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Cavaliers have traded Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Žiži, & pick

Tall4Life

Member
Isiah Thomas was 467 out of 468 in defensive plus minus rating. Putting Isiah Thomas on with a team that also has Kyle Korver who was 452 and back up point guard Derrick Rose who was 442. Isiah Thomas is a great offensive player but his defense is so bad it literally makes him a liability.

Hey now, Isiah Thomas was a great defender. Rugged as fuck. Isaiah Thomas, though...
 
I can already hear Boston sports radio prepping the damage control tomorrow on how this is a great deal because now they're finally "cashing in on the assets to win now".

Bill Simmons just one week ago was saying he wouldn't trade IT for Kyrie, and saying that he doesn't think you can win with Kyrie as your best player, and yet now he's busting a nut. A lot (not all, but a lot) of Celts fans have been parading around like their front office's shit doesn't stink and like Danny is outsmarting the entire league and playing 4D chess and when he finally cashes in and makes a move and it's divisive at best. Kyrie might not be able to play defense but the Celts fanbase sure can.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Isiah Thomas was 467 out of 468 in defensive plus minus rating. Putting Isiah Thomas on with a team that also has Kyle Korver who was 452 and back up point guard Derrick Rose who was 442. Isiah Thomas is a great offensive player but his defense is so bad it literally makes him a liability.

Have you ever watched a basketball game?
 

Sanjuro

Member
Bill Simmons just one week ago was saying he wouldn't trade IT for Kyrie, and saying that he doesn't think you can win with Kyrie as your best player, and yet now he's busting a nut. A lot (not all, but a lot) of Celts fans have been parading around like their front office's shit doesn't stink and like Danny is outsmarting the entire league and playing 4D chess and when he finally cashes in and makes a move and it's divisive at best. Kyrie might not be able to play defense but the Celts fanbase sure can.

Again, nobody knows who Bill Simmons is. We are ready to talk more about if Kyrie will anthem hard enough.
 

MBS

Banned
Don't really understand this trade for Boston. Kyrie is an upgrade over Isiah, but it's not a big upgrade. They are very similar ball dominant almost pure scorers that are really bad on defense. And for Boston to make a marginal upgrade at "PG" they give away a good defensive role player in Crowder and a valuable pick for bolstering a Celtics team post-LeBron. I think they are slightly worse this year and their future isn't quite as good. If Jalen Brown becomes the player they hoped he would be could replace Crowder, although he didn't show me a lot last year.

If Brown becomes Crowder soon then this trade isn't as bad.

"Crowder being a defensive cornerstone for the C's" was a stretch especially last season where he was more focused on hitting contested 3's and impossible jumpers from all angles rather than taking care of his matchup in defense. Same goes for Avery who transformed from a defensive juggernaut into a mediocre two-way player, at best.
 
Bill Simmons just one week ago was saying he wouldn't trade IT for Kyrie, and saying that he doesn't think you can win with Kyrie as your best player, and yet now he's busting a nut. A lot (not all, but a lot) of Celts fans have been parading around like their front office's shit doesn't stink and like Danny is outsmarting the entire league and playing 4D chess and when he finally cashes in and makes a move and it's divisive at best. Kyrie might not be able to play defense but the Celts fanbase sure can.

Green teamers are a special breed of delusional. Legit nothing is ever the "wrong" move to make. Danny might as well be Jesus here. Hell Zizic was being touted as the "missing piece" by some crazy ass people.

Felgah and Maz gonna be lit tomorrow with them creaming themselves over Kyrie.
 
As a Cavs fan I'm happy to get a pick out of it.

As a Browns fan I understand Boston wanting a sure thing rather than hoping a pick turns out.
 
Isiah Thomas was 467 out of 468 in defensive plus minus rating. Putting Isiah Thomas on with a team that also has Kyle Korver who was 452 and back up point guard Derrick Rose who was 442. Isiah Thomas is a great offensive player but his defense is so bad it literally makes him a liability.

Of all PGs, Isaiah Thomas was 80 and Kyrie was 69th. Lets not act like there is a world of difference between the two defensively. Considering that, by most metrics, IT was also better and more efficient than Kyrie offensively last year, I'd say it evens out in terms of their value/production. Again, the cost of upgrading is what I take issue with. In a vacuum yes, Kyrie is more valuable than IT for the extra year alone. But they weren't traded one for one.
 

ViciousDS

Banned
Isiah Thomas was 467 out of 468 in defensive plus minus rating. Putting Isiah Thomas on with a team that also has Kyle Korver who was 452 and back up point guard Derrick Rose who was 442. Isiah Thomas is a great offensive player but his defense is so bad it literally makes him a liability.

Of all PG's IT and Kyrie overalls real plus minus is almost EXACTLY the same


Kyrie at 12 and IT at 13

Kyrie ranked not at worse as IT in drpm, but IT is almost a full point ahead in the offense section


hell DRose is only 2 ranks worse than Kyrie in defense rank lol.....thats really sad
 

Sanjuro

Member
Green teamers are a special breed of delusional. Legit nothing is ever the "wrong" move to make. Danny might as well be Jesus here. Hell Zizic was being touted as the "missing piece" by some crazy ass people.

Felgah and Maz gonna be lit tomorrow with them creaming themselves over Kyrie.

Neither one of them know about the Celtics. Felger will like the movie I'm guessing though.
 
Green teamers are a special breed of delusional. Legit nothing is ever the "wrong" move to make. Danny might as well be Jesus here. Hell Zizic was being touted as the "missing piece" by some crazy ass people.

Felgah and Maz gonna be lit tomorrow with them creaming themselves over Kyrie.

It's sort of hilarious how quickly the Nets went from "they're gonna be bad for years and single-handedly rebuild the Celtics! Where's my 2018 mock drafts?!?" to "well now they aren't that bad!"
 
Isiah Thomas was 467 out of 468 in defensive plus minus rating. Putting Isiah Thomas on with a team that also has Kyle Korver who was 452 and back up point guard Derrick Rose who was 442. Isiah Thomas is a great offensive player but his defense is so bad it literally makes him a liability.
This is where I'm at. I don't see IT as the huge plus that everyone is talking about. He's a severe defensive liability IMO. Not saying Kyrie was lockdown, but I see him as the better addition over IT. His defensive presence alone is a huge upgrade of IT. Plus, Kyrie was no joke in the playoffs and especially the finals.
 

Sanjuro

Member
His defensive presence alone is a huge upgrade of IT.

LcGFHKz.gif
 
So that 2018 pick isn't protected right? Nets could get the number 1 pick again and have it go to another playoff team?

Just shut down the Nets already. Or send them to Seattle. I'm desperate for Sonics b-ball again.
 

MBS

Banned
Of all PGs, Isaiah Thomas was 80 and Kyrie was 69th. Lets not act like there is a world of difference between the two defensively. Considering that, by most metrics, IT was also better and more efficient than Kyrie offensively last year, I'd say it evens out in terms of their value/production. Again, the cost of upgrading is what I take issue with. In a vacuum yes, Kyrie is more valuable than IT for the extra year alone. But they weren't traded one for one.

The dip in production on both ends in playoffs is the big problem for Isaiah, he does fine in regular season. Against CLE in ECF he wasn't even trying on defence. We are talking about James Harden-cringeworthy levels of bad defense against Kyrie.
 
This is where I'm at. I don't see IT as the huge plus that everyone is talking about. He's a severe defensive liability IMO. Not saying Kyrie was lockdown, but I see him as the better addition over IT. His defensive presence alone is a huge upgrade of IT. Plus, Kyrie was no joke in the playoffs and especially the finals.

full
@ this entire post. Is basketball really that hard to follow?
 

Tall4Life

Member
It's sort of hilarious how quickly the Nets went from "they're gonna be bad for years and single-handedly rebuild the Celtics! Where's my 2018 mock drafts?!?" to "well now they aren't that bad!"

Don't act like every fanbase isn't this way lol

We want to be optimistic

When we still had the Nets pick I was knowingly deluding myself that the Nets pick will still be the #1 pick because it has to be, they're the Nets
 
Of all PGs, Isaiah Thomas was 80 and Kyrie was 69th. Lets not act like there is a world of difference between the two defensively. Considering that, by most metrics, IT was also better and more efficient than Kyrie offensively last year, I'd say it evens out in terms of their value/production. Again, the cost of upgrading is what I take issue with. In a vacuum yes, Kyrie is more valuable than IT for the extra year alone. But they weren't traded one for one.
I'm legit asking - is it fair to say IT was better than Kyrie when he was the number one Celts option vs Kyrie playing second fiddle to the best player in the league? Doesn't seem like an apt comparison to discuss their stats outside of the role they actually played on two very different setups
 
Maybe I'm not as basketball inclined as you are. You can enlighten me and I'm not joking. I would like to hear what you have to say. Its a discussion.

Nobody is saying IT is a "plus" defensively. He's bad. But so is Kyrie. They are both terrible defenders. Kyrie might be better, but it ain't by much, and it's certainly not a mark you want to be putting in his favor. They are both 2 of the worst PG defenders in the entire league, to the point where people reaching to use defense as a way to defend this trade for Boston is laughable.
 

MacAttack

Member
This trade comes down to the Celtics not wanting to sign IT to a max contract and trying to get something comparable in return before he leaves via free agency.

They overpaid with the draft pick but IT's contract and injury probably gave Cleveland that leverage. With the way IT plays, if he loses a step, his value goes down a ton. For a little guy who takes some big bumps that's a risky max contract.

Jae Crowder is a decent role player but is vastly overrated by many.
 

mjp2417

Banned
Maybe I'm not as basketball inclined as you are. You can enlighten me and I'm not joking. I would like to hear what you have to say. It's a discussion.

Kyrie Irving is a terrible defender. If you trade for Kyrie Irving and your only defense of the trade is "we got better defensively" then you lost the trade.
 
If my post came off as he plays defense, then that was not my intentions. I was simply stating that due to his size, he's more of a presence than IT. He plays defense like his facial expression - sleepy.

Kyrie being bigger is barely a + in his favor really.

His deficiencies were in the top-3 reasons the Warriors just toyed with them for basically the entire series. They ate him up defensively. Metrics might paint him as slightly better but, the difference really isn't all that much in practice.
 
I'm legit asking - is it fair to say IT was better than Kyrie when he was the number one Celts option vs Kyrie playing second fiddle to the best player in the league? Doesn't seem like an apt comparison to discuss their stats outside of the role they actually played on two very different setups

Kyrie wasn't some role player. He took more shots per game last year than LeBron did, and had a higher usage rate. It's disingenuous to just shrug it off and say he was playing "second fiddle" when you look at the actual numbers.
 

Sanjuro

Member
If my post came off as he plays defense, then that was not my intentions. I was simply stating that due to his size, he's more of a presence than IT. He plays defense like his facial expression - sleepy.

No worries. I'm clowning you more because I'm the only Celtics fan here who sported a Dino Radja jersey.

In terms of defensive point guards in the NBA...you're looking at maybe two/three guys. None of them who have been relevant enough to take their team anywhere. Paul will be dead before it matters. Wall might be smart.

Point is, you can have the best PG defender on the planet and it's not going to stop the guys who are going to be in the finals year after year.
 
Kyrie wasn't some role player. He took more shots PG than LeBron did, and had a higher usage rate. It's disingenuous to just shrug it off and say he was playing "second fiddle" when you look at the actual numbers.
Ok, so second fiddle isn't accurate, but what did IT play alongside of that was at all comparable to sharing the load with LeBron James?
 
Kyrie wasn't some role player. He took more shots PG than LeBron did, and had a higher usage rate. It's disingenuous to just shrug it off and say he was playing "second fiddle" when you look at the actual numbers.

People bitch and bitch and bitch about how Bron is "too selfless" until Kyrie's offense comes up then it's "well he's never gotten to be the #1 on a good team!"
 

Chase17

Member
IT pretty effectively managed to carry the C's offense for the team for the last two years. Kind of sad to see that go! Should be fun to watch him with Lebron though.
 
Ok, so second fiddle isn't accurate, but what did IT play alongside of that was at all comparable to sharing the load with LeBron James?

LeBron James is has an incredible offensive basketball IQ and is also incredibly unselfish. You aren't really "sharing the load" playing alongside him. Kyrie's usage/shot/possession numbers are in line with a lot of other guys who are number 1 options on their teams.
 
No worries. I'm clowning you more because I'm the only Celtics fan here who sported a Dino Radja jersey.

In terms of defensive point guards in the NBA...you're looking at maybe two/three guys. None of them who have been relevant enough to take their team anywhere. Paul will be dead before it matters. Wall might be smart.

Point is, you can have the best PG defender on the planet and it's not going to stop the guys who are going to be in the finals year after year.
I'm not offended. It's a forum and I expect a lot of people to have a better grasp of the subjects at hand. There are a lot of smart people in this forum. Whether it's sports, games or politics, I love hearing the responses.
 

MBS

Banned
Kyrie's usage rate and IT's are basically the same, except IT was far more efficient last year.

It's p simple.

It's numbers in the playoffs that matter, if you put it down logistically. IT becomes irrelevant as a presence at the big stage, and as a C's fan it was really painful to watching him struggle as much as he did in the past 3 postseasons when at the same time Kyrie was dropping 40's after 40's. Kyrie is not paid to play defense.
 
Gary Payton in his prime wouldn't be able to do jack shit against the Dubs and their spacing and ability to score.

It's the playoffs that matter, if you put it down logistically. IT becomes irrelevant as a presence at the big stage, and as a C's fan it was really painful to watching him struggle as much as he did in the past 3 postseasons.

A) He was hurt last year in the playoffs B) SSS means absolutely nothing to player value.

Edit to your edit: And yes, he is payed to play defense, it's why when he gets smoked like a warm brisket that you can lambast him for not even putting effort in, at least IT tries to key up.
 

Sanjuro

Member
I'll even do the body language hot take here.

Kyrie was the first option for a Cavs team with LeBron James. Without the latter, he couldn't do a thing, then decided he would cancer his way out so he can be a TRUE* number one. *He was a number one.

IT was the first option for a Celtics team where he was the only option. He came out like a motherfucker saying, "Back up the Brinks". At the same time he made it clear he wanted to play for this team and did puff events playing grab ass with Tom Brady.

I rather have a superior PG with a firecracker up his ass, than a guy who couldn't get the job done, and in all likelihood get eaten alive in this town.

...this is just the bullshit intangible argument and it makes sense.
 
So it basically comes down to this:

Boston didn't want to pay 200mil to IT (rightfully so IMO). Cavs had to trade Kyrie because of the situation going on there.

IT vs Kyrie for both teams. Pros/Cons

Pros: Cleveland gets someone who can actually make plays and set people up instead of having situations where Kyrie pounds the ball and everyone else just watches (except for LeBron), which in turn gives Lebron potential for more rest in-game and on the bench.

Boston gets a dynamic scorer, but doesn't really play off-ball. However, I wonder how coachable Kyrie is with a smart coach like Brad Stevens. If he can change his game so that he can at least play average defense + pass the ball, then this is a major X-factor that could give Boston an insane advantage (still unlikely given Kyrie's ball habits).

Cons: Cleveland is already a garbage team defensively and adding IT whose defensive stats leaves a lot to be desired is going a step backwards on paper. Adding Jae Crowder doesn't really matter considering GSW's personnel and coaching is just that much better than having one good defender.

Boston may have overpaid just to get a guy who's really only good at one thing and not that good in everything else. IT was already a pretty strong offensive player, so the trade seems to be overpaying for essentially a marginal move at the 1.
 
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