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PS4 PRO: for best IQ (Native 4k + HDR + 60 HZ + 4:4:4) 2160p-YUV420 or 2160p-RGB?

PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Greetings. Everyone knows that PS4 PRO presents two 2160p option in the Video Output Settings:

hja7O1X.jpg
Click to expand...

I got some explanations from members (that I thank by the way) in another thread: some said that 2160p - YUV 420 is the one to use while most fo them said that that 2160p - RGB.

That is when I got eally really really more confused now after watching the DigitalFoundry video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOJHOyEBVI0&feature=youtu.be
Richard Leadbetter said that 2160p YUV 420 is for old 4K TVs with HDMI 1.4 that don't support 60 HZ while 2160p RGB is for 4K TVs with HDMI 2.0 that don't support HDR!!!

Which is the adequate setting to get the best of IQ with HDR if you have one of the latest TVs like the Samsung KS 8000/ 9000 for example? I really want to know what option should anyone choose with the latest TVs in order to get everything from 60 Hz, 4:4:4 Chroma and HDR on PS4 PRO..

Anyone who has a PS4 PRO can post his comparisons between the two modes and talk about the differences he experienced. I hope this thread will get an official or final reply that may help many who are still wondering and looking for the answer. Thanks.

Chamber said:
It's not that complicated, we just like to talk in circles around here.

HDR TV? YUV420
No HDR? RGB.
Click to expand...
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
iTehDroiD said:
4K and HDR10 is not possible in RGB mode due to hdmi bandwidth limitations.
Click to expand...

Yes. That is what I mean. While YUV 420 is only Chroma 4:2:0 and not Chroma 4:4:4 and HDMI 1.4 according to Digital Foundry. and I thought you needed HDMI 2.0 for native 4K, 60 HZ and HDR.

That is why this is very confusing. It seems there is no mode that enables all features. Then how could they showcase them ?
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
4K60 + 10-bit (which you need for HDR) is not possible using RGB. 4:2:0 is required due to bandwidth limitations.
 
C

Chao

Member
Now that we were finally beginning to understand HDR, and somewhat knew something about 4:4:4, a new confusing tech appears!
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Popsickles said:
Isnt RGB 4:4:4 ??
Click to expand...

DBT85 said:
Yes I believe so. At 60fps anyway.
Click to expand...

According to DigitalFoundry 2160p YUV 420 is for old 4K TVs with HDMI 1.4 that don't support 60 HZ and 420 means Chroma 4:2:0 so no Chroma 4:4:4 and not even Chroma 4:4:0 or 4:2:2.

DBT85 said:
As you can see, you can have 8bit RGB at 4k60, or 8 bit 4:4:4, but at 10 bit RGB and 4:4:4 are limited to 4k30, above that you only have 4:2:0.
Click to expand...

I thought the newest TVs could have 2160p at Chroma 4:4:4 in 60HZ.
 
V

Vuze

Member
Do consoles even output 4:4:4 / RGB for games?

As stated above and multiple times in other threads, 4K60 10bit is only possible with 4:2:0 sampling with the current HDMI spec.
 
M

MIMF

Member
So when using HDR with 4k at 60 hz you cannot get pixels color without compression... interesting to say the least.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
boredandlazy said:
So these HDMI switches/splitters advertising 4K RGB 4:4:4 @ 60Hz are full of it?
Click to expand...
No!

There is real confusion here, I'm seeing.

You *CAN* do 4K RGB @ 60hz. It absolutely works.

...but only at 8-bits per channel. That is 100% fine for all regular content.

HDR, however, uses 10-bit color and you cannot do 4K60 RGB with 10-bit. You have to use chroma subsampling.
 
Å

Åesop

Unconfirmed Member
Sanjay said:
I don't understand any of this.
Click to expand...

No worries guys. There is a console for you, it's called the PS4 Casual ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

@OT: This is all really confusing.. an OT with all the important information and tutorials would be nice :/
 
B

boredandlazy

Member
dark10x said:
No!

There is real confusion here, I'm seeing.

You *CAN* do 4K RGB @ 60hz. It absolutely works.

...but only at 8-bits per channel. That is 100% fine for all regular content.

HDR, however, uses 10-bit color and you cannot do 4K60 RGB with 10-bit. You have to use chroma subsampling.
Click to expand...

This thread is so awesome. I've been looking at HDMI splitters all day thinking I needed one which supported RGB 4:4:4 @ 60Hz for HDR. Now I know I can get a more common one. :)
 
M

MIMF

Member
With this information understood, am I the only one considering now to get now a 4K monitor without HDR for the PS4 pro?

I was waiting for 4K HDR monitors to appear, but this is something very important to maybe consider a as better option 4k 8bits RGB vs 4k 10 bits 4:2:0.
 
A

Angel_DvA

Member
dark10x said:
No!

There is real confusion here, I'm seeing.

You *CAN* do 4K RGB @ 60hz. It absolutely works.

...but only at 8-bits per channel. That is 100% fine for all regular content.

HDR, however, uses 10-bit color and you cannot do 4K60 RGB with 10-bit. You have to use chroma subsampling.
Click to expand...

So lets resume, if I go 4k HDR, I'll take the 2160p YUV settings and if I use my 1080p screen, I'll go 1080p RGB....OR i can choose 2160p RGB and doesn't give a fuck for both of them?
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
MIMF said:
With this information understood, am I the only one considering now to get now a 4K monitor without HDR for the PS4 pro?

I was waiting for 4K HDR monitors to appear, but this is something very important to maybe consider a as better option 4k 8bits RGB vs 4k 10 bits 4:2:0.
Click to expand...
I think if you use the "automatic" setting you'll get RGB for non-HDR content and 420 when it's required. Need to test.
 
W

Wallach

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
It seems the offered modes are very ambiguous and offer only drawbacks one over the other.
Click to expand...

they are ambiguous because explaining the actual dynamics of YUV vs RGB source to a consumer is so impractial as to be a lost cause

at some point HDMI will suck less (or get replaced as primary standard) so this stops mattering
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
la_briola said:
Do you want to use HDR or not? If you don't care about it then you can choose RGB @ 4k.
Click to expand...

So if you want to play games in HDR10, you must use 2160p - YUV 420 (the lowest Chroma) and you can't get 60 FPS in native 4K? What about games like NBA 2K17 which is native 4K @ 60 FPS + HDR? How can we play them with all those features?
 
S

SonicAaron

Member
So the answer is YUV for 4K HDR content then.

Good to know. I'm dreading setting up my PS4 and HDR tv when they come. Too many settings and options. Still figuring out limited / full range hdmi or whatever it was :(
 
M

MIMF

Member
dark10x said:
I think if you use the "automatic" setting you'll get RGB for non-HDR content and 420 when it's required. Need to test.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I was wondering about the option to buy the monitor now as I personally believe the chroma subsampling 4:2:0 is not ideal. I would feel idiot if I wait for the new HDR 4k monitors to appear to end up using non HDR mode to avoid the 4:2:0 compression.

Also funny that now the Xbox Scorpio "uncompressed pixels" statement suddenly makes sense because maybe the Scorpio will feature a HDMI port > 2.0 without this bandwidth compromise for HDR at 4k.
 
A

Alexious

Member
This is super weird. YUV has a loss of quality when compared to RGB, this basically means that the best quality (RGB+HDR) is not achievable....
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Alexious said:
This is super weird. YUV has a loss of quality when compared to RGB, this basically means that the best quality (RGB+HDR) is not achievable....
Click to expand...

This is what I understood too which is a bummer especially when the newest TVs allow Native 4K @ 60 HZs + HDR @ 4:4:4 Chroma. It seems this a problem on PS4 PRO's end. :/
 
S

Smidget

Member
I'll add my confused self to the list lol

Also my TV/monitor (40" 4K) has only one port that does 4:4:4 Chroma/HDR and I'm using that port is my PC connection... I guess I need some sort of switcher that takes the PS4 Pro signal and the PC signal and allows me to switch? And add PSVR into that mix. Switcher between the outputs there somehow.

So many cables.
 
Spanky

Spanky

Neo Member
So to add a further specification to the mix, if we have an 8-Bit 4K TV that does support HDR (albeit not proper HDR10) - would it still be better to use the YUV setting, or the RGB?
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
boredandlazy said:
Well based on what I read here it's the HDMI spec, nothing specifically to do with the PS4 Pro.
Click to expand...

But look: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks9000

Supported Resolutions:

1080p @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 : Yes
1080p @ 120Hz Show : No
4k @ 30Hz @ 4:4:4 : Yes
4k @ 60Hz Show : Yes
4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 : Yes
Click to expand...

Input Lag :

1080p @ 60Hz : 20.5 ms
1080p With Interpolation : 110.6 ms
1080p @ 60Hz Outside Game Mode : 124.1 ms
1080p @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 : 37.1 ms
4k @ 60Hz : 20.6 ms
4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 : 37.1 ms
4k @ 60Hz + HDR : 20.6 ms
4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR : 37.1 ms
Click to expand...

Those features combiend are possible with the newest TVs. I don't see why the PS4 PRO doesn't allow that. This is still HDMI 2.0 for the TVs. When HDMI 2.1 comes out which will allow HDR with Dynamic Metadata, those TVs or the newer TVs will be able to run it too. PS4 PRO doesn't allow even a basic version of all of those , let alone the upcoming features.
 
V

Vuze

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
So if you want to play games in HDR10, you must use 2160p - YUV 420 (the lowest Chroma) and you can't get 60 FPS in native 4K? What about games like NBA 2K17 which is native 4K @ 60 FPS + HDR? How can we play them with all those features?
Click to expand...
You can get 4K @ 60hz with HDR with 4:2:0 chroma.
MIMF said:
Yes, but I was wondering about the option to buy the monitor now as I personally believe the chroma subsampling 4:2:0 is not ideal. I would feel idiot if I wait for the new HDR 4k monitors to appear to end up using non HDR mode to avoid the 4:2:0 compression.

Also funny that now the Xbox Scorpio "uncompressed pixels" statement suddenly makes sense because maybe the Scorpio will feature a HDMI port > 2.0 without this bandwidth compromise for HDR at 4k.
Click to expand...
Was thinking the same. But I don't expect it tbh. And then again, you would need yet another new TV to take advantage of it lmao
PLASTICA-MAN said:
This is what I understood too which is a bummer especially when the newest TVs allow Native 4K @ 60 HZs + HDR @ 4:4:4 Chroma. It seems this a problem on PS4 PRO's end. :/
Click to expand...
No, it's an HDMI spec limitation. Even Sony magic sauce can't circumvent that kind of limitation:p
 
W

Wallach

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
But look: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks9000





Those features combiend are possible with the newest TVs. I don't see why the PS4 PRO doesn't allow that. This is still HDMI 2.0 for the TVs. When HDMI 2.1 comes out which will allow HDR with Dynamic Metadata, those TVs or the newer TVs will be able to run it too. PS4 PRO doesn't allow even a basic version of all of those , let alone the upcoming features.
Click to expand...

It drops to 8-bit color when it runs in that mode. Which is exactly what will happen on your Pro if you set it to RGB and play HDR content.
 
B

boredandlazy

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
But look: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks9000





Those features combiend are possible with the newest TVs. I don't see why the PS4 PRO doesn't allow that. This is still HDMI 2.0 for the TVs. When HDMI 2.1 comes out which will allow HDR with Dynamic Metadata, those TVs or the newer TVs will be able to run it too. PS4 PRO doesn't allow even a basic version of all of those , let alone the upcoming features.
Click to expand...

Ah OK, but take into account that HDR is 10bit colour, and HDMI only supports 8bit colour in RGB at 4K 60Hz.

Does the PS4 Pro disable the HDR setting at RGB 4:4:4?
 
I

iTehDroiD

Neo Member
Alexious said:
This is super weird. YUV has a loss of quality when compared to RGB, this basically means that the best quality (RGB+HDR) is not achievable....
Click to expand...

YUV itself does not have a loss of qualitiy. You can compute the YUV values from RGB and vice versa. Chroma subsampling is a method of compression where you compress the chroma (color value) information without messing with the luma value (brighness) of a pixel. This can easily be done in YUV since the Y contains the brightness information. This way you just compress UV and don't touch the Y value.

Technically you could convert a RGB signal to a YUV signal, do your chroma subsampling stuff and then convert it back to RGB. You would have a subsampled RGB signal then. But this would be pointless since you can just send the YUV signal to the TV.

And by the way the YUV color space was created in order to maintain compatibility with black and white TV's back in the day. BW TV's just look at the Y value and display a black and white picture while color TV's take all 3 values and create a colored image.
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Vuze said:
You can get 4K @ 60hz with HDR with 4:2:0 chroma.

Was thinking the same. But I don't expect it tbh. And then again, you would need yet another new TV to take advantage of it lmao

No, it's an HDMI spec limitation. Even Sony magic sauce can't circumvent that kind of limitation:p
Click to expand...

Wallach said:
It drops to 8-bit color when it runs in that mode. Which is exactly what will happen on your Pro if you set it to RGB and play HDR content.
Click to expand...


You mean: 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR drops to HDR 8 instead of HDR10 and the only to get 4k @ 60Hz + HDR10 is 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:2:0 + HDR10 through 2160p - YUV 420?

So it means that even the latest TVS don't allow 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR10 and we should wait for newer TVs to get such configuration and then we can use 2160p - RGB?
 
W

Wallach

Member
The problem is literally HDMI itself. The current standard of HDMI simply does not have the bandwidth to handle a 4k 60hz 4:4:4 10-bit signal. The TV could display it just fine if HDMI was not fucking it up.
 
I

iTehDroiD

Neo Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
You mean: 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR drops to HDR 8 instead of HDR10 and the only to get 4k @ 60Hz + HDR10 is 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:2:0 + HDR10 through 2160p - YUV 420?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct!

PLASTICA-MAN said:
So it means that even the latest TVS don't allow 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR10 and we should wait for newer TVs to get such configuration and then we can use 2160p - RGB?
Click to expand...

Since this is a problem with hdmi you need to wait for an HDMI update. On my Samsung I might be able to just replace the connector box but I guess the PS4 Pro HDMI ouput is limited to HDMI 2.0 -> HDR10 and 4:2:0
 
D

d9b

Banned
dark10x said:
I think if you use the "automatic" setting you'll get RGB for non-HDR content and 420 when it's required. Need to test.
Click to expand...

That sounds like ideal solution. Please let us know how the test goes. Thanks in advance ;)


By the way, this topic... This is me right now:
672.png
 
V

ViciousDS

Banned
MIMF said:
Yes, but I was wondering about the option to buy the monitor now as I personally believe the chroma subsampling 4:2:0 is not ideal. I would feel idiot if I wait for the new HDR 4k monitors to appear to end up using non HDR mode to avoid the 4:2:0 compression.

Also funny that now the Xbox Scorpio "uncompressed pixels" statement suddenly makes sense because maybe the Scorpio will feature a HDMI port > 2.0 without this bandwidth compromise for HDR at 4k.
Click to expand...


They would probably use display port to avoid issues like bandwidth correct? Well PC cards would
 
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