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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

Sakura

Sakura

Member
Korigama said:
Not sure if this makes me feel better or worse about the prospect of going for N1 some day. After the horror stories surrounding the difficulty of being certified N1, I had questioned how feasible it would be, even after having passed the JLPT at a lower level in the past.
Click to expand...

Honestly... I think the difficulty is overrated.
Like, compare it to some other language tests. I've taken the TOEFL, and you are required to speak English on the fly, responding to questions, you have to write paragraphs in English on subjects presented, given huge blocks of English text to read etc. It was super difficult.
Then you have the JLPT where you aren't required to have any ability to speak or write Japanese, and your score doesn't really matter either. Only thing that matters is if you pass or not, which only takes a measly 100/180 for N1. I've seen people go from zero to N2 after just a year or so of studying.
 
A

AnotherDayAnotherDollar

Banned
I started passively learning hiragana and katakana. Made some anki cards and started going at it. Some of the characters are a lot easier to remember than others. A confusing one that immediately comes to mind is tsu and shi in katakana (ツ / ㇱ). Also, some of the chinese characters that I know are not the same in kanji, for example the color red is different. I will see if I'll keep up with it because right now it's confusing me more than anything else lol.
 
B

Beckx

Member
Gacha-pin said:
"で" is the one you should use here. 3-4で負けていたが最終的に12-4で勝った。

の is always followed by 名詞. You can use it like 10-9の接戦で○○○が試合を制した。
Click to expand...

Thank you!
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
JLPT as a test of Japanese is pretty crappy compared to even something like Eiken. But since Japanese isn't the defacto second language in any country, Asking someone to get good at speaking and writing Japanese in countries where there is barely any Japanese population or courses of study, places way too many people in a totally unfair position. Personally, I would like to see a version of JLPT which encourages writing and speaking as maybe a secondary, higher level qualification but completely optional. Something a bit similar to Eiken which has a separate interview section. Even this would eventually screw a lot of people though.
 
E

Eccocid

Member
So after seeing this;

CRDu2zD.png


I am wondering if people are naming radicals by themselves or all of them have set names?

This is so stupid. Yeah i memorized it by that name but is it based on something?

Also again in Wanikani ⺌ radical is named as triceraptor...wtf... Other resources tell me it's name is "small"

⼱ also is named as "two face" ugh...
 
D

Dantero

Member
Eccocid said:
So after seeing this;

I am wondering if people are naming radicals by themselves or all of them have set names?

This is so stupid. Yeah i memorized it by that name but is it based on something?

Also again in Wanikani ⺌ radical is named as triceraptor...wtf... Other resources tell me it's name is "small"

⼱ also is named as "two face" ugh...
Click to expand...

Wanikani radicals are used to make stories. They're only supposed to be memorable and make easy story material. And they do their job well, imo.
 
S

sackboy2197

Member
Eccocid said:
So after seeing this;

CRDu2zD.png


I am wondering if people are naming radicals by themselves or all of them have set names?

This is so stupid. Yeah i memorized it by that name but is it based on something?

Also again in Wanikani ⺌ radical is named as triceraptor...wtf... Other resources tell me it's name is "small"

⼱ also is named as "two face" ugh...
Click to expand...
WK uses its own set of radical names. Then they use them for their mnemonics. You're free to use your own names, but then you'll have to make your own mnemonics obviously.
I'd like to add that often times they're quite silly on purpose, so that it will be easier to remember, rather than something real common like "small".
 
E

Eccocid

Member
sackboy2197 said:
WK uses its own set of radical names. Then they use them for their mnemonics. You're free to use your own names, but then you'll have to make your own mnemonics obviously.
I'd like to add that often times they're quite silly on purpose, so that it will be easier to remember, rather than something real common like "small".
Click to expand...

Yeah but does radical names carry a weight in future?
The "small" radical when used in a kanji does it carry the meaning of small to an extension?
 
S

sackboy2197

Member
Eccocid said:
Yeah but does radical names carry a weight in future?
The "small" radical when used in a kanji does it carry the meaning of small to an extension?
Click to expand...
No, radicals are just a way to remember kanji. Basically kanji are made of one (rarely) or more radicals. In the end what you want to remember is the kanji itself, radicals are a mean to do that. An important thing though is that radicals sometimes (not sure if there's a rule for it though) carry a specific reading, so that, even if you don't know a certain kanji, you can make a guess for how to read it.
Please, someone correct me if I got something wrong.
 
S

Snow

Member
Also, I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, only been reading up on the topic for couple of weeks) the word 'radical' has quite a specific meaning for kanji (and Chinese characters in general) and a kanji usually only has one of them. Radical in that sense of the word can have semantic meaning, I think? When wanikani and a lot of other kanji learning systems use the word 'radical' however they tend to just mean a common subcomponent of kanji, basically one of the shapes that a character can be build from.

I think one of the pieces of common wisdom for mnemonic stories is that if they're a bit more wild and outlandish they're gonna stick better, compared to something very plain and boring. The radical names end up featuring in those mnemonic stories, so makes sense to not be afraid to make them a little silly.
 
N

Nakho

Member
I still don't fully understand the whiteboard method. Am I supposed to believe i'm an expert used to write ~6000 words and learn 25 kanji every day and it only took him 3 hours a day? The math doesn't add up.
 
J

Jintor

Member
i mean i get about 300 or so on in twenty-thirty minutes on flashcards during my morning grogginess, so i think it's posssssssible for a human to do it maybe
 
N

Nakho

Member
Snow said:
Also, I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, only been reading up on the topic for couple of weeks) the word 'radical' has quite a specific meaning for kanji (and Chinese characters in general) and a kanji usually only has one of them. Radical in that sense of the word can have semantic meaning, I think? When wanikani and a lot of other kanji learning systems use the word 'radical' however they tend to just mean a common subcomponent of kanji, basically one of the shapes that a character can be build from.

I think one of the pieces of common wisdom for mnemonic stories is that if they're a bit more wild and outlandish they're gonna stick better, compared to something very plain and boring. The radical names end up featuring in those mnemonic stories, so makes sense to not be afraid to make them a little silly.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's basically it. The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course call these individual pieces "graphemes", because using "radicals" would be a little misleading.
 
N

Nakho

Member
Jintor said:
i mean i get about 300 or so on in twenty-thirty minutes on flashcards during my morning grogginess, so i think it's posssssssible for a human to do it maybe
Click to expand...

You would have to do those 300 in ten minutes, and keep that pace for hours... I call bullshit.

Not saying there's no merit to the method, but maybe some sliding scheme could be used? Like, after you hit 1000 kanji, for every 25 kanji you add to the list, you remove the 25 oldest ones.
 
K

kmax

Member
Nakho said:
I still don't fully understand the whiteboard. Am I supposed to believe i'm an expert used to write ~6000 words and learn 25 kanji every day and it only took him 3 hours a day? The math doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

As someone that did 10 kanji a day for an entire year, that's the fastest way to burn yourself out.

25 new kanji + 6000 words per day is wacky considering the fact that reviewing is the task that takes the most time. Just thinking about the review load on that is laughable.
 
R

Resilient

Member
Nakho said:
I still don't fully understand the whiteboard method. Am I supposed to believe i'm an expert used to write ~6000 words and learn 25 kanji every day and it only took him 3 hours a day? The math doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

Jintor said:
i mean i get about 300 or so on in twenty-thirty minutes on flashcards during my morning grogginess, so i think it's posssssssible for a human to do it maybe
Click to expand...

come on. are we seriously gonna do this again lol. you can't say it's not possible because you've never tried to make it work - if you did, you'd have done it. it's possible. you just have to commit to it and give up basically everything else. at the peak it took 6-8 hours a day.

also, dont look at it as the key to learning kanji. that takes a lot of time to do properly; whiteboard was always just a way to quickly equip yourself with the tools to read. the rest is a marathon of learning, like basically everybody else in the thread says.
 
N

Nakho

Member
Resilient said:
come on. are we seriously gonna do this again lol. you can't say it's not possible because you've never tried to make it work - if you did, you'd have done it. it's possible. you just have to commit to it and give up basically everything else. at the peak it took 6-8 hours a day.

also, dont look at it as the key to learning kanji. that takes a lot of time to do properly; whiteboard was always just a way to quickly equip yourself with the tools to read. the rest is a marathon of learning, like basically everybody else in the thread says.
Click to expand...

I just said it seemed impossible to me to do it in 3 hours a day. 6-8 hours a day sounds much more reasonable. I'm rereading what I wrote and it may have sounded like I have a problem with the volume of reviewing, but it's the time commitment that seems unrealistic to me.
 
P

Pixeluh

Member
Just feel like asking again since there was no responses last time....

Has anyone gone through the core 2000, 6000, 10000 decks? How did you make it work for you? Did it get boring?
 
H

Hypron

Member
Nakho said:
I just said it seemed impossible to me to do it in 3 hours a day. 6-8 hours a day sounds much more reasonable. I'm rereading what I wrote and it may have sounded like I have a problem with the volume of reviewing, but it's the time commitment that seems unrealistic to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah 3 hours is an exaggeration (like a lot of things expert said - he once said you could pass N5 from scratch after a weekend of study), 8 hours is a bit more realistic (but you're not writing all the word every day, you stop doing old words after a while).

I stopped doping it when I realised it wasn't going to work out for me (to make it fit my schedule I'd have to stop reviewing words before I remember them properly).
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
Nakho said:
I just said it seemed impossible to me to do it in 3 hours a day. 6-8 hours a day sounds much more reasonable. I'm rereading what I wrote and it may have sounded like I have a problem with the volume of reviewing, but it's the time commitment that seems unrealistic to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's more like a full time job that you do for three months. Really you can fit and adapt that method to what you can do or a jumping off point for your own method.
 
U

upandaway

Member
Pixeluh said:
Just feel like asking again since there wafs no responses last time....

Has anyone gone through the core 2000, 6000, 10000 decks? How did you make it work for you? Did it get boring?
Click to expand...
I did 2k and 6k, gave up before 10k after I started working since work+school was too much (more mentally than because of time). It's definitely not a long term strategy - you'll forget every last card if you stop for a medium amount of time, unless you move on to using the language in other ways.

If you're going to be using it as its own goal towards learning kanji then it's not worth the time or energy. Clearing 2k/6k as a "jump start" to be able to read Japanese things is about the best use for it. The only way you're gonna retain the vocabulary is with context that cards don't have, but they're a decent way to get to an initial position where you can at least read the context.
 
A

AnotherDayAnotherDollar

Banned
I have a really hard time when I see these characters. I can't really remember which one is which. If I'm being honest it's a 50/50 guess when I see them:

Code: 
tsu / shi / so / n
ツ    ㇱ    ソ   ン
 
K

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:
I have a really hard time when I see these characters. I can't really remember which one is which. If I'm being honest it's a 50/50 guess when I see them:

Code: 
tsu / shi / so / n
ツ    ㇱ    ソ   ン
Click to expand...

Tsu and So are more vertical, as you write them from top to bottom. Shi and n are "flatter", and you should write the swish part from left to right (i.e. bottom to top).

It takes a bit of being used to, but nothing major, trust me. We've all been there. You'll get it in no time.
 
T

the-pi-guy

Member
AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:
I have a really hard time when I see these characters. I can't really remember which one is which. If I'm being honest it's a 50/50 guess when I see them:

Code: 
tsu / shi / so / n
ツ    ㇱ    ソ   ン
Click to expand...
Some things that helped me:
With so, the small line points down and the large line is drawn from the top down. The same with tsu.

With n, the small line points more sideways, and the large line is written left to right (more bottom up). Same with shi.

Connecting the stroke order with the characters can help a lot I find.
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:
I have a really hard time when I see these characters. I can't really remember which one is which. If I'm being honest it's a 50/50 guess when I see them:

Code: 
tsu / shi / so / n
ツ    ㇱ    ソ   ン
Click to expand...
つ し そ ん

Tsu goes through the two lines. Shi goes through the two lines. So, is always the one that has the first drop almost straight. N is always a bit more sideways. Just look at how the hiragana compares to the katakana shapes. Edit: except if you write on a PC, SO font is drawn almost sideways which is confusing. Handwritten is totally different.

Anyways, I installed Wanikani and I have a love-hate relationship with it. I am not a beginner but sometimes I don't know what to answer to Wanikani, for example 月. Is it asking the moon spelling or month spelling? How do I know? Fuck! Because if I answer "wrong" it keeps repeating the samr kanji over and over again.
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
dofry said:
Anyways, I installed Wanikani and I have a love-hate relationship with it. I am not a beginner but sometimes I don't know what to answer to Wanikani, for example 月. Is it asking the moon spelling or month spelling? How do I know? Fuck! Because if I answer "wrong" it keeps repeating the samr kanji over and over again.
Click to expand...
No idea how Wanikani works, but 月 by itself is hardly ever read as げつ which I assume is what you mean by month spelling. If it is just showing 月 by itself with no context as to what it is looking for, and is taking つき as a wrong answer, then I think you would just be better off with Anki or something.
 
S

sackboy2197

Member
dofry said:
Anyways, I installed Wanikani and I have a love-hate relationship with it. I am not a beginner but sometimes I don't know what to answer to Wanikani, for example 月. Is it asking the moon spelling or month spelling? How do I know? Fuck! Because if I answer "wrong" it keeps repeating the samr kanji over and over again.
Click to expand...
I suggest getting an app with the "ignore answer" option. That way you'll be able to correct it if you put the wrong answer (as in, not the reading WK wanted for the kanji).
 
K

Korigama

Member
Jintor said:
just remember all of them, that's what i do
Click to expand...
.

Memorizing all hiragana and katakana should be one of the first steps taken when starting out with learning Japanese. Shouldn't take too long if reviewed routinely.
Sakura said:
Honestly... I think the difficulty is overrated.
Like, compare it to some other language tests. I've taken the TOEFL, and you are required to speak English on the fly, responding to questions, you have to write paragraphs in English on subjects presented, given huge blocks of English text to read etc. It was super difficult.
Then you have the JLPT where you aren't required to have any ability to speak or write Japanese, and your score doesn't really matter either. Only thing that matters is if you pass or not, which only takes a measly 100/180 for N1. I've seen people go from zero to N2 after just a year or so of studying.
Click to expand...
Porcile said:
JLPT as a test of Japanese is pretty crappy compared to even something like Eiken. But since Japanese isn't the defacto second language in any country, Asking someone to get good at speaking and writing Japanese in countries where there is barely any Japanese population or courses of study, places way too many people in a totally unfair position. Personally, I would like to see a version of JLPT which encourages writing and speaking as maybe a secondary, higher level qualification but completely optional. Something a bit similar to Eiken which has a separate interview section. Even this would eventually screw a lot of people though.
Click to expand...
Compared to tests I've had to take while in school, the JLPT is indeed much simpler in the way it's administered.
 
M

maxcriden

Member
I'm loving the NHK Web Easy app since the site is a pain on mobile. A friend in Japan told me though that the articles contain only very easy Kanji. But Jisho says when I look up some of the Kanji that they're plenty advanced or uncommon. Which source is accurate? Trying to figure out how unknowledgeable I should feel for not knowing a good number of the kanji herein. (My problem area is grammar though and that's my focus at the moment, and some books from my wife, dramas, radio, Maggie Sensei's lessons, Rosetta Stone, and this app have been a huge help in that respect.)
 
S

Snow

Member
Sakura said:
No idea how Wanikani works, but 月 by itself is hardly ever read as げつ which I assume is what you mean by month spelling. If it is just showing 月 by itself with no context as to what it is looking for, and is taking つき as a wrong answer, then I think you would just be better off with Anki or something.
Click to expand...
So only been using the app for couple weeks, but so for I haven't really had any issue with being confused which reading it wants. It will introduce the kanji with one common reading (usually onyomi), but if you end up entering e.g. the kunyomi during review on a 'kanji' item then it will not fail you on it, just give you a 'we're looking for the onyomi' message.

Then later it will give the kanji in the context of vocab words and you should get from context which reading is needed. E.g. the vocab "月" will only accept つき and e.g. "二月" will only accept にがつ. You do need to pay attention to an item being a 'kanji' review item (wants first reading you got, but won't fail you if you enter another) and a 'vocab' review item (wants the reading that makes sense for the whole word, where the word sometimes is a single kanji). It signals what it wants with big bold headings and color coding.
 
H

Hypron

Member
maxcriden said:
I'm loving the NHK Web Easy app since the site is a pain on mobile. A friend in Japan told me though that the articles contain only very easy Kanji. But Jisho says when I look up some of the Kanji that they're plenty advanced or uncommon. Which source is accurate? Trying to figure out how unknowledgeable I should feel for not knowing a good number of the kanji herein. (My problem area is grammar though and that's my focus at the moment, and some books from my wife, dramas, radio, Maggie Sensei's lessons, Rosetta Stone, and this app have been a huge help in that respect.)
Click to expand...

If it helps, I'm a bit more than halfway through the kodansha kanji learner's guide (1,300 kanji) and I know probably 95% of the kanji that come up in NHK Easy articles. The ones I don't know are usually in place/people names or technical terms which are explained. I would guess it probably tries to only use the kanji taught in primary school (教育漢字).
 
M

maxcriden

Member
Hypron said:
If it helps, I'm a bit more than halfway through the kodansha kanji learner's guide (1,300 kanji) and I know probably 95% of the kanji that come up in NHK Easy articles. The ones I don't know are usually in place/people names or technical terms which are explained. I would guess it probably tries to only use the kanji taught in primary school (教育漢字).
Click to expand...

That does help, thank you. I guess as a dude trying to learn Japanese in the little free time I get, I can't feel badly about not knowing 600+ just yet. I wonder how many I do know...

How many kanji do kids generally know by the time they enter high school?
 
D

DRB

Neo Member
dofry said:
Anyways, I installed Wanikani and I have a love-hate relationship with it. I am not a beginner but sometimes I don't know what to answer to Wanikani, for example 月. Is it asking the moon spelling or month spelling? How do I know? Fuck! Because if I answer "wrong" it keeps repeating the samr kanji over and over again.
Click to expand...

Purple background means it wants the kun'yomi reading and on'yomi when it's pink.
 
S

sackboy2197

Member
DRB said:
Purple background means it wants the kun'yomi reading and on'yomi when it's pink.
Click to expand...
It's not always that way, but most of the time it is. When it's pink it's the kanji itself, for which generally WK teaches you the on'yomi (but often enough it's the kun'yomi, as it might be more common). With purple it's the vocab, so it should always be the kun'yomi (there could be some exceptions, but less than the other way around).
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
DRB said:
Purple background means it wants the kun'yomi reading and on'yomi when it's pink.
Click to expand...

Oh, there's colour coding too. Somehow I never registered even though I've used it daily. Even if it's not always used, but mostly.

I will check in seven hours how the colours work in the review.

Edit: and thanks for all the other replies.
 
S

Snow

Member
dofry said:
Oh, there's colour coding too. Somehow I never registered even though I've used it daily. Even if it's not always used, but mostly.

I will check in seven hours how the colours work in the review.

Edit: and thanks for all the other replies.
Click to expand...
The color coding is on top of big banner that says "vocab reading" or "kanji reading". Purple is vocab; the reason it's usually kunyomi is that if you have a word made out of a single kanji it usually is onyomi, but it just always means whatever the reading would be if the kanji is used as a single word rather than e.g. a jukugo word.

If it's pink it's a "kanji reading" and it wants the reading(s) it gave first, which usually means onyomi, unless kunyomi ends up being way more common for that kanji. But if you happen to give one of the other readings for a "kanji reading" review something like this will happen:
Code: 
[img]http://i.imgur.com/tkO1Unh.png[/img]
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
Yeah, I just had to slow down and read properly. I was just trying to rush to new kanjis and that is what causes me to repeat basic ones. And rushing is impossible in Wanikani anyway as it does not let you fastforward. Timer based is good and will ramp up oneday. Just need patience to get there.
 
D

Dantero

Member
dofry said:
Yeah, I just had to slow down and read properly. I was just trying to rush to new kanjis and that is what causes me to repeat basic ones. And rushing is impossible in Wanikani anyway as it does not let you fastforward. Timer based is good and will ramp up oneday. Just need patience to get there.
Click to expand...

Be happy about the slow pace at the beginning. It'll ease you into the system without seeming overwhelming at first. At a decent pace through WK, ie 10 days per level, you'll spent around 90 minutes to 2 hours a day on WK alone.
Try KaniWani and grammar at the same time and you'll be at 4 hours a day. People that complain about WK being slow are always those who just started.
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
Dantero said:
Be happy about the slow pace at the beginning. It'll ease you into the system without seeming overwhelming at first. At a decent pace through WK, ie 10 days per level, you'll spent around 90 minutes to 2 hours a day on WK alone.
Try KaniWani and grammar at the same time and you'll be at 4 hours a day. People that complain about WK being slow are always those who just started.
Click to expand...

I only complain because I already know a lot of kanjis and FAQ stated already that "everyone starts at zero so get used to it". So I know it sucks to start from zero but I know it'll ramp up eventually. My friend suggested kaniwani too so I'll check that tonight.

I have those extra hours for studying because I want to really expand my vocabulary. I can talk normally but I can't understand the lab research lingo at all. For those I need Anki with a custom dictionary. That is my current combo.

Even though I complain about Wanikani, I still like it. It drills me regularly and I've noticed that I've forgotten a lot of the basics too. And I am committed to it. Feels nice to remember and laugh at the stupid Charlie Sheen Mnemonics.
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
I should have started Wanikani a lot earlier. It definitely motivates me to learn more. For a couple of years I've been pretty much stuck to the same level of kanji but speaking has been steadily improving. SRS is my thing as I study everyday a bit. Good goooood.

Regarding Kaniwani, where do I get the API key for it? I am on mobile so do I need to get to a PC to get the API key or does the mobile app provide an option?
 
S

Snow

Member
dofry said:
I should have started Wanikani a lot earlier. It definitely motivates me to learn more. For a couple of years I've been pretty much stuck to the same level of kanji but speaking has been steadily improving. SRS is my thing as I study everyday a bit. Good goooood.

Regarding Kaniwani, where do I get the API key for it? I am on mobile so do I need to get to a PC to get the API key or does the mobile app provide an option?
Click to expand...

It's a little hidden; menu on the top right, then menu again from the dropdown, then settings. Then select the settings' account tab, api key should be there.


And I quite like Wanikani as well. Ordered the genki books a couple weeks ago so for now I'm just using wanikani and genki as sources for vocab. I have decided I really don't like Anki; the basic user experience really isn't very good, doing basic things just feels slightly too hard and while it is super adaptable some core things aren't and I'm somewhat skeptical of some of those choices in e.g. the core SRS algorithm. I ended up just programming my own SRS out of frustration eventually in python, because I knew it would only take me a couple hours (a digital flashcard app with spaced review really isn't rocket science), because I didn't feel like spending loads of time figuring how Anki can be modded, and then probably still end up with an experience I don't quite like.

Funy thing is that Gary Bernhardt (https://twitter.com/garybernhardt) -- who is one of the guys I sort of look up to as a programmer -- apparently is doing the exact same thing, also for doing Japanese vocab. Should maybe send him a mail to see what he cooked up.
 
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