Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Media Molecule. And as far as individuals go, Keiichiro Toyama (Silent Hill, Siren) and Keiji Inafune (Mega Man) worked on prominent Sony-published Vita games.
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PlayStation Boss Sees Limited Potential for Handheld Gaming
- Thread starter fluffydelusions
- Start date
Media Molecule. And as far as individuals go, Keiichiro Toyama (Silent Hill, Siren) and Keiji Inafune (Mega Man) worked on prominent Sony-published Vita games.
Toadthemushroom
Member
He's not wrong when he calls the Switch a different approach.
By handheld market he's referring to traditional handhelds like the 3DS or even the Vita - these devices were traditionally survived by unique libraries of games.
The handheld market has been in decline (not withstanding a small bump in 3DS hardware sales thanks to renewed Pokémon fever last year) all generation. Publishers who would traditionally dedicate resources and money towards handheld-only games now develop mobile games instead.
By handheld market he's referring to traditional handhelds like the 3DS or even the Vita - these devices were traditionally survived by unique libraries of games.
The handheld market has been in decline (not withstanding a small bump in 3DS hardware sales thanks to renewed Pokémon fever last year) all generation. Publishers who would traditionally dedicate resources and money towards handheld-only games now develop mobile games instead.
Toadthemushroom
Member
It's all relative though. The market hadn't changed back in 2004, and when it did change it was because of the DS. The PSP wasn't transformative as a portable media device as Sony would have hoped - iPhone and iPod Touch ended up eating its lunch, particularly outside of Japan and Asia.
DS was transformative, though it too ended up feeling the sting of the iPhone by the end of the decade.
While I wouldn't call the PSP a failure I wouldn't hesitate to say that it absolutely fell short of Sony's own internal expectations, coming from the 150m selling PS2. Especially when DS and Wii ended up having a combined install base of 250m in generation 7.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Different eras. The PSP sold 80m less than the DS. You can't compare the pre-smartphone world to now.
after the vita's failure i'm not surprised this is sony's thoughts. and in the strictest sense, he's not wrong. the traditional handheld market is in decline and has been for a while with mobile phones replacing them.
switch however is neither traditional handheld nor a traditional home console, it's something new. nobody can really say if there's limited potential in that idea until we see how well the switch does in the long term.
switch however is neither traditional handheld nor a traditional home console, it's something new. nobody can really say if there's limited potential in that idea until we see how well the switch does in the long term.
I hope this ends Vitabros foolish fantasy of another Sony handheld.
Sorry bros, but trust me it's for the best, you would have ended suffering for the lack of Sony support again, Sony doesn't deserve your money and love, if you want a new generation of handheld buy a Switch or a GPD Win(the current 1 or the upcoming 2 in 2018)
Sorry bros, but trust me it's for the best, you would have ended suffering for the lack of Sony support again, Sony doesn't deserve your money and love, if you want a new generation of handheld buy a Switch or a GPD Win(the current 1 or the upcoming 2 in 2018)
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
How is Sony viewing this? Looking at Vita and saying the global demand isn't there would be a mistake.
A hybrid PS4, albeit a less powerful form of the main console, might do well for them. But it's probably not worth chasing just yet.
A hybrid PS4, albeit a less powerful form of the main console, might do well for them. But it's probably not worth chasing just yet.
Bloomberg using VGC is baffling.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-27-sony-admits-first-party-lineup-a-little-sparse/
Andrew House declaring PlayStation Vita a legacy platform in early 2015 was its tomb stone.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-27-sony-admits-first-party-lineup-a-little-sparse/
The last time Sony gave official shipment data for PSP (I'm talking financial data, not some vague PR statement), its LTD was about 76M.
PSP ended up around 80M units.
If 3DS meet Nintendo forecast this fiscal year, its LTD is going to be 72M as March 2018.
So 3DS final LTD will be close but not so sure to pass PSP LTD.
why?
This is self contradictory. If it's less powerful than the original system then it's not any type of PS4, it would be a different platform altogether.
If Sony built a hybrid system today then it would not be compatible with existing PS4 software and require a bespoke library. Therefore it wouldn't really fair any better or worse than a dedicated handheld and it's success would ultimately boil down to how well supported it is (which, after the Vita, I wouldn't really count on).
In order to build a hybrid PS4, compatible with existing PS4 software, then they would need to miniaturise, more or less, the entire PS4 architecture as it is right now into a portable form factor (That means 8 jaguar cores @ 1.6GHz, 1152:72:32 GCN ALUs:TUs:ROPs @ 800Mhz and 8GB of RAM @ 176GB/s). Simply put that is not going to be possible anytime soon. The PS4 slim is already on the current gen 16nm node and it consumes something like 70w under load (not to mention the size and weight). By the time it is possible, we'll be well into the PS5 generation (if not PS6 generation) already, thus defeating the purpose of the device in the first place and you'd be sacrificing a lot of performance per watt to get there.
So true.
Many don't realize that PlayStation Vita is going to be the first Sony console for which Sony won't reveal a close to final total sell-in data.
PSP was ridden by piracy, same for DS however PSP SW/HW tie ratio isn't far off that of other Nintendo handheld consoles except DS which was a "sales-monster".
Handheld consoles have historically, lower tie ratio than home consoles.
Here a few attach rate for handhelds for which is known hardware and software LTD.
Game Boy: 4.22 (final)
WonderSwan: 2.86 (final)
Game Boy Advance: 4.63 (final)
Nintendo DS: 6.16 (as March 2016, close to final)
PlayStation Portable: 4.38 (as March 2012)
Nintendo 3DS: 4.98 (as March 2017)
It was over as soon as games like Disgaea and Gust games started being announced for Switch. If a PSP3 existed they wouldn't be bothering with a Nintendo system.
Honestly I think Sony should concentrate on making a decent dedicated remote play device, Switch sized, and work on significantly improving remote play.
It'll never be perfect but would be a way of plugging the gap for those who want to play PS4 games on the go, without dragging down console performance in the future just for the sake of a hybrid model
It'll never be perfect but would be a way of plugging the gap for those who want to play PS4 games on the go, without dragging down console performance in the future just for the sake of a hybrid model
Toadthemushroom
Member
I would welcome it if done well and if it had full support for PS Now as well.
One of the things I liked a lot about PS Now was being able to play PS3 and PS4 games away from the TV. It was still in-home entertainment but it was an improvement.
Fbh
Member
Nah. At this point a handheld would only be worth it for Sony if it had the same power as their home console and they can run the same games. And that's not going to happen anytime soon.
By the time you can make a portable Ps4 at a reasonable price with reasonable battery life we will already be in the Ps5 gen.
Their only option would be to make the Ps5 only ve a slight upgrade from the Ps4 in order to turn it into a hybrid but I think that a regular generational upgrade with a normal home console model will bring them more success.
That's not how it works. A "1.3TF PS4" would just break all the games. You can't magically scale down games that were never meant to be scaled. You'd have to patch (or hack) every game individually to maintain compatibility, which is something that's never going to happen on a wide scale. Also a "1.3TF PS4" is still way too power hungry for a portable device in the here and now. We'll be waiting for years before that's possible.
PS4 is 1.2TF are you talking about the Pro?
ArkhamFantasy
Member
PS4 is 1.8, Xbox One is 1.2, Xbox One S is 1.3
Elaugaufein
Member
Sony does pretty decent Android phones too, so they don't really have a lot of incentive to try a different compete with the mobile space if they think it's going to be overly difficult, it makes more sense for them to embrace the mobile paradigm.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Lower or equal TFs or not, a PS4 portable would still break all the games unless there's a magical 10W x86 AMD APU that would fit in a 6" tablet form factor, along with (at least) 500GB of flash storage, and it'd have enough architectural similarities to retain compatibility with every PS4 game. But then what happens with PS4 media? They come on discs. It'd have to be digital only, which means hefty downloads for *all* games rather than just a few. PS4 just isn't built in such a way where Sony can just add portability.
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It's clear that the ForwardWorks production initiative was designed to be Sony's play on the "portable" space. Given how the Everybody's Golf PS4 game debuted to very good sales in Japan and Asia, weeks after the mobile game launched, I'd say it's working.
Thank you. I knew that. Almost 4 am here.
Yes, I see your point.
Sony put many of their biggest IPs and developed several new IPs for it. Sony's support for Vita was fine, Vita just wasn't what the markets wanted. Any more support would have taken a lot away from PS4, which already struggled with getting Sony content during its first couple of years. This idea that Sony didn't support Vita well is dumb. Sony only dropped support because no amount of Killzones, Uncharteds, Wipeouts, Tearaways, Soul Sacrifices, Gravity Rushes and such did anything to help it sell any better (outside Japan).
As with Switch & Nintendo, it's much better to just focus all efforts on one single platform instead of dividing resources at this day & age when even handheld games are HD level endeavours with bigger & bigger teams & longer development times required
SinCityAssassin
Member
I mean he DID say it'd be a bombshell
Super Metal Dave 64:
That dude is a clown.
Eh what?
Switch doesn't exist in a vacuum. It has fierce competition on the portability side from smartphone and tablet gaming, now we even have Apple signing iOS exclusive games. And it still has competition from PS4/Xbox from the console side.
And that aside they still have to pull people away from social apps and services like Netflix, and convince people to invest in their platform in the first place. So just because there is no other dedicated handheld gaming device doesn't mean Nintendo can become complacent in this day and age.
Goalus
Member
Given Sony's first-party output this gen, I don't think they could support another system, and major third-party support for the Vita dried up quickly. I don't see Sony taking the hybrid route either so PS5 will likely just be a continuation of the status quo (not a bad thing).
SinCityAssassin
Member
Well the exclusivity is timed, just like Mario Run was.
But yes, the Switch doesn't exist by itself. Just because it's not directly competing with either side of the competition head on doesn't mean they still aren't competing.
Toni
Member
This is what I believe they're going to do next gen to maximize profits and get ahead.
A 6/8 teraflops PS5 hybrid might change the game with PlayStation branding.
A strictly portable platform is something that I don't even think Nintendo will do again seeing as they've seen and tasted success with the hybrid model ($$$) and it helps their internal teams as well since they aren't splitting resources across multiple platforms.
I also don't see Sony ever going the hybrid route as they need power an it's one of the selling point for their system. Trying to get equal power in a hybrid console would cost way too much for consumers and if they lowered the power to go the hybrid route they would be gifting Microsoft with the "most powerful console" angle for the duration of their choice.
I also don't see Sony ever going the hybrid route as they need power an it's one of the selling point for their system. Trying to get equal power in a hybrid console would cost way too much for consumers and if they lowered the power to go the hybrid route they would be gifting Microsoft with the "most powerful console" angle for the duration of their choice.
Donniewahlberg
Banned
Kind of sad to read, for myself at least. Quite aside from his comments on Nintendo, just applied to Sony, it's a shame he doesn't see a future in handheld gaming. Not even considering what it could have been, the vita has been a pretty awesome little device that has easily paid for itself in enjoyment over the years. I would buy a successor in a blink, even if it was just a basic step up in spec. I don't really blame them nor am I surprised, Playstation has a good thing going on but being selfish, it's a comedown to read.
Those things aren't a direct competition to what the Switch offers. And I'm more so talking about Japan. The 3DS and Vita are on their way out so that will just pave the way for the Switch to dominate. The 3DS did really well despite having like 6-7 different gaming devices to compete with. This time around the Switch will have less than half of that to go up against. Sony is the only legit competitor for Nintendo. It they aren't even gonna try then Nintendo will run away with it. I wouldn't be surprised if Switch ends up as best selling gaming hardware of all time in Japan.
Toni
Member
Exclusive handheld gaming is a dying format. There is no real benefit of being in it as smartphone gaming comtinues to cannibilise it.
Hybrids is where its at for consoles.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Sony putting out a handheld would have very little impact on Switch sales.
And i dont know why you dont consider mobile a direct competitor, its directly responsible for shrinking the handheld market from 225 million handhelds with the DS and PSP to about 80 million handhelds for 3DS/Vita.
Donniewahlberg
Banned
Of course, you're right, and I did write in my post that I completely understand why so I'm not sure where the miscommunication has came in. The main thrust of my post is just that it makes me a little sad, business realities and all Hah. Smartphone gaming may cannibilise etc and all the business reasons but just as a fan, I've enjoyed the psp and the vita. I still really like to game via handheld, and its something I'll miss as an offering from Sony. I don't really anticipate their smartphone games to fill that void, or their phones as a platform for some of the stuff we've saw on psp/vita.
Sony have made two attempts at a handheld. Neither have been a runaway success, and the second was less successful than the first. Given Nintendo's cornering of the dedicated handheld market, and smartphones owning the rest, seems like there's very little opportunity for them
But this time around Nintendo doesn't even have to share the market with anyone. Its all theirs. Also mobile isn't doing anything to hurt Switch sales when Switch has Monster Hunter and Pokemon games. Along with many other big first party console and handheld Nintendo stuff. They'll get a lot of third party stuff too because Sony doesn't want to compete in the handheld market. In the next few years the Switch will be a must have gaming device in Japan because there won't be anything else to buy. Its very good for Nintendo and I'm happy for them. But lack of competition could turn out to be a bad thing.
Well, traditional handheld gaming has fully transitioned to mobile. We're talking about, puzzle games, 2D platformers, turn based RPG's, that kind of stuff. It's not by chance that Nintendo has decided to launch the switch with a full blown Zelda game, a game that just can't be done on a phone. And looking at the rest of the lineup, ARMS, Splatoon and soon coming Mario Odyssey are all games that distance themselves from the typical handheld lineup. Even 3rd parties are coming at the switch from the same angle. This is definitely not a follow up to the DS/3DS. You won't find Brain Training, Nintendogs, Laytons, 2D Marios etc... headlining on this console.
PuppetSlave
Member
Like other have mentioned, the big reason PSP was considered an failure was not because of the HW sales, as I recall the software attachment rate was the measure which was used when judging the PSP lack of success.
They tightened that up with the VITA but that went as it went. Hard to see Sony wanting to throw more money after those attempts.
They tightened that up with the VITA but that went as it went. Hard to see Sony wanting to throw more money after those attempts.
2D Mario games sell exceptionally well on Nintendo's home consoles, we're definitely going to get a 2D Mario on Switch.
What are you talking about. PS4 will still get games in Japan. If mobile doesn't hurt sales then why did the dedicated handheld market shrink by over 50%. Even Nintendo had to merge their two devices due to the shrinking dedicated market.
Granted a handheld version of a game is always going to have lower performance than a console or PC equivalent version of the game I feel like there are certain games that benefit from being handheld.
Visual novels and puzzle games like Picross I think are overall better experiences on a handheld. Animal Crossing felt much better on a handheld. Sometimes I think that the intimate nature of a handheld trumps better performance.
Super Metal Dave 64:
Didnt he buy like 10 PSPs and like 5 PS Vitas??
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I don't think he'll see a ps5 hybrid, as it woudl ether require mobile tech to make some huge leaps in terms of power/energy usage, or Sony woudl have to be ok with a weaker system overall.
Nintendo gets away with it because we buy their stuff for their IP, not really for how it looks. The Wii proved hardware doesn't matter for them, as did the Gameboy back in the day.
Sony though, people expect the shiny shiny visuals, so they will go for biggest bang for the buck. That's going to exclude most mobile tech, forcing them to desktop or laptop tech nowadays. Easier heat management and no concerns about power usage.
The vita was a nice piece of kit honestly, it was just crippled by some terrible management decisions, like the memory cards and lack of first party effort.
Nintendo gets away with it because we buy their stuff for their IP, not really for how it looks. The Wii proved hardware doesn't matter for them, as did the Gameboy back in the day.
Sony though, people expect the shiny shiny visuals, so they will go for biggest bang for the buck. That's going to exclude most mobile tech, forcing them to desktop or laptop tech nowadays. Easier heat management and no concerns about power usage.
The vita was a nice piece of kit honestly, it was just crippled by some terrible management decisions, like the memory cards and lack of first party effort.