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Monocle
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Samurai G0SU

I almost fell asleep twice

Must be the movie's fault. Definitely not yours.
WadiumArcadium
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:49 AM)

Originally Posted by MosquitoSmasher

I still don't fully get the colonel's drive though. It's not the apes that are to blame, it's the fucking humans with their experimenting.

It was already established in Dawn that a lot of humans blamed the apes for the spread of the disease, despite the fact it was man-made. With the evolution of the disease robbing humans of their speech and the apes having grown in intelligence since the outbreak, the hatred for the apes is probably even more widespread at the start of War.

Plus, as the Colonel says in the film he believes the apes will eventually become the dominant species and he's not too keen on that prospect.
Firemind
Member
(07-17-2017, 11:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

If he had killed Ceasar the apes would have rebelled and the wall wouldn't get done on time.

Nah the timeline goes like this: Caesar gets captured when he notices the crucified apes are from his camp. He wakes up ALONE so that the colonel can have a word with him privately and THEN he is thrown into the prison with the rest of the apes.

Face it, it's dumb and makes no sense.
sasliquid
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:24 PM)
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The film also has lots of strange parallels with Logan road movie going north, mostly silent girl character, old protag from established franchise dies a hero, themes of the cycle of violence, racial tensions, except I preferred this because Apes and other reasons I feel I have to digest more first
ZackieChan
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:33 PM)
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"Plot holes"
Contrivances and convenient things happening aren't "plot holes"
WadiumArcadium
Member
(07-17-2017, 04:00 PM)
Someone may have posted this already but it's the first I've heard of it. A reference to Malcolm was cut from the film.

Reeves told the Happy Sad Confused podcast about a scene cut from the script which revealed what happened to Malcolm:

"Yeah, they were, actually, specifically Jason’s character was, and it was a disturbing discovery. The Colonel (Woody Harrelson) had revealed some information about a man who’d come to him when he first got to the city and impressed upon him how important it was to find Caesar and to tell him that he needed to create peace with this man. That this Ape was not just an Ape but was a great leader, and he thought this guy was crazy. And now he (Colonel), in the scene with Caesar, says that he now sees what he meant, and Caesar says, “Well, what happened to him?” And The Colonel said, “I killed him.” Caesar is perplexed and asks why, and The Colonel says, “His ideas were very dangerous because the ideas were like a virus and they could spread to others, and right now this is a fight for humanity.” So that’s what happened."

MMarston
Was getting caught part of your plan?
(07-17-2017, 04:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by WadiumArcadium

Someone may have posted this already but it's the first I've heard of it. A reference to Malcolm was cut from the film.

Well now that's just mean.
Timeaisis
(07-17-2017, 04:05 PM)
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I do agree there definitely felt like some "conveniences" happened for the sake of the plot...but that is basically every movie ever. For me, at least, I was able to suspend that disbelief to enjoy the movie, but I can see where others had issues.

My only really big complaint is that I really wished there were more fleshed out human characters. Dawn, in comparison, had this great dichotomy between Apes and Humans, and it feels like War is Apes vs the Colonel (along with some other humans, that get no development or screentime).
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Firemind

Nah the timeline goes like this: Caesar gets captured when he notices the crucified apes are from his camp. He wakes up ALONE so that the colonel can have a word with him privately and THEN he is thrown into the prison with the rest of the apes.

Face it, it's dumb and makes no sense.

Whats so dumb about what you said?
WadiumArcadium
Member
(07-17-2017, 04:12 PM)

Originally Posted by MMarston

Well now that's just mean.

I liked Malcolm so I'm quite glad they left it out. It would have made it even more bleak.
broncobuster
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Timeaisis

I do agree there definitely felt like some "conveniences" happened for the sake of the plot...but that is basically every movie ever. For me, at least, I was able to suspend that disbelief to enjoy the movie, but I can see where others had issues.

My only really big complaint is that I really wished there were more fleshed out human characters. Dawn, in comparison, had this great dichotomy between Apes and Humans, and it feels like War is Apes vs the Colonel (along with some other humans, that get no development or screentime).

I saw that as intentional if you chart human versus ape characters across the trilogy. Rise was weighted towards humans. Dawn struck a balance between the two. War is weighted towards the apes.

That shot of Caesar looking at the troops before the flood, I thought it was interesting how they were all wearing masks and faceless.
Inferno313
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:15 PM)
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Some of the hot takes in this thread make my head hurt.

I loved this film. It's my favorite film of the summer, my favorite film in the trilogy, and my favorite blockbuster since Fury Road.

It's so refreshing to have a summer blockbuster built on excellent filmmaking and storytelling, first and foremost. The measured, subdued pace is absolutely a breath of fresh air in a summer dominated by fast-paced spectacle, though a lot of those films have been very good too, but this really lets the story and characters breathe. I loved that this was the first film in the series to really give no bones about having a human lead like the first two, and really just accepts that this is Ceaser's story, and the story of the apes.

It's The Searchers mixed with The Great Escape mixed with Watership Down. It's a tremendous piece of filmmaking with the best motion-captured performances I've ever seen. Serkis is the master of this stuff, but his work in this film is his strongest work yet. He's giving a haunted, angry, nuanced performance of a leader blinded by his own hate and revenge but still trying to do the best for his people, and his remaining family.

I loved that the film ended with a breakout sequence as it's climax. It's a rare and underutilized type of action sequence nowadays, so watching a really well-constructed one was an absolute treat. I also loved the way the film subverted it's own marketing, and really it's own title, when you learn that the "War for the Planet of the Apes" is not a war between Man and Ape but between Man and Man, with the Apes left to reap the most consequences. It really speaks to the way that the marginalized outsiders are often the ones to get the shortest end of the stick when war breaks out, and is a fantastic extrapolation of the horrors that man puts animals through even today.

It's also so fun to see this world start to further take shape into the world of Planet of the Apes. There's some really fun world-building here.
Chasm Skulker
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:29 PM)
I liked the film but thought it all kind of came loose towards the end. The soldiers at the Colonel's camp have to be some of the worst prison guards in history. I also found the inclusion of this human vs human element to be somewhat contrived. Because the Colonel isn't wrong, humans will be outnumbered by apes and its difficult to believe that would go well for us. I'm actually surprised how little cruelty you saw the soldiers give out, I'd have thought they would be in full extermination mode, but then I guess you can only go so far with the concept and a 12A certificate
Inferno313
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chasm Skulker

I liked the film but thought it all kind of came loose towards the end. The soldiers at the Colonel's camp have to be some of the worst prison guards in history. I also found the inclusion of this human vs human element to be somewhat contrived. Because the Colonel isn't wrong, humans will be outnumbered by apes and its difficult to believe that would go well for us. I'm actually surprised how little cruelty you saw the soldiers give out, I'd have thought they would be in full extermination mode, but then I guess you can only go so far with the concept and a 12A certificate

Man. We must've seen different movies. The whipping scenes were some of the harshest shit I've seen in a PG-13 film since Casino Royale.
Penguin
(07-17-2017, 04:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by WadiumArcadium

Someone may have posted this already but it's the first I've heard of it. A reference to Malcolm was cut from the film.

I was wondering what happened, but glad it was cut even if it makes you think
SG-17
Member
(07-17-2017, 04:53 PM)
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Next movie is a straight remake of POTA?
Anton Sugar
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(07-17-2017, 04:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by SG-17

Next movie is a straight remake of POTA?

Given that they've pretty cleanly ended Caesar's story, it is *maybe* a logical time for the story to shift to focus on a human, perhaps after some time has passed (I can't remember how long has passed since the shuttle launched in Rise). That would make it easy for them to establish some new apes, put old familiars into elder roles (Rocket, Maurice), establish some rules in the new society, etc.

Though, I admit, I WOULD like to see more about how they got from this point, to the clothes-wearing, full-speech apes we get in POTA. Or they could just stick with the apes and do POTA from the ape POV, since there really is no crazy "twist" to reveal, like in the original. At least not for the audience.
BoogieWoogie
Member
(07-17-2017, 04:59 PM)
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I thought this was good but what the hell is with the "BEST MOVIE OF THE YEAR" reviews. It isn't by a country mile.
Inferno313
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by BoogieWoogie

I thought this was good but what the hell is with the "BEST MOVIE OF THE YEAR" reviews. It isn't by a country mile.

Opinions. How do they work?

I'm not sure I could call it my favorite film of the year, but it's certainly up there. Easily the best blockbuster of the year.
Timeaisis
(07-17-2017, 08:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by broncobuster

I saw that as intentional if you chart human versus ape characters across the trilogy. Rise was weighted towards humans. Dawn struck a balance between the two. War is weighted towards the apes.

That shot of Caesar looking at the troops before the flood, I thought it was interesting how they were all wearing masks and faceless.

Oh, that's a very interesting way of looking at it. Cool observation.

Speaking of the army, was I the only one that was half-expecting the faceless human army to take off their masks and all be Apes under there?
Lan Dong Mik
And why would I want them?
(07-17-2017, 09:01 PM)
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Saw this yesterday and was absolutely blown away. I walked out of the theatre thinking that was one of the best movies I have ever seen. I still feel that way. An absolute Masterpiece. I haven't been that emotional during a movie in a long fucking time man. 10/10
Pai Pai Master
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Timeaisis

Oh, that's a very interesting way of looking at it. Cool observation.

Speaking of the army, was I the only one that was half-expecting the faceless human army to take off their masks and all be Apes under there?

Lol I was thinking about how mad I'd be if that happened.

Also not enough Bad Ape love in this thread.
HiiiLife
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:38 PM)
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Enjoyed this more than spider man and baby driver. Great movie and easily one of my favorite trilogies.
Tookay
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:23 PM)
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This was definitely a step down from the second one. Have a hard time saying whether I liked it or not. I suppose, technically, it is a well-made movie, but it had a lot of problems.

The biggest issue is that it just sort of meanders for most of the runtime. I normally like when a big blockbuster slows down and gives its characters time to breathe, but with War, that time wasn't used very effectively. Why did such a simple plot with so few actual characters warrant a runtime this long and still have so many contrivances? Why didn't the Colonel kill Caesar the moment he was captured, when that was what he wanted to do in the first place? Why are the prison guards so terrible?

Not just that, but what was with the first act consisting of Caesar leaving his tribe for a revenge tour, if only for him to end up captured and reunited with the tribe (who had somehow already been captured before him)? It just felt roundabout and redundant.

In terms of character arcs, I didn't gain any insight into the characters beyond what I already knew from Dawn: Caesar is a good leader who is patient and respectful towards his people but also has a dark side that he has to control (just like a human), Maurice is a cool bro, etc.

Finally, I understand that the humans have had a decreasing presence with each subsequent movie - I imagine that's intentional - but the lack of significant human characters really hurt this one, particularly in giving it some kind of tension/antagonistic force. They're basically just faceless (incompetent) mooks, with the Colonel being a crazy person. It doesn't exactly make for a compelling intellectual/philosophical battle.

I respect Reeves for making a movie that didn't adhere to the usual rules. Just wish I liked it more.
Firemind
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

Whats so dumb about what you said?

It doesn't work because anyone with a brain could deduce that reuniting Caesar with his tribe would cause an uprising. The colonel even interrogated him and knows he's intelligent and wants to kill him because of what happened to his wife and son! The colonel should have killed him on the spot or put him in an isolated cell at the very least.

Then there's the whole virus thing the colonel is deathly afraid of, so why even bring in apes at all? He isn't a scientist and seems to be slightly unhinged as well, so it's hard to believe he wouldn't be paranoid about apes being carriers, especially after what happened to his son. There are a lot of conveniences for the sake of character development and yet it's still plodding. It doesn't work in my opinion.
Anton Sugar
Member
(07-17-2017, 11:28 PM)
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It seemed pretty clear to me that the other captives somewhat shunned Caesar at first. Lake even tells him something like, "Don't worry, they're just shook up".

Doesn't the Colonel underestimate him a bit, too? I seem to recall him saying something about he didn't believe the stories or what he had heard about him, but now that he met him, he understands.

I think the Colonel's actions/motivations could have been clearer, but it's nothing that broke the movie for me. It's all still fairly understandable.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
(07-18-2017, 12:20 AM)

Originally Posted by Firemind

It doesn't work because anyone with a brain could deduce that reuniting Caesar with his tribe would cause an uprising. The colonel even interrogated him and knows he's intelligent and wants to kill him because of what happened to his wife and son! The colonel should have killed him on the spot or put him in an isolated cell at the very least.

Then there's the whole virus thing the colonel is deathly afraid of, so why even bring in apes at all? He isn't a scientist and seems to be slightly unhinged as well, so it's hard to believe he wouldn't be paranoid about apes being carriers, especially after what happened to his son. There are a lot of conveniences for the sake of character development and yet it's still plodding. It doesn't work in my opinion.

The colonel wanted Cesar to feel defeated. He knew his followers were losing faith in him and he wanted to shove it in his face. His plan was to kill them all anyway so why not treat him like shit for a little while?

As for the virus, I'm pretty sure you can't get it from apes. You get it from other humans infected with the virus.
JDHarbs
Member
(07-18-2017, 01:18 AM)
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I really hate how much hype ruins movies for me. This was a great film. I know it was a great film, and yet I still feel disappointed after seeing it.

Inflated expectations are a helluva drug.
Nafai1123
Banned
(07-18-2017, 01:23 AM)
The Colonel and his soldiers incompetence can be chalked up to arrogance. Same reason they thought a fucking wooden wall was going to help them fight off an invasion force. The Colonels position had transcended simple military chain of command into a form of hero worship and idolization. They believed they were the masters of their fate, hence the "beginning and the end" Alpha and Omega stuff they had going on. They believed they could control the apes, and also believed they could fight off a huge fucking army marching at their gates.
Vampirolol
Member
(07-18-2017, 02:21 PM)
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I really liked this movie, but I need to watch it again 'cause some people tried to ruin the experience for me with those cellphones.
So about War: the story itself is simpler than Dawn and that's because the movies are so different. Dawn was an action movie (the final fight reminded me of Lethal Weapon) while War feels more like a western movie. You have the revenge theme, the war, the prison, it's really something that Leone would have liked. And it works. Some parts are so well made that I still can't believe what I saw, like how humans were cruel, how they managed to make the illness so tragic and believable, how revenge was consuming Caesar.
Once again, like in Rise and Dawn, this movie has some things that aren't perfect, or just undercooked. But nothing felt "too convenient" like I'm reading here. It wasn't supposed to be a documentary, it was supposed to be the third movie about Caesar. And they nailed it.
Special effects deserve an oscar at the very least.
Chasm Skulker
Banned
(07-18-2017, 02:41 PM)

Originally Posted by Nafai1123

The Colonel and his soldiers incompetence can be chalked up to arrogance. Same reason they thought a fucking wooden wall was going to help them fight off an invasion force. The Colonels position had transcended simple military chain of command into a form of hero worship and idolization. They believed they were the masters of their fate, hence the "beginning and the end" Alpha and Omega stuff they had going on. They believed they could control the apes, and also believed they could fight off a huge fucking army marching at their gates.

I'm a bit more cynical about the wall thing. Its so contrived, its like they came up with it to explain away why the Colonel doesn't just exterminate the apes and needs them for slave labour instead. Because that is actually the sort of thing we are to expect the Colonel would do. But I suppose it's not the kind of movie they wanted to make.
MysticX
Member
(07-18-2017, 05:42 PM)
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so, I am torn between this movie and baby driver for the night....I do love the other ape films so maybe I should just see this one?
Anton Sugar
Member
(07-18-2017, 06:11 PM)
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Interesting that a podcast I listen to recently had an episode called "Sense and Plausibility". It's all about the "phenomena" of forgiving plausibility/logic holes if you're enjoying the movie. One of the more famous examples they discuss is the Rex pen in Jurassic Park and its shape-shifting cliff wall.

That specific example isn't something I noticed until maybe a decade after I saw JP the first time, and it may have been through reading about it on a forum.

The conversation started because one of the hosts decided to sit through all the Pirates of the Caribbean movies (bless him)...and he ended up really enjoying them, despite how nonsensical the story/plot was. He argued that, in these cases (he felt this sort of thinking doesn't apply to *all* movies), the plot/story is little more than service to get from one exciting setpiece to another, and that's not inherently a bad thing, if that's what the film's goal is.

Anyway, I think there is something to that, in some way. There have been plenty of times where I was completely enthralled by a movie but thinking about it later, I pick up on a lot of things that don't make logical sense. Should I consider those to be serious flaws if they really didn't seem to impact my overall enjoyment of that movie the first time?

I don't really have a concrete stance on it, but some food for thought.
Inferno313
Banned
(07-18-2017, 06:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by MysticX

so, I am torn between this movie and baby driver for the night....I do love the other ape films so maybe I should just see this one?

Oh man. Tough call. They're both my favorite films of the summer. Can't go wrong with either.
ReplacementPelican
Member
(07-18-2017, 06:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nafai1123

The Colonel and his soldiers incompetence can be chalked up to arrogance. Same reason they thought a fucking wooden wall was going to help them fight off an invasion force. The Colonels position had transcended simple military chain of command into a form of hero worship and idolization. They believed they were the masters of their fate, hence the "beginning and the end" Alpha and Omega stuff they had going on. They believed they could control the apes, and also believed they could fight off a huge fucking army marching at their gates.

That reminds me. I was so fucking sure the 'other army' were going to be more apes, after they met Bad Ape and got an idea there were more I was shocked they didn't do that as a typical POTA twist. Even when they were all wearing masks and looking at Caesar I was sure that's what would have happened.
Timbuktu
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(07-19-2017, 12:32 AM)
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This series has come a long way. I really liked that it felt old fashioned in a way, especially a first half that felt like a western. The prison break second half wasn't as good, the human side of things didn't make sense and the ending was a bit convenient, we could have spent a bit more time there and sped up things a bit in the middle.

Not sure where they will take this now. It isn't really the same planet of the apes as the original series, having the astronaut turn up now might not make that much sense, unless they do a massive time skip.
Ronin Ray
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(07-19-2017, 12:39 AM)
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I watched this last night and think it's one of the best movies I have ever seen. I was completely blown away by it
fade_
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(07-19-2017, 12:48 AM)
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Am I the only one that thought that at the end one of the soldiers of the attacking army was going to take off their mask and they would all turn out to be apes from somewhere else that commandeered an army base and learned how to use modern weaponry?
Timbuktu
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(07-19-2017, 12:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by fade_

Am I the only one that thought that at the end one of the soldiers of the attacking army was going to take off their mask and they would all turn out to be apes from somewhere else that commandeered an army base and learned how to use modern weaponry?

I didn't really think that. This series has been stuck to a kind of realism, so I didn't really expect a huge number of apes coming down from the north. I mean, rise was set in our world and most apes species are in zoos or are endangered. For the time span on the movies, having the humans dying off and self destructing was the right move. But I dont feel like there can be that many apes, at least not in North America.
fade_
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(07-19-2017, 12:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Timbuktu

I didn't really think that. This series has been stuck to a kind of realism, so I didn't really expect a huge number of apes coming down from the north. I mean, rise was set in our world and most apes species are in zoos or are endangered. For the time span on the movies, having the humans dying off and self destructing was the right move. But I dont feel like there can be that many apes, at least not in North America.

Ya, not saying it made sense but it just felt odd that they really didn't show their faces at all.
Anton Sugar
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(07-19-2017, 01:40 AM)
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Seems like an easy budget decision more than anything else.
ReplacementPelican
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(07-19-2017, 01:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by fade_

Am I the only one that thought that at the end one of the soldiers of the attacking army was going to take off their mask and they would all turn out to be apes from somewhere else that commandeered an army base and learned how to use modern weaponry?

Three posts above you, yes.

I get that the series largely stuck to realism but they could have still pulled off a massive twist like this in the final chapter. Not too bothered it wasn't the case though.
Jimothy
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(07-19-2017, 02:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by ReplacementPelican

That reminds me. I was so fucking sure the 'other army' were going to be more apes, after they met Bad Ape and got an idea there were more I was shocked they didn't do that as a typical POTA twist. Even when they were all wearing masks and looking at Caesar I was sure that's what would have happened.

Oh man. That would have been great.
Razorback PT
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(07-19-2017, 02:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by ReplacementPelican

That reminds me. I was so fucking sure the 'other army' were going to be more apes, after they met Bad Ape and got an idea there were more I was shocked they didn't do that as a typical POTA twist. Even when they were all wearing masks and looking at Caesar I was sure that's what would have happened.

I just saw the movie and came here to post exactly this. It was even properly foreshadowed like you say. Damn, I can't think of any downsides, it would have been an awesome ending.
Vectorman
Banned
(07-19-2017, 02:39 AM)
Lol trying to imagine a Koba-like ape screaming in the cockpit of one of the helicopters firing off missiles.
fade_
Member
(07-19-2017, 02:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by ReplacementPelican

Three posts above you, yes.

I get that the series largely stuck to realism but they could have still pulled off a massive twist like this in the final chapter. Not too bothered it wasn't the case though.

Don't know how I missed the post. Glad Im not the only one. I was so sure it was going to happen too, almost like they wanted you to believe it was going to happen and it would have been predictable if it did so the swerve is that it stayed real.
RS4-
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(07-19-2017, 02:47 AM)
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Enjoyed it a fair bit, I think I like Dawn more out of the three.

Really thought crossbow guy would turn, or that the attacking army would be apes or a mix of apes and humans.
Ronin Ray
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(07-19-2017, 04:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by RS4-

Enjoyed it a fair bit, I think I like Dawn more out of the three.

Really thought crossbow guy would turn, or that the attacking army would be apes or a mix of apes and humans.

You know that army could have been. We will never know.
ShadyK54
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(07-19-2017, 04:26 AM)
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Saw this last night. Really liked Rise, loved Dawn, and loved War even more than that.

Standout aspects for me have to be the cinematography and Serkis' performance as Caesar. While the ending left me sad and emotional (as did other scenes), it felt like a good cap to Caesar's story.

I'm curious to see which way they go with a fourth movie should it happen (remake of the '68 movie, or something else).

Amazing movie. Might be my favorite of the year so far along with Logan (maybe until I see Baby Driver and Dunkirk).
BronsonLee
Banned
(07-19-2017, 04:29 AM)

Originally Posted by RS4-

Enjoyed it a fair bit, I think I like Dawn more out of the three.

Really thought crossbow guy would turn

That dude was a such a little biiiiiiiiiitch

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