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Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 01:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Huw_Dawson

It's not intellectually dishonest to advocate for Single Market and Customs Union membership. Advocating a hard Brexit when you think it is a stupid idea is dishonest.

If you wish to claim to leave the EU, but then go on and sign up to an equivalent deal and call it something else that is dishonest. We should be looking at ways to get as much of our current benefits as possible is also Labour's position but like many have said before that's fantasy land. The problem everyone is facing is that people's wishes, reality, and the good of the country are currently 3 different points that are not in alignment.
Huw_Dawson
Member
(07-01-2017, 02:08 PM)
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Well yeah, but you have parties out there that do not want to leave the EU. :)
Theonik
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(07-01-2017, 02:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Huw_Dawson

Well yeah, but you have parties out there that do not want to leave the EU. :)

Only party I can think of that wants to do that is the Greens. And that's depressing.
Staying in the Single market is not staying in the EU. But it's not leaving it either.
jem0208
Member
(07-01-2017, 02:18 PM)
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I feel like the Lib Dems should have just gone all out and campaigned on cancelling article 50 and keeping us in the EU.

The whole second referendum idea was rubbish.
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 02:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by jem0208

I feel like the Lib Dems should have just gone all out and campaigned on cancelling article 50 and keeping us in the EU.

The whole second referendum idea was rubbish.

LD run on the platform of 'We'll try to stay in the single market then put the deal to referendum' technically. It's a solution that tries to stand between both parties but ends up appeasing neither.
E: It's an unclear solution as well because they want to not leave if the referendum doesn't succeed which means they are for staying in all but name. But I don't see who this position pleases.
Last edited by Theonik; 07-01-2017 at 03:54 PM.
Beefy
Member
(07-01-2017, 03:25 PM)
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Problem is, the UK is a two party country. I'm not going to vote Lib Dems when that vote would mean basically nothing. So I end up voting for Labour to try and get the Tories kicked out. I don't like everything Corbyn wants, but prefer Labour way loads over Tories.
Coriolanus
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(07-01-2017, 03:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Beefy

Problem is, the UK is a two party country. I'm not going to vote Lib Dems when that vote would mean basically nothing. So I end up voting for Labour to try and get the Tories kicked out. I don't like everything Corbyn wants, but prefer Labour way loads over Tories.

That depends on where you're at, really. A vote for libdems might not be as good as a vote for labour, but might very well be ideal if you're in a region where it is a contest between LD and Con, with labour a distant third at which point it'd be better to just vote LD.
Beefy
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(07-01-2017, 03:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Coriolanus

That depends on where you're at, really. A vote for libdems might not be as good as a vote for labour, but might very well be ideal if you're in a region where it is a contest between LD and Con, with labour a distant third at which point it'd be better to just vote LD.

Tories won by 20 votes here. So Labour were very close to turning here Red for the first time in years. I was more on about General Election, where Lib Dems don't really have a chance. Shame they got ripped apart.
Lagamorph
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(07-01-2017, 04:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Beefy

Tories won by 20 votes here. So Labour were very close to turning here Red for the first time in years. I was more on about General Election, where Lib Dems don't really have a chance. Shame they got ripped apart.

There was a seat in Scotland where the Lib Dems lost by literally 2 votes during the GE.
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 04:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

There was a seat in Scotland where the Lib Dems lost by literally 2 votes during the GE.

To the Snp though. The better option.
ss1
Junior Member
(07-01-2017, 05:07 PM)
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U-turn incoming: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-young-voters

Apparently tuition fees are a problem now.
JonnyDBrit
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(07-01-2017, 05:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by ss1

U-turn incoming: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-young-voters

Apparently tuition fees are a problem now.

So the Tories are potentially caught between not lowering tuition fees, or raising taxes.

Love it.
Lagamorph
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(07-01-2017, 05:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Theonik

To the Snp though. The better option.

Only if you support Scottish independence.
Addnan
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:16 PM)
Didn't they approve tuition fee rise just last year, why it's £9250 for students starting later this year, so how are they going to budget that..
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

Only if you support Scottish independence.

You'll get a referendum for that question.
D4Danger
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:22 PM)
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I mean it says it right there in the first paragraph that they're only thinking about tuition fees to try and win back voters. They're not going to do it.

the thing is Tories have shown the public what their ultimate version of the UK is. They thought they were going to stroll into a massive majority and filled their manifesto with every piece of crap they could think of because who was going to stop them? This is what everyone should remember going forward. Even in the next election their manifesto is going to be worthless because you know they'll say anything to trick people away from Labour and then chop and change as needed.
Last edited by D4Danger; 07-01-2017 at 05:26 PM.
Lagamorph
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Theonik

You'll get a referendum for that question.

There already was one.
Independence is pretty much the only real policy the SNP has. If Sturgeon had talked about it a bit less during the General Election (Or actually talked about pretty much anything else at all) the SNP may not have had such a disastrous showing on Election night. It was clear there was no real appetite for another independence referendum so soon but she pushed on ahead with it anyway.

The SNP are also the only party in the UK to have actively cut the budget of the NHS.
Last edited by Lagamorph; 07-01-2017 at 05:33 PM.
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

There already was one.

Yes but the constitutional circumstances have changed since then. There will be no independence unless people vote for it. Turning a general election into a referendum over a single policy is really shortsighted.
E:Snp primarily talked about domestic policy not indy ref 2. Moreso than other parties this election that tried to make it an anti indy ref election. Snp still was the largest party and got most seats.
Last edited by Theonik; 07-01-2017 at 05:36 PM.
Lagamorph
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(07-01-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Theonik

Yes but the constitutional circumstances have changed since then. There will be no independence unless people vote for it. Turning a general election into a referendum over a single policy is really shortsighted.

That's pretty much what Sturgeon tried to do though.
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

That's pretty much what Sturgeon tried to do though.

If you look at snp's manifesto and flyers that wasn't the case.
Wrestlemania
Member
(07-01-2017, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

That's pretty much what Sturgeon tried to do though.

Sturgeon didnít do that - the opposition did. Sturgeon had initiated the processes for another referendum without any expectation for a snap election. Once it was called, the other parties then campaigned almost exclusively on opposing another referendum.
Huw_Dawson
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(07-01-2017, 06:39 PM)
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The Tories have an image problem - it is the classic 'nasty party's issue. That isn't going to be fixed by one or two policy changes.
D4Danger
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(07-01-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Huw_Dawson

The Tories have an image problem - it is the classic 'nasty party's issue. That isn't going to be fixed by one or two policy changes.

I love that the "nasty party" label was a self-inflicted wound by May.

I remember she tried to spin in around on Labour shortly after becoming PM and nobody was buying it.
Wrestlemania
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(07-01-2017, 06:48 PM)
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On holding a referendum approving/rejecting the proposed Brexit deal once negotiations are complete:

Support: 46%
Oppose: 47%

https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...06773927071744

Neck and neck. Support for a referendum on the deal is only going to grow as it becomes more and more apparent that the Tories are going to get us a bad deal, isnít it?

Or rather - that leaving the EU in any form can only give us a ďbad dealĒ.
Huw_Dawson
Member
(07-01-2017, 06:51 PM)
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The second referendum policy may yet be my party's saving grace. The electorate strongly agrees with it + people get behind Vince. Otherwise my party will be in the doldrums for a long while yet.
Beefy
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(07-01-2017, 07:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by ss1

U-turn incoming: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-young-voters

Apparently tuition fees are a problem now.

When they going to reverse the benefit cuts? 🤔
Morat
Member
(07-01-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Beefy

When they going to reverse the benefit cuts? 🤔

They'll announce less cuts than previously stated, and claim it as a humanitarian triumph
Huw_Dawson
Member
(07-01-2017, 08:02 PM)
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Green is playing a very dangerous game - for all the pain the eurosceptics can cause him, it is nothing compared to the fiscal conservative bloc.
Theonik
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(07-01-2017, 08:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Huw_Dawson

The second referendum policy may yet be my party's saving grace. The electorate strongly agrees with it + people get behind Vince. Otherwise my party will be in the doldrums for a long while yet.

I think the problem is that for many it's to choose whether the brexit is hard enough not for the LD single market or no brexit.
Protome
Member
(07-01-2017, 08:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lagamorph

That's pretty much what Sturgeon tried to do though.

That's one way to rewrite history I guess.

In this reality however. The SNP barely talked about independence during the Election, unfortunately they did before the election allowing the Tories to turn the Election in Scotland into an argument about Independence rather than policy. Whereas in England they failed in their attempt to make the argument there about Brexit.
Last edited by Protome; 07-01-2017 at 08:20 PM.
Valhelm
contribute something
(07-01-2017, 08:37 PM)
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...02621004083202

Originally Posted by Britain Elects

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 45%
CON: 39%
LDEM: 5%
UKIP: 5%
GRN: 2%

(via @OpiniumResearch / 27 - 29 Jun)

Inject this directly into my veins
*Splinter
Member
(07-01-2017, 08:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Valhelm

https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...02621004083202



Inject this directly into my veins

Just a few weeks too late :/
Theonik
Member
(07-01-2017, 08:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by *Splinter

Just a few weeks too late :/

One doesn't see tories outlasting brexit.
Beefy
Member
(07-01-2017, 08:55 PM)
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Tories have pissed on the poor for too long, it was bound to fuck them over in time. That and I have never seen the crowds Corbyn attracts before in my life time
Horsefly
Junior Member
(07-01-2017, 09:07 PM)

Originally Posted by Beefy

Tories have pissed on the poor for too long, it was bound to fuck them over in time. That and I have never seen the crowds Corbyn attracts before in my life time

You know Glastonbury's already a thing, right?
Rodelero
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(07-01-2017, 09:10 PM)
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Some rather different numbers from Survation:

Voting intention
Conservatives 41 (+1)
Labour 40 (-4)
LD 7
UKIP 2

In a way I don't find the fall from Labour that surprising. I don't think it's got anything to do with Umunna's stunt in all honesty, I think that's passed the public by for the most part, I think it's just things returning to some degree of normality after the extraordinary few weeks we've had. Worth remembering of course that Survation have consistently been the most accurate pollster in recent years.

The much more interesting info though is on Brexit, together with the number posted above about the growing desire for a second referendum. Is regrexit finally starting to occur?

Brexit excluding DKs
Remain 54
Leave 46

You really have to question how precarious Brexit will become if polling starts to consistently show the public is against it. Then again, I guess the polling has always been against 'hard' brexit and yet we seem to be heading towards precisely that. Things could be about to go completely nuts.
Last edited by Rodelero; 07-01-2017 at 09:26 PM.
Xando
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(07-01-2017, 09:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Valhelm

https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...02621004083202



Inject this directly into my veins

Somewhere right now there are tory strategists thinking about calling a new election and let labour jump on the Brexit grenade.

Whoever is in opposition in march 2019 will destroy the government.
Beefy
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(07-01-2017, 09:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Horsefly

You know Glastonbury's already a thing, right?

You know I am not on about that right?
Rodelero
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(07-01-2017, 09:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by ss1

U-turn incoming: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-young-voters

Apparently tuition fees are a problem now.

The Conservatives haven't done anything for young people apart from provide lip service. They know perfectly well that the young are getting hammered but they are entirely unwilling to do anything serious about it. They'll play around at the edge of issues in practically meaningless ways. Hell, their manifesto literally had a whole spiel about addressing the fairness between young and old... but every policy was about taking from the old (winter fuel, triple lock, dementia tax) not giving to or helping the young.

As much as the student fees issue gets a lot of play, the key issue is surely housing. If the Conservatives could make any progress towards solving the housing crisis then maybe they'd have a chance with young voters, but I don't think they are willing to do what it will take to crack that particular nut.
Protome
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(07-01-2017, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by ss1

U-turn incoming: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-young-voters

Apparently tuition fees are a problem now.

Originally Posted by A Useless Cunt

Ukip hankers after the 1950s, Corbyn’s Labour the 1970s, with both hoping that nobody under 40 reads a history book and sees the glaring faults in those eras.

"They just want to return us to decade X" is such a terrible non-argument, regardless of whether it's being levelled at the Tories for their Thatcher-esque policies or Corbyn for trying to return Labour to be at least slightly Left again.
hohoXD123
friggin' Knack avatars
(07-02-2017, 12:51 AM)
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ublic-spending

Had to do a double take when reading this. You know the situation is dire when Jeremy fucking Hunt is advocating for a lifting of the 1% cap.
Dirtyshubb
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(07-02-2017, 01:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by hohoXD123

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ublic-spending

Had to do a double take when reading this. You know the situation is dire when Jeremy fucking Hunt is advocating for a lifting of the 1% cap.

Just more and more examples of how austerity is just an ideological choice and not necessary.

It's just so disgusting how we get told we can't afford anything and must live within our means yet as soon as the polls go down they start panicking and seeing which piece of shit policy they can cut or trim down to get more votes.
SteveWD40
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(07-02-2017, 09:03 AM)
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I feel that with the Tory vote ageing (dying), the decline of the print media and rise of alternative news / a youth vote that is progressive to the tune of 70%... we may be back to generations of Labour government this decade.

It took Cameron (far more charming and less right wing) running against the non entity of the lesser Milliband to get them a majority, something he couldn't even pull off against Brown who was losing votes to Clegg.

I am hoping that Brexit and recent Tory wins were the last hurrah of the boomer generation.
Uzzy
(07-02-2017, 09:20 AM)
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The Sunday Telegraph has this story today.

CyclopsRock
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(07-02-2017, 09:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by SteveWD40

I feel that with the Tory vote ageing (dying), the decline of the print media and rise of alternative news / a youth vote that is progressive to the tune of 70%... we may be back to generations of Labour government this decade.

It took Cameron (far more charming and less right wing) running against the non entity of the lesser Milliband to get them a majority, something he couldn't even pull off against Brown who was losing votes to Clegg.

I am hoping that Brexit and recent Tory wins were the last hurrah of the boomer generation.

But we can use these comparisons to paint everyone as crappy, thanks to FPTP. Corbyn has a massive popular backing by the end, massively exceeded expectations and was campaigning against a Tory party who oversaw 7 years of austerity and he ended up with a whopping four seats more than Brown did in 2010, before any Tory Austerity (TM). FPTP sort of fucks these numbers a bit, as evidenced by the fact that both the Tories *and* Labour got a higher voteshare this year than Labour did in 2005 with their decent majority.

-----

In other news, this is a good read:


https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw
Burai
shitonmychest57
(07-02-2017, 09:25 AM)
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-divorce-bill/

Downing Street have briefed the City that we're going to walk out of the Brexit talks in September for no reason other than to appease the UK tabloids.

Wonderful.
TiredofWinning
Junior Member
(07-02-2017, 09:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by CyclopsRock

But we can use these comparisons to paint everyone as crappy, thanks to FPTP. Corbyn has a massive popular backing by the end, massively exceeded expectations and was campaigning against a Tory party who oversaw 7 years of austerity and he ended up with a whopping four seats more than Brown did in 2010, before any Tory Austerity (TM). FPTP sort of fucks these numbers a bit, as evidenced by the fact that both the Tories *and* Labour got a higher voteshare this year than Labour did in 2005 with their decent majority.

-----

In other news, this is a good read:


https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

Yes it seems that young people turn out to vote when you actually offer them hope. May thought she could win by running a cynical campaign, but she underestimated "OOOOOHHHHH JEREMY CORBYNNNNN"

Also not too big fan of Khan but the one plus side is Trump will never step foot in London for the rest of his life.
SteveWD40
Member
(07-02-2017, 09:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Burai

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-divorce-bill/

Downing Street have briefed the City that we're going to walk out of the Brexit talks in September for no reason other than to appease the UK tabloids.

Wonderful.

I doubt her party would let her, even Davis and Gove are rowing back on the hardline stance.

Torygraph trying to keep May looking strong for the base? Easily fabricated story with un-named sources.
Horsefly
Junior Member
(07-02-2017, 09:39 AM)

Originally Posted by Beefy

You know I am not on about that right?

Sorry, that was an attempt at being funny...

But it does come from a place of ignorance. I know nothing of the crowds he draws other than I'm told he draws big crowds. Like most things politics I have to approach with skepticism - what's the make of these crowds? How much of the crowd is already in the choir? How much of the crowd is already part of the Labour machine (all the way down through the unions to the people who pay a union membership)?

Are they simply a meeting of meetings (Which is still impressive in its own right)? Or do they really attract new people with no affiliation?

Essentially, what's the conversion rate?
TiredofWinning
Junior Member
(07-02-2017, 09:45 AM)
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How the fuck is the tory press (Mail, Sun etc.) still sticking with May? Evening Standard is already shitting on her practically everyday.

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