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Remembering MGSV and getting sad part XI: audience robbed of revenge

Didn't help that the trailers showed almost every cutscene. GZ shouldn't have been released early and separate, either. Marginal changes, but for me the major errors on the fringes are where its flaws are.

If there was ever I game I could have experienced its entirety differently, it would be going into the 'Final Cut' of MGS V (GZ+TPP) as one single game experience, expecting a 'Peace Walker 2' instead of a MGS 5, and going in blind.

That said, still my second favorite MGS for the awesome PMC/home base setting and unrivaled action-infiltration gameplay, and by far my most played.
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Yup. Probably one of the most polished and well executed games from a purely gameplay and graphics/performance perspective, yet utterly disappointing in actual content and especially plot resolution.

Open world design and mission designs were extremely boring and repetitive. The plot was needlessly convoluted, and incredibly sparse, with large parts feeling totally irrelevant, which was to be expected given Kojimas trajectory but it wasn't even satisfying in the end. The game really felt like it was going to be heavily focused on the horrors of war and the toll it takes on people, namely Big Boss, from the trailers but really failed in that regard and hardly explored it in any meaningful way. Ground Zeroes explored that much more successfully.

Quiet was a total bust and just offensive to any sensibilities, the child soldier angle wasn't developed well at all. Huey was lame to the extreme. Miller and Ocelot were interesting but again not at all well developed as they should have been. Skull Face was a total buffoon and nutter in the end to the point he felt like a joke.

The idea of Venom is pretty great and that journey into madness and truly becoming Big Boss is also great, but the execution was super lackluster as what plot was there and how the gameplay and story were structured just did not provide the support and development it really needed to convey that descent into madness and egomania. Felt like we got the cliff notes version of a first draft, not the full and final script.
 

tookhster

Member
Honestly, it was my biggest gaming disappointment ever. I know people try to forgive the story due to the gameplay, but I didn't even like the gameplay compared to the previous games. To me, I still felt more badass in the older games, especially in MGS4 with Octocamo and stuff like that. The controls felt good, but I didn't really feel like I was playing MGS, it was more like a better version of Splinter Cell or some other TPS.

The open world mission-based structure of the game got old fast, and one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming is when you have to take time to read logs or listen to cassettes to get the story. I'd honestly take the 30 min cutscenes from MGS4 over the barebones story in MGSV anyday. And the twist at the end was like the "fuck you" cherry on the top.

Also, I still can't get over the Keith Sutherland thing. It's bizarre how they hyped him up and he barely spoke, even if it's supposed to be some Kojima troll type of shit.
 
I think it's just shallow at this point to be frustrated by "broken promises."

Like seriously, Kojima fooled people into thinking this game was about "men becoming demons." He does that with every single game he releases. Honestly, what Kojima and his team did with MGSV was a lot more interesting than having yet ANOTHER story of Big Boss turning evil. Everything about Big Boss turning into a bad guy is so heavily implied in the last three games. We don't see a game focused on those details, because they really don't matter.
 

Kazuhira

Member
I have love/hate relationship with this game,i loved every sec of it until the first chapter ended.
I was like,oh god! this is awesome and it's just the first chapter!.............then ch2 happened and everything went to shit -_-
 
I think it's just shallow at this point to be frustrated by "broken promises."

Like seriously, Kojima fooled people into thinking this game was about "men becoming demons." He does that with every single game he releases. Honestly, what Kojima and his team did with MGSV was a lot more interesting than having yet ANOTHER story of Big Boss turning evil. Everything about Big Boss turning into a bad guy is so heavily implied in the last three games. We don't see a game focused on those details, because they really don't matter.

Yep. Contrasting Vwnom against Big Boss (and the player) is a lot more interesting than playing as a Darth Vader massacring children
 
I agree with everything, TC.

MGS:V was both my game of the year 2015, and my most disappointing game of that year.

Definitely one of my most disappointing game of all time, despite loving it so much.
 

JMY86

Member
MGS V had great gameplay but also had the most empty, boring and uninteresting open world I have ever seen. I quickly got annoyed with revisiting the same places over and over and over...
 

Rell

Member
you all know how it goes.

I was always shocked that a series like Metal Gear had the mainstream appeal it did.

The games are so insanely self-indulgent on every level...I seriously don't understand how the general consumer base played along with the joke for this long.

I don't know if the franchise is intentionally subversive or what....I just have a very hard time imagining it resonating with people. The game has had the No More Heroes vibe for like thirty years at this point.

Maybe I'm taking it all the wrong way?


Also: Phantom Pain was great. The whole story was about futility, really driven home with
the hollow revenge against Skullface, the bit at the end with Paz, and somewhat coincidentally the entire game itself.

In real life a lot of people get so caught up in the journey they miss the destination entirely and things just sort of putter out and everyone moves on.

I'm giving the franchise too much credit, but I really do love it. This type of thing absolutely would not fly in any other form of media.
 

Bakercat

Member
A lot of people seem to believe that MGS3 shows Big Boss turning evil or how he turned evil, but I don't really see it. The ending to 3 just feel to ambiguous to say what happened to Big Boss afterwards or how he felt about it all. I think Peace Walker handled it perfectly with him leaving the US and creating a small army in Central America which shows how early his plans for Outer Heaven was. He is still caught up and full of guilt about his actions that he won't let anyone call him Big Boss. By the end of the game we see Big Boss understand why the Boss did what she did, and he rejects her, "laying down her weapon" and sees only war for soldiers in the world. With this he accepts the title Big Boss, lets go of the Boss, (her bandana goes into lake), and he finally sees what he must do with his life. I think this answers all the questions as to who is Big Boss in the earlier games. In my personal opinion, Peace Walker should have been MGS V.
 

TissueBox

Member
Like usual the game is overt in its meta themes so that's another huge takeaway for me, the connections between and allegories of the Venom Snake/Diamond Dogs and Kojima/Konami conundrum.

Think about it, considering the game was probably doomed at some point, Kojima might have pulled off something quite brilliant with the finale's twist and all.

Still a disappointment though yeah. :p
 

Rell

Member
A lot of people seem to believe that MGS3 shows Big Boss turning evil or how he turned evil, but I don't really see it. The ending to 3 just feel to ambiguous to say what happened to Big Boss afterwards or how he felt about it all. I think Peace Walker handled it perfectly with him leaving the US and creating a small army in Central America which shows how early his plans for Outer Heaven was. He is still caught up and full of guilt about his actions that he won't let anyone call him Big Boss. By the end of the game we see Big Boss understand why the Boss did what she did, and he rejects her, "laying down her weapon" and sees only war for soldiers in the world. With this he accepts the title Big Boss, lets go of the Boss, (her bandana goes into lake), and he finally sees what he must do with his life. I think this answers all the questions as to who is Big Boss in the earlier games. In my personal opinion, Peace Walker should have been MGS V.

Peace Walker has been established as a crucial aspect of Metal Gear canon.

Big Boss's gripe was his personal feelings versus his duty. Sort of a Better Call Saul sort of heel turn. He did something he regretted and he was never going to let it happen again.
 
Easily my favourite of the core MGS games, but I've been checked out of caring about the plot for the last decade, and it's been pretty clear that Kojima was too.
 
I'm in the process of replaying Metal Gear specifically to go through V for the first time. I know at least some of the twists in it already, so it's more to just finally see it through.

Threads like this give me real pause as to whether I should even bother. It seems like a...divisive game to say the least.

But I also like 4 the best which seems to be an equally touchy subject, soooooo maybe I'll like V. Other than the broad strokes and the general unhappiness with it here, I'm unsure what V is actually like to play.

the gameplay is the best MGS has ever been. it's still definitely worth playing, especially now that you know ahead of time that the story is sparse. people who got it day one had bigger disappointment because they have higher expectation coming in.
 
I only got as far as the end of Chapter 1. With all the shit people talked about the ending of the game, I got indecisive. I thought to myself: Is this a good satisfying place to stop? Should I just quit now while I'm still feeling positive instead of marching forward toward disappointment? The gameplay was superb but by the end of ch1 I felt like I had pretty much experienced everything it had to offer in that department, and I was told the story wasn't worth it.

I dunno, my dudes. My indecisiveness took long enough that chapter 2 fell into my backlog and I haven't gone back yet. As far as my experience is concerned, the game ends with Big Boss triumphantly receiving Sahelanthropus.

Is it worth it for what's there? I don't know what happens plotwise after chapter 1.
 
MGSV is quite possibly the greatest example of a missed opportunity in the videogame industry. Not a bad or awful game or even disappointing. In fact, it's quite fun to play and has a very fun and interesting gameplay loop. The missed opportunity is the story it could have told with everything that happened between MGSPW and MG1 but it ended up telling a story about... nothing. 50 hours of gameplay and absolutely nothing to show for it.

MGS 1-4 were able to tell an interesting connected story that kept players interested and on their feet, and MGSV managed to just bore to tears during the very occasional story exposition moments that occurred during the game. For a series that is well known for it's gameplay and story, the fact that the story is missing ruins a great chunk of enjoyment one would get from playing the game. It's just a complete missed opportunity in that regard.
 
I dunno. I thought the story was captivating and I didn't really feel like I was cheated out of some unfulfilled promise. Of course I hardly paid any attention to the game before its release. Didn't even watch the trailers since I figured it'd be awesome since it's MGS, so I'd just pick it up when it dropped in price.

Wasn't disappointed. In fact, it ruined the old games for me with its super tight gameplay and addictive weapon upgrade/FOB base building. Played that everyday for a couple months.
 

OBias

Member
I think from MGS4 onward the story is not really worth following anymore.

pJGnUTz.jpg
 
This thread....


The moment I read the op I started listening to Sins of the Father, and from there, down the rabbit hole I went. Ive lost track of time but all I've done since then is listen to various tracks.

This thread played me like a fiddle!
 
I wasn't disappointed by it but I also know how to temper my expectations. After MGS4 and PW there wasn't a reason to expect MGS2 or 3 levels.
 
I only got as far as the end of Chapter 1. With all the shit people talked about the ending of the game, I got indecisive. I thought to myself: Is this a good satisfying place to stop? Should I just quit now while I'm still feeling positive instead of marching forward toward disappointment? The gameplay was superb but by the end of ch1 I felt like I had pretty much experienced everything it had to offer in that department, and I was told the story wasn't worth it.

I dunno, my dudes. My indecisiveness took long enough that chapter 2 fell into my backlog and I haven't gone back yet. As far as my experience is concerned, the game ends with Big Boss triumphantly receiving Sahelanthropus.

Is it worth it for what's there? I don't know what happens plotwise after chapter 1.

The most interesting story stuff is in chapter 2.

The game structure becomes uneven in chapter 2, and that's where the game is most controversial. In chapter 1, you could play the game in a linear fashion going from one mission to the next. Chapter 2 doesn't really have that, when you reach a block in the story, you need to go play side ops or play a remixed mission. That's not to say that chapter 2 doesn't have new missions, the game just pads its length a bit.

Personally, I think the hate for Chapter 2 is way overblown. The actual way the ending is presented to the player is disappointing
(replaying the hospitol was lame)
, but I still found the gameplay totally engaging from start to finish
 
The Big Boss saga was just unnecessary. MGS3 was enough. Peace Walker's story is rather stupid.

MGSV itself has some neat mechanics and ideas wasted on boring level design. The detection system is awful as well, there's little reason to ever be anything but prone/ rolling.
 

Severance

Member
I feel The Phantom Pain's worst offense is the marketing leading up to the game for sure. The trailers set up expectation for one thing, but the game delivered another. As time goes on, I am appreciating the plot more however. Replaying the game helps put it all in perspective. It made me think a lot about how cowardly and hurtful Big Boss is. The one person who is truly robbed of revenge is not us, it is Kaz. Not only does Cipher play Kaz and bring down his dreams, but his comrade and best friend Big Boss does as well. Kaz is so blinded by his desire for revenge that he doesn't see the deception right in front of him. Venom himself is quite the contrast to Big Boss as another poster in this thread mentioned. I think the child soldiers were mainly there to shine light on that. That scene was confusing on my first playthrough, knowing what happens in Metal Gear 2. On my second playthrough, it highlighted the innocence of Venom and subsequently the evil nature of Big Boss. I feel like I could write a lot on what I've come to appreciate about the story, but enough for now. There's a lot of meta storytelling for sure. I think that TPP is a lot like Sons of Liberty. As years go by, people will look back more fondly on TPP as they did Sons of Liberty. And then there will still be those who hate both haha.
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
The "I didn't want to be right about this game before release" game of all time for me. Gods, what I'd give to have been wrong about it.

I still can't bring myself to replay the others.
 
This game is like a distillation of everything metal gear into one magnificent game that honestly I was shocked when people told me it was unfinished because I obssessively looked for tapes, listened to conversations, explored for resources, animals, sneaking in general. Honestly, I put over 300 hours into the game, and most of that was single player, I S ranked every mission because it was fun the more equipment you unlocked, the more you tried different tactics you were always rewarded with a satisfying or surprising reaction.

The CQC is somewhere between MGS3 and 4, with the multi CQC from PW. All of the movement feels like MGS4, with a tinge towards the feel of the older titles. What I mean by this is notice how responsive Big Boss, Solid Snake, Raiden, etc are in each game. The the depth of the mechanics has constantly expanded, and refined, with each entry, MGS1,3, and V are my favorites but I also love MG1 and 2(thanks subsistence for making the better versions of these titles). In this came there is a camo system, there are benefits to using the different camouflages over the Sneaking Suits. If you read their descriptions, you usually get a bonus to your overall camo index depending on the terrain the camo is designed for. In MGSV, there just isn't a lot to indicate this except, how visible you are from Enemies. This reminds me of how the vanilla version of Snake Eater encouraged you to use your binoculars and FPV to observe and scout the area before moving through it. There are also CQC options from prone.

Honestly, if you turn off reflex, it feels exactly like MGS. Also, the expanded AI in TPP over GZ is amazing, and while there were clearly either changes in development or not enough time to implement some things, I feel overall the game is mostly complete from beginning to end, to get to the final episodes all you have to do is play side ops.

Honestly, I was super fucking surprised how much I loved what is essentially a sequel to MGS2 in a spiritual way that also closes the story and plot holes within the greater mythos in a very interesting way that I didn't expect. The way the final cutscene transitions, with the noises from the first MSX game, the background transitions. It all just kind of clicked, listening to the tapes it painted a clearer picture of Big Boss and Zero's private war, as well as the fallout of the events Snake Eater itself. I liked Skullface, I liked the jeep ride. I didn't use quiet much until I could put her cool sneaking suit on because that character is mostly a fan-service, even if her final mission actually had some good writing and voice acting.

Like I said there are things in this game that are just masterpiece level, the gameplay which is a throwback to something that feels like an evolution of the series and not a dumbing down or reduction. I liked MGS4 but it was too complex, and the best element was the full octocamo set, as well as some of the movement options while prone, like playing dead, or hanging off slightly from a ledge to attack someone.The different disarms you can perform. That said MGSV has the same amount of depth, you can switch from shooting to CQC and back to CQC fluidly and believably. There are quite a few different animations for disarming even though they kind of all look similar, especially if you actually watch Venom's hands. It is amazing how much detail they put into the character animation, also the Dive button is the single greatest addition in any stealth game I've ever played, game changer.

MGS4 is a game I enjoyed, but there wasn't enough of the actual gameplay to it, the installation between acts(which was fixed with the trophy patch, they let you install the whole game eliminating the smoke breaks and installs) was not fun after the first time. Some of the game was...very cringeworthy, and I cringed less and found myself more intrigued in TPP than I thought I would. I still kind of love MGS4 just for the absurd ending, where Big Boss kills a 105 or something year old man that is Major fucking Zero(and it looks like him). Like this was insane.

MGO3 is okay, FOB is fun, MGO2 was the far better game and seeing as how that has a revival it makes me yearn to have a PS3 and a copy of MGS4. Since MGO2 gave me more of the gameplay I craved, even though it was different but coming from the fact that I loved MGO1 in subsistence, I was more than happy with it.

The one thing I don't understand is that people say Ocelot is super bland, I felt like in the tapes and cutscenes we do seem him in, he is pretty great. It feels like what I think a middle aged Ocelot would be, kind of this weird bored dude that adores Big Boss and guns. I do feel like he was underused, even though the torture scenes with Huey are absolutely amazing, and really feel like Ocelot's sadistic nature from MGS1 and his canon.

Damn, now I might have to reinstall MGSV again.
 

wbEMX

Member
MGSV E3 2013 trailer is one of the best there is and it was the trailer that really kickstarted my hype and it was because of the tone it promised for PP

That trailer (specifically the red band version) is probably my favorite trailer of all time yet I can't watch it anymore after playing MGS V. It's like a wound that has never completely healed. I loved MGS V but I still hate the fact that it's nowhere near as amazing as promised in terms of story.
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
Kojima was very loud about how happy he was to put story that would have been cutscenes in earlier games into the tapes. He said this multiple times in interviews during production and it raised a lot of red flags for me. I began to worry that we'd seen most of the cutscenes in those trailers. Folks kept telling me there was no way Kojima would do that, that he was simply dialing down the cutscene volume after MGS4. I wanted to believe, but I couldn't shake the feeling, and then I played the prologue and dared to hope, for one night, that all my agonizing worries were in vain.

And then I got to Chapter 1...
 

Mikey Jr.

Member
Great game purely from a gameplay standpoint.

One of the worst mgs games I have ever played. Worse than 2.

I actually loved the opening, and had high hopes.

Then the game promptly shat the bed from there on out.
 
The worst thing about MGSV was it's inability to respect the player's time with excruciatingly frequent helicopter trips that are unskippable (what's the fucking point? Especially when no one's attacking!), researching shit that takes real time hours to complete, and 90% of Chapter 2 was nothing but an escersice in time wasting to bloat the game.

I hated more than than the lack of a proper ending.
 
I agree with a lot of things written here. The only times I think of the game are when someone mentions it, and every time the first thing that comes to my mind is frustration.

It has some phenomenal highs (the gameplay and setting), but there's also so much that's left undone or was mediocre in the first place.

And that's the thing, even the clusterfuck surrounding the game isn't clear cut. Konami handled things awfully and forever tarnished the series, leaving an unfinished game, but there's a lot of terrible stuff that would have been in there anyway, and that's on Kojima. To put it differently, even if this had been finished, I believe it would be a mixed bag.

So yeah, ultimately, I still think it's a great game, but it's biggest achievement was managing to make sure I've completely lost interest in the series.
 

Juicy Bob

Member
It's my least favourite MGS game but still a bloody great game in its own right.

The game actually made me feel like a boss. I loved the sense of building up my own private army.

The sneaking was fantastic. I sometimes just put MGSV back on to just go around capturing outposts. It feels brilliant to play. I just wish there could've been more location variety.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
As everyone said, amazing game from a game mechanics point of view.

Story is nonsense. I guess showing how Big Boss went from Peace Walker to what we see in Metal Gear was too easy, but the "twist" was too extreme. The game could be removed from canon and nothing would change. I don't even care about game stories anyway. Metal Gear was like the last franchise where I actually paid attention and didn't skip literally every story sequence when given the chance, and it's only because of the amount of time I've spent on the series in the past decade or whatever. Makes it worse ;_;

Even from a game mechanics pov though, I don't think the game lends itself well to many playthroughs. Could be wrong but the idea of rebuilding an entire MB again and fultoning everyone isn't appealing.
 
Big Boss at the end of PW was effectively the BB in MG1, it's BB's MG2 characterization that messes with people cause the guy was fucking over the top.

I did really like the idea of using Venom to contrast with BB and show how he's pretty much the Dr.Doom to Venom's Doombot.
 

Jumeira

Banned
The game is pure brilliance when it comes to mechanics, the fact that it has little direction due to the politics is so tragic that I agree with you OP, on normal terms, we should've gotten the greatest game ever made, and playing it you know it was partially that, but there's alot missing and it's absolutely not because the team and Kojima are incapable of providing it, it's like they were stopped and told not to do it. Phantom Pain is real.
 
As everyone said, amazing game from a game mechanics point of view.

Story is nonsense. I guess showing how Big Boss went from Peace Walker to what we see in Metal Gear was too easy, but the "twist" was too extreme. The game could be removed from canon and nothing would change. I don't even care about game stories anyway. Metal Gear was like the last franchise where I actually paid attention and didn't skip literally every story sequence when given the chance, and it's only because of the amount of time I've spent on the series in the past decade or whatever. Makes it worse ;_;

Even from a game mechanics pov though, I don't think the game lends itself well to many playthroughs. Could be wrong but the idea of rebuilding an entire MB again and fultoning everyone isn't appealing.

I think I've played through the entire game 4 times now. I completely disagree that the game isn't replayable.

Although, I am playing the PC version, and the mods in that version allow you to tweak the game in several hundred different ways. However, I never tire of the base building or fultoning. The former is super fast to get by once you know what you're doing, and thr later is just a lot of fun.
 

ActWan

Member
I've learned to appreciate the game a lot more after about a year.
At first I thought it as a disappointment, but then I thought it as something different...and I can accept that.
There have been huge discussions back and forth on the internet about the meaning of it all, the meta narrative, the small unexplained stuff and secrets (which was actually part of Kojima's plan, he talks about wanting this game to spur discussions like the "Is Mewtwo under the truck in Pokemon?" and succeeded wonderfully with the whole subreddit "Never be game over") and I read it all and really got into it, and came to the conclusion that it's really not an easy game to grasp or get into, but when you do go in deep - it's amazing.
 

Javier23

Banned
It's a fantastic videogame and I wouldn't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

The story is rather minimalist and concerned with very tangential details of the MGS mythos, so that's divisive. But in my opinion, the series was so throrougly wrapped up by previous entries that I don't know why people expect that much. It's a post-script to the series.

It's pretty much the opposite of 4, though. Much less story, much more game.
Much has been said about MGSV, but this summarises everything perfectly.

Play the game OP. You won't regret it.
 

Neith

Banned
He completely lost me with MGS 4. I thought it was a decent ending to the franchise that had gone way overboard into the realm of terrible writing starting with 2. 3 was pretty cool for what it was, but 4 just was a royal dipshit show with some of that excruciating writing I had to go through. OMG it still makes me want to break the screen. The love relationship in this game is like one of the worst things I have ever seen written in my life.

It killed any interest I had in 5 whatsoever. I might get around to 5 someday, but I doubt it. I'm so glad he is doing new things.

The one thing that makes me want to play 5 is that people say there is hardly any story. Seriously, maybe I will like it a LOT more than 4 and I can forgive the terrible writing because it isn't stamped on your face as you play the game. I have no idea why anyone wanted more convoluted and absolutely boring as hell stories from these amateurs.

Now MGS 1 is still great. And they should remake the entire thing with the same voices from the original.
 
SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING OF MGSV FOLLOW
DON'T BLAME ME IF YOU CLICK IT AND HAVE IT RUINED FOR YOU YOU MORON

Ahem.

Now that that's out of the way....

So I have some pretty serious problems with the narrative in The Phantom Pain, but the way Big Boss's fall is handled is actually brilliant.

So one of the big themes, if not THE theme, of MGS is the conflict between free will and genetic and environmental influences. Liquid's dominant and recessive genes thing, all the talk about memes in MGS2 and Rising, Ect.

The introduction of Venom and how his story ties into Big Boss's not only serves to fit MGSV into the same "canon" as the rest of the series, but also to hold BB accountable for his actions in this game and every other game in the series.

Venom's existence is, in of itself, a crime against humanity. Big Boss takes one of his most loyal men/women(!), and essentially steals their life. He takes their body, their name, their thoughts and memories, and replaces them with his own. Why? So he can use Venom as a decoy to keep his enemies off his back while he recovers from his injuries in Ground Zeros.

Big Boss condemns someone to a fate arguable worse than death because he is coward.

As if that wasn't enough, the major decisions Venom makes throughout the game echo choices that Big Boss has made or will make. For example, contrast Venom's desire to rescue the child soldiers and give them a life free from war with Big Boss's desire to use them as weapons in MGS2. Venom has (or thinks he has) the same history as Big Boss, the same influences, but he chooses differently regardless.

The same can be said for other parts of the story(Venom's care for his men vs. BB's disregard for them, to name one), and they all emphasize that Big Boss, and Big Boss alone, is responsible for his actions; his fall isn't an inevitable consequence of his past.

So, yeah. Props to anyone who actually read this rambling.

Note: I have not played MGSV.

EDIT: well shit swearing-circle, congrats on not taking ten years to say what I was trying to say

Haha, thanks man. Honestly I think your description is really good. Especially contrasting how the two parallel eachother.
 
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