There are ways around it, it's a design problem. I haven't been keeping up with how other modern card games tackle it, it's just a surprise to see Direwolf leave it up to MTG style variance, which is very offputting for your typical HS player. The first time HS player #27364 concedes a game because they drew 7 sigils in a row is when they uninstall Eternal forever and stick with HS. If Direwolf is chasing after the MTG audience, fine, but I can't help but feel they're hamstringing themselves.
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Eternal CCG is in open beta and on Steam
- Thread starter Shai-Tan
- Start date
There are ways around it, it's a design problem. I haven't been keeping up with how other modern card games tackle it, it's just a surprise to see Direwolf leave it up to MTG style variance, which is very offputting for your typical HS player. The first time HS player #27364 concedes a game because they drew 7 sigils in a row is when they uninstall Eternal forever and stick with HS. If Direwolf is chasing after the MTG audience, fine, but I can't help but feel they're hamstringing themselves.
I mean I know I'm not an AAA player but I do chalk those two draft flame-outs to just bad luck. I got rocked by decks that were so tuned they looked like they came out of constructed 3x in a row and was then done.
I'm not in a hurry to craft a bunch of Legendaries so I'm very tempted to just start hoarding my Gold, and then go on a Draft spree when the game hits open beta on mobile or there's some other event that leads to an influx of new players. Seems like that might tips the odds a little
With respect, you're saying there are "ways" to deal with it, without listing any ways.
It's true that mana screw sucks, of course. But Eternal has alllll kinds of mana fixing in the base set, all at Common. Two types of duel power cards, lots of low-cost power-fetching Common creatures, etc.
I've seen lots of armchair designers on forums suggesting fixes to Eternal's resource system and all their suggestions lead to significantly decreased deck-building flexibility, ala Hearthstone.
Additionally, everyone recognizes the deck-building benefit when it comes to mixing and matching resource types, but another underrated aspect of Eternal's system is that you actually get to decide the weight resources have in your deck. An aggro deck can cut back while a control deck can stock up. I'm probably going to tweak my Warcry deck soon to strip out a couple Power and add in a few more 1-2 cost units.
The clickable building on the sides of the board, it's just cosmetic. If you want a different one later it'll cost gold though.
Having Scry as a keyword would've been a good start. Scry was one of the best new evergreen keywords in recent MTG history: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Scry
If I were tasked with building a "use anywhere" scry into a ccg, I'd do something like:
"Exile two cards. Scry 3 and draw a card. You may use this only once per game and only after turn 3."
There are Scrying cards in Eternal - it just isn't keyworded.
I've seen people suggest a fix like what you described - automated scrying/card draw that kicks in at turn 3/6/9 or whenever. The issue there is that for the ~70%+ matches that you don't need any mana fixing, you'll be using it to draw into a bomb card, or timely removal.
It'd be used to do something other than mana fix most of the time, and would change tempo. People would have to play around it - they wouldn't play a bomb the turn before, for fear someone could just scry for removal, etc.
The one solution I've seen suggested to alleviate mana screw that I fully agree with is just to make your first draw work the same as your mulligan. On Mulligan you're guaranteed to draw at least 2 power. I think they should just make both draws work that way. That would lead to far fewer instances of awful opening hands.
No way. Would make aggro/burn disgustingly consistent. 2 mana is like their magic breakpoint, might be 3 in Eternal, I'm not that familiar with it yet.
I'm fine with people using it to dig for bombs. The problem are games that are over before they were played. If people reach the point where they give up two cards to scry, then we can assume a game took place.
I'm fine with people using it to dig for bombs. The problem are games that are over before they were played. If people reach the point where they give up two cards to scry, then we can assume a game took place.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Speaking of land screw/flood... it has been getting on my nerves lately. I played MTG back in the day. Never hugely bothered me. But after playing a lot of games that just don't have that issue, actually starting to get on my nerves more than I thought it would. At first it was fresh again. As time went on, between mulligan and this... just sucks to lose a game despite mulliganing a terrible starting hand and getting no third or fourth sigil until turn 6-7. And you're of course dead by then.
It doesn't happen often, but the time it does is terrible. And sometimes it's not as bad as that, but it can still be really bad.
Another thing, besides land and mulligan, is that they took no effort to address advantage discrepancies between going first and second. I can't imagine it's really fair as it stands. I guess going second gets you a draw on your first turn? In elder scrolls legends they put some serious effort there.
It doesn't happen often, but the time it does is terrible. And sometimes it's not as bad as that, but it can still be really bad.
Another thing, besides land and mulligan, is that they took no effort to address advantage discrepancies between going first and second. I can't imagine it's really fair as it stands. I guess going second gets you a draw on your first turn? In elder scrolls legends they put some serious effort there.
not looking forward to the whole flooding / mana starvation. It's like this game taking me back into a time I never wanted to visit in a way lol
surely other CCGs solved the problem and still supported multicolor decks? I bet there must've been over a 1000 MtG clones.
Solforge just makes it so you can only pick from 2 colors and so does Faeria
edit- not saying thats the answer but I'm sure someone thought of something
surely other CCGs solved the problem and still supported multicolor decks? I bet there must've been over a 1000 MtG clones.
Solforge just makes it so you can only pick from 2 colors and so does Faeria
edit- not saying thats the answer but I'm sure someone thought of something
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think the answer could be simply stealing hearthstone's mulligan system. Mulligan card by card instead of the whole hand.
I like the influence system and the sigils. I think it's the mulligan system that leads to issues. They do make it so you draw 2 sigils if you mulligan, but it's maybe just not enough. So I think at least personally, I would like to see a different mulligan.
I'm kind of okay with a lot more consistent openings that would result. Might require some re-balancing efforts though.
I like the influence system and the sigils. I think it's the mulligan system that leads to issues. They do make it so you draw 2 sigils if you mulligan, but it's maybe just not enough. So I think at least personally, I would like to see a different mulligan.
I'm kind of okay with a lot more consistent openings that would result. Might require some re-balancing efforts though.
oh ya I hate the mulligan system, mana flood/starve, and 75 card variance. just all so yucky. Rest of game is nice though
[edit] Game still in early release I hope they listen to all us spoiled HS scrubs and make mulligan easier at least but I know ppl been begging since Closed beta
[edit] Game still in early release I hope they listen to all us spoiled HS scrubs and make mulligan easier at least but I know ppl been begging since Closed beta
Actually yeah - Eternal is doooope but the 75-card decks are another decision that leaves me scratching my head a little. I had drawn into two of my four key cards tonight and needed another in the mid-game, so I moused over my deck to see how many cards were remaining, to calculate the odds I'd draw one, and saw I still had 62 cards left in my deck :/
Bronze 3 Rakdos player AMA.
Jesus fuck Permafrost is like Swords to Plowshares.
Ran into Haunting Scream/Gorgon Fanatic in draft.
Seems legit.
6-3
I keep:
1) Thinking silence affects attack/defense, thanks Hearthstone
2) Thinking bouncing resets a card, thanks MTG
Jesus fuck Permafrost is like Swords to Plowshares.
Ran into Haunting Scream/Gorgon Fanatic in draft.
Seems legit.
6-3
I keep:
1) Thinking silence affects attack/defense, thanks Hearthstone
2) Thinking bouncing resets a card, thanks MTG
I love this game. I'm having more fun than I ever did with hearthstone, also I'm pretty bad but today I got a 7-1 draft with an Elysian deck with a little justice splashed in (mostly for the 1-4 flying lifesteal endurance unit) so that felt pretty good. Immediately followed by a 1-3 draft...
Karsticles
Member
Infinity Wars has the best multi-color solution. Your deck has 3 "commander" units. Whatever faction you choose for the commander is your deck color, so you can have monocolor, bicolor, or tricolor. All cards have a color requirement. The most powerful faction cards have a 3x monocolor requirement, which allows the design team to limit how you can combine the faction cards.
Such a good game.
I agree - those are the 3 things that need to change for this to go from a good MtG clone to a good game.
Edit: Of course, every card game should utilize Duelyst's Replace mechanic and Infinity Wars' Trading Post mechanic.
Played through the first character's levels last night. Had a pretty good time. I think I enjoy putting land down (which includes all the fuckery that may occur like getting all sigils after inital draw) instead of the automatic mana buildup of Hearthstone.
Hoping this comes to Android mobile at some point.
Hoping this comes to Android mobile at some point.
A Serious Man
Member
Resource flood/screw is part of the variance and I don't mind it, but I've been conditioned by years of MtG. It actually occurs less in this game than in MtG due to how influence works.
The 75 card limit I don't get. I know building a 75 card deck is something a lot of MtG players do but that's just to tune sideboards. I will say that I can get my decks to consistently do what I want them to do and those extra 15 slots don't cause total chaos but I would still like to see the math on this.
The mulligan system hasn't annoyed me yet. I almost always end up with at least a semi-functional hand, that's a product of solid deck building though. I don't care for the "pick a few cards to replace" method either so it's not a sticking point for me.
The 75 card limit I don't get. I know building a 75 card deck is something a lot of MtG players do but that's just to tune sideboards. I will say that I can get my decks to consistently do what I want them to do and those extra 15 slots don't cause total chaos but I would still like to see the math on this.
The mulligan system hasn't annoyed me yet. I almost always end up with at least a semi-functional hand, that's a product of solid deck building though. I don't care for the "pick a few cards to replace" method either so it's not a sticking point for me.
I figure the 75 minimum is to reduce consistency without adding explicit randomness. A 60 card deck with a limit of 4 cards will always be more consistent than a 75 card deck with aa 4 card limit barring an excessive amount of redundancy. At the same time, all the sigil tutors and seats and strangers reduce mana/color screw. So you won't curve out your optimal play as often, but you won't get dicked straight up either.
Furthermore it's more resource intensive to net deck ~48 cards than it is MTG's 36 or Hearthstone's 30, meaning the lower levels will have more variety in cards played while collections still have holes.
Furthermore it's more resource intensive to net deck ~48 cards than it is MTG's 36 or Hearthstone's 30, meaning the lower levels will have more variety in cards played while collections still have holes.
Interesting that does sound like a unique design
I liked Duelyst's replacement mechanic it does feel good
Finally put the time in to get to Diamond in ranked to go with my Diamond in draft.
Based on the matches I played today Gold league in ranked is 60% Stonescar, 30% Rakano, 10% other decks right now.
Thankfully I'm playing Feln Control which kind of owns Stonescar unless it gets a catastrophic draw.
Based on the matches I played today Gold league in ranked is 60% Stonescar, 30% Rakano, 10% other decks right now.
Thankfully I'm playing Feln Control which kind of owns Stonescar unless it gets a catastrophic draw.
I'm playing Feln Control. What is it weak to? Only thing I've found so far is mana screw
Armory can be touchy if you can't get a creature in play and they have free reign to beat on you with a weapon for a couple of turns. Obelisk decks can be tough if they get one out and you don't draw your board wipe combo. Sometimes beefy Elysian and Combrei decks can draw more big dudes than you draw removal.
None of them are that tough though. Feln Control is pretty great.
part of me wishes I never tried this game cause everytime I helplessly watch my minion get silenced/removed/polymorph'ed in Hearthstone I cant help but think-
"OMG if this was Eternal and if I had Protect or something I could save you!!!"
After new HS expansion wears off I'm sure I'll be back to play a little
"OMG if this was Eternal and if I had Protect or something I could save you!!!"
After new HS expansion wears off I'm sure I'll be back to play a little
keep getting more and more addicted to this game
i've barely even played the new Hearthstone expansion and I was so excited about that a month ago
2 out of my past 3 drafts now I was late in the draft in Rakano with a plan to splash a few Primal cards then I get a pack 3 or 4 Siraf and splash her instead
so bizarre for that to happen more than once like that so close together
i've barely even played the new Hearthstone expansion and I was so excited about that a month ago
2 out of my past 3 drafts now I was late in the draft in Rakano with a plan to splash a few Primal cards then I get a pack 3 or 4 Siraf and splash her instead
so bizarre for that to happen more than once like that so close together
Karsticles
Member
I hit Gold in ranked tonight - yay! I went the entire evening only losing one match with my Haunting Scream deck. I'm a big fan of that archetype, and I wish there wasn't a hard counter to it.
Wen 6-3 after going 0-2 feels amazing man.
Woo 7-1 thanks to the goddess of mana screw!!!!!
0-3 thanks to the goddess of mana screw
I am never drafting Elysian again, but I couldn't pass up Crown of Possibilities.
Woo 7-1 thanks to the goddess of mana screw!!!!!
0-3 thanks to the goddess of mana screw
I am never drafting Elysian again, but I couldn't pass up Crown of Possibilities.
Shai-Tan
Banned
I'm trying to actually get to master with Clockroaches (with Dawnwalker and Sandstorm Titan). Was only 30 points to master but then I lost all the way to 50 points into diamond 2. Part of the problem is when I get a losing streak I start to make drastic changes to my deck so what I am playing every day ends up being like 20% different. Since the Crown of Possibilities nerf the path to winning is just having card advantage in duplicating echo units or casting twinning on Dawnwalkers. Not even trying to beat the Praxis Token/Shimmerpack deck helped get my average win rate up since I don't have to bother including lightning storm anymore. Since I like going off with crown and both Rakano and Stonescar burn try to take advantage of early board into removal I'm leaning on Polymorph and Rain of Frogs in 3 of each (jn addition to the 4 of Permafrost which is a no brainer). Poly/Permafrost to slow down early board advantage (because the first few creatures jammed in the way to block are almost guaranteed to be killed and Rain of Frogs to kill problematic top end (Impending Doom/Umbren Reaper/Flame Blast for Stonescar, Various Weapons for Rakano.. just so happens it works well to break up Haunting Scream and control decks like Icaria Blue).
The problem with Clockroach is it does nothing until turn 3 so it's important to include ramp like Initiate of the Sands for the possibility to actually do something on turn 2 and switching from spell based sigil seeking to creature based that requires some kind of interaction like Amber Acolyte. So I actually took out Second Sight from the deck so the only doubling mechanism now is Twinning and Nesting Avisaur.
The problem with Clockroach is it does nothing until turn 3 so it's important to include ramp like Initiate of the Sands for the possibility to actually do something on turn 2 and switching from spell based sigil seeking to creature based that requires some kind of interaction like Amber Acolyte. So I actually took out Second Sight from the deck so the only doubling mechanism now is Twinning and Nesting Avisaur.
Force of Will is basically anime Magic, with 5 colors and all, and it solves the problem by simply having a separate land-only deck. Every turn you can draw one card from the deck. Of course, this still has a chance of screwing you if you run a heavily multicolor deck, but it's still a huge step up for all other scenarios.
A shame Eternal didn't do something like that, since I got excited after reading the OP only to lose all interest after seeing it has a plain Magic-style mana system.
Although that sounds like a consistent system allowing for multi-color play, does it even let control players ramp into higher mana while aggro stays on lower? Do you draw from either the proper deck or the land deck every turn?
Because that is honestly the big reason why I'll endure land systems before somebody thinks of something better. If it isn't asymmetric mana gain, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
had a 7 win draft earlier with probably the worst deck i've ever had
was pretty much just 2 renegade valkyries,a rampage,a finest hour,and a couple small weapons(warhelm/heavy axe/elder's feather) managed to go 7-2 purely on getting a valkyrie up and killing the opponent with it over a few turns
was pretty much just 2 renegade valkyries,a rampage,a finest hour,and a couple small weapons(warhelm/heavy axe/elder's feather) managed to go 7-2 purely on getting a valkyrie up and killing the opponent with it over a few turns
Was about to "complain" about the 10% chance of any chest being upgraded hadn't proc'd for me in forever. But then my gold chest for the weekly deck quest was upgraded to a diamond, netting me 2000 gold and a pack. Pretty crazy, considering I opened 7 other bronze and silver reward chests tonight.
Karsticles
Member
Does anyone know the monthly rewards for ranked play?
either 2 or 3(I forget which) chests of your rank(Master the same as Diamond) for each of ranked and draft
is this the "OT" for now? Im going to assume so.
What governs them handing out decks, is it random? is it after you havent played in awhile? it seems both times they gave me decks (and a daily to use that deck) was after I was away for a week or so, coincidence?
Anyway had my best draft yet, went 6-3 with a red/green deck, last game was real close too, shame. But it would have given me 3 plat chests, which I got anyway since my one gold turned into plat heh, my biggest payday yet.
What governs them handing out decks, is it random? is it after you havent played in awhile? it seems both times they gave me decks (and a daily to use that deck) was after I was away for a week or so, coincidence?
Anyway had my best draft yet, went 6-3 with a red/green deck, last game was real close too, shame. But it would have given me 3 plat chests, which I got anyway since my one gold turned into plat heh, my biggest payday yet.
The free 2-color decks with a quest? Think those are given either every week or every other week until you have all 5.
Ah cool. I love the red/green warcry deck, its my main after some alterations
That sounds so well thought out I'd vastly prefer that. monocolor decks are rewarded for their faithfulness while multi-color finds a more difficult time I imagine. I like it!
exactly every week yeah
for example I started playing on Sunday the 20th and so far every single Monday I have gotten one of those deck quests
Just had 5 games in a row on ranked where 3 games I had no mana (only 2 power cards whole game or until I conceeded) and 2 games I had a hand full of power cards and nothing to play.
Maybe there is something to Hearthstone's mana system afterall >_>
Maybe there is something to Hearthstone's mana system afterall >_>
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think the thing they should copy is the mulligan. This way you're way less likely to mulligan a full hand to end up with 2 power and a handful of expensive unusable cards.
I know. I was thinking this. But, in the end, I still think I will take the mana system as it isn't as bad as Hearthstone's RNG as a whole.
Karsticles
Member
There are so many ways to address the situation, and it's a shame they aren't doing any of them. Here are some things that can help reduce mana screw:
1) Hearthstone-style mulligan - always a great idea IMO.
2) In Spellweaver, when you play a land you automatically draw a card. This is especially nice in the midgame when you might be top decking and really don't want to get a land.
3) In Duelyst, you can replace 1 card in your hand every turn.
4) In Faeria, you can choose whether to gain mana or draw an extra card every turn.
5) In one game I don't recall, you can choose whether you draw a land or draw a non-land every turn.
There are just so many options that are superior to straight MtG-style land distribution, and I would really like to see it change. I don't think a Hearthstone-style mana system is the end-all be-all of resource systems, but any land-based system needs something more to help it along I think.
Wok
Member
Sometimes I get a free deck to complete a special quest and I get to keep the cards. How often is such a quest offered to the player? Weekly? Or on another basis?
Edit: OK.
Edit: OK.
that was a great feeling game
managed to win a draft game earlier where the opponent did turn 3 crown of possibilities>turn 4 thunderstrike dragon destiny+nesting avisaur,turn 5 the serpent trainer they put back in their deck gets echo
was able to stall it out with a couple spells then eventually win with a pillar of amar
managed to win a draft game earlier where the opponent did turn 3 crown of possibilities>turn 4 thunderstrike dragon destiny+nesting avisaur,turn 5 the serpent trainer they put back in their deck gets echo
was able to stall it out with a couple spells then eventually win with a pillar of amar