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Darryl
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(08-13-2017, 07:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dr. Worm

Okay, yeah

Your Sorian read didn't change, but your Muffin read did, and the change of Muffin's read affected your perception of Sorian's original town read on Muffin

I can't seem to wrap my mind around the last part of this sentence. My read on Muffin's wasn't that particularly strong. These were really early/flaky reads. It was day #1 stuff and there wasn't much to go on.
Sawneeks
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(08-13-2017, 07:13 AM)
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since no one else is doing it: Kits & FEP: A Tale of Two Lovers

So i'm breaking this up into important bits and things that stick out to me ONLY. We're almost at 60 pages and rereads are a chore to do once they hit 40 so if you want a fully in-depth thing I recommend looking it up yourself.

Day 1:

FEP - #174 & #176 - FEP voting for Ouro and backing away immeditaly isn't new, he did it to open the game too.
FEP - #387 - Reads list tl;dr: Sophia is aggressive and therefore weird but Crimson is whatever, Ouro has done nothing but post lots, Ty/Darryl are OK, Star is quiet and weird.
FEP - #609 - Doesn't like Kark being on Xbro's leash.
FEP - #619 - Null reads Star and Orb, votes Ouro.
FEP - #654 - Moves votes over to Star for...some reason.
FEP - #948 - Likes Muffin, doesn't like Ouro but doesn't buy the whole 'Fireblend conspiracy' around him. Weird since he shifted his vote from Ouro to Star for no reason??
FEP - #963 - Reads list, not much I can discern from this one as nothing stands out.

Kits v. Dragonz
So I'm not going over this whole thing again, it's been talked about already so I want to focus on the reactions around it. For reference, the argument begins here with Kits.
Sophia - #332 - Doesn't understand where Dragonz is coming from when attacking Kits.
Ty - #333 - Comments to Dragonz how it's not unusual for Townies to do what Kits is doing.
Sophia - #340 - More shade on Dragonz, feels non-committal.
Fran - #344 - Comments on how it's 'funny' that Kits is bothered by nitpicks after Just Mafia ( never read Just mafia so not suuuuper sure what that means but it feels negative? )
Sophia - #346 - More not understanding of Dragonz position.
Natiko - #372 - Agrees with Dragonz that being concered with survival is typically scummy but is also willing to take into account 'new player syndrome' here.
Muffin - #423 - This is slightly towards the end of the argument but Muffin posts a reads list that contains VereDragonz but is oddly missing Kits/FEP?
Crimson - #455 & #457 - After-the-fact read of the fight; doesn't get Dragonz perspective but also doesn't like how Kits' only contributions so far have been defensive. Doesn't feel Kits' responses are scummy given their past game history.
Ouro - #467 - After-the-fact read; Vere makes good points so Dragonz is good but her argument against Kits is bad. BUT also Kits' is really defensive so i guess Kits > Dragonz for scum but idk.
Sam - #473 - Reads list tl;dr: doesn't get FEP's actions so far and Kits has been overly defensive which 'doesn't work in their favor'
Xbro - #479 - Sides with Kits and finds Dragonz to be the scummy pair in the fight. Kark chimes in a few posts later and says he feels it's Town v Town.
Nomad - #501 - Demands FEP's reads and says FEP is causing shenanigans??
Trigger - #697 - Feels Town on Kits v. Dragonz but suggests that when either flips they can go back and look at reactions. Feels preemptive and a weird thing to say if you feel they're both Town.
Royal - #921 - Reads list rl;dr: FEP has good contributions but Kit has only focused on the Dragonz argument. Says this is fine all things considered but still lists it as 'weird'.

Day End:
Ty - #1478 - Votes for Kits, doesn't like the Dragonz v Kits fight from earlier.
Crimson - #1556 - Votes for Kits with no explanation ( shortly moves to Orb later on asking if 'its a tie' )
Darryl - #1579 - Votes Kits with no explanation

Day 1 Ends

tl;dr

Kits doesn't do much other than fight Dragonz and FEP is the one who really gets the boat going by giving reads and some questions here and there. Not much I can really get from this tbh other than small things, nothing stands out with how FEP reacts to people and reads them.

When it comes to reactions I find it interesting that Muffin just completely leaves out Kits/FEP from his reads list early on despite including Vere/Dragonz. Sophia also raised on eyebrow at first but considering how much she defended Kits against Dragonz I'm not sure I see that as Scum defending Scum, possible but not likely. Natiko's response feels like non-committal shade, as do Ouro's and Crimson's responses which are essentially 'yes BUT' answers that can be taken both ways. Trigger's response also feels odd since he Town reads both but wants to look at responses if they flip scum, it just feels preemptive as if he knows that one of them will flip Scum.

When it comes to votes we've only got 3 on Kits by the end of the Day:
-Ty goes back-and-forth a lot but ends on Kits when it's Xbro/kark ( 4 ) vs Darryl/Nin ( 3 ) - if Kark or Darryl ends up Town I would put stock in Ty being Scum and hoping for Townie points by being on a scummy who wasn't in any danger of being lynched. If Kark or Darryl is Scum I'd put Ty as solid Town.
-Crimson votes for Kits with no explanation, the only thing I could find was him somewhat null reading the pair after Ty votes. This is roughly around Kark/Xbro ( 6 ) v Darryl/Nin ( 3 ). The ONLY thing here is he votes for Orb shortly before Day End after Darryl brings the Kits votes up to 3 when the votes were roughly around Kark/Xbro ( 3 ) v. Orb/Worthy ( 5 ) v. FEP/Kits ( 3 ). I can see a Scum!Crimson voting for a Scum!Kits lynch with no traction hoping for later Townie points only to get scared when Darryl upped the count and quickly jumped ship.
-Darryl.....has the Towniest vote here. His vote shoves Kits into the running, the only thing is he gives no explanation for his vote and given how he was on Sorian and Muffin for most of the day it sticks out as really odd. Possible he did this knowing another Scummie would vote elsewhere ( so either Xbro, Ouro, or Crimson ) but that seems way more coordinated than most Scum Teams. Kits also wasn't the popular lynch choice at the time ( it was Xbro or Kark ) so it's possible he gambled a scum mates life for Townie points but it's a stretch.
Sawneeks
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(08-13-2017, 07:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by hey_monkey

I see y'all honing in on my lover and I can see why you might, especially with Vere/Dragonz as the NK. But let me ask you this: would replacement !scum-me come in like I did with reads and questions or would I go another way? In other words, coming in as a replacement on a scum team, would I play exactly as I have in every other game so far?

Honest question, have you ever played Scum in Gafia before?

Because that's exactly how I would expect you to play and I find this statement really odd.
Dr. Worm
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(08-13-2017, 07:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darryl

I can't seem to wrap my mind around the last part of this sentence. My read on Muffin's wasn't that particularly strong. These were really early/flaky reads. It was day #1 stuff and there wasn't much to go on.

When you changed your mind about Muffin, you didn't change your read on Sorian. For Sorian, you saw his early statement on Muffin differently when you thought both were scum, compared to when you had a flaky town read on Muffin - instead of thinking he had a scum reaction to a town player, you thought he was a scum player backing up another scum player.
Sawneeks
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(08-13-2017, 07:20 AM)
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anyway i'm going to bed, that took way too long.

i'll get to Day 2 eventually, aka tomorrow.

night <3
hey_monkey
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(08-13-2017, 07:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sawneeks

Honest question, have you ever played Scum in Gafia before?

Because that's exactly how I would expect you to play and I find this statement really odd.

Nope, never been scum. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I would play that way. Because who knows, right? I'd have scum chat. But if my pard didn't really have suspicioun (and he didn't, just a few mentions), my gut tells me I'd try to lie a little lower and I had a good excuse to do so since I streamed for nine hours today.

That being said, I like your write up of the votes. There have been some very weird movements and a lot of nonsensical votes with no explanation and it's led to a lot of read lists that are very suspect heavy. I love re-reading the threads but I find this one kind of a tangle.
hey_monkey
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(08-13-2017, 07:28 AM)
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edit: would have scum chat to guide me* (helps if I finish the sentence)
Sophia
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(08-13-2017, 07:28 AM)
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I don't really have much to say right now, and I'll be heading to bed soon, so I'm kind of just observing.

But I will say this: I do like hey_monkey and Sawneeks's involvement in the day phase. Their proactive is, while not a direct town tell, making me feel a little easier at the moment.
Darryl
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(08-13-2017, 07:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by hey_monkey

But I hadn't realized Darryl was one of the others defending fep (a couple of times, actually, with some reasons, albeit kinda thin ones, unlike Ouro's defense of kits), which made me look at Darryl and fep. He voted there d1 and left it. Darryl also indicated kits and Ouro probably couldn't be same team here. Darryl, if you say Ouro is a viable lynch candidate, I guess you don't feel that way now? I don't disagree with you on Schmuffin-the-past and if they flip scum I think we should look at Sawrian, but I'm curious to hear more from you on other people.

I said the exact opposite of that. I thought it looked like they were on a team. I brought this up and explained myself a bit ago in this post. My conclusion was that I didn't know whether it indicated they were on a team after all. At the time, I felt that there was something off. The voting patterns didn't make sense. If those two players were both town then they'd both not know each other were town therefore they'd want to lynch each other over themselves. Instead, they were acting kinda counter to that impulse. It felt like they were willing to let themselves get lynched over each other.

My intuition shut this down because I could only imagine the scenario in which they were both scum, and catching two separate scum teams day #2 felt bizarre given how shallow the entire argument for FEP/Kit felt. I don't think I understood the argument against Kit/FEP. A lot of it washed over on me and seemed trivial.

However, like I mentioned in this post:

Originally Posted by Darryl

FEP might have realized they were shooting their defense force in the foot and that things only got more grim if they voted (town) Ouro.

I didn't think that the collusion might just be going one way and that Ouro might have been a useful idiot. That FEP might be sparing Ouro because Ouro was the last person willing to argue FEP out of the hole or possibly to argue themselves INTO the hole instead (but FEP couldn't sell them downhill because then Ouro would sell them downhill).
Darryl
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(08-13-2017, 07:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dr. Worm

When you changed your mind about Muffin, you didn't change your read on Sorian. For Sorian, you saw his early statement on Muffin differently when you thought both were scum, compared to when you had a flaky town read on Muffin - instead of thinking he had a scum reaction to a town player, you thought he was a scum player backing up another scum player.

Oh, yea. Muffin was at the bottom of the waterfall on those reads. The read on Sorian wasn't particularly strong as it was. It was a very loose connection I was making at that time.
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 07:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darryl

The roleblocker is obviously scum because of the virgin flip. There are probably 2 scum left. 2 night actions. One of those had to have been to call for the lynch on Verel. Ouro would have had to have been roleblocked. This basically forces the silencer to be town/neutral for this scenario to make sense unless there are 4 scum or scum can use their night actions as well as call for a lynch.

Can't see any way to spin that stuff into anything tangible other than that a town/neutral player thinks Ouro is scum and wants to shut em up. Also that we might not have any fears of scum messing up our town night actions other than to block them



This is the post I made talking about Ouro/FEP. I think my reasoning was that they were refusing to vote for each other. It isn't a one-sided defense (Ouro vouching for FEP/Kit because they think they're town), they both did it. Now that we know kitfep is scum, it is very bizarre that they wouldn't have tried to lynch Ouro if Ouro was town. They should've acted in self-interest. I don't think my thinking really holds up tho. I got mixed reads re-reading it. At some points, they do seem to be having a back and forth. FEP does kneejerk vote for Ouro even if they immediately withdrew it. FEP might have realized they were shooting their defense force in the foot and that things only got more grim if they voted (town) Ouro. In this scenario though (ouro town), all the scum teammates are MIA and it's very strange so I still lean towards them being scum.

Why does the start of this post very much read like it's a lock in that Ouro is town?

Originally Posted by hey_monkey

I finished my third stream and someone came and trolled my pineapple pizza intolerance. 👀 But I'm back and catching up. I find Kitty's claim very specific and that makes me want to believe it but scum RB staying there for two days seems odd. I do struggle with that. Like it's a good story but there are holes.

But that leaves me, if I put OK aside for a sec, mainly suspecting Schmuffin, being replaced, and Star, who has a new partner coming in. I have some mild possible leans on Sawrian and Natty Sparks but not enough to lynch today. So I'm gonna do MORE rereading and see what is what. Gotta talk to my boo too, who is probably gonna try to rein me in but we all know I can't be contained. I will find the Darryl posts I mentioned earlier too.

To be fair, now that I had time to mull this over at work, the cagey-ness of Ouro's "claim" vs. Kitty's actual claim makes a lot of sense for this to all be a fake claim. They have no way to coordinate, presumably, and Ouro was here by himself way before Kitty showed up. He can't assume that Kitty reads every little detail of the thread so he leaves the actual detailed claim to Kitty while he just drops little bits and pieces. It's almost like a mad-lib where Kitty just had to fill in all the blanks with specifics.

Originally Posted by Dr. Worm

hey Sorian



I reread the context before this post for a few pages a couple of times, and I'm still not totally sure how you reached this conclusion

given that the scenario of a Kitsune/Ouro partnership is looking pretty likely at the moment, could you explain what your thoughts were there again, and what they would be now?

I've read this a couple times too and I actually don't have an answer for you. Judging from the time, I posted this from my phone and it's not reading right to me so I'm not even sure if an important word got corrected somewhere. I know the point FEP was trying to push part is referring to scum never voting to save a partner there but I'm not sure at all what I was saying about Muffin. The shade part against you was from back around where his prod vote to Ouro was, I think because that's when he was talking about you role fishing as well.

As far as now though, meh mostly? I still don't really see the vacant boat as scum. Sam doesn't post a lot but hits all the notes I'd expect from a quiet newbie and my only complaint about Muffins is he keeps trying to push his own votes at day end even when there is no shot at it happening. I'd raise my eye more about day 2 but he did the same when it was a townie getting lynched day 1 so it reads more like he thinks that is a productive way to play.
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 07:59 AM)
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I'll just say this: you cannot be separated from your partner or your replacement's activity. Sure you are a different person but there is inherently something to take into account from previous actions before you subbed in.

That said I didn't really read your post
Ourobolus
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(08-13-2017, 08:00 AM)
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That's what I get for not realizing there was a new page

Was responding to monkey's post
Ourobolus
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(08-13-2017, 08:04 AM)
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Sorian is really not understanding the Ouro/Kitty dichotomy. Two players that vary wildly in play styles. I'm weird and play with some tenuous strategy in mind and kitty shoots from the hip. I look forward to your reactions after the game is over and you can read our chat :P
hey_monkey
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(08-13-2017, 08:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

I'll just say this: you cannot be separated from your partner or your replacement's activity. Sure you are a different person but there is inherently something to take into account from previous actions before you subbed in.

That said I didn't really read your post

Of course. It's all a whole picture. For everyone.

Which makes dissension between partners interesting. Makes me wonder about some of the patterns and arguments.

Sorian: A few games ago I'd have scoffed at kitty making a fake claim and I started to here and then I remembered some of the shit I've seen people make up.
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 08:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

Sorian is really not understanding the Ouro/Kitty dichotomy. Two players that vary wildly in play styles. I'm weird and play with some tenuous strategy in mind and kitty shoots from the hip. I look forward to your reactions after the game is over and you can read our chat :P

But what I proposed is exactly what you just said. You playing with a tenuous strategy (being cagey with a fake claim) and Kitty shooting from the hip (running in and throwing down the claim with no worries in life).
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 08:13 AM)
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Let me tell you about this one time I claimed to be a vig that needed a night phase to charge up before killing but had been getting roleblocked repeatedly messing up the charge->shoot mechanics.

And then how, out of spite, I added said fake role to the next game I designed.
Nomadic Sparks
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(08-13-2017, 08:15 AM)
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what happened??
Darryl
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(08-13-2017, 08:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

Why does the start of this post very much read like it's a lock in that Ouro is town?

That's because I'm trying to read the scenario from a perspective in which Ouro is town to try to see what it looks like and whether it makes sense

Originally Posted by Darryl

Ouro would have had to have been roleblocked.

This is just an assumption. I don't know if Ouro was actually roleblocked. Are you slipping here scum-orian and letting it show that you're living in a reality in which Ouro was factually roleblocked and not just hypothetically roleblocked.

Because if Ouro was scum there is no way they were roleblocked. They'd be roleblocked if they're telling the truth and you're scum
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 08:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

To be fair, now that I had time to mull this over at work, the cagey-ness of Ouro's "claim" vs. Kitty's actual claim makes a lot of sense for this to all be a fake claim. They have no way to coordinate, presumably, and Ouro was here by himself way before Kitty showed up. He can't assume that Kitty reads every little detail of the thread so he leaves the actual detailed claim to Kitty while he just drops little bits and pieces. It's almost like a mad-lib where Kitty just had to fill in all the blanks with specifics.

Originally Posted by Sorian

But what I proposed is exactly what you just said. You playing with a tenuous strategy (being cagey with a fake claim) and Kitty shooting from the hip (running in and throwing down the claim with no worries in life).

That's kinda my point. A fake claim requires some sort of coordination if there is a pair involved, or else we run the risk of contradicting each other. I have my own play style, in that I was vague in trying to 1. gauge reactions and 2. hope that kitty doesn't role claim and we can see how deep this rabbit hole goes. However, I had a hunch he'd provide our role info (which he did), but...eh, no problem there. You're assuming I made a fake claim, which I did not. I just withheld information. Like I have said countless times, Kitty and I have seemingly taken two roleblocks for the team - assuming we have better PRs on our side, then they've been able to operate freely for two nights. Whether they've gotten any info is a different matter.

In my slightly drunken haze, how about this deal?

We lynch someone else tonight. One of three things happens.

1) We successfully send a message and our role is confirmed. Obviously not our alignment, but we can continue to belabor that point and hope that we lynch scum today. This is obviously coming from the perspective that Kitty and I know we are Town - but we are assuming there are two scums remaining, so there's still time to find them, and (if we are scum) there's at least one team remaining that is not myself and Kitty)
2) We are roleblocked tonight. Ok, also good. Some other town PR hopefully gets a chance to act freely tonight
3) We are NK'd. Great, you get our flip and that assuages your doubts. Hopefully scum didn't RB a PR.

That's 3 scenarios that provide some information.
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 08:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darryl

That's because I'm trying to read the scenario from a perspective in which Ouro is town to try to see what it looks like and whether it makes sense



This is just an assumption. I don't know if Ouro was actually roleblocked. Are you slipping here scum-orian and letting it show that you're living in a reality in which Ouro was factually roleblocked and not just hypothetically roleblocked.

Because if Ouro was scum there is no way they were roleblocked. They'd be roleblocked if they're telling the truth and you're scum

No, I'm living in a reality where the RB can still be town aligned. That said, I'm confused why you quoted yourself and asked me why I'm slipping.

Originally Posted by Ourobolus

That's kinda my point. A fake claim requires some sort of coordination if there is a pair involved, or else we run the risk of contradicting each other. I have my own play style, in that I was vague in trying to 1. gauge reactions and 2. hope that kitty doesn't role claim and we can see how deep this rabbit hole goes. However, I had a hunch he'd provide our role info (which he did), but...eh, no problem there. You're assuming I made a fake claim, which I did not. I just withheld information. Like I have said countless times, Kitty and I have seemingly taken two roleblocks for the team - assuming we have better PRs on our side, then they've been able to operate freely for two nights. Whether they've gotten any info is a different matter.

In my slightly drunken haze, how about this deal?

We lynch someone else tonight. One of three things happens.

1) We successfully send a message and our role is confirmed. Obviously not our alignment, but we can continue to belabor that point and hope that we lynch scum today. This is obviously coming from the perspective that Kitty and I know we are Town - but we are assuming there are two scums remaining, so there's still time to find them, and (if we are scum) there's at least one team remaining that is not myself and Kitty)
2) We are roleblocked tonight. Ok, also good. Some other town PR hopefully gets a chance to act freely tonight
3) We are NK'd. Great, you get our flip and that assuages your doubts. Hopefully scum didn't RB a PR.

That's 3 scenarios that provide some information.

What about the scenarios where you are lying and either A) get roleblocked again, B) use your power for the first time and it's not mailman or C) use your power again after lying about this all to begin with?
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 08:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

No, I'm living in a reality where the RB can still be town aligned. That said, I'm confused why you quoted yourself and asked me why I'm slipping.



What about the scenarios where you are lying and either A) get roleblocked again, B) use your power for the first time and it's not mailman or C) use your power again after lying about this all to begin with?

A) Addressed in scenario 2
B) We've already used our power twice.
C) What power would that be that you've experienced?
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 08:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

A) Addressed in scenario 2
B) We've already used our power twice.
C) What power would that be that you've experienced?

Scenario 2 has that pretty "but I'm town!" paint on it but sure, letting other PRs work.

You haven't used your power though, if you've been roleblocked twice then you haven't used your power, that's how a roleblock works.

I don't need to see a power for it to have happened, you could be an information gathering role for all we know.
Darryl
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(08-13-2017, 08:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

No, I'm living in a reality where theRB can still be town aligned. That said, I'm confused why you quoted yourself and asked me why I'm slipping.

Come on man. You asked me why that paragraph made it sound like Ouro was town. I explained that it was because you read it wrong. It was a hypothetical in which Ouro was town. Obviously Ouro sounds like town in a hypothetical where he is town. I said you're slipping because someone might not have noticed this if they're scum and living in said hypothetical situation. I quoted myself because that is a thing people do when they're asked to explain themselves
Ourobolus
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(08-13-2017, 08:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

Scenario 2 has that pretty "but I'm town!" paint on it but sure, letting other PRs work.

You haven't used your power though, if you've been roleblocked twice then you haven't used your power, that's how a roleblock works.

I don't need to see a power for it to have happened, you could be an information gathering role for all we know.

We have attempted to use it, sure. But please, enlighten me on the litany of roles that we could possibly be, consider we know there is a scum roleblocker and most likely 1 other scum left, who has to perform the kill. A roleblocker is a pretty high-priority scum role, so what are we, then, and if we are being roleblocked, are you saying there is also a town roleblocker that is blocking us and thus...we...didn't perform the kill last night, or what?

Your argument has crossed the border into non-nonsensical town
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 08:56 AM)
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stupid drunk double negative
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 09:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

We have attempted to use it, sure. But please, enlighten me on the litany of roles that we could possibly be, consider we know there is a scum roleblocker and most likely 1 other scum left, who has to perform the kill. A roleblocker is a pretty high-priority scum role, so what are we, then, and if we are being roleblocked, are you saying there is also a town roleblocker that is blocking us and thus...we...didn't perform the kill last night, or what?

Your argument has crossed the border into non-nonsensical town

Role cop, watcher, tracker off the top of my head. The silencer too if you aren't actually being role blocked.

Assuming you are being role blocked, sure, you obviously didn't go for the kill last night or your teammate could be more equipped for that anyway if they are a ninja or strongman. Hell, you could even be a strongman if we really want to make this complicated.
Ourobolus
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(08-13-2017, 09:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

Role cop, watcher, tracker off the top of my head. The silencer too if you aren't actually being role blocked.

Assuming you are being role blocked, sure, you obviously didn't go for the kill last night or your teammate could be more equipped for that anyway if they are a ninja or strongman. Hell, you could even be a strongman if we really want to make this complicated.

Oh you're doing a fine job of making this way more complicated than it needs to be
Ourobolus
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(08-13-2017, 09:41 AM)
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Cause, you know, a strongman would go through a roleblock, and I would at least hope you respect me enough to not pull an Archer/Princess and try to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result (Protip: I posited to kitty that we were being roleblocked on D2)

A scum Watcher is OP (a Watcher in general is OP) and most likely isn't in play. A role cop..meh. If they haven't used it by now then I'd expect the roleblocker to be more useful.
Sorian
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(08-13-2017, 09:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

Cause, you know, a strongman would go through a roleblock, and I would at least hope you respect me enough to not pull an Archer/Princess and try to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result (Protip: I posited to kitty that we were being roleblocked on D2)

A scum Watcher is OP (a Watcher in general is OP) and most likely isn't in play. A role cop..meh. If they haven't used it by now then I'd expect the roleblocker to be more useful.

I mean, if your only choice is to try the same thing over and over again then why wouldn't you even if it'll fail? That's not really the point here though. The scum kill has obviously proceeded without any issue so you're left with whatever your power is. Do I think there is a watcher in this game? No because Burb is as conservative as you but the absence of it isn't what matters. What matters is that there are plenty of roles that scum Ouro can be that would have no visible effect on the game.

Your entire post is also still built on the assumptions that you are town and a roleblocker is scum. I understand that regardless of your alignement you have to play with the first assumption in mind but the second !) doesn't need to be true and B) is not an either/or type deal. You can still be town while the roleblocker is town. You can be town while they are scum. You can be scum while they are town. The only one that doesn't work is scum/scum. Also, you can just never have been roleblocked from the get go. The assumption you are pushing narrows the game down a lot which is to your advantage right now.

But you know what, I'm going to sleep and I've been drinking a bit and I'm actually getting weird gut feelings that maybe I'm wrong here. So I'm going to

UNVOTE

and think on this until tomorrow. You've spent all day so far on your back foot, so give me something to read. I understand going all in on a read and being wrong and I can see that as a possibility here but then who is the scum in your world? They have to have some type of interaction with the lynch yesterday. Where was it?
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 10:21 AM)
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In the morning. The beer is not helping me want to go through the thread right now
Ourobolus
Keeper of the Book
(08-13-2017, 10:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sorian

Your entire post is also still built on the assumptions that you are town and a roleblocker is scum. I understand that regardless of your alignement you have to play with the first assumption in mind but the second !) doesn't need to be true and B) is not an either/or type deal.

But before I go,

1) No shit. Of course I am operating on the assumption that I am Town.
2) You keep pushing the narrative that the roleblocker is scum, but that simply is totally not the likely case. Stop it, because we know there are virgins and the most likely (and one I'd be willing to be $$ on) scenario is that there is a hooker, which is a scum role.
Burbeting
Member
(08-13-2017, 11:05 AM)
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ourobolus & kingkitty (6)
sorian
franconp
royal_flush
nin1000
natiko
dr. worm
sawneeks

sawneeks & sorian (1)
ourobolus

muffin1611 & samuraischnecke (0)
muffin1611
franconp
Member
(08-13-2017, 12:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ourobolus

3) We are NK'd. Great, you get our flip and that assuages your doubts. Hopefully scum didn't RB a PR.

There is no NK tonight. So this won't happen.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
(08-13-2017, 02:20 PM)
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DAY 3 CURRENT VOTE TALLY:

Ourobolus & kingkitty (6)
Sorian 2588 2930
franconp 2589
Royal_Flush 2592
nin1000 2595
Natiko 2599
Dr. Worm 2600
Sawneeks 2878

Sawneeks & Sorian (1)
Ourobolus 2597

Muffin1611 & Samuraischnecke (0): Muffin1611 2743 2753

No active vote for Day 3: CrimsonFist, CzarTim, Darryl, hey_monkey, Karkador, kingkitty, Muffin1611 (has previously voted), Nomadic Sparks, Samuraischnecke, Sophia, Sorian (has previously voted), StarSketch, Trigger, Ty4on, Xbro

Day 3 Postcount: CrimsonFist 14, CzarTim 0, Darryl 16, Dr. Worm 29, franconp 30, hey_monkey 23, Karkador 0, kingkitty 6, Muffin1611 8, Natiko 26, nin1000 4, Nomadic Sparks 1, Ourobolus 105, Royal_Flush 4, Samuraischnecke 2, Sawneeks 7, Sophia 10, Sorian 32, StarSketch 5, Trigger 0, Ty4on 21, Xbro 4


Day 3 ends:

Automated vote tally here

12 votes for majority
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 03:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by hey_monkey

Nope, never been scum. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I would play that way. Because who knows, right? I'd have scum chat. But if my pard didn't really have suspicioun (and he didn't, just a few mentions), my gut tells me I'd try to lie a little lower and I had a good excuse to do so since I streamed for nine hours today.

Or more likely you're quick to pick up what the best approach would be and are doing your best to sell the idea that you're just the same as your normal town self, to the point that you immediately went to that well for your boat's defense. You didn't really make much attempt to defend Royal's play outright because A) as scum you know it's a losing battle and B) as scum you don't want to call more attention to it than it already has. You instead go "he was alone, oops, but hey look at normal town me here being normal town please ignore all else town town town".

Originally Posted by Ourobolus

In my slightly drunken haze, how about this deal?

We lynch someone else tonight. One of three things happens.

1) We successfully send a message and our role is confirmed. Obviously not our alignment, but we can continue to belabor that point and hope that we lynch scum today. This is obviously coming from the perspective that Kitty and I know we are Town - but we are assuming there are two scums remaining, so there's still time to find them, and (if we are scum) there's at least one team remaining that is not myself and Kitty)
2) We are roleblocked tonight. Ok, also good. Some other town PR hopefully gets a chance to act freely tonight
3) We are NK'd. Great, you get our flip and that assuages your doubts. Hopefully scum didn't RB a PR.

That's 3 scenarios that provide some information.

There's not even a way to guarantee your role being confirmed, for all I know you'd just have your scummate say they received a message. They only way I could know for sure is to receive it myself but then everyone else would be in that dillemma instead.

Plus in the world where you're town there's no reason to expect that the results would be any different. You'd just be roleblocked again barring us switching to exactly a theoretical scum roleblocker for the lynch today.

For the sake of argument though let's say we do lynch someone else today. Name someone else that's going to give us as much information with their lynch regardless of alignment. I'm struggling to come up with someone. The easy go to here for you is "well I'm town so if you lynch scum that will reveal better info" but realistically we won't know that would be the result of switching off of you at all.
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 03:32 PM)
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The aforementioned interaction I liked with Ouro and FEP:

Originally Posted by Ourobolus

Right now I'm not really thinking I'm going to put anyone into the "solidly Town" category, but for the moment I feel good about:

11. [m] Verelios & [f] WhereAreMahDragonz
2. [m] TheExodu5 & [m] Fireblend

The ones I zero opinion on so far are:

15. [-] Darryl & [m] nin1000
14. [f] StarSketch & [m] SexyFish
13. [m] Orb & [m] TheWorthyEdge
7. [m] Xbro & [m] Karkador

Everyone else is either leans scum or town.

Originally Posted by flatearthpandas

Why are you posting the opposite of a reads list?

Originally Posted by Ourobolus

It's a reads list, it's just not comprehensive.

Free your mind, bro

Originally Posted by flatearthpandas

Let me try.

Here's my null reads:

14. [f] StarSketch & [m] SexyFish
13. [m] Orb & [m] TheWorthyEdge

Everyone else I have reads on, thanks for asking.
I'm participating!

Vote: Ourobolus

Which looks like an opportunistic vote on a townie to look productive. He moves the vote to someone else on the very same page.
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 03:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ty4on

The aforementioned interaction I liked with Ouro and FEP:

Which looks like an opportunistic vote on a townie to look productive. He moves the vote to someone else on the very same page.

Do you feel the same way about his follow-up vote on Star then? Why or why not?
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 03:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Natiko

Do you feel the same way about his follow-up vote on Star then? Why or why not?

More the lead up and read than the vote in the Ouro case.

That Star vote is a prod so it doesn't tell me much.
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ty4on

More the lead up and read than the vote in the Ouro case.

That Star vote is a prod so it doesn't tell me much.

I ask because I get sort of a different vibe. It feels more like wanting to throw shade without committing to it, hence the quick change to a prod vote. In that case it's not inherently indicative of alignment as he could want to throw shade and vacate for scum or town just depending on his agenda.
Ty4on
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(08-13-2017, 04:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Natiko

I ask because I get sort of a different vibe. It feels more like wanting to throw shade without committing to it, hence the quick change to a prod vote. In that case it's not inherently indicative of alignment as he could want to throw shade and vacate for scum or town just depending on his agenda.

Maybe

It just makes more sense for me to be more committed when bussing. Initially the read seems committing too until nobody follows him.
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by flatearthpandas

Starsketch
But also saying nothing is no good. What say you, star?

This is a really easy vote to jump out of should Star face some heat later in the game.

I don't really think they're on the same team, but this vote (he fixed it next post) isn't what makes me think that. For me the townie thing Star has done is thinking criticism of kitsune was directed towards her. It was weird, but would be *especially* weird if kitsune were her scummate too.
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ty4on

Maybe

It just makes more sense for me to be more committed when bussing. Initially the read seems committing too until nobody follows him.

It was early D1, I don't think scum would look to do actual bussing there. More just throw some shade and then quietly move elsewhere.
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Natiko

It was early D1, I don't think scum would look to do actual bussing there. More just throw some shade and then quietly move elsewhere.

It went further than I think distancing would. If a wagon forms he now has to deal with that.
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ty4on

This is a really easy vote to jump out of should Star face some heat later in the game.

I don't really think they're on the same team, but this vote (he fixed it next post) isn't what makes me think that. For me the townie thing Star has done is thinking criticism of kitsune was directed towards her. It was weird, but would be *especially* weird if kitsune were her scummate too.

So do you think a scum Star would suddenly pay far more attention to the game than usual despite knowing that would be a pretty obvious 'tell'?

Originally Posted by Ty4on

It went further than I think distancing would. If a wagon forms he now has to deal with that.

Ehhhh, I feel like that's really over inflating that exchange. It was brief, and immediately after the vote it was dropped by both sides. That doesn't read to me like a strongly pushed argument or something that was really meant to gain steam.

Who do you think the likely candidates are for remaining scum?
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by hey_monkey

I will preface this by saying I would otherwise vote Ouro today but since there's no NK we could vote Schmuffin and save a whole replacement team coming in. I also want to say that I'm only iffy about scum Schmuffin so am fully aware it may not be the best play but what the hell, will float it anyway.

The last posts from monkey have felt like they had an agenda behind them which I don't like. She seems a bit too eager to broaden our lynchpool.

Because I don't know how active I'll be after I soon take over the wheel I'll plop down a scummy vote.
VOTE: hey_monkey
Ty4on
Member
(08-13-2017, 04:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Natiko

So do you think a scum Star would suddenly pay far more attention to the game than usual despite knowing that would be a pretty obvious 'tell'?

Ehhhh, I feel like that's really over inflating that exchange. It was brief, and immediately after the vote it was dropped by both sides. That doesn't read to me like a strongly pushed argument or something that was really meant to gain steam.

Who do you think the likely candidates are for remaining scum?

Star:
Yes, kinda. She'd be more afraid to mess up and generally more attentive, but more importantly I think she'd know more about the case against kitsune since her teammate is on the line.

Ouro:
The way he pushed it makes it look like he's eager to make something out of it. "Look at what a good townie I'm being and finding scum for us!"
For a scummate I think he'd he'd be more careful. Call out in the chat instead and maybe comment on it if I townie comments first. It just seems a bit heavy-handed.

Scumteams wise the one thing the Ouro lynch really has going for it if I don't see that many other potential scum.
Natiko
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(08-13-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ty4on

Star:
Yes, kinda. She'd be more afraid to mess up and generally more attentive, but more importantly I think she'd know more about the case against kitsune since her teammate is on the line.

Ouro:
The way he pushed it makes it look like he's eager to make something out of it. "Look at what a good townie I'm being and finding scum for us!"
For a scummate I think he'd he'd be more careful. Call out in the chat instead and maybe comment on it if I townie comments first. It just seems a bit heavy-handed.

Scumteams wise the one thing the Ouro lynch really has going for it if I don't see that many other potential scum.

Star:
Or to play Devil's Advocate she would be more nervous and make even more bizarre mistakes than she normally does. Perhaps being antsy and on edge would lead to things like getting defensive over posts not even directed at her.

Ouro:
I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. While I can see your opinion I just really don't see that as a strong push since he dropped it so fast. He wasn't afraid to take shots at town WAMD and that was brought up multiple times even after he unvoted. That just contrasts to me with his vote on Ouro and then quietly moving off of it and not revisiting at any point.

Scum:
You surely have more scum leans beyond Royal/monkey. Any others?
hey_monkey
Member
(08-13-2017, 05:24 PM)
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Oh lord, I think I stepped in it with my whole "but would I play" thing. All I'm really saying is there was pretty much no traction on Flush until today and now people are bringing him up - but only I am trying to widen the lynchpool? Okay.

Natiko, you want me to defend my partner's play? Defend your partner's. I mean, you were here for it so you at least know his motivations, don't you? I wasn't. But from what I can tell, Flush, like many other people, were trying to get a handle on a game that hasn't made a ton of sense. He made some prods. He was wrong about some things. He's not as active as I tend to be and he had no one to talk to in the boat so until I came in I didn't know his motivations for everything. We noticed a lot of the same stuff - the weird arguments, the back and forths, some voting things, all stuff I've mentioned. We read some of it differently and talked it out. But there's nothing really to defend because he didn't make big moves. Did you have something in mind?

My GAFia approach is always transparency. I like to put my thought process on display. It always gets twisted - it's scummy, it's wishy washy, it's an agenda - but it's always the same.

Anyway, enough defense. As for my bringing up the late Schmuffin - yes, I find their play a little scummy and a full replacement team there feels like a reset. I thought it was worth floating to see if anyone else felt that way because with a whole new team it may take us a couple days to figure if they're scum or not. Obviously Darryl did; he pushed it. If no one else, no big deal.

And what's wrong with widening the lynchpool in general? Wasn't there discussion earlier in the thread on d1 and d2 about having more than one lynch train? Unless Ouro and kitty give us analysis of their thoughts after the fepsune flip, what else are we going to get from them? More on that in a bit. I've been thinking a lot about the claim since last night, and Sawneeks' recap post was really helpful.
Natiko
Member
(08-13-2017, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by hey_monkey

Oh lord, I think I stepped in it with my whole "but would I play" thing. All I'm really saying is there was pretty much no traction on Flush until today and now people are bringing him up - but only I am trying to widen the lynchpool? Okay.

Natiko, you want me to defend my partner's play? Defend your partner's. I mean, you were here for it so you at least know his motivations, don't you? I wasn't. But from what I can tell, Flush, like many other people, were trying to get a handle on a game that hasn't made a ton of sense. He made some prods. He was wrong about some things. He's not as active as I tend to be and he had no one to talk to in the boat so until I came in I didn't know his motivations for everything. We noticed a lot of the same stuff - the weird arguments, the back and forths, some voting things, all stuff I've mentioned. We read some of it differently and talked it out. But there's nothing really to defend because he didn't make big moves. Did you have something in mind?

My GAFia approach is always transparency. I like to put my thought process on display. It always gets twisted - it's scummy, it's wishy washy, it's an agenda - but it's always the same.

Anyway, enough defense. As for my bringing up the late Schmuffin - yes, I find their play a little scummy and a full replacement team there feels like a reset. I thought it was worth floating to see if anyone else felt that way because with a whole new team it may take us a couple days to figure if they're scum or not. Obviously Darryl did; he pushed it. If no one else, no big deal.

And what's wrong with widening the lynchpool in general? Wasn't there discussion earlier in the thread on d1 and d2 about having more than one lynch train? Unless Ouro and kitty give us analysis of their thoughts after the fepsune flip, what else are we going to get from them? More on that in a bit. I've been thinking a lot about the claim since last night, and Sawneeks' recap post was really helpful.

I didn't ask for you to defend your boat, you chose to do that of your own accord. It was just noteworthy to me that when you did you made a point to just gloss over his D1 and D2 behavior and tried to pivot the focus towards yourself. Taking shots at my partner really helped drive your point home though, A+ work.

Considering I think Ouro is scum we're not going to get much from them but posts that after they flip we'll look at and go "would they or would they not say this about a teammate" to which we will have no actual answer. By lynching them though we'll get to the bottom of their role, gain info that can lead us to more scum, etc.

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