-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Fighting Game Noob Thread: From Scrub to Master
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Tekken seems easier to get into frame wise than SF for some reason? In Tekken,the lowest start up is a jab which is 10 frames. In SF, a 10 frame move is like a heavy kick or something? EVERYONE's standing jab is 10f in Tekken. And so few moves are positive on block that it's REALLY easy to pare them down to see what's worth using and what properties they have. Out of the basic moves (non special) for Katarina I think I counted only four moves that are positive on block. They are 1, f+1, f.F+1, and SS+1.
Comparing Katarina to Gigas who is big and slow puts things into perspective.
Gigas:
1 - 10f startup, +1 block, +8 on hit
2 - 10f startup, -5 block, +8 on hit
3 - 14f startup, -9 block, knockdown property, +2 on hit
4 - 16f startup, -9 block, knockdown property, +2 on hit
Katarina:
1 - 10f startup, +2 block, +8 on hit
2 - 12f startup, -3 block, +8 on hit
3 - 16f startup, -5 block, +6 on hit
4 - 11f startup, -3f block (?), + 8 on hit, launcher property
For some reason, in a way I can't explain, it's easier for me to go through Tekken frame data and tell what's worth using and for what purpose compared to SF. Fucking weird, man.
Comparing Katarina to Gigas who is big and slow puts things into perspective.
Gigas:
1 - 10f startup, +1 block, +8 on hit
2 - 10f startup, -5 block, +8 on hit
3 - 14f startup, -9 block, knockdown property, +2 on hit
4 - 16f startup, -9 block, knockdown property, +2 on hit
Katarina:
1 - 10f startup, +2 block, +8 on hit
2 - 12f startup, -3 block, +8 on hit
3 - 16f startup, -5 block, +6 on hit
4 - 11f startup, -3f block (?), + 8 on hit, launcher property
For some reason, in a way I can't explain, it's easier for me to go through Tekken frame data and tell what's worth using and for what purpose compared to SF. Fucking weird, man.
SquirrelSoup
Member
There's also a lot of generic moves that many characters share, with some having variants or exceptions.
Your fastest move is often your 1 at 10 frames, it's usually +1 on block and ~+8 on hit.
Most characters have a 'magic' 4 which is a 11-12f high and is a counterhit launcher. (rewards do vary)
Your fastest mid is often your d/f+1 at around 13f.
Your fastest mid from crouching is often ws4 at ~11f.
Your fastest launcher is often a 15f d/f+2 or u/f+4 (or both).
Lows are weaker, slower and/or less rewarding than mids.
Overall, once you know the basics it's actually pretty easy to know it for most characters or to pick up a new one.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
So I'm not crazy then. Looking forward to it!
Seems the hardest thing to get used to is movement, which I can't exactly practice now without a Tekken game (I have Tekken Tag 2 for ps3 and I think someone stole it because it's been missing for years). Picking what you want to punish with seems far simpler in Tekken as well, and combos seem easier to do.
Seems the hardest thing to get used to is movement, which I can't exactly practice now without a Tekken game (I have Tekken Tag 2 for ps3 and I think someone stole it because it's been missing for years). Picking what you want to punish with seems far simpler in Tekken as well, and combos seem easier to do.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Not at all. In fact, good job noticing it!
Katarina really doesn't have many tools that are large advantage on block. In Tekken, a +1 or +2 doesn't matter as much as in SF, because people can still sidestep or backdash whatever you do at such minor disadvantage.
Her main advantage on block tool is 1,1,2 as that is advantage enough to where people need to respect your mixup. It's duckable but she has 1,1,1 which is not, to mix it up with. (Or there's like 1,1 hopkick if you have the read and feel like being a jerk to someone.)
Her Rage Drive is advantage on block too. Most of them are.
But aside from that you need to score a hit to put folks at enough disadvantage to lock them down.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yeah I noticed her stuff is still fast enough. Like her 2 and 3 are still negative 3-5 on block, which is pretty good, but the dressing is that it's +8 and +6 on hit, which allows for some good links for pressure.
If I'm reading her frame data right, of course. I couldn't tell you what kind of character a character was in SF unless they were really slow, or really fast. But the way I'm reading the data for Tekken characters idiosyncrasies are popping out to me as to how they should be played because they all have a baseline. Katarina is obviously a mix up character according to her data.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Soooo, what are these moves?
https://youtu.be/OXPt4UMJZsY
00:23 - I'm guessing a f+1? It's the most consistent poke that Knee and others use across all match ups. If that's f+1 like I think it is, that move is a keeper. It has 13 damage (which is really good), it's a mid, with a 13f startup, and -1 block, and +5 on hit. That's a total keeper of a move and seems like a good poke. But I'm not sure if that's the move that's being used at 00:23. Given all available data, I am concluding that it is indeed f+1.
00:24 - d+3?
00:25 - 444? 444's stats are 17, 20, and 10 dmg respectively with a startup of a mere 11 and a shocking -5 on block. Another keeper. It also has +1 on hit.
The most consistent Katarina poke is the one at 00:23. The one at 00:24 also seems fairly good.
https://youtu.be/OXPt4UMJZsY
00:23 - I'm guessing a f+1? It's the most consistent poke that Knee and others use across all match ups. If that's f+1 like I think it is, that move is a keeper. It has 13 damage (which is really good), it's a mid, with a 13f startup, and -1 block, and +5 on hit. That's a total keeper of a move and seems like a good poke. But I'm not sure if that's the move that's being used at 00:23. Given all available data, I am concluding that it is indeed f+1.
00:24 - d+3?
00:25 - 444? 444's stats are 17, 20, and 10 dmg respectively with a startup of a mere 11 and a shocking -5 on block. Another keeper. It also has +1 on hit.
The most consistent Katarina poke is the one at 00:23. The one at 00:24 also seems fairly good.
SquirrelSoup
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ULnuW253cw < This might be useful for you, Cindi. Doesn't have the new FR moves but still.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yeah, I meant d+3. Oops.
If that's a df+1 it's 13 startup, with 13 damage, -1 block, and +5 block. So that's good.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Thanks!
The moves are b+1 (or df+1, not sure), d+3, and 444.
I noticed her b+3. Seems like a good poke. Has good range, does 15 dmg, 12 startup, -8 on block though, but it has +2 on hit and +7 on the CH.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yeah. He and others use that punch move no matter what version though. The punch seems to be the most go to poke for many.
You can see FR Katarina play here.
https://youtu.be/uriLV0jdJqY
You can see FR Katarina play here.
https://youtu.be/uriLV0jdJqY
MikeBreezy92
Member
All this frame data talk :'( am cry
Cindi Mayweather
Member
MikeBreezy92
Member
embrace it breh
Im fine with it regularly, but in the noob thread?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It says Scrub to Master. I mean, I'm a Tekken noob competitively (not in general of course though) so it counts as noob talk, I would think.
One thing to notice about frame data as well:
At -10 a move is generally considered punishable. The pushback might be too high for jabs to reach though.
At -15 a move is generally considered "launch punishable" because most of the d/f+2s across the cast is 15 frames fast. This does not apply to WS punishers. There's characters like Bryan and Mishimas who have faster launchers than that and characters like Steve who can't launch you until you're at ~-17.
Mid launchers are usually punishable with few exceptions. Low launchers are usually launch punishable or at least unsafe with few exceptions (King says hi). Sweeps stagger on block and are heavily punishable.
There's moves with crushing properties. Most of them crush highs or lows at pretty early frames. There's no mid crushing move. So you have to be careful at treating the game like an equation by just filling in numbers.
Hope that helps. Cool to see you wanting to get seriously into Tekken, Cindi.
At -10 a move is generally considered punishable. The pushback might be too high for jabs to reach though.
At -15 a move is generally considered "launch punishable" because most of the d/f+2s across the cast is 15 frames fast. This does not apply to WS punishers. There's characters like Bryan and Mishimas who have faster launchers than that and characters like Steve who can't launch you until you're at ~-17.
Mid launchers are usually punishable with few exceptions. Low launchers are usually launch punishable or at least unsafe with few exceptions (King says hi). Sweeps stagger on block and are heavily punishable.
There's moves with crushing properties. Most of them crush highs or lows at pretty early frames. There's no mid crushing move. So you have to be careful at treating the game like an equation by just filling in numbers.
Hope that helps. Cool to see you wanting to get seriously into Tekken, Cindi.
lucebuce12
Member
This is good to know, I need to have stuff like this handy for when I start to learn the game.
Going across the three 3D fighters(Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DoA which has 5 Frame throws though), the fastest move seems to be always the jab at 10 frames startup.
Just in case, there are also descriptions with videos for the new system mechanics on the official Tekken 7 site.
Power Crush seems like an universal high/mid crush by armoring through the attack. So in a way, Tekken 7 introduces an universal mid crush as a system mechanic(which is a first outside of Tekken Revolution?).
SquirrelSoup
Member
I don't like how people are 'scared' of frame data so I wrote some simple stuff about it for (very) new players:
http://cephiria.blogspot.nl/2017/05/tekken-7-frame-data-for-new-players.html
Might do a followup on punishment if folks think that would be useful.
http://cephiria.blogspot.nl/2017/05/tekken-7-frame-data-for-new-players.html
Might do a followup on punishment if folks think that would be useful.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Nope. Some characters fastest moves are cr. Lk, c.lp, st.lp, & st.lk. There is zero consistancy. All those moves also have completely different properties.
There's exceptions to that like Xiaoyu's b+1 which is 8 frames fast but has no reach and does nearly no damage. Hwoarang's LFS f+3 and RFS f+4 is also 8 frames but is from his flamingo stances.
I wouldn't consider power crush moves crush moves because you still take damage doing them. It is close to it though.
I like you write-ups. Thanks for that.
Nice write up. I chalk frame data up as a "nice to know" thing.
The consistency is that they are all light attacks. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
There are also some odd ducks of special moves, like light DPs and Kens light Tatsu.
The exceptions seem negligible and unique. Hwoarang's seems to be very situational.
I do agree. But it does cover multiple options like a crush, not usable on low life unlike a real crush though.
Well it's called a power crush, so I guess they intended it be treated like a crush. I wonder how popular power crush will be, when beginners get their hands on the game. Gives me the vibes of it being the DP of Tekken to me, although a ghetto one.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yo. People said Tekken frames are hard to understand. Nah. Tekken frames are easy as fuck to understand. By placing a baseline, you can figure out a characters game plan with ease. Holy shit. It's like I'm seeing action with numbers. Not to discount other aspects of Tekken, but I thought I needed a PHD, brehs?
The basic stuff should be easy. The harder part is recognizing moves of the cast and knowing what you can punish with what.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Sure. But that goes for any fg.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Please write that follow up. This is a great resource.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Uh, okay. I'll do my best.
I think overall Tekken isn't particularly easier or harder than other fighting games.
Some bits are pretty hard. There's a large cast and they all have A LOT of moves, so there's a lot of options/things that can happen at certain points in a set. That's kind of a large mental burden on players, which you -have to- reduce by focusing on the most common/likely/dangerous things. Also good movement takes execution, which is a mechanic not all games have.
Some bits are pretty easy. Move and combo execution is (generally) kinda easy. No 360s, no qcb-hcf motions, no 1f links (or that many links at all really). On top of that since stuff is generally slower it is moved a bit more into the reaction space than the anticipation space like in most 2D fighters. Like whiff punishment.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yup. Not to dismiss Tekken at all and I hope it doesn't took like I am, but I'm expecting a different set of difficulties learning Tekken compared to learning SF. Some aspects that are harder in SF and easier in Tekken in vice versa. Ultimately, like NWS said to me privately, SF is about reads/yomi while Tekken is about reactions. It's really interesting.
LordKasual
Banned
noooooooooooooo
I can't think of any game with links harder than SF4. Third Strike was a cakewalk in comparison
Tekken seems like an easier game to play to me than most 2D games. The thing about tekken though is that it's execution barrier is relatively low, but the amount of options available to you at any given moment is vastly higher.
Learning a character is relatively easy, but learning when to use the tons of moves you have, when to sidestep, which one of the like 8 wakeup options you have available to you....that's something else entirely
I think the most difficult thing about Tekken to me has been proper positioning and BREAKING THROWS, which seems to have been made super easy on T7. But reacting to which arm the opponent uses to throw you in order to input the correct throw tech is probably the most technically intensive part of Tekken.
....Unless you play a Mishima, in which case you're gonna need to perfect wavedash and just-framing for those Electrics.
And for anyone intimidated by Frame Data...there's really nothing intimidating about it. Once you learn what you're looking for, most of the data becomes irrelevant to you.
The most important values are Startup, Block Advantage, Actives, and which frame move properties start on. (upper invincible, throw invincible, ect). For optimizing your strategy, you'll look to things like Damage or Stun values, but most games will tell you this information in practice mode anyway
Cindi Mayweather
Member
That's the thing. Half the struggle in 2d games is learning a character - their game plan, their style. Learning even that can take weeks if not months. And here I am figuring out how a Tekken character is supposed to be played, in terms of game plan, in 5 secs by looking at the frame data. It's a surprisingly good feeling.
Combos still have to watch out for character orientation, like hitting sideways. I don't remember any links in Tekken, but juggles aren't necessarily easy either. I often see drops in tournament play. There are also situational combos like hitting opponent off the air, counter hit, low parry, ground break and walls.
Also correct me if I'm wrong. In Tekken you usually block high and react to low, since lows are slower, often don't lead to much damage and those which do are extra slow in comparison.
LordKasual
Banned
Well, it's that simple, and it isn't that simple, which is where I believe the "reaction" part comes into play, but not so much in the same way that it does in 2D games. But it is a much better feeling learning Tekken than it is learning 2D games.
It feels like Tekken is the type of game where you can throw out alot of safe buttons because of how defense works. Unlike 2D games where your blockstrings are either pretty simplistic or utterly sufficating, you can use a plethora of different moves for blockstrings in Tekken and come out with more or less the same result. But since you have so many different moves, you can condition people who are looking for certain strings and open them up with some other link or attack in your moveset.
I started T6 playing Lili and this is pretty much how I am forced to play the character. She's pretty slow and lacks good, spammable mids, and her lows are extremely dangerous, so everyone block>punishes them on reaction. If you play Lili to her frame data, you'll never hit anyone because they know all of her most dangerous shit, and it's easy to block because it's mostly mid/high, and her launching lows are telegraphed. It's almost as though you have to bait the opponent's knowledge of her vulnerability in order to use the majority of her attacks. But I could just be playing a shit Lili, idk.
Ultimately, I believe that learning Tekken is more about mastering the game's mechanics and choosing your options well than it is about mastering combos, meaties, timing, reset gimmicks, ect like in Street Fighter.
In my experience, teaching smash players about real fighting games is a rocky road. Especially smash players who are serious in the newer ones (smash 4) because it has removed so many mechanics from the series
Me and a few friends were trying to teach a very good smash player (one of the best in our state) the concept of frame advantage. It was hilarious. (Smash 4 essentially has no such concept anymore)
subt-L made a pretty cool graph showing how moves generally work in Tekken
https://twitter.com/NORCALsubtL/status/866114211759366144
Highs are typically better on block, mids more rewarding and lows are almost always unsafe e.t.c.
https://twitter.com/NORCALsubtL/status/866114211759366144
Highs are typically better on block, mids more rewarding and lows are almost always unsafe e.t.c.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Agreed. Always converting optimally shows true mastery. But getting -a- combo is pretty easy in Tekken comparatively speaking. Even getting a decent one is. It depends on the character, but if you're experienced in fighting games you can get a BnB semi-consistent in half an hour or so. Can't say that for every game. (Well at least i can't, my execution is trash. Maybe you're amazing~ )
As to links there are a few, mostly on counterhit. For example.. Leo's CH b+1+4 gives +16, so you can link a b+2,1+2 in T7.
Btw, it looks like many characters have a slightly easier time with off axis/backturned combos in T7. It's mostly because their screw attacks have better hitboxes than their bounds did before. Or at least that's my impression.
I've mentioned this multiple times in other threads but I think it's worth throwing out here as well. Fergus, an Irish player, spent God knows how many hours making this brief primer about the Tekken 7 cast and it'd be a massive waste if it goes unnoticed. I think it's a fantastic resource to introduce anyone unfamiliar with each character's gameplan:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yqgxbES6su4clpQou2hzlZN40rpPBtwmMRKWfexbj3g/edit
Holy shit that's a damn good image.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yqgxbES6su4clpQou2hzlZN40rpPBtwmMRKWfexbj3g/edit
Holy shit that's a damn good image.
MikeBreezy92
Member
All this info...its too much...
It warms my cold little Tekken heart lol
It warms my cold little Tekken heart lol
Cindi Mayweather
Member
MrCookiepants
Member
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Read this Reddit thread if you're new and want to get into Tekken for 7 as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/699xxr/general_information_faq/
There's also a thread specifically for learning guides/tools.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/5r2sfj/useful_links_for_anyone_who_wants_to_get_into/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/699xxr/general_information_faq/
There's also a thread specifically for learning guides/tools.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/5r2sfj/useful_links_for_anyone_who_wants_to_get_into/
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
If I play Sarah in VF what would be a good character for me in Tekken?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Do we have anyone who plays both VF *and* Tekken?
Another guide via Reddit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clilt3cbz...and building fundamentals in Tekken.docx?dl=0
Another guide via Reddit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clilt3cbz...and building fundamentals in Tekken.docx?dl=0
Someone asked this in the FGH thread in community.
In T6/Tag 2 I would have said Baek but since there's almost 0 percent chance he's returning it'll have to be Hwoarang. He is the Go-To character for stance based rushdown + mixups. But unfortunately it takes a really long while to familiarize yourself with his moveset knowing what options you have in what stance.
In the scenario Hwoarang's moveset becomes too overwhelming:
-If you get the more satisfaction out of Sarah's Edge Kick executions I recommend Lee Chaolan since you can get something similar with Lee's acid rain.
-If you get the more satisfaction out of Sarah's Shadow Step & Shuffle stances give Josie a try.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What about Pai Chan?
I never played Pai, so I can't say for sure unlike Sarah who I dabbled with along with Jean/Aoi. Aesthetically Xiaoyu's Hypnotist and Art of Phoenix stances look incredibly similar to some of Pai's stances so I assume they share the same martial art.
ManBig would be a better resource for VFxTekken related questions.
ManBig would be a better resource for VFxTekken related questions.