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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member
Brad Grenz said:
ERP has always been careful to qualify his statements that the major benefits he is seeing from the DME only apply if the 32MBs is actually SRAM. Unfortunately 32MBs of SRAM would take up a massive amount of space on the chip, which is why most of us have assumed we are actually looking at a form of embedded DRAM (which includes the MOSYS 1T-SRAM). Considering our bandwidth numbers for the 32MBs of on die memory can be calculated by simply multiplying the 360's eDRAM 32GBps for 10MB by 3.2 to get 102.4GBps for 32MBs, it is tempting to conclude they have simply scaled the 360's eDRAM up linearly. In that case the DMEs may be both convenient & necessary, but may not provide the more interesting benefits he is speculating about.

Conversely, we have also heard rumors that Durango's APU is very large and suffered some major yield issues. That could mean we are looking at a huge block of actual SRAM.
Click to expand...

If the latter scenario is true and they are using a huge block of SRAM, I wonder why they would actually go that route instead of just getting a beefier GPU.

I can't imagine the performance gains from SRAM overcoming the additional complexity, chip size, and yield issues to make it a more worthwhile investment over just having a larger GPU.
 
AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
James Sawyer Ford said:
If the latter scenario is true and they are using a huge block of SRAM, I wonder why they would actually go that route instead of just getting a beefier GPU.

I can't imagine the performance gains from SRAM overcoming the additional complexity, chip size, and yield issues to make it a more worthwhile investment over just having a larger GPU.
Click to expand...

The eSRAM is to get around the RAM bottleneck, a bigger GPU would just be starved.
 
O

oversitting

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
Smoothness/Judder is relatively noticeable even to the untrained eye.

Why bring up screenshots and youtube of all things? Who's playing screenshots, which can be bullshotted anyway. Who's playing youtube, which I don't even know if it supports 60fps.
Click to expand...
nobody is complaining about 30 fps in the console world.
 
D

deadlast

Member
Hana-Bi said:
Enough to put Kinect 2 in the box. Maybe.
Click to expand...

It just seems that all of this technology that is required to over come issues likely costs more than it's worth. And if next xbox + kinect 2.0 is the same price as the PS4, I may go with the machine that will last longer.
 
B

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
James Sawyer Ford said:
So if it's to get around a RAM bottleneck, why would it suddenly make the Durango GPU more efficient than the Orbis GPU, when Orbis doesn't have that RAM bandwidth bottleneck to begin with.
Click to expand...

It isn't. The rumoured bandwidth of Orbis' ram is greater than the Esram and ddr3 ram combined.
 
R

R10Neymarfan

Member
shinra-bansho said:
Smoothness/Judder is relatively noticeable even to the untrained eye.

Why bring up screenshots and youtube of all things? Who's playing screenshots, which can be bullshotted anyway. Who's playing youtube, which I don't even know if it supports 60fps.
Click to expand...

Youtube only supports up to 30fps except when you lower quality to 240p then short 60fps clips can be used
 
H

Hana-Bi

Member
deadlast said:
It just seems that all of this technology that is required to over come issues likely costs more than it's worth. And if next xbox + kinect 2.0 is the same price as the PS4, I may go with the machine that will last longer.
Click to expand...

Well, I think those technologies will probably have higher development costs but the actual cost per unit would be quite cheaper than with a raw power way.
 
James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member
bobbytkc said:
It isn't. The rumoured bandwidth of Orbis' ram is greater than the Esram and ddr3 ram combined.
Click to expand...

Well, right, but ERP's post seems to suggest that the eSRAM would be useful in more ways than simply adding to the bandwidth of the system, but making the GPU utilization more efficient.

So, my question is --- is that a function of high-bandwidth systems in general (eSRAM, GDDR5, etc), or is it something specific to eSRAM?

To phrase it another way, is the eSRAM solution simply trying to bring the GPU efficiency back up to where it would be if they had gone with GDDR5, or is it somehow increasing the efficiency above and beyond what a similar GPU w/ GDDR5 would perform at?

Hope this isn't too confusing.


oversitting said:
how do you know?
Click to expand...

Know...what?
 
R

Reiko

Banned
James Sawyer Ford said:
So if it's to get around a RAM bottleneck, why would it suddenly make the Durango GPU more efficient than the Orbis GPU, when Orbis doesn't have that RAM bandwidth bottleneck to begin with.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

I think MS is hoping for 100% efficiency with their setup.
 
A

aegies

Member
Durango is using ESRAM, and the efficiency improvements aren't related to that, specifically. It's rooted in extra hardware and modifications to things like how it handles SIMD.
 
James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member
oversitting said:
know if its bottlenecked
Click to expand...

Oh, I don't. I was mostly just speaking relatively -- current bandwidth even with eSRAM is slower than GDDR5.

aegies said:
Durango is using ESRAM, and the efficiency improvements aren't related to that, specifically. It's rooted in extra hardware and modifications to things like how it handles SIMD.
Click to expand...

So if it's not related to eSRAM, doesn't that rule out the Data Move Engines?

So which blocks of hardware are adding the efficiency? Were they shown on the original diagram?
 
B

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
James Sawyer Ford said:
Well, right, but EPR's post seems to suggest that the eSRAM would be useful in more ways than simply adding to the bandwidth of the system, but making the GPU utilization more efficient.

So, my question is --- is that a function of high-bandwidth systems in general (eSRAM, GDDR5, etc), or is it something specific to eSRAM?

To phrase it another way, is the eSRAM solution simply trying to bring the GPU efficiency back up to where it would be if they had gone with GDDR5, or is it somehow increasing the efficiency above and beyond what a similar GPU w/ GDDR5 would perform at?

Hope this isn't too confusing.




Know...what?
Click to expand...

My feeling is that it is there to make Durango's memory structure more efficient than it would be if it were not there, and not that it makes Durango more efficient over the Orbis.
 
A

aegies

Member
James Sawyer Ford said:
Oh, I don't. I was mostly just speaking relatively -- current bandwidth even with eSRAM is slower than GDDR5.



So if it's not related to eSRAM, doesn't that rule out the Data Move Engines?

So which blocks of hardware are adding the efficiency? Were they shown on the original diagram?
Click to expand...

Think real-time asset compression and decompression.

deadlast said:
Hrmmm. Are we sure there are not multiple 32mb esram modules?
Click to expand...

Ha. Yeah. It's the one block.
 
U

USC-fan

Banned
THe one thing that get over looked. Even if the ps4 does have a power advantages, sony is terrible at dev support compare to MS.

MS is a software company and it shows with the dev surveys about next gen console made by ign.

Even if the difference is large on paper it will not mean much until later in the gen.
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
oversitting said:
nobody is complaining about 30 fps in the console world.
Click to expand...
This is a crime. Well... I complain but its more for gains in playability/responsiveness than how it looks even though I think 60fps looks better, too.

30 fps is "good" but not "great" like 60fps. I split my gametime between PC/consoles and going from 60+ to 15-30 on consoles is jarring. I'll take frames over visuals any day. Just me tho.
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
USC-fan said:
THe one thing that get over looked. Even if the ps4 does have a power advantages, sony is terrible at dev support compare to MS.

MS is a software company and it shows with the dev surveys about next gen console made by ign.

Even if the difference is large on paper it will not mean much until later in the gen.
Click to expand...
Well you haven't been paying attention lately, eh? All reports point to Sony having great support and tools as of late - some insiders even to the point of parity.

But... you can continue to believe what you wish, not stopping you.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Jack_AG said:
This is a crime. Well... I complain but its more for gains in playability/responsiveness than how it looks even though I think 60fps looks better, too.

30 fps is "good" but not "great" like 60fps. I split my gametime between PC/consoles and going from 60+ to 15-30 on consoles is jarring. I'll take frames over visuals any day. Just me tho.
Click to expand...

I'm kind of weird in that I love 60fps more for the look of it as opposed to the responsiveness. Obviously I can tell a difference in input lag but for me the look and animation smoothness is what really makes it. 30fps games that target 100ms should be more common on consoles than they are. Those feel significantly more responsive than most 30fps games and devs can still pump the visuals. I'm hoping next gen we see a lot more 100ms 30fps games combined with super high quality, subtle motion blur to emulate the appearance 60fps. I take 60fps wherever I can get it but I know it's not too common in console land.

EDIT: Not trying to say something like the BS "feel of 60fps comments". Just giving my opinion on how a 30fps experience could be improved next gen.
 
R

rdrr gnr

Member
USC-fan said:
THe one thing that get over looked. Even if the ps4 does have a power advantages, sony is terrible at dev support compare to MS.

MS is a software company and it shows with the dev surveys about next gen console made by ign.

Even if the difference is large on paper it will not mean much until later in the gen.
Click to expand...
According to reliable sources, this has not been true for a while. Sony was behind for a decade -- but has now caught up.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
MuseManMike said:
According to reliable sources, this has not been true for a while. Sony was behind for a decade -- but has now caught up.
Click to expand...

"ICE ICE baby" perhaps would be an apt phrase. Still, given MS's decision to pursue a comparatively more customized system, they would have to be on the top of their game right now.
 
AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
James Sawyer Ford said:
So if it's to get around a RAM bottleneck, why would it suddenly make the Durango GPU more efficient than the Orbis GPU, when Orbis doesn't have that RAM bandwidth bottleneck to begin with.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where this stuff is coming from, wishful thinking or real data?

Fafalada said:
Useful yes(and wonderfully old-school) - hardly to do much with efficiency though.
Click to expand...

A dev! Even with compression to get an effective higher bandwidth the data pipeline can still stall, right?
 
Proelite

Proelite

Member
MuseManMike said:
According to reliable sources, this has not been true for a while. Sony was behind for a decade -- but has now caught up.
Click to expand...

Possibly even passed Microsoft.

It's not hard to make better software than Microsoft these days.

Surprisingly Microsoft makes much better hardware and drivers than software.
 
O

onQ123

Member
aegies said:
Think real-time asset compression and decompression.
Click to expand...

It's funny that this would be what's inside of the Xbox 3 because I was thinking of something like that when I 1st read the PS4 leaked specs & seen "HW zlib decompressor" I was thinking it could be used to make the best out of a smaller amount of Ram if the data was compressed then decompressed after it passed through the ram.

it was just a random thought back then but I guess it wasn't as crazy of an idea as I thought it would be.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
i-Lo said:
"ICE ICE baby" perhaps would be an apt phrase. Still, given MS's decision to pursue a comparatively more customized system, they would have to be on the top of their game right now.
Click to expand...

How is it more customized? Seems pretty simple, the same as 360 or more so. If anything isn't Orbis rumored to be more customized with a commute modul and stacked memory?
 
R

rdrr gnr

Member
JohnnySasaki86 said:
How is it more customized? Seems pretty simple, the same as 360 or more so. If anything isn't Orbis rumored to be more customized with a commute model and stacked memory?
Click to expand...
It's all relative. What customized or esoteric means for next-gen is almost unrecognizable from what it meant for this gen. You don't have a multi-billion dollar custom architecture that causes headaches.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
AgentP said:
I'm not sure where this stuff is coming from, wishful thinking or real data?
Click to expand...
From what I understand I think it derives from the assertion that the consoles are essentially equivalent. As the raw peak FLOPS favor Orbis, the difference would presumably close if Durango's is able to reach it's theoretical maximum more than Orbis reaches its theoretical maximum - which would imply a more inefficient Orbis.
 
M

Monumental

Banned
Proelite said:
Possibly even passed Microsoft.

It's not hard to make better software than Microsoft these days.

Surprisingly Microsoft makes much better hardware and drivers than software.
Click to expand...
WTF is this even based on? I know it's trendy to hate on their visual design decisions such as Metro, but their software is some of the best out there. Windows 8 is the fastest and most efficient OS yet and Windows Phone follows a similar philosophy on the mobile end.

And if we're only talking about Developer tools then this post is downright stupid.
 
B

Brad Grenz

Member
shinra-bansho said:
From what I understand I think it derives from the assertion that the consoles are essentially equivalent. As the raw peak FLOPS favor Orbis, the difference would presumably close if Durango's is able to reach it's theoretical maximum more than Orbis reaches its theoretical maximum - which would imply a more inefficient Orbis.
Click to expand...

It's called a fallacy. All we know is that Durango's GPU is more efficient than the 360s, and more efficient than it would be without the DMEs. That does not imply that Orbis is somehow inefficient. For all we know the wizard jizz is just there to bring Durango's efficiency in line with the high bandwidth Orbis design.
 
B

Baconsammy

Banned
Proelite said:
Possibly even passed Microsoft.

It's not hard to make better software than Microsoft these days.

Surprisingly Microsoft makes much better hardware and drivers than software.
Click to expand...

Do you say things like this so we never know if what you're saying is actually true or false? =)

Sony isn't in the same ballpark as Microsoft when it comes to coding. Tools, OSes or apps. Sony has spent nearly this entire generation just trying to get their OS/store etc on MS's level and look at their latest store. It's horrible.
 
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