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Diablos
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by whyamihere

No challenger against Claire or Heidi or Donnelly or Tester. What a fucking mess.

Too early? Someone has to emerge? Or maybe The Donald will start defining the Senate GOP in his image. Yikes!
NYCmetsfan
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 06:50 PM)

Originally Posted by Ignatz Mouse

Yeah it is.

It's completely downplaying the context of those comments and the very real threat hacking comprises.

Begala literally said blow up the KGB.

There's like a million other ways to respond. The war language isn't good because war means something. Infringing on sovereignty isn't war.
Aaron Strife
Honk if you love cookies.
(07-17-2017, 06:51 PM)
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Getting a good Utah Senate candidate for once (sorry Misty) is pleasantly surprising. Wilson has no chance of winning but giving the base someone to turn out for is always important, even if you have to go into the weeds a fair bit before finding any seat that can flip.

Originally Posted by ErasureAcer

How the hell do you lose to Jason Lewis?

At least he's clearly in the shot of Trump's House Healthcare victory parade. If she loses again with that on his record.

Her fortunes were pretty closely tied to Clinton's - iirc they lost the district by about the same margin and there was a third party dumbass who probably sponged up her winning margin. Working on her campaign I think their idea was that she could flip GOP votes and that clearly didn't pan out.

The GOP has very deliberately gotten Independence Party candidates to run only in swing districts so they can peel off more Democrats, who are likelier to vote third party. This happened in MN-3 in 2008 (the last time it was open) and MN-6 multiple times when Bachmann was the only factor keeping that seat competitive. I hate that people manage to fall for it every time.

The MN-3 candidate this year raised almost as much as Paulsen, but his haul is more impressive when you consider he's abided by a no PAC pledge. Their totals are pretty even (533k for Dean Phillips, 595k for Paulsen) but when you remove PAC money from that it becomes 525k for Phillips and just 246k for Paulsen, more than double. Anytime someone pledges to not take money from PACs I worry they're needlessly handicapping themselves, but it seems like Phillips can fend for himself at least.

Originally Posted by Diablos

Too early? Someone has to emerge? Or maybe The Donald will start defining the Senate GOP in his image. Yikes!

I mean obviously all four of them will have GOP challengers, but the later someone jumps into a cycle the harder it is to hit the ground running. If no one gets in until 2018 that lets Heitkamp, McCaskill, Donnelly and Tester enjoy free, positive coverage whenever they do something and without the specter of a tough challenger hanging over their heads.
Last edited by Aaron Strife; 07-17-2017 at 06:55 PM.
AntraxSuicide
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:54 PM)
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I disagree with that article's general premise that electronic warfare isn't warfare. It's like when older people argue that online communication isn't real, or that online harassment isn't harassment. It's an outdated way of thinking.
Roland_Gunner
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:56 PM)

Originally Posted by NYCmetsfan

Begala literally said blow up the KGB.

There's like a million other ways to respond. The war language isn't good because war means something. Infringing on sovereignty isn't war.

Its not war but interfering with an election is clear casus belli. Obviously we can't start a shooting war with a nuclear armed state but it isn't something we can walk away from either. Heer does a good job of balancing those two goals.
Teggy
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(07-17-2017, 06:58 PM)
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Todd Akin calling MO GOP asking if he can jump in, probably.


Hey, we'll be getting more "kid trump" pictures

Last edited by Teggy; 07-17-2017 at 07:00 PM.
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 06:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by AntraxSuicide

I disagree with that article's general premise that electronic warfare isn't warfare. It's like when older people argue that online communication isn't real, or that online harassment isn't harassment. It's an outdated way of thinking.

Yup.
Aaron Strife
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(07-17-2017, 07:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Teggy

Todd Akin calling MO GOP asking if he can jump in, probably.

Doubt it, but I wonder if six years is enough time for everyone to forget or if the Democrats could still get mileage out of the abortion issue.

Vitter sailed to reelection in a wave year and thought that meant LA voters forgave him for his bizarre sex scandal. Not so!
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

Yup.

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?
Poodlestrike
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(07-17-2017, 07:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

Yeah, basically.

Let's doo the cold waaar agaaaaain!

(To the tune of "let's do the time warp" obvs)
sangreal
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(07-17-2017, 07:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Teggy

Hey, we'll be getting more "kid trump" pictures

oh lord

12 year old me would have been so excited. Unlike Trump, I've aged since then
Hindl
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(07-17-2017, 07:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

Not with Trump in office, but if a Dem gets back in the Cold War may restart
whyamihere
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(07-17-2017, 07:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by NYCmetsfan

Its still a year and half away. But its bad for them

Definitely, but it's allowing the Dems to run up a cash advantage that becomes more precarious the longer they choose not to jump in the race.

Gardner is an exception, not a rule.
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

Duh.
Abinash117
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:17 PM)

Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

After Russia's geopolitical moves in the recent years and what Russia did to the US in the last election, including other hacking attempts. It is kind of obvious what is going to happen once Trump is gone. I doubt a typical war, but yeah some form of a cold war.
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abinash117

After Russia's geopolitical moves in the recent years and what Russia did to the US in the last election, including other hacking attempts. It is kind of obvious what is going to happen once Trump is gone. I doubt a typical war, but yeah some form of a cold war.

Seems really stupid to me; but clearly I'm in the minority here.
Ignatz Mouse
Vote with your $$$
(07-17-2017, 07:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by NYCmetsfan

Begala literally said blow up the KGB.

There's like a million other ways to respond. The war language isn't good because war means something. Infringing on sovereignty isn't war.

Given that the KGB is an institution and not a location, I think it's pretty clear that that's mean figuratively.

Originally Posted by AntraxSuicide

I disagree with that article's general premise that electronic warfare isn't warfare. It's like when older people argue that online communication isn't real, or that online harassment isn't harassment. It's an outdated way of thinking.

This.
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:21 PM)
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Pretty sure CAT is only assembled in America. I think most parts are made in china/mexico then shipped stateside.


This week is gonna be a hot mess
kirblar
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Seems really stupid to me; but clearly I'm in the minority here.

When you are fucking attacked, you don't just go "oh that's ok, please keep doing it!"
StopMakingSense
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(07-17-2017, 07:21 PM)
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Nah, Putin will acquiesce if the tides change against him, happy he was able to get as much as he did for so little relative investment. Russia doesn't have the money to be isolated like that again.
balladofwindfishes
(07-17-2017, 07:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

A hostile foreign government meddled with our democratic process, I'd hope we'd be at war
Ignatz Mouse
Vote with your $$$
(07-17-2017, 07:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

When you are fucking attacked, you don't just go "oh that's ok, please keep doing it!"

Exactly. Unless there's an unknown factor here (there may well be) we aren't the aggressors here. But to act like it's not happening is ridiculous. I fully expect sanctions and response-in-kind are both on the table.

Nobody is actually talking about military warfare, which is what that article is trying to imply.
AntraxSuicide
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(07-17-2017, 07:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

Kinda? My point is that treating Obama era electronic warfare as some sort of harmless move is outdated. It's on the same level as crossing their border, just digitally. Older people see that as a distinction but in the modern day, it's not.
Abinash117
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:25 PM)

Originally Posted by PBY

Seems really stupid to me; but clearly I'm in the minority here.

I mean what did you expect? You honestly think a good chunk of population and the US government is just not want to do anything?
Hindl
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(07-17-2017, 07:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Seems really stupid to me; but clearly I'm in the minority here.

So what do you think should be done about Russia?
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by StopMakingSense

Nah, Putin will acquiesce if the tides change against him, happy he was able to get as much as he did for so little relative investment. Russia doesn't have the money to be isolated like that again.

He's lashing out like this because he is isolated. Westerners imposed sanctions, OPEC crashed oil prices.
RumbleHumble
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(07-17-2017, 07:26 PM)
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While McCain recovers, Democrats are pushing for hearings on Senate Healthcare bill:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/de...rticle/2628830
Poodlestrike
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(07-17-2017, 07:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by RumbleHumble

While McCain recovers, Democrats are pushing for hearings on Senate Healthcare bill:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/de...rticle/2628830

Good play. More exposure this thing gets the deader it is.
Aaron Strife
Honk if you love cookies.
(07-17-2017, 07:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by RumbleHumble

While McCain recovers, Democrats are pushing for hearings on Senate Healthcare bill:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/de...rticle/2628830

They won't get them, but it's good to keep the pressure up.

Johnson is trolling McConnell by saying he's undecided on the bill now based on McConnell's promises to the moderates that none of the bad parts will ever go into effect, lol. I'm starting to suspect McConnell may not be the genius everyone's hyped him up to be.

Beer Monkey
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:32 PM)

Originally Posted by PBY

I mean... then are we at war with Russia?

Russia is certainly at war with us. So yes.

Their cyber attacks are far more damaging to our democratic values, institutions, and stability than they could ever accomplish with conventional warfare.
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hindl

So what do you think should be done about Russia?

Everything we can to avoid war?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
(07-17-2017, 07:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Everything we can to avoid war?

The definition of war is not quite what it was decades ago.
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Everything we can to avoid war?

We tried that in the 30s. Didn't really work out.

We did not decide to go to war w Russia. They declared it on us.

When you attack us, there must be consequences.
AntraxSuicide
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(07-17-2017, 07:37 PM)
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There certainly isn't an easy answer with Russia. The lay of the land, so to speak, is that a powerful nation (with the second strongest military in the world) is led by people who have no interest in negotiation. In fact, they blame negotiation with the world for the fall of the USSR and its pride.

Diplomacy has only pushed them to aggression because they'd rather go down shooting than negotiate. Any action taken against them could spark a full war. So I get why it's a hard situation. But to that end people need to remember that while we haven't had a war in the past 60-70 years that was justifiable or unavoidable, sometimes they do happen. It's scary but it's true.

Edit:

Originally Posted by PBY

Everything we can to avoid war?

The only action that won't risk war is to lift our sanctions and halt any response to election influence and their military actions in neighboring states. Putin is against the wall and any response has a chance of him feeling trapped. Obviously though it's silly to allow these crimes to go unanswered.
Last edited by AntraxSuicide; 07-17-2017 at 07:42 PM.
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by AntraxSuicide

There certainly isn't an easy answer with Russia. The lay of the land, so to speak, is that a powerful nation (with the second strongest military in the world) is led by people who have no interest in negotiation. In fact, they blame negotiation with the world for the fall of the USSR and its pride.

Diplomacy has only pushed them to aggression because they'd rather go down shooting than negotiate. Any action taken against them could spark a full war. So I get why it's a hard situation. But to that end people need to remember that while we haven't had a war in the past 60-70 years that was justifiable or unavoidable, sometimes they do happen. It's scary but it's true.

Afghanistan was fine, Gulf War was fine.
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

We tried that in the 30s. Didn't really work out.

We did not decide to go to war w Russia. They declared it on us.

When you attack us, there must be consequences.

Dude you sound like a rabid hawk, not sure how else to frame it.

When we retaliate, there are also consequences.
Hindl
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(07-17-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Everything we can to avoid war?

Well what's war? Is it boots on the ground? Then yes, I agree we should avoid that. Is cyber warfare war? If yes, then I disagree, we should launch a counterattack
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Dude you sound like a rabid hawk, not sure how else to frame it.

When we retaliate, there are also consequences.

Defending the USA from foreign attackers is not "hawkish"! Holy fuck!

You sound like a kid who got so used to being beat up by a bully that your only response to aggression is inaction .
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hindl

Well what's war? Is it boots on the ground? Then yes, I agree we should avoid that. Is cyber warfare war? If yes, then I disagree, we should launch a counterattack

I mean, I don't have close to enough information here to make informed points. However, I would just note that our counterrattacks, whatever form they take, will not be without consequence either.
Zolo
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(07-17-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

Dude you sound like a rabid hawk, not sure how else to frame it.

Do you suggest we should go tell the teacher?
Hindl
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(07-17-2017, 07:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean, I don't have close to enough information here to make informed points. However, I would just note that our counterrattacks, whatever form they take, will not be without consequence either.

Of course not, but action has to be taken regardless. Even if Russia stopped meddling in America's elections and affairs, they are trying to destabilize Western civilization as a whole and invading former Soviet satellites. They are a danger to world peace and need to be dealt with
Bonen no Max'd
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(07-17-2017, 07:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

Afghanistan was fine

.................................................

26000 dead civilians in a war with no conceivable ending is not what I'd typically characterize as "fine"
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bonen no Max'd

.................................................

26000 dead civilians in a war with no conceivable ending is not what I'd typically characterize as "fine"

Once I read that I knew we wouldn't see eye to eye.
barber
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(07-17-2017, 07:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by PBY

I mean, I don't have close to enough information here to make informed points. However, I would just note that our counterrattacks, whatever form they take, will not be without consequence either.

I really hate doing this but every single time in history that nations decided to let anothers do as they wished in order to avoid a big war it just resulted in an even worse situation, as the other guy just continued to play its hand to obtain more and more advantages until war was inevitable. A hard stance (such as "warnings" in the form of hacks and improvements in the western cyber security and maybe better connection with media to avoid bots) is necessary! Economic sanctions should be put until he decides to play by normal rules!
Edit: afghanistan is a weird situation as it is a symbol of what happens when two superpowers decide to do proxy wars that end up destroying a country and then being left alone was too unstable. If there was no war, it would probably be a narco country with a really hard islamic culture that would be the bed for wahhabbist terrorists.
Last edited by barber; 07-17-2017 at 07:47 PM.
kirblar
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(07-17-2017, 07:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bonen no Max'd

.................................................

26000 dead civilians in a war with no conceivable ending is not what I'd typically characterize as "fine"

A government protecting the terrorists who killed ~4000 people on 9/11 is not "fine" to let exist.

Afghanistan got fucked in large part because of Iraq and the diversion of necessary resources.

Bin Laden led those attacks. And we put a bullet through his brain. When you are attacked, you retaliate.

Not all retaliation need be direct military (and in Russia's case, it cant' be.)
Frank the Great
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(07-17-2017, 07:45 PM)
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Russia should be hit with economic sanctions in some form for the hacking.

Talk of anything further is crazy. A cyber counterattack is needless escalation and is not how modern nations resolve problems.

It's also crazy that Russia is getting away with it thanks to Trump. I mean, holy shit. History will look back and say WTF.
Abinash117
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:45 PM)

Originally Posted by PBY

Everything we can to avoid war?

What does that mean?

Do you mean war as any type of retaliation or any retaliation that might lead to more physical type of war?

If conclusive evidence is provided that the Russians influence in the elections and hacked other systems, what should be the response?

Originally Posted by PBY

I mean, I don't have close to enough information here to make informed points. However, I would just note that our counterrattacks, whatever form they take, will not be without consequence either.

There will consequences by not doing anything as well. No matter what you do there will be consequences.
Last edited by Abinash117; 07-17-2017 at 07:47 PM.
PBY
(07-17-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

A government protecting the terrorists who killed ~4000 people on 9/11 is not "fine" to let exist.

Afghanistan got fucked in large part because of Iraq and the diversion of necessary resources.

Bin Laden led those attacks. And we put a bullet through his brain. When you are attacked, you retaliate.

Not all retaliation need be direct military (and in Russia's case, it cant' be.)

LOL WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS.

Retaliation, "Just bc its what you do" is a fucking terrible answer for going to war. You better be able to show me, in a quantifiable way, that you are saving lives on aggregate. What did this war solve?
Last edited by PBY; 07-17-2017 at 07:49 PM.
Bonen no Max'd
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(07-17-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

A government protecting the terrorists who killed ~4000 people on 9/11 is not "fine" to let exist.

Afghanistan got fucked in large part because of Iraq and the diversion of necessary resources.

I hope you support an immediate invasion and occupation of the United States so that the terrorist-supporting government that frequently infringes upon sovereignty and kills thousands of civilians will be stopped.
sphagnum
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(07-17-2017, 07:47 PM)
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Afghanistan could have been fine but of course Bush messed it up and also blew our chance at a better relationship with Iran.
Last edited by sphagnum; 07-17-2017 at 07:49 PM. Reason: edited out the Russia part because I forgot we got along ok enough with them during Bush's years until the Georgia mess

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