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RecRoulette
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Honestly you guys are way too hung up on Smash Bros. anyway, most of my example was about ARMS - Smash Bros. is more traditional and has some of the things I complain about, just not to the same level.

People who try to sell noobs on fighting games often talk about the importance of fundamentals and spacing and timing, and ARMS makes that its bread and butter and cuts out the input barrier for special moves.

Sure, I like my Nintendo games, but I literally asked in the post if anyone's done anything similarly. Dead or Alive or BlazBlue just are not doing the same thing. Something like Nidhogg is also on a different level than those.

You're wrong on Arms too, once you factor in curving punches it becomes way more technical than a a lot of games.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by RecRoulette

You're wrong on Arms too, once you factor in curving punches it becomes way more technical than a a lot of games.

The point is that the games are incredibly accessible to beginners even if they're hard to master.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by RecRoulette

You're wrong on Arms too, once you factor in curving punches it becomes way more technical than a a lot of games.

But there's nothing unintuitive about "aim your arms where the opponent is or will be". Yeah, it's hard, but it doesn't require a button combo.
sanstesy
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:35 AM)
Smash Bros works so well because of the unique item system and stages. Casual people only know the basic inputs but the item system basically makes it so shallow fighting becomes actually exciting for everyone not wanting to learn advanced inputs like guarding.
RecRoulette
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(07-17-2017, 06:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

The point is that the games are incredibly accessible to beginners even if they're hard to master.

From the OP:

Like, as I improve I'm understanding it's all about positioning and timing - worrying about the execution of input is not a thing in this game.

This is wrong. Execution is extremely important.
MegaPanda
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:36 AM)
Combos are important in fighting games. Tekken & Injustice have relatively simple inputs.
You can play them casually and just poke each other to death with fundamentals & spacing, but you're still going to die to better players though who can convert hits from 5% to 50% of your health bar.
KillLaCam
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:36 AM)
Is it more simple than NRS inputs?
LCGeek
formerly sane
(07-17-2017, 06:36 AM)
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No but between Switch, Nes, and the smash franchise I wish they would try their quirky fighting games more often.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by RecRoulette

From the OP:



This is wrong. Execution is extremely important.

My point with that is "special move" button combos. They don't exist in ARMS. Yes, games are about executing inputs. But I don't have to memorize, I just have to get good at timing and reading the opponent.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:37 AM)

Originally Posted by Stopdoor

But there's nothing unintuitive about "aim your arms where the opponent is or will be". Yeah, it's hard, but it doesn't require a button combo.

What's the difference

No matter what competitive game you play, there is going to be a point where PRACTICE is the difference between winning and losing

It literally does not matter what the action itself is. You're always going to run into the same problem.
dracula_x
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by exfatal

Smash
Arms
Pokken

Yeah all are alot simpler inputs then other games thats for sure, They need to make a 3d Zelda fighting game or license one out.

So basically Namco :)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1392819
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

What's the difference

No matter what competitive game you play, there is going to be a point where PRACTICE is the difference between winning and losing

It literally does not matter what the action itself is. You're always going to run into the same problem.

it's a lot more fun to practice by facing actual opponents from the get go rather than having to spend a few hours practicing in training mode before you can even be proficient enough that playing other people is worthwhile
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

it's a lot more fun to practice by facing actual opponents from the get go rather than having to spend a few hours practicing in training mode before you can even be proficient enough that playing other people is worthwhile

Yeah, I really don't know why this argument is hard to grasp.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:42 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

it's a lot more fun to practice by facing actual opponents from the get go rather than having to spend a few hours practicing in training mode before you can even be proficient enough that playing other people is worthwhile

I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who wants to face opponents but not have to practice to beat them. What is even the point???

You really can't spend a few hours mastering the most basic inputs a fighting game can even require of you?

You have to learn them once. one time. And you never have to learn them again.


If you want to just press buttons, then fight the AI. That should be enough satisfaction lol.

Asking for a game to allow you to beat real humans without ever practicing just logically doesn't make sense. You'll be fighting at the shit end of the pool forever.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who wants to face opponents but not have to practice to beat them. What is even the point???

You really can't spend a few hours mastering the most basic inputs a fighting game can even require of you?

You have to learn them once. one time. And you never have to learn them again.

There's literally nothing more dull or frustrating than spending hours on end trying to get down the most basic mechanics so that you have a chance to play a game and actually have fun with it.

If a game requires hours to master the "basics", that is a huge fundamental problem with said game
NightmareTrigger
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

My point with that is "special move" button combos. They don't exist in ARMS. Yes, games are about executing inputs. But I don't have to memorize, I just have to get good at timing and reading the opponent.

In the time you've spent writing up the OP, let alone replying in the thread, you could've picked up a new "traditional" fighting game, found a character you like, played with them some, looked at their move list and memorized some special moves, and maybe even learned that those "hard to learn" inputs are mostly general across all the characters in the game and "traditional" fighting games in general.
Quebaz
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:45 AM)
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Just play Gundam
tenderbrew
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(07-17-2017, 06:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who wants to face opponents but not have to practice to beat them. What is even the point???

You really can't spend a few hours mastering the most basic inputs a fighting game can even require of you?

You have to learn them once. one time. And you never have to learn them again.

I think the type of inputs is the key here. I'm never going to able to execute a button string of half circles and precisely timed strings no matter how much I practice or how many fight sticks I buy. I don't mind practicing to get good at Arms or Pokken because the skill is in nuance.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

I simply cannot understand the mindset of someone who wants to face opponents but not have to practice to beat them. What is even the point???

You really can't spend a few hours mastering the most basic inputs a fighting game can even require of you?

You have to learn them once. one time. And you never have to learn them again.


If you want to just press buttons, then fight the AI. That should be enough satisfaction lol.

Asking for a game to allow you to beat real humans without ever practicing just logically doesn't make sense. You'll be fighting at the shit end of the pool forever.

What do you mean one time? Every character comes with their button combos to memorize. ARMS doesn't have that and still manages depth, so why not more games?
Professor Beef
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the cheat codes needed for special moves and combos.

wanna know how i can tell your thread is disingenuous
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by NightmareTrigger

In the time you've spent writing up the OP, let alone replying in the thread, you could've picked up a new "traditional" fighting game, found a character you like, played with them some, looked at their move list and memorized some special moves, and maybe even learned that those "hard to learn" inputs are mostly general across all the characters in the game and "traditional" fighting games in general.

I don't believe ya. Sure, similarities exist, but there's miles of button combos there, and I'm a casual noob who wants to hop characters anyway. ARMS lets me do that, Smash Bros. lets me do that, and I can be basically competent.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:47 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

There's literally nothing more dull or frustrating than spending hours on end trying to get down the most basic mechanics so that you have a chance to play a game and actually have fun with it.

If a game requires hours to master the "basics", that is a huge fundamental problem with said game

No, that's a fundamental problem with YOU. The game is literally giving you tools to use, and you're refusing to use them simply because you're too lazy to be bothered.

There's no rule that says that you HAVE to learn how to play the game before you fight people. The game doesn't stop you...you're just going to get your ass fired on, by people who actually want to improve, unlike you, who wants to turn the game on and press buttons, and be called good for it.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:47 AM)
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Also, there's a difference between being able to beat human opponents who are skilled and being able to compete with other low ranking players.

In any other genre, requiring hours of mind numbing tedium to teach you how to play before you can actually have any fun with the game is pretty much universally panned
Servbot24
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:48 AM)
I don't know if they're the masters at it, but they have the best example of it in Smash. Tbh I don't think Arms really much good, and there aren't many other examples, which is why I can't say Nintendo is the "master" at simplifying fighting games in particular.
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 06:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

wanna know how i can tell your thread is disingenuous

For real though, I'm serious, what do Punch and Kick do differently in Street Fighter? Like if I only had the Punch and Kick buttons to use for all attacks, ignoring light/medium/heavy, is it just the variation of their hitboxes by character? Is there anything intrinsically different about them? Are kicks stronger than punches? Are punches usually faster? I'm actually curious. None of this is ever explained.
EVO
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(07-17-2017, 06:50 AM)
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I wasn't a fan of it but Lethal League?
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 06:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

No, that's a fundamental problem with YOU. The game is literally giving you tools to use, and you're refusing to use them simply because you're too lazy to be bothered.

There's no rule that says that you HAVE to learn how to play the game before you fight people. The game doesn't stop you...you're just going to get your ass fired on, by people who actually want to improve, unlike you, who wants to turn the game on and press buttons, and be called good for it.

I just want to play 1v1 video games without memorization man, and Nintendo's nailed it.
timetokill
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

The answer is no

:eyeroll:

Okay buddy, thanks for helping establish that fighting games aren't fighting games for... reasons
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 06:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by EVO

I wasn't a fan of it but Lethal League?

Yeah! This is totally what I'm thinking of. Great game, but definitely more hardcore than ARMS in its timing. Goes to show how you can be accessible or hardcore by tweaking traits other than input complexity.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

No, that's a fundamental problem with YOU. The game is literally giving you tools to use, and you're refusing to use them simply because you're too lazy to be bothered.

There's no rule that says that you HAVE to learn how to play the game before you fight people. The game doesn't stop you...you're just going to get your ass fired on, by people who actually want to improve, unlike you, who wants to turn the game on and press buttons, and be called good for it.

Name one other competitve genre where you have to spend hours learning the absolute basics in a tutorial before you're capable of feeling like you can do anything at all online? Nobody is saying you need to be able to win right away, but why should I want to improve based on a promise that it'll be fun eventually when there are plenty of games that are fun and understandable right away. I can go into a shooter and while I'll suck at it and get killed way more often than I can kill, I can still understand the basic mechanics nearly immediately and actually derive enjoyment from the game. I don't expect to be the best from the get go, but I shouldn't have to spend hours learning the absolute basics before I can derive any enjoyment from the game whatsoever. I should be able to learn the nuances by playing people, I shouldn't have to spend hours in training mode before fighting other people is even slightly educational
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:55 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Nobody is saying you need to be able to win right away, but why should I want to improve based on a promise that it'll be fun eventually when there are plenty of games that are fun and understandable right away.

And this here is the exact fundamental problem with you, specifically, that I outlined.

The answer should be self evident. Why on earth would you want to play a competitive game when you aren't even self motivated to overcome any challenges?
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

And this here is the exact fundamental problem with you, specifically, that I outlined.

The answer should be self evident. Why on earth would you want to play a competitive game when you aren't even self motivated to overcome any challenges?

why should I want to improve when the game hasn't even proven itself to be fun yet?

I'm fine with overcoming challenges, but give me a reason to want to overcome them
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 06:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

And this here is the exact fundamental problem with you, specifically, that I outlined.

The answer should be self evident. Why on earth would you want to play a competitive game when you aren't even self motivated to overcome any challenges?

Because I do
Codeblue
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(07-17-2017, 06:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

The answer is no

The closest they've ever come is 64/Melee, but they've since been running away from that stigma as hard as they could.

Brawl's competitive scene imploded. All the top players who play Smash 4 basically hate the game.

The reason its popular is the same reason Street Fighter is popular. People will always enjoy playing it because of what it is lol

Smash will always be popular because it's Smash but Brawl's community imploded? Seems inconsistent.

In any case, you can classify the games how you want, it's sort of irrelevant at this point with how large these communities are.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:58 AM)
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In LITERALLY EVERY OTHER GENRE OF GAMING a multi-hour tutorial that consists of nothing but rote memorization of the absolute basics would be completely panned and blasted because it's fucking awful. Why should fighting games be exempt? You can make a competitive game that teaches you the basics very quickly and still have super high skill ceilings.
Quebaz
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(07-17-2017, 07:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

In LITERALLY EVERY OTHER GENRE OF GAMING a multi-hour tutorial that consists of nothing but rote memorization of the absolute basics would be completely panned and blasted because it's fucking awful. Why should fighting games be exempt? You can make a competitive game that teaches you the basics very quickly and still have super high skill ceilings.

What fighting hame has this multi-hour tutorial exactly?
KillLaCam
Banned
(07-17-2017, 07:01 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

In LITERALLY EVERY OTHER GENRE OF GAMING a multi-hour tutorial that consists of nothing but rote memorization of the absolute basics would be completely panned and blasted because it's fucking awful. Why should fighting games be exempt? You can make a competitive game that teaches you the basics very quickly and still have super high skill ceilings.

What fighting game has a tutorial that long? Even Dead or Alives tutorial is like 15 minutes long.
Servbot24
Banned
(07-17-2017, 07:01 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

In LITERALLY EVERY OTHER GENRE OF GAMING a multi-hour tutorial that consists of nothing but rote memorization of the absolute basics would be completely panned and blasted because it's fucking awful. Why should fighting games be exempt? You can make a competitive game that teaches you the basics very quickly and still have super high skill ceilings.

I don't get this at all. You can play Street Fighter with almost no knowledge, you'll just be beat by people with lots of knowledge.

Hell, chess takes a lot longer to learn the basics, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that's a "fucking awful" game.
MegaPanda
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:01 AM)
I don't get where this multi-hour barricade for fighting games is coming from. You can win online in SFV with Hadokens, DPs and spacing. Don't tell me leaning two inputs takes hours
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 07:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by Quebaz

What fighting hame has this multi-hour tutorial exactly?

I mean I feel like for me when I've tried to get into most fighting games if I don't spend hours learning a character in training mode I'll get utterly and onesidedly curbstomped in any sort of online match to the point where I learn literally nothing that could help me play the game better
Biske
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(07-17-2017, 07:02 AM)
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No. ARMS non motion controls are awful (can get used to em and they are fine but still shitty) and I don't understand how they set it up like they did.
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 07:02 AM)
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Guys, my point here is ARMS just doesn't need this complexity and is still good and has intriguing depth. Maybe we can have more games like that?
Smasher89
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
No, games like Divekick that was mentioned earlier in the thread easily beats them, less "comples inputs" but still feels like it has more depth in some ways when it comes to "tricks to learn".

As a answer to earlier posters, any(thing) competive (at all)game will likely require more then 10 000 hours of learning to actually start to grasp it, no matter which genre, just because you feel you are good at something doesn't really mean you are, unless you actually can back it up by winning the biggest events for it on the planet imo.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

why should I want to improve when the game hasn't even proven itself to be fun yet?

I'm fine with overcoming challenges, but give me a reason to want to overcome them

Improving at the game IS the fun part. The challenge is the reason in itself.

Seeing what other players can do with a character is supposed to be enough to motivate you....

if you look at what other players can do, then look at what's required, and say "its stupid, i shouldn't have to do all this", then you're lying to yourself when you say you want to overcome challenges because you don't.


You want to pick up a game, go online, fight someone, beat them as you are now, and claim that you've overcome something. You want instant gratification, that's all.

If you don't enjoy practicing, learning, being able to do something now that you couldn't do yesterday...then COMPETITIVE GAMES are not for you. It doesnt matter if we're talking about fighting games or chess.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by Servbot24

I don't get this at all. You can play Street Fighter with almost no knowledge, you'll just be beat by people with lots of knowledge.

Hell, chess takes a lot longer to learn the basics, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that's a "fucking awful" game.

Learning the fundementals of chess and being able to feel like your achieving something doesn't take that much effort. If I go into an online Streetfighter match of any sort knowing just the basic inputs I'll get bodied immediately and only be able to get like, one hit in. Unless your arguing that the online tracking systems are so horrible that they have no capability of actually sorting and segregating people by skill based on past records?
Servbot24
Banned
(07-17-2017, 07:05 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I mean I feel like for me when I've tried to get into most fighting games if I don't spend hours learning a character in training mode I'll get utterly and onesidedly curbstomped in any sort of online match to the point where I learn literally nothing that could help me play the game better

This would happen to you if you only played Smash for an hour too

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Learning the fundementals of chess and being able to feel like your achieving something doesn't take that much effort. If I go into an online Streetfighter match of any sort knowing just the basic inputs I'll get bodied immediately and only be able to get like, one hit in. Unless your arguing that the online tracking systems are so horrible that they have no capability of actually sorting and segregating people by skill based on past records?

You'll get bodied in chess too.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 07:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Improving at the game IS the fun part. The challenge is the reason in itself.

Seeing what other players can do with a character is supposed to be enough to motivate you....

if you look at what other players can do, then look at what's required, and say "its stupid, i shouldn't have to do all this", then you're lying to yourself when you say you want to overcome challenges because you don't.

Except I've tried and never been able to improve because without commiting hours to learning the absolutely most basic and fundamental systems I can't even improve by playing other people
KillLaCam
Banned
(07-17-2017, 07:08 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Learning the fundementals of chess and being able to feel like your achieving something doesn't take that much effort. If I go into an online Streetfighter match of any sort knowing just the basic inputs I'll get bodied immediately and only be able to get like, one hit in. Unless your arguing that the online tracking systems are so horrible that they have no capability of actually sorting and segregating people by skill based on past records?

You could play Tekken if it's that hard then. I made it to a decent rank in Tekken 7 just pressing 1 attack button with Katarina.
EVO
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(07-17-2017, 07:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Except I've tried and never been able to improve because without commiting hours to learning the absolutely most basic and fundamental systems I can't even improve by playing other people

Welcome to literally every online game ever.
tenderbrew
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(07-17-2017, 07:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Servbot24

I don't get this at all. You can play Street Fighter with almost no knowledge, you'll just be beat by people with lots of knowledge.

Hell, chess takes a lot longer to learn the basics, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that's a "fucking awful" game.

Are you guys being purposely obtuse? When I get better at Overwatch or even a MOBA it's because I've learned and adapted naturally along with the games mechanics not did that + learned a suite of opaque combos that is literally rote memorization.

Liking those types of fighters is fine but not seeing the difference to me is crazy.

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