainly can patent an algorithm. It's not a natural thing that "just sits around waiting to be found", it is created and implemented by human hands, like all other intellectual properties.
Also, the "you can't patent math" argument is simply not true. You certainly can patent an algorithm. It's not a natural thing that "just sits around waiting to be found", it is created and implemented by human hands, like all other intellectual properties.
dragonbane
Member
Well looks like Sean Murray openly stated that they are using the Superformula created by Johan Gielis who at least partially founded Genicap. And the focus of that company is to work on technological implementations of that formula. So I guess it all depends on how valid this patent is and if patenting the technological implementation of a formula makes it magically different than patenting the formula itself. At least from their current position inquiring about what Hello Games precisely did doesn't seem too far out of line.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
I asked before, would Dutch copyright law even be valid in other countries?
1. Its not copyright
2. You don't have to be a US citizen to register a patent in the US
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is not what he asked.
He asked if they have a patent in their own country, would it apply anywhere else in the world? And if so, how does that country enforce it upon another country's citizen/group?
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Yeah, this is what I meant.
For example, their patent for the use of the Superformula in a program shouldn't be valid in the United States.
AFAIK No. Had a few lectures on the subject. You need to patent your device in any country that you want to sell it in, if you want to prevent it from being copid.
I asume the dutch company did register it in the US and a few other countries as well.
The country where it was registered will enforce it within it's own territory. (Except china that doesnt care I guess)
Their dutch patent won't be valid in the US. But their US patent will be valid in the US.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Where'd you get that idea? That's no where near being true. A program = implementation of an algorithm. That can vastly differ. It's like saying a recipe is a dish and a dish is a recipe, ignoring the ingredients, skill of the chef, cooking environment/tools, etc
Milly Osworth
Member
Jeroen Sparrow? Did you translate a last name? 🐵
LordRaptor
Member
Except most countries patent law specifically excludes mathematical equations from being patentable.
But then computer software started making money.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is what I figured. And I was just about to mention China, but you beat me to the punch. Thanks for confirming my assumptions on this.
Guilty for having their huge legal teams being inept in these situations?
PdotMichael
Banned
Too bad, Apple owns the plus.
I assume they mean "innocent" in the sense of "naive" rather than "not guilty"
UnemployedVillain
Member
It's bullshit anyway. So many titles and engines, especially those related to AI, are built on previously established algorithms and formulas. Hell, software development as a field has only progressed by building on previously realized algorithms
Darth Smurf X
Member
Remembrance
Member
Found a US patent that appears to be related to this company: https://www.google.com/patents/US7620527
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
This is getting interesting.
Handy Fake
Member
The bottom is interesting:
Jun 28, 2013 REMI Maintenance fee reminder mailed
Nov 17, 2013 FPAY Fee payment
Year of fee payment: 4
Nov 17, 2013 SULP Surcharge for late payment
Mar 15, 2015 AS Assignment
Owner name: GENICAP BEHEER B.V., NETHERLANDS
Free format text: ASSIGNMENT OF ASSIGNORS INTEREST;ASSIGNOR:GIELIS, JOHAN LEO ALFONS, MR.;REEL/FRAME:035168/0026
Effective date: 20141020
Ok, so you can patent one particular implementation of an algorithm? What, then, constitutes an implementation? Is it the specific source code in one specific high-level language? Is it the binary sequence for one particular processor architecture? If I change the name of a variable or a function, is it still in violation of the patent? What if I change the operand order of some commutative operations?
If all of that is still in violation, then what you are actually patenting -- regardless of what you call it -- is an algorithm, not an implementation. If it isn't, then the whole system is completely useless. That's why for the purpose of this discussion an algorithm and a program are functionally equivalent.
It reads to me like this Dutch company is trying to get Hello Games to consent to letting them sniff around their source code under the guise of legal inquiry when they are most likely trying to steal Hello Games's intellectual property. The Genicap spokesman basically admitted as much in that interview, except he gave it the quaint term of "trading knowledge" when they are trying to build their own game. What naked opportunism.
Handy Fake
Member
Dear me, if only you'd read my first post properly.
I'm would have been happy to have a conversation with you but when every single one of your replies is based on something that I've never said, which I keep pointing out to you, it's literally of no value to me to reply to you after this post having tried to help you.
I honestly don't think that I can make it any simpler for you than I'm making it to in this post. If you do want to keep posting what you are posting, I have no issues with that but there is no point in quoting me when you do so as that infers that you replying to me my posts when when from the content of your posts, you clearly aren't.
I don't really have anything else to say.
fabricated backlash
Member
So tit for tat then.
Holy shit if that is true trying to troll them and steal there code in the process pathetic.
Then the Dutch company turns around and says that the code is math and can't be copywritten.
Darth Smurf X
Member
And I was going to preorder this game today. Now what do I do with this PSN card?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Pre-order the game. It is still coming out. They have no proof at this point and time, nor can stop it so soon.
arts&crafts
Member
I just finished watching Silicon Valley and this feels like a situation that would be in the show.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
0%
They would have to get a injunction and provide some compelling evidence in all region's judicial I believe.
They won't even be heard in time.
That's exactly what happened in the show. Except the Pied Piper guys just foolishly walked in and gave a presentation on their algorithm that was then copied. At least Hello Games isn't falling for the same trick being facilitated through dubious legal tactics.
What's dubious about seeking to enforce a patent you own on a thing you invented?
With a quick look, it appears that the superformula is already used in applications out there including GNU ones?
Wouldn't Genicap have to explain why they did not go after every single application (free or not) of the superformula out there before getting on Hello Games' case ?(hence why companies often defend their IP even in the case of fan art/ nonprofit use).
Wouldn't Genicap have to explain why they did not go after every single application (free or not) of the superformula out there before getting on Hello Games' case ?(hence why companies often defend their IP even in the case of fan art/ nonprofit use).