It was clearly a transition period, there's not much they could have done honestly.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
What Happened to Paper Mario? (HyperBitHero)
- Thread starter VDenter
- Start date
It was clearly a transition period, there's not much they could have done honestly.
Metroid Prime Federation Force, Animal Crossing Amiibo Party, and Chibi Robo Ziplash sure.
But none of the other games I mentioned fit that profile. How was Color Splash low budget filler compared to previous Paper Mario games? How was Paper Jam low budget filler compared to previous Mario and Luigi games? Tokyo Mirage Sessions, while not a huge big budget project, was certainly not what I think of when I hear "low budget filler." And Star Fox Zero had Miyamoto directing it, Platinum Games collaborating, and a center stage presentation at E3 2015's Direct. It wasn't lack of money and effort that was the problem here.
TheDinoman
Member
Paper Jam seems like it was done by the cheap, considering it basically just reuses assets from Dream Team and Sticker Star. Likewise, Star Fox Zero was just a gimmicky tech demo for the gamepad that clearly had a shoestring budget.
Besides maybe Color Splash, the only game on your list there that wasn't totally cheap filler was Tokyo Mirage Sessions, which was actually announced back in early 2013.
Pokemaniac
Member
Not the best breakdown I've seen of this but I agree with the overall point.
Color Splash was sort of a step in the right direction, but they managed to almost exclusively target a lot of the more surface issues with Sticker Star while leaving the core problems largely untouched. Like, the writing is better in general, but the story never goes anywhere, and all the characters are still largely indistinguishable Toads. They added those hammer bit things that you get after battles, but paint is so abundant that they rarely matter. They telegraph the Things needed for bosses better but the core idea of bosses where you're screwed if you don't have exactly the right item is still really bad. Overall the game is just super tedious to play.
At this point, they either need to return to the series roots, or change it to something different that isn't full of half-baked ideas. The current trajectory of the series just isn't working, and I hope that this will be able to ride Nintendo's recent surge in creativity.
Color Splash was sort of a step in the right direction, but they managed to almost exclusively target a lot of the more surface issues with Sticker Star while leaving the core problems largely untouched. Like, the writing is better in general, but the story never goes anywhere, and all the characters are still largely indistinguishable Toads. They added those hammer bit things that you get after battles, but paint is so abundant that they rarely matter. They telegraph the Things needed for bosses better but the core idea of bosses where you're screwed if you don't have exactly the right item is still really bad. Overall the game is just super tedious to play.
At this point, they either need to return to the series roots, or change it to something different that isn't full of half-baked ideas. The current trajectory of the series just isn't working, and I hope that this will be able to ride Nintendo's recent surge in creativity.
Exactly. Like, it's funny, but it's still stuffed with generic toads, and the game part absolutely sucks.
I dunno, most were still fine with SPM (at least in retrospect).
Common Knowledge
Member
With SPM, I feel like most people took it as a Paper Mario spin-off game rather than a core entry of the series (at the time when it was released, I mean). Especially considering it was announced pretty quickly after TTYD. I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, thought there would be an actual Paper Mario 3 shortly after. I think that's why a lot of people were more accepting of it.
I guess, yeah. Maybe that's where they should take the series now, into weird spin-off territory so they don't have to drag along the past with them?
The Paper-Link idea floated in a thread last week was absolutely fab to me.
EDIT: That said, I don't think re-skinning either SS or CS as they are would make them good games (though I would actively dislike them way less).
After Arlo's video about Paper Mario and the Gamexplain interview with the producer i kind of wanna cry that we lost yet another great series.
Color Splash is not a game im gonna replay just because it looks pretty, sounds good and does some things better than Sticker Star.
If i wanna replay a paper mario for any of those reasons its called Thousand Year Door and it CRUSHES those two.
Color Splash is not a game im gonna replay just because it looks pretty, sounds good and does some things better than Sticker Star.
If i wanna replay a paper mario for any of those reasons its called Thousand Year Door and it CRUSHES those two.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
It's always weird for me to see these kinds of arguments when I always felt the same way about Paper Mario that he feels about Mario & Luigi.
Super Mario RPG was the better game over all of them and Paper Mario always felt like a huge step down to me. I'm afraid we'll never hit the highs of SMRG again.
Super Mario RPG was the better game over all of them and Paper Mario always felt like a huge step down to me. I'm afraid we'll never hit the highs of SMRG again.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I loved Color Splash and Sticker Star, and Super Paper Mario was a fun experiment. Honestly I like that they've taken the series in experimental directions. With the Mario and Luigi series saying more the classic Super Mario RPG route, we get the best of both worlds. I do wonder if they COULD top TTYD though... They just have to try...
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Mario RPG is neat, but it's really just JRPG: The JRPG with some minor gimmicks (the game doesn't get as much out of the timed hit concept or unique action commands as Paper Mario does) and some fairly cool world / level design. I think everything that was good about SMRPG was handled much more smartly in Paper Mario - the latter has its own identity as a reasonably complex, well-balanced strategy game, which SMRPG can't really claim to have.
HyperBitHero
Member
I think it was probably one of my best closer sections to a video.
Linkstrikesback
Member
I will not stand for your insulting Tokyo mirage sessions. Game was a top tier atlus RPG. Just because it was stuck on Wii u and a number of people were upset it was more persona than SMT (reminder: persona is vastly more popular but still originated under the SMT brand) doesn't make it any worse a game.
If anything, the only problem with TMS that hurt sales was not sitting on it until switch because they teased it early.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Yeah. Neither TMS or Color Splash were games that rolled off an assembly line.
SolidChamp
Banned
Just give me the first two goddamn games in HD remaster form Nintendo, for fuck sake.
HyperBitHero
Member
Same, do something completely different so I don't even need to compare it to older games.
Isn't that kind of what they are doing, which is the problem in the eyes of some fans?
I mean, the only thing is has in common with the RPG Paper Marios, beyond the name, is the timed hits, which isn't even a Paper Mario mechanic, but one from Super Mario RPG (and one that the Mario and Luigi series uses as well).
Heck, didn't you say in your video that it was original called Mario Story in Japan and they've moved further towards the paper theme with the latest games? Slowly moving away from its roots as the originally titled Super Mario RPG 2.
HyperBitHero
Member
What is completely different about it? It's the same but hollow and bad. It's a lackluster adventure game with mimicking turn based battles that result in a much worse, pointless experience. And by different I mean don't even call it Paper Mario. Make a different spin off. There is really no need for it to even be paper. Just make some other adventure game with Mario. It can be in any art style, something they actually want to make, that would actually fit that style of gameplay.
Color Splash was amazing, tbh. Had much more charm than any of the previous entries, and the level design is the best the series has seen. I actually enjoyed the combat, especially once you unlock more slots. Trying to figure the best combo to knock out every enemy in a single turn, feels great. But it won't be for everyone. The game is a serious gem, though. Hope the port it to the Switch, cause I'd double dip.
The Paper Mario series to me was always about being a way to experience Mario lore in the context of a world rather than a gameplay setting. The enemy variety, level design, and companions all helped me revel in the charm and expansiveness of the Mario franchise.
I can't remember a single thing from Sticker Star or Super Paper Mario aside from a villain in a top hat from one of those games. Whereas in the first two entries, I fondly remember every companion's name and persoanlity, and in the case of TTYD, most locales, bosses, major story beats, and some random enemies and NPC's that were personal favourites.
Mario & Luigi always had superior gameplay systems but Paper Mario delievered on being engrossed in the world of Mario like no other games in the series. That to me, is the current state of the franchise's biggest failure.
I never played the latest entry because Sticker Star killed me inside but reading all these comments makes me feel like I have to go play Color Splash now.
I can't remember a single thing from Sticker Star or Super Paper Mario aside from a villain in a top hat from one of those games. Whereas in the first two entries, I fondly remember every companion's name and persoanlity, and in the case of TTYD, most locales, bosses, major story beats, and some random enemies and NPC's that were personal favourites.
Mario & Luigi always had superior gameplay systems but Paper Mario delievered on being engrossed in the world of Mario like no other games in the series. That to me, is the current state of the franchise's biggest failure.
I never played the latest entry because Sticker Star killed me inside but reading all these comments makes me feel like I have to go play Color Splash now.
Oh no, SPM is my favorite Nintendo game of all time. Not the best, mind you, just my favorite. It's so bold and cool and awesome, with hilarious writing and an interesting story. It has a bizarre art style which I love, and the character design is fantastic. It subverts players' expectations, forces you to do repetitive tasks on purpose, has several deliberate annoying scenes and things like that. I love it.
Toadthemushroom
Member
This so much. Though it feels like the sort of game Nintendo will consign to the Wii U. It does, going from this thread, feel like most the people who played Color Splash really enjoyed it, so I'm hoping people will only grow more fond of it over time.
It's definitely a game I'll remember in 5-10 years' time.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I think I've seen this before. I responded to it earlier in the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245603312&postcount=60
I agree with your point in an earlier post about the series' branding, though, but it needn't be that way - generations of players change, and someone younger's first Paper Mario might not have been TTYD but Color Splash. Color Splash is a fine game for what it sets out to do (it doesn't feel out of place as a Paper Mario game at all), but I see where you're coming from:
For instance, Mario U was hampered by looking similar to previous games despite actually being the best NSMB game. I bet a rebrand and a new art direction would have done wonders for its reception.
That was Mario U, which was still perceivably similar to previous 2D Marios. I think your comparisons (stating Color Splash is similar to the previous games and doing less of the same) are superficial.
I agree it's a good game, but at the same time it's hugely flawed as well
I can completely understand why some people dislike it. The combat is slow and dull and compared to the earlier games almost pointless. It's a remnant from when the series was an RPG and they have tried to fit this into a game that is no longer an RPG, and it's anything but elegant. This isn't going to be something most people will be able to overlook. It gets in the way of the adventuring side of the game by constantly interrupting and annoying the player and the rewards for engaging in it are minimal. On top of that it's simply not a satisfying combat system in it's own right
I don't think any of the points in the video are unreasonable, though some are clearly down to personal opinion. I don't think Hyper enjoyed the writing or script in CS whereas to me that was one of the games high points
If you have played the first two games in the series (especially recently) then it's hard to see the later games as their own thing when they're so clearly a downgrade from the earlier games in several ways
Yea, I could totally see how someone that played sticker star or color splash first would be okay with them.
For long time fans like me though, sticker star took away everything that made me like the first two games. Gameplay, partners, story, chapters, original characters, etc.
Pokemaniac
Member
The problem is that what they're doing isn't different enough. It'd be one thing if they actually made a full adventure game, but they feel the need to keep in a vestigial turn based battle system which not only is a shadow of it's former self, but doesn't mesh well with the new mechanics elsewhere. The Paper Mario games are going to continue to disappoint unless they either bring the battles back into focus get rid of the turn based mechanics entirely.
Though, this is ignoring the other big issues of story and character and enemy design, where they seem to be consistently choosing the most generic option possible, but that is a somewhat different conversation.
HyperBitHero
Member
I completely disagree. Color Splash absolutely feels out of place as a Paper Mario game. Honestly, the only way you can even defend Color Splash is to emphasize how different it is, so that people try to look at it as its own thing. What you do, the story, characters, personality, style of humor, and even just how forced the "paper" theme of the game is, puts it at odds with the original games.
eXistor
Member
Do you really just want the same game over and over? Color Splash works because it's different. The games haven't been rpg's since SPM, they've become action/adventure games.
Not exactly sure how SPM is more of the same while Color Splash is not? Color Splash was basically Sticker Star on steroids. Super Paper Mario feels much more like its own thing.
There are only two Paper Mario RPG's. Wanting a third is hardly overkill.
I mean you basically contradicted yourself.
For one, color splash is more of the same of sticker star. You said since SPM, the series has become action/adventure. So then people should want more of that even though they shouldn't want more of the rpg style?
Plus there were only two rpg games, while there have been 3 non rpg ones, so if anything wanting more rpg styles games would be wanting the minority.
Toadthemushroom
Member
That's semantics, because Nintendo did the same thing with the first formula: TTYD followed in Paper Mario 64's footsteps.
The point is, Color Splash wouldn't have existed in the first place if there wasn't a desire to do something new and instead keep using the Paper Mario 64 Template. Just because it follows on (and does a great job) with the template of a previous, all-new concept for the series doesn't make it any less important. But if Nintendo kept rolling out the formula for 5 games maybe you'd have a point.
It looks like they aren't making a third game in the vein of Color Splash, by the way:
Kensuke Tanabe said:
Amibguous Cad
Member
There isn't anywhere near enough defense of super paper mario here. I miss the old RPGs in the series but SPM was one of the best games o. The Wii.
The fanfiction story of Super Paper Mario and the horrible original characters were so bad they had to regress to just the safe Mushroom Kingdom stuff in future games.
While I agree that the first two games are the best, I really enjoyed Sticker Star and look forward to playing Color Splash one day.
While I agree that the first two games are the best, I really enjoyed Sticker Star and look forward to playing Color Splash one day.
"Color Splash reuses assets from TTYD"
This is... wrong. Egregiously so. Compare the way Koopas and Goombas look in TTYD to the way they look in Color Splash.
In fact, different assets is something I actually have a problem with when it comes to Color Splash, because while I do applaud them for updating the assets, several characters like Boos completely lost their sense of expression going from Thousand-Year Door to the Sticker/Color series.
Despite finding it an improvement over it's predecessor for its structure fixes I have issues with Color Splash - I feel it proves how the battle system is completely archaic and if Nintendo want to continue down this kind of road they should completely embrace an adventure game setup instead of this "meeting halfway with RPG roots" compromise - but at least vet your statements.
This is... wrong. Egregiously so. Compare the way Koopas and Goombas look in TTYD to the way they look in Color Splash.
In fact, different assets is something I actually have a problem with when it comes to Color Splash, because while I do applaud them for updating the assets, several characters like Boos completely lost their sense of expression going from Thousand-Year Door to the Sticker/Color series.
Despite finding it an improvement over it's predecessor for its structure fixes I have issues with Color Splash - I feel it proves how the battle system is completely archaic and if Nintendo want to continue down this kind of road they should completely embrace an adventure game setup instead of this "meeting halfway with RPG roots" compromise - but at least vet your statements.
bigDdestruction
Member
I never played TTYD but this video totally sold me on it. Would be nice for a 3DS version of the game or even switch version.
"Color Splash reuses assets from TTYD"
This is... wrong. Egregiously so. Compare the way Koopas and Goombas look in TTYD to the way they look in Color Splash.
In fact, different assets is something I actually have a problem with when it comes to Color Splash, because while I do applaud them for updating the assets, several characters like Boos completely lost their sense of expression going from Thousand-Year Door to the Sticker/Color series.
Despite finding it an improvement over it's predecessor for its structure fixes I have issues with Color Splash - I feel it proves how the battle system is completely archaic and if Nintendo want to continue down this kind of road they should completely embrace an adventure game setup instead of this "meeting halfway with RPG roots" compromise - but at least vet your statements.
I really miss the sprites and looks of all the enemies in the first three games. Goombas looked way better with the bigger eyebrows and teeth. Boos also especially looked better.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Ditto. I love SPM. It still feels like you're advancing as you defeat enemies. The other two games look like they removed any incentive to fight at all. So what's the point?
Just give us a brand new regular standard Paper Mario game on the Switch. Or alternatively, release HD ports of the first two games. Man, the emulator the video creator was using made TTYD look amazing. I want to play that version.
cartman414
Member
Amen. Mario RPG felt like a revisiting of Square's Greatest (design) Hits, with an unfortunate portent of their penchant for questionable crossover work original character designs (see: Kingdom Hearts).
If Mario RPG was "Pablo Honey" era Radiohead, Paper Mario was "The Bends".
HyperBitHero
Member
Color Splash isn't different. It's like if you took all of the elements and then just did them poorly. Poor turn based battles, poor world, poor characters, poor story. How can it be new and original like you're claiming if it really does nothing new? Also, cut it out with this hyperbole about wanting the games to go back to being good = wanting the same thing over and over again. Like as if having a third game in any series in the same genre is some kind of unoriginal thing. There are plenty of games that get more sequels than Paper Mario, yet had less changes and innovations than 64 to TTYD. You can't discredit fans wanting their series to go back to having the gameplay it was founded on by pulling it out of your ass that that would somehow create worse games. It's illogical, and even the producer agrees this gameplay style used in SS and CS has no future.
Your Entertainer
Member
Agreed. There are tons of ways to advance on the gameplay ideas in TTYD and produce an awesome bonafide successor. As the video states, it seems as if the following games are entirely planned around a gimmicky concept first and foremost, rather than solid fundamentals. PM and TTYD were 10x more thoughtful, better crafted and just better games.
Green Mamba
Member
Sticker Star dropping basically all of the old enemy designs in favor of being NSMB accurate is one of the game's greatest unsung sins. Those poor, poor Boos.
God, thinking about Sticker Star just gets me angry.
Even if they ever go back to the style of the first two games, which is incredibly unlikely, mind, they'd still have those awful new enemy designs. I can't even imagine a modern Lady Bow.
But I don't have to, because they're never going back to populating the series with new characters again. We'd be lucky to ever see a female Toad again (outside a chance Toadette appearance).
God, thinking about Sticker Star just gets me angry.
Even if they ever go back to the style of the first two games, which is incredibly unlikely, mind, they'd still have those awful new enemy designs. I can't even imagine a modern Lady Bow.
But I don't have to, because they're never going back to populating the series with new characters again. We'd be lucky to ever see a female Toad again (outside a chance Toadette appearance).
HyperBitHero
Member
"Color Splash reuses assets from TTYD"
This is... wrong. Egregiously so. Compare the way Koopas and Goombas look in TTYD to the way they look in Color Splash.
In fact, different assets is something I actually have a problem with when it comes to Color Splash, because while I do applaud them for updating the assets, several characters like Boos completely lost their sense of expression going from Thousand-Year Door to the Sticker/Color series.
Despite finding it an improvement over it's predecessor for its structure fixes I have issues with Color Splash - I feel it proves how the battle system is completely archaic and if Nintendo want to continue down this kind of road they should completely embrace an adventure game setup instead of this "meeting halfway with RPG roots" compromise - but at least vet your statements.
Wow, these all look worse, great point. Regardless, you completely miss my point. Mainly I was talking about the main characters, but even then, my point was about them not changing the art styles of these characters. Just because they slightly changed that goomba and koopa to have less personality and life, doesn't negate my point that they still look straight out of TTYD, while 64 and TTYD had different art style for the characters.
This is independent of the actual world assets which are obviously different in CS.
(Edit : Sorry if there are mistakes, English isn't my native language)
My two cents : I think each Paper Mario game has its own qualities and flaws, so they are all worth to play.
In my opinion, Color Splash and Paper Mario 64 are the best entries in the series. They are very charming, have a good level-design (especially Color Splash), nice combat system, good soundtrack (especially Color Splash), and each place in these games has its own little and charming story or original idea (some of these ideas are really genius).
Super Paper Mario is also very good, with a nice side-scroller Action-RPG gameplay, the 2D/3D gameplay idea (although it's a little too underused), the best story in entire Mario series (even better than each Mario & Luigi's story, it's also the darker and saddest story in the series), the best side-quests (the two pits with 100 levels of fights are incredible trials). This game has problems (some levels are really too empty or repetitive in their level-design), but it has a strong personality.
Paper Mario Sticker Star is nice, because this game has a good level-design, good puzzles (except for the "things" which are too tedious to use, it was largely improved in Color Splash), very good soundtrack, good 3D graphics. It's biggest flaw is that it's background is too light, there is no story, no character (except the Wiggler who is nice), no narrative (except the Snifit TV game and the incredible haunted mansion level).
About Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, I think this game is nice, but totally overestimated. It is very good to play it for the first time, but its replay value is horrible : too much back-tracking, the worst level-design in the entire series (it was terrible for me to play it again just after Color Splash and even just after Paper Mario 64).
I'm always very surprised that many people complain about Super Paper Mario's flaws (some empty levels, repetitive and uninteresting tasks, or some levels without gameplay) but are so indulgent with Paper Mario TYD that has exactly the same flaws than SPM's. It's even worse in TYD, because I think these flaws are harder to bear in an RPG with turn-based (and often unavoidable) combats (it's tedious in chapter 4 and 5 with a lot of back-tracking, or the horrible chapter 7 with the white general Bob-Omb) than in a side-scroller Action-RPG like Super Paper Mario. I think people should replay TYD : they'll have a bad surprise, after all the other Paper Mario games offered to us. I was very surprised to realize that I had more fun replaying Super Paper Mario than replaying Paper Mario TYD.
Now, you can throw stones at me. ^^
My two cents : I think each Paper Mario game has its own qualities and flaws, so they are all worth to play.
In my opinion, Color Splash and Paper Mario 64 are the best entries in the series. They are very charming, have a good level-design (especially Color Splash), nice combat system, good soundtrack (especially Color Splash), and each place in these games has its own little and charming story or original idea (some of these ideas are really genius).
Super Paper Mario is also very good, with a nice side-scroller Action-RPG gameplay, the 2D/3D gameplay idea (although it's a little too underused), the best story in entire Mario series (even better than each Mario & Luigi's story, it's also the darker and saddest story in the series), the best side-quests (the two pits with 100 levels of fights are incredible trials). This game has problems (some levels are really too empty or repetitive in their level-design), but it has a strong personality.
Paper Mario Sticker Star is nice, because this game has a good level-design, good puzzles (except for the "things" which are too tedious to use, it was largely improved in Color Splash), very good soundtrack, good 3D graphics. It's biggest flaw is that it's background is too light, there is no story, no character (except the Wiggler who is nice), no narrative (except the Snifit TV game and the incredible haunted mansion level).
About Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, I think this game is nice, but totally overestimated. It is very good to play it for the first time, but its replay value is horrible : too much back-tracking, the worst level-design in the entire series (it was terrible for me to play it again just after Color Splash and even just after Paper Mario 64).
I'm always very surprised that many people complain about Super Paper Mario's flaws (some empty levels, repetitive and uninteresting tasks, or some levels without gameplay) but are so indulgent with Paper Mario TYD that has exactly the same flaws than SPM's. It's even worse in TYD, because I think these flaws are harder to bear in an RPG with turn-based (and often unavoidable) combats (it's tedious in chapter 4 and 5 with a lot of back-tracking, or the horrible chapter 7 with the white general Bob-Omb) than in a side-scroller Action-RPG like Super Paper Mario. I think people should replay TYD : they'll have a bad surprise, after all the other Paper Mario games offered to us. I was very surprised to realize that I had more fun replaying Super Paper Mario than replaying Paper Mario TYD.
Now, you can throw stones at me. ^^