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NYT: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

A

Althane

Member
morch said:
Where did these immature idiots cone from? I really don't understand the tech industry and I'm a self employed ict consultant and really nerdy :-/ maybe growing up the uk is a bit different to over in the us...

They really come across like little children and its difficult to take them seriously, but they have some influence and its disturbing
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Lack of introspection, combined with... well, look at the image listing the sites above, and you can get an idea.

They self-reinforce their ideas by going to the echo-chamber sites and forums (neogaf.jgp :D), and lose their critical thinking capabilities. Then roll in some entitlement (easy to find, and not just in millennials!) and lack of empathy ("You made fun of us for being nerds, now the shoe is on the other foot!"), and the outcome is fairly easy to predict.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
KonradLaw said:
Of course, I guess the situation is different in Poland, since gender pay gap is like 7% here and almost all of it stems from maternal leaves and women being elegible to retire 5 years earlier than men (something than EU is giving us a lot of grief about). If it would be 20% like in USA then systemic measures to close it might have been needed.
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The gap is not 20% in the US when you compare similar jobs.
 
C

Chaos2Frozen

Member
DiscoShark said:
IeRRw3J.png
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....What's "NoFap" 0_o ? Just another dating site?
 
E

EdibleKnife

Member
Chaos2Frozen said:
....What's "NoFap" 0_o ? Just another dating site?
Click to expand...

No Fap is a community/movement among these types that emphasize avoiding porn and not masturbating and claims it results in benefits such as increased confidence, sexual prowess and attraction to the opposite sex ie. "Women will find you more attractive and you will be if you never/rarely masturbate."
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Ishan said:
Ridiculous . I know many women way smarter than me but Silicon Valley and science has to be maintained as a meritocracy ... Women whip men's asses easily on it anyway


Edit only idiots think women are worse but also only idiots things we have to somehow make it equal with gender science is science math is math programming is programming


Edit 2 culturally yes we have to stop the bias against encouraging women to get into the fields but once in the field Im all for a complete meritocracy
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Silicon Valley is not a meritocracy
 
S

SJurgenson

Banned
Oblivion said:
I know this guy's banned, but I always thought it was weird how some of the most misogynistic, racist and bigoted kinds of people are nerds. You'd think that people who got picked on a lot growing up would realize how shitty it felt and not want to treat others the way they were treated.



i'm gonna forward this to the HR department at Nvidia
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Maybe you should email the CEO, Jensen, too.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Althane said:
Lack of introspection, combined with... well, look at the image listing the sites above, and you can get an idea.

They self-reinforce their ideas by going to the echo-chamber sites and forums (neogaf.jgp :D), and lose their critical thinking capabilities. Then roll in some entitlement (easy to find, and not just in millennials!) and lack of empathy ("You made fun of us for being nerds, now the shoe is on the other foot!"), and the outcome is fairly easy to predict.
Click to expand...

Added to this, it's tempting to believe that outsiders like "nerds" would naturally want to "fight the system", tear down the mechanisms of oppression, and generally understand the struggle of all people are fucked over by the status quo.

The sad reality is that many outsiders desperately want to be like the people who kick them in the face - society's message about what is desirable can be just as effective on people who are marginalized as well as those who are part of the in-group.

A huge amount of messaging directed at the resentful young male is predicated on telling them they deserve to be the big bully man, the taskmaster driving a ship full of wenches and ale.
 
P

Par Score

Member
Wow.
One of those who said there had been a change is James Altizer, an engineer at the chip maker Nvidia. Mr. Altizer, 52, said he had realized a few years ago that feminists in Silicon Valley had formed a cabal whose goal was to subjugate men. At the time, he said, he was one of the few with that view.

”It's a witch hunt," he said in a phone interview, contending men are being fired by ”dangerous" human resources departments. ”I'm sitting in a soundproof booth right now because I'm afraid someone will hear me. When you're discussing gender issues, it's almost religious, the response. It's almost zealotry."

”I've been on the hiring side for years," Mr. Altizer said, adding that he is not currently hiring people. ”It would be nice to have women, but you cannot find applicants."
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This James Altizer guy just opened Nvidia up to a whole lot of employment discrimination lawsuits.

Like, any woman who's worked near this guy, or been part of any hiring process that might have tangentially involved this guy should be lawyering up as we speak.
 
G

GamerJM

Banned
They're wrong

Also had James never sent out a sexist manifesto to everyone I'm pretty sure he would have probably had a good job at Google long term. Men in tech aren't under attack, your terrible ideas are.
 
C

Chaos2Frozen

Member
EdibleKnife said:
No Fap is a community/movement among these types that emphasize avoiding porn and not masturbating and claims it results in benefits such as increased confidence, sexual prowess and attraction to the opposite sex ie. "Women will find you more attractive and you will be if you never/rarely masturbate."
Click to expand...

Oh, literally no fapping... no wonder these guys are frustrated.
 
O

Oberon

Banned
How hard can it be to not harrass women on the work place ( or anywhere for that matter).
What a sad pathetic person you have to be.
Why do they always overreact to the notion that they may try to hire more women anyway?
It's not like they're literally replacing every man with a woman, and I doubt it will just go up to 50 50. Even if there are more men than women on average interested in a job in the tech world (for probably social and biological reasons), there are still women that are interested.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Someone clue me in on who are these progressive jocks? I know the MGTOW type but not their supposed opposite.
 
T

TI82

Banned
And yet there is still only 1 girl at my software construction job. And only 3 girls in my school track at University. And 2 friends that are girls that are CS grad students.

The push is working slowly, us men need to accept that we aren't being edged out but instead women are being encouraged to fulfill their potentials
 
J

jstripes

Banned
Mgtow aims for total male separatism, including forgoing children, avoiding marriage and limiting involvement with women
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There was an episode of the old animated series Duckman about that.

It didn't work out too well for the men.
 
S

Sianos

Member
i wonder how these foolish men feel about the trends of women on average outperforming men outperforming men in all levels of public schooling and earning significantly more university degrees?

think they will be logically consistent and claim that this disparity is because women have "better genetics" than men, and by extension because of their "lesser genetics" men should all give up on schooling?

no, for some reason in this case they can correctly recognize that it's sociological factors that lead to the rise of female academic achievement test scores and fall of male's - i wonder why they're selectively able to do that????
 
S

sans_pants

avec_pénis
StrategyFan said:
there isn't really any common process of "getting up to speed". almost no companies here actually train programmers. they expect them to come pre-trained

if the pool of applicants is almost entirely male, that's how the workforce ends up

fixing that (i.e. making sure high school girls want to become programmers) is a 30+ year process
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but part of fixing it is making the end result (ie the good jobs) appealing and welcoming to women

and making the bootcamps more welcoming

and the college programs

and the high school programs


yes, all levels need to be worked on. but you cant start at the bottom and expect it to work out 30 years from now without also fixing things at the top
 
S

Shao Kahn on the Lawn

Member
V_Arnold said:
Thing is, this is a disingenous argument because it assumes that women cant get up to speed with the field (and therefore, fuck quotas, AMIRITE?), but somehow if we take that out of the equation, males out of bootcamps are fine, right? Because man gotta do what a man's gotta do!

So no, you cant just slap "wait 30 years, ok?" on an industry. Female programmers can be just as competent, obviously. It does not take more than a fifth grade biology knowledge to understand this. Therefore, the tech field's quotas are okay. And besides: actual coding is only like...one third of the job. Planning arcihtecture, communicating with the team is just as big part of it - and coincidentally, that is exactly the kind of bridges these kinds of MGOTW type of bullshit burns down effectively.
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There's nothing disingenuous about it. You can't simply "get up to speed" and compete at the level of performance that is expected in Silicon Valley (Or any serious firm anywhere) any more than you can spend a few months practicing guitar and then expect to compete for a job against the Frusciantes of the industry. It just doesn't work that way unless you're some kind of savant and those types of people don't have any issues finding a spot anywhere.

Bootcamps aren't fine as they're broadly panned for their inefficacy and viewed as a trendy money grab to separate rubes from their paychecks: spending a few weeks learning language-specific syntax and basic programming constructs will not make you a programmer. You're not going to be able to get through any serious technical interview with what you gain there, let alone take on Enterprise-scale programming assignments.

Architecture is handled by engineers/architects and communications/scheduling are largely handled by project managers who have also spend years/decades learning how to analyze and address the responsibilities they're given. There are no shortcuts to any of these professions and the fact of the matter is that while you're trying to 'get up to speed', the high-level performers in the industry that you're competing with are themselves continuing to improve on their craft every day.
 
M

MutFox

Banned
It's getting more and more divisive everyday.
Insults being spewed aren't helping,
but there's always an excuse for it.

It's gonna get worse before it gets better.
Hope we can look back on this in 20 years as growing pains.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
MutFox said:
It's getting more and more divisive everyday.
Insults being spewed aren't helping,
but there's always an excuse for it.

It's gonna get worse before it gets better.
Hope we can look back on this in 20 years as growing pains.
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If Dotard and the Rocket Man don't blow everything up before then.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Mgtow aims for total male separatism, including forgoing children, avoiding marriage and limiting involvement with women.
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I'm sure women are lining up for the chance to be with someone from that organization and these men have every say in that matter. /s
 
T

tcrunch

Member
The fact that these misogynists get an airing on NYT despite having nothing to say but hatred is a sign of their power. The media's attempts to "show both sides" actively gives hate groups and hostility toward minorities legitimacy.
 
C

Cels

Member
it's obviously bad that the big tech companies don't seem to be doing much to prevent harassment of women, but on the hiring side i don't see what else they can do about the cultural factors that have led to there being fewer women in tech.

if i'm google/facebook i want to hire the best, most qualified people, this is typically people who have EE/CS degrees from the top programs in the country like berkeley, stanford, carnegie mellon, etc. if you look at the demographics of those kinds of grads, they are typically young white or asian men. that's just what it is.

google and facebook are obviously trying to recruit from the small proportion of women who do graduate from those prestigious programs but there aren't enough. and of course you get idiots like the ones discussed in the article who feel like those special outreach programs hurt men or they even believe that women have less capacity to do engineering. complete nonsense, as there is no proof that women are worse at science/math than men. and i think they could do better to stem harassment and create an environment that's more welcoming to women but i'd say that's hard when most of your workforce, especially management, are men. having more management that are women would help of course, but under-representation of women in the c-level positions is not a problem that's unique to the tech world either.

society pushes girls away from math/science at an early age which is a wider cultural problem with this country. if we encouraged women to go into science instead of making it seem like a boys-only thing then things would gradually improve on the hiring side. if you look at india women aren't pushed away from science/math to the same degree in america, they don't have it equal there in representation either but it's better than america at least.
 
P

ProfessorMoran

Member
Aizo said:
It goes on to mention the recent case with James Damore being fired from Google.



These men are pathetic.
Full article

Exile me to male separatist society if old.
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Men tend to be much more willing to sacrifice family and relationships for their career in most industries, it's not something one can legislate or regulate, you can force companies to hire to meet gender quotas but you'll end up having women drop out of certain industries that consist of men willing to work 70-80 hours a week who don't give a shit about coming home and playing with their kids, men traditionally don't care as much about work life balance and that's something that is unlikely to change. It's not patriarchy but men willing to make the sacrifice that women are often smart enough to avoid, when you have a couple, you have to have someone willing to work himself to death and get that heart attack early, and usually it's the guy.

There's also the issue of biological differences, women face the reality that their reproductive apparatuses are on a timer, they start having fertility problems when they go into their mid-late 30s, they have to make a choice between advancing their careers and giving up 18-24 months of their prime years to childbirth and childcare, and that's just for one kid, men can go into their late 40s and still be relatively fertile, and they tend to be less caring parents.

I'm not sure why we're pushing women to be like miserable single guys without children even if those guys make more money because they have nothing else to do but work.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
tcrunch said:
The fact that these misogynists get an airing on NYT despite having nothing to say but hatred is a sign of their power. The media's attempts to "show both sides" actively gives hate groups and hostility toward minorities legitimacy.
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I think it is good that this stuff is in the open. Because for a long time a lot of people had this image of the tech industry as progressive. Turns out, that isn't really the case. And people should be called out for it. You can't do that if it remains this hidden secret you'll only encounter when working in the field.
 
S

SyenceLabb

Member
Can anyone point me to some literature that discusses how society in America pushes women away from STEM at an early age? I’ve been wanting to read up on this more.
 
A

AmayaPapaya

Banned
I'm glad I haven't seen this side yet. With the University l I went to, the school I was in actually had slightly more women than men, despite being computer science related. The atmosphere was always chill, and it was a great space to be in.

This is partly why representation is so important. How are these guys going to be sexist etc...when half the field are women? You wouldn't move anywhere, or get hired.

Unfortunately, representation is not the case outside the University I went to, in the professional or learning world, usually. Hopefully we keep trying to diversify, because that is the best way to tackle this issue.
 
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