brain_stew
Member
If you don't put your best teams on your new hardware then it deserves to fail. Its criminal that we'll not get to see what Naughty Dog could manage on the platform, the technical research alone would pay dividends.
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Sony: Naughty Dog will be on Vita, all of our studios [Naughty Dog: Nope]
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Not in a creative industry. Top creatives are absolutely essential to creating profitable games, movies, music, etc.
thehypocrite
Member
Not really if you think shitty u-draw sales caused thq to be in the position they are you are severely lacking information. That might be the final nail in the coffin but not the root cause.
You get it.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Has Sony ran out of needing top tier console titles?
Sony is obviously very proud of the work ND does and wishes to foster more of it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
So how come Retro's output has been consistently great despite the various shakeups over the years, ostensibly due to Nintendo's tight control?
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
There was a giant gap between Metroid 3 and DKCR.
brain_stew
Member
So Sony would be happy with them creating a DX11 epic that pushes the 7970 to its max? No first party developer has freedom over what platform they target, asking Naughty Dog to develop for the Vita isn't any different to asking them to develop for the outdated PS3.
Sometimes you get lucky with the new blood. Counterexample, how come Rare hasn't?
MarshMellow96
Member
Given that Bend already got UC working on the Vita, wouldn't it be easy enough to 'Wii-port' an Uncharted game? Sony could put a single ND employee onto it; Sony gets ND on the box and it would sell millions on name alone.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Because Microsoft's inept management has been well documented by this point, most recently in that Eurogamer article.
Actually Rare is a counterexample against your thesis. Under Microsoft Rare was given complete freedom to do what they want, the results did not meet expectations, so Microsoft finally tugged the leash and turned them into a Kinect shovelware factory.
They are putting their best teams on it; Liverpool had a game for launch, Zypper as well, Media Molecule is working on a game, Cambridge and Guerrilla are making Killzone. SCE Worldwide Studios is more than Naughty Dog.
They have freedom to do what they want, not what you want.
Aren't we talking about turning Naughty Dog into a Vita shovelware factory? Their heart certainly won't be in it if forced.
There is a massive downgrade going from Nintendo to Microsoft. lol
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
No. I think Sony would find better uses for them than avatars and Wii Sports knockoffs.
Let's be clear, Microsoft didn't know how to make games early on so they gave Rare free reign expecting that they'd know what to do. Surprise surprise, full freedom to the once great developer turned out to be a disaster.
You need to know when to exert some control.
LiquidSolid
Member
I love how you're just coming up with the most ridiculous scenarios. What's the next one? "Sony's forcing us to develop for the PS4 but we want to keep working on the PS3! Let's quit and go work Phantom games!" Just laughable. If Naughty Dog were as self-centred, handheld hating and dickish as you seem to think they are, I can't really say I'd give a crap if they all left and worked for a publisher that suited them more, like Activision.
No need to put them on the Vita? So the PSP being a complete failure in the west wasn't enough. I mean, unless you're totally okay with the Vita dying, Sony losing millions and the PS brand being damaged even more.
I don't think now is the time. Naughty Dog hasn't made a misstep yet. So, why step in and force them to make a game on platform they don't want and presumably a game they don't want to make (unless Sony also wants to force them to scale down their game to suit the new platform.) Sony got an Uncharted game out on Day 1 on the Vita. If the players on the team don't matter then Naughty Dog doesn't really matter. Any team can fill their shoes and Sony has plenty. All that matters is how they're managed it seems.
PSP was far from a complete failure.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
This whole paragraph is just amazing.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
It's already been said many times, but perception here is important. Naughty Dog are the darlings of the first party, for Sony they're like EAD Tokyo in significance. Nintendo could have farmed out Mario 3D Land to Next Level Games like Sony farmed out Uncharted to Bend, but they didn't. They put EAD Tokyo themselves on it and made a statement that they're damn serious about the 3DS.
It doesn't say much for Sony's determination if they don't already have Naughty Dog working on a Vita title.
It was in the west.
lulz what kind of logic is this?
Do you know how many people left ND in the last couple of years? Do you know how many new men/women they've hired? The core people are still there and are overlooking everything (Wells, Balestra, etc.). So a new team/VITA team shouldn't be a problem.
No it wasn't. It sold very well in the west.
How much like a console Uncharted is the portable Uncharted? That is, if they don't feel Uncharted is a good fit for portable gaming, but Sony decided to release a game of that nature on the Vita *anyway*...
Either the portable Uncharted plays just like the console Uncharted, in which case Sony decided to release a title that isn't a good fit for portable gaming as a major launch title for their handheld, or it plays *nothing* like the console Uncharted, in which case the title is misleading to potential purchasers.
Bend Studios thinks Uncharted is a good fit for a handheld so they chose to make a handheld Uncharted game. Naughty Dog prefers to make and play those games on a big TV.
Naughty Dog also didn't think Move support was worth having in their game, while some people at Guerrilla Games think it's the best way to play a shooter. Go figure.
LiquidSolid
Member
Hardware sold decently, software sold awfully and it completely died like 2-3 years ago because publishers abandoned it in droves. The thing about the PSP though, was that it was coming off the PS2, so a lot of people bought it thinking it would be just as successful. The Vita doesn't have that luxury.
The point wasn't that they are like that, it's that they could do that. How is that situation any different than the max exodus of Infinity Ward? Activision canned the heads, and everyone that mattered left to go with them, because they could.
If ND are anti-handheld or not is irrelevant, if they feel their strength is on console games, Sony only stand to lose from forcing them onto projects they don't want to do.
Sony will always need major console releases, if their top Western studio specifically only wants to do that, I don't see why they'd force them to do otherwise.
mescalineeyes
Banned
The only developer in that list that is anywhere near best is Liverpool.
Also, it's Zipper.
So the Wii was a failure too? Publishers also abandoned that platform years before its successor was released.
Media Molecule's games are both critically and commercially big for Sony's releases.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I am not going into the "why-is-LBP-a-sub-par-platformer" discussion unless I have to.
I am sure Heavy Rain was successful in those regards as well, doesn't make it terrible.
Naughty Dog making a Vita title is pivotal, I feel, especially seeing how Golden Abyss turned out compared to the mainline entries.
You don't have to like a game to recognize its success.
mescalineeyes
Banned
A game has to be more than successful to sell systems.
I think in a discussion like this, the only thing you can do is look at the objective measurements of success. If you don't like LBP, that's cool of course, but I don't like Wipeout, that doesn't mean Liverpool aren't important either.
I don't think ND working on PSV is at all pivotal. I think them doing what they want is pivotal.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Honestly, I'd (personally) rather have ND work on "real" console games, but I think it shows a lack of confidence that their top-dogs (no pun intended) all but shun the platform.
For me as someone with a vested interest in the platform succeeding, this is not good news.
The Vita is a damn fine console, but so far all but 2 games feel like c-tier efforts from b-teams (while the power of the franchises is essentially d-tier. I love WipEout, but hardly anyone else gives a shit about that franchise, especially not enough to buy a console for.).
Yeah, you have the "make" a lot of "these games", to sell systems.
And they do!
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
RAD is not first party.
LiquidSolid
Member
The difference between ND and Infinity Ward seems pretty obvious. Are ND trying to crush Uncharted: Golden Abyss because another developer dared touch the series they created? No. Infinity Ward was run by people who seemed to think they were more important than the company paying their wages and they were already looking to leave before Activision fired them (not that Activision are the good guys, I think both sides are dicks).
From what I can tell, Naughty Dog are nothing like that. They know their spot in the company and are doing incredibly well in it, enough to expand to two teams. I somehow doubt they'd be egotistical enough to get bitchy about being forced to work on a system like the Vita. Any good developer wouldn't, as they should be able to design a good game for any type of system.
Unlike the PSP, both Wii hardware and software sales were both great. But yeah, I'd definitely say the Wii ended up doing a PSP in the last year or so. Nintendo's first party releases still managed to maintain interest long after publishers ditched them but ultimately, once they shifted their focus to the 3DS, the Wii was done. If they'd put more effort into expanding their studios and had better third party relations, maybe they could've prevented that.
This in itself isn't that big of a deal, but it really does show how the Vita is essentially doomed to continually be the spin-off and remake machine. The only audience this really is going to affect though is the hardcore gaming market (although this is also the only market Sony is marketing right now for the Vita...), I don't think a majority of the gaming populace is going to realize that Sony's main teams are giving the cold shoulder to their own handheld.
Also, doesn't Nintendo do this to some degree? Luigi's Mansion 2 is by Next Level Games, Ocarina of Time 3D was by Grezzo, Pilotwings 3DS was by Monster Games, etc.
So there's probably an equal amount of major Sony teams on the Vita as there are major Nintendo teams on the 3DS, or at least it is much closer than this topic suggests.
Also, doesn't Nintendo do this to some degree? Luigi's Mansion 2 is by Next Level Games, Ocarina of Time 3D was by Grezzo, Pilotwings 3DS was by Monster Games, etc.
So there's probably an equal amount of major Sony teams on the Vita as there are major Nintendo teams on the 3DS, or at least it is much closer than this topic suggests.
I think it will get all the big franchises, it has UC, that's third, GoW and GT are bound to be coming. Sony are throwing a lot of support behind the system, it's really a question of which specific teams, but that's a question of taste. You could look at things like sales and metacritic scores, which I think is far, but as ND haven't made handheld games, we don't know how well they would be received. There's lots of people who think Bend are incredible, I am not amongst them, but that doesn't make me right.
I do feel like Sony are in that can't catch a break situation. PS4 is going to be a far more important system for them than PSV is, they need their top people on there. If Sony were too annouce all their top studios were working on PSV, there'd be a lot of 'lol' 'DOA' posts, followed by outrage over the prospective of PS4 being four years in before it sees a title from their top studios.
If Sony should be treating PSV as second tier or not is a fair debate, but there's no doubt they are.
The whole issue should be just simply turned around: what if Naughty Dog expanded with a handheld-focused new substudio, where the new people could learn from the PS3 dev team's strength, experience and mentality?
And that is not forcing anything on ND, but expanding the name to fit the additional needs of Sony.
And that is not forcing anything on ND, but expanding the name to fit the additional needs of Sony.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
100% with you on this one. If developers think that they are too hot for Vita let them find another job. Very few studios if anyone give its developers the freedom that Sony gives its own.
lol, that certainly wasn't what dragged THQ down. Really poor comparison.
You just don't get how the industry works. Many people are in it because it's something they're passionate about. People join the game industry knowing there are going to be longer hours and less pay/benefits compared to a similar position in a different industry, because the tradeoff is a fun and creative environment where you can work on things you love. Now... it certainly doesn't always work that way, because I doubt anyone dreams about working on licensed dreck, but someone has to make it. Just like someone has to make the handheld games. But the people making those typically aren't the top tier talent, they're the people advancing their careers to move up and out of that. The best and brightest of the industry don't have to work on projects that don't interest them, and their talent is such that they can dictate that... and that's part of the allure of the job.
Sure, there are some people out there who truly love handhelds, and there are some people out there who get a kick out of seeing how much they can draw out of less powerful hardware, but it simply isn't something that motivates the majority of western developers.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Such a good line to end your post on.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I am actually rather surprised that Naughty Dog actually directly responded in this thread, and even saying "nope!" openly like that.
I can understand if, for example, it's to dispel news from some random site or blogger, but this is a statement that came from Sony itself. To said "nope!" like that is like openly admitting to the public that there's this hilarious disconnect between the folks at ND and the folks at Sony--a rather bad image that I'm not sure is a wise thing to imply since ND is fully owned by Sony after all.
I can understand if, for example, it's to dispel news from some random site or blogger, but this is a statement that came from Sony itself. To said "nope!" like that is like openly admitting to the public that there's this hilarious disconnect between the folks at ND and the folks at Sony--a rather bad image that I'm not sure is a wise thing to imply since ND is fully owned by Sony after all.
Speaking of Naughty Dog, their Uncharted TV in Uncharted 3 promotes:
- videos from UC3 making off and multiplayer, as expected;
- a trailer for the Uncharted Dual Pack;
- a trailer for The Last of Us.
- Nothing, nada, jack, zilch on Uncharted: Golden Abyss.
I think Amy Hennig is essential to the Uncharted franchise. Without her writing Uncharted 3 would get slaughtered for the mediocre game that it is.
- videos from UC3 making off and multiplayer, as expected;
- a trailer for the Uncharted Dual Pack;
- a trailer for The Last of Us.
- Nothing, nada, jack, zilch on Uncharted: Golden Abyss.
I think Amy Hennig is essential to the Uncharted franchise. Without her writing Uncharted 3 would get slaughtered for the mediocre game that it is.
LiquidSolid
Member
Not even close. If you pay attention to Nintendo's releases, you'll notice that most of their studios tend to be swapped between their systems. So you typically tend to get a couple of years of really great support for one system (let's say the DS), then another is launched (say, the Wii) and they start shifting studios over to work on that and so on. Support doesn't tend to completely dry up when they switch but I think the decrease in releases is pretty noticeable. EAD Tokyo went from Mario Galaxy 2 to Mario 3D Land, Retro Studios went from Donkey Kong Country to Mario Kart 7, etc.
Expand it to second party developers and there's a little company called Game Freak.
That's one of the reasons why I thought they'd expanded to two teams in the first place. But instead it's "more console games! lol handhelds!".
mescalineeyes
Banned
GameFreak is that Naughty Dog situation. They believe Pokemon works best in the context of person to person play, and that portable gaming is the form factor that fits it best, and because they're amongst Nintendo's top people, they get to do what they want. You get Pokemon games on the consoles, but they pale in comparison, and aren't by the same people.
EDIT: I guess technically GF isn't owned by Nintendo, so it's not quite the same, but similar.
EDIT: I guess technically GF isn't owned by Nintendo, so it's not quite the same, but similar.
Don't lump zipper with other great sony studios. If there is one developer from sony that deserves the firesale it's those guys who managed to ruin one of the greatest game series ever in socom. Seth luisi, i hope you're proud of what you have accomplished.
Anyways back to the thread, i can see where some people are coming from. How can you expect your hardware to succeed if you dont put your best teams behind it?
Personally i want a gran turismo vita
Anyways back to the thread, i can see where some people are coming from. How can you expect your hardware to succeed if you dont put your best teams behind it?
Personally i want a gran turismo vita
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