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Aaronrules380
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by KillLaCam

You could play Tekken if it's that hard then. I made it to a decent rank in Tekken 7 just pressing 1 attack button with Katarina.

Maybe. I'm not familiar with every fighting game franchise. But I do know that after hours and hours of practicing I'm still not able to consistently pull off even basic shit like a quarter circle consistently and I think this is a huge problem
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:09 AM)
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ARMS and Nidhogg are really good guys. Special moves are not good.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:10 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Learning the fundementals of chess and being able to feel like your achieving something doesn't take that much effort.

Bullshit, chess is worse than any fighting game because the game has all but been mastered already. You have to literally learn entire strategies before you'd even have a chance at beating anyone who would call themselves competitive in chess.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Except I've tried and never been able to improve because without commiting hours to learning the absolutely most basic and fundamental systems I can't even improve by playing other people

Bullshit, nobody can practice for hours and not improve unless you have a serious learning disability

but seeing as i can even teach elementary school kids how to consistently throw a fireball, i'm just going to assume you looked at a movelist, got flustered and quit early.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by tenderbrew

Are you guys being purposely obtuse? When I get better at Overwatch or even a MOBA it's because I've learned and adapted naturally along with the games mechanics not did that + learned a suite of opaque combos that is literally rote memorization.

Liking those types of fighters is fine but not seeing the difference to me is crazy.

Exactly. There's a difference between learning the nuances of a games systems over time through organic play and needing to go out of your way to memorize inputs and the like
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Bullshit, chess is worse than any fighting game because the game has all but been mastered already. You have to literally learn entire strategies before you'd even have a chance at beating anyone who would call themselves competitive in chess.



Bullshit, nobody can practice for hours and not improve unless you have a serious learning disability

but seeing as i can even teach elementary school kids how to consistently throw a fireball, i'm just going to assume you looked at a movelist, got flustered and quit early.

I have bad coordination, and while I can pull off a quarter circle most of the time, after trying many times and spending a lot of time practicing, I can only pull of a quarter circle like 80% of the time I try in training mode, and far less when I'm in the middle of an actual match and have to worry about other things at the same time

And heres the thing: I don't necessarily want to beat competitive players. The problem comes when it takes hours of learning shit to beat other CASUAL players
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

ARMS and Nidhogg are really good guys. Special moves are not good.

I probably should've titled the thread this instead, might've gotten people less heated about Nintendo.
MegaPanda
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:14 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Exactly. There's a difference between learning the nuances of a games systems over time through organic play and needing to go out of your way to memorize inputs and the like

Well no, someone who sucks at aiming with a mouse would be feeling the same frustrations that you would be. This doesn't seem like a problem with the games, just your execution in them
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by MegaPanda

Well no, someone who sucks at aiming with a mouse would be feeling the same frustrations that you would be. This doesn't seem like a problem with the games, just your execution in them

Except there are clearly far less people who have issues with aiming with a mouse than those who do with fighting game inputs, because one is far less intuitive than the other
tenderbrew
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(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by MegaPanda

Well no, someone who sucks at aiming with a mouse would be feeling the same frustrations that you would be. This doesn't seem like a problem with the games, just your execution in them

Ok good night everybody.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)

Originally Posted by tenderbrew

Are you guys being purposely obtuse? When I get better at Overwatch or even a MOBA it's because I've learned and adapted naturally along with the games mechanics not did that + learned a suite of opaque combos that is literally rote memorization.

Liking those types of fighters is fine but not seeing the difference to me is crazy.

Because there literally is no difference. You're just trading combos for aiming proficiency, or flick shots, or whatever. It all takes practice.

I could probably play you in street fighter, never do a combo or special, and destroy you regardless. It has nothing to do with this. The game is deeper than its inputs. The only difference is that you've made an excuse for what you're personally not willing to learn.

Do you really believe that there is no TECHNICAL difference between competitive Overwatch or League players and people who just spam quickplay all day??? Are you being serious???
Izuna
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(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Leafhopper

...

Can't even bother with that to be honest, lol
KillLaCam
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(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Maybe. I'm not familiar with every fighting game franchise. But I do know that after hours and hours of practicing I'm still not able to consistently pull off even basic shit like a quarter circle consistently and I think this is a huge problem

I can't really think of many complicated inputs in Tekken. I always thought it was a really good beginner friendly game.

I think the quarter circle thing comes from those games being designed for an Arcade instead of a console. Not necessarily them trying to make the moves difficult to input.

Mortal Kombat and Injustice includes options to switch between the inputs modes. So you'll never even see a circle move there unless you want to
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Because there literally is no difference. You're just trading combos for aiming proficiency, or flick shots, or whatever. It all takes practice.

I could probably play you in street fighter, never do a combo or special, and destroy you regardless. It has nothing to do with this. The game is deeper than its inputs. The only difference is that you've made an excuse for what you're personally not willing to learn.

Do you really believe that there is no TECHNICAL difference between competitive Overwatch or League players and people who just spam quickplay all day??? Are you being serious???

The thing you don't seem to get is most people don't start by trying to play competitively. They start by playing casually and the barriers to entry for being able to play games like SF casually are far, far higher, especially if you don't have irl friends to play with and have to play online if you want to face other people
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 06:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Because there literally is no difference.

🤔

You're not convincing me here.
Poimandres
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(07-17-2017, 06:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Learning the fundementals of chess and being able to feel like your achieving something doesn't take that much effort. If I go into an online Streetfighter match of any sort knowing just the basic inputs I'll get bodied immediately and only be able to get like, one hit in. Unless your arguing that the online tracking systems are so horrible that they have no capability of actually sorting and segregating people by skill based on past records?

Dude... chess is stupendously harder to be competitive at than Street Fighter.

Anyway, I do agree that quarter circles etc could be improved upon for accessibility's sake. There really hasn't been much progress in this area for 20 years!
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Poimandres

Dude... chess is stupendously harder to be competitive at than Street Fighter.

Anyway, I do agree that quarter circles etc could be improved upon for accessibility's sake. There really hasn't been much progress in this area for 20 years!

I'm not talking about being competitive as in being in a competitive scene. I'm talking about being competitive as in being able to compete on an incredibly casual level
Arc Christelle
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(07-17-2017, 06:29 AM)
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Are we discussing "Arena Fighters"? Because no.
Poimandres
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(07-17-2017, 06:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm not talking about being competitive as in being in a competitive scene. I'm talking about being competitive as in being able to compete on an incredibly casual level

That's a problem with Street Fighter in particular. There really is no casual level when it comes to online play, and people have definitely bought that up with SF5 in particular. With Street Fighter, yes, you need to be comfortable with quarter circle type inputs to be competitive even on a casual level. Unless you are playing locally with people who also can't throw a fireball. But, because Street Fighter literally invented that control scheme I'm okay with it being "true to itself".

With a game like Tekken though there are characters that are really designed for casual players. They kind of approached that problem as early as Tekken 3 with the introduction of Eddy. People can and do win by button mashing in casual matches.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Poimandres

That's a problem with Street Fighter in particular. There really is no casual level when it comes to online play, and people have definitely bought that up with SF5 in particular. With Street Fighter, yes, you need to be comfortable with quarter circle type inputs to be competitive even on a casual level. Unless you are playing locally with people who also can't throw a fireball. But, because Street Fighter literally invented that control scheme I'm okay with it being "true to itself".

With a game like Tekken though there are characters that are really designed for casual players. They kind of approached that problem as early as Tekken 3 with the introduction of Eddy. People can and do win by button mashing in casual matches.

I'm not really talking about tekken because I've never played it at all. If Tekken is better at casual play that's definitely a good thing and increases my interest in the game
Data West
coaches in the WNBA
(07-17-2017, 06:38 AM)
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Arms is like a really poor version of Gundam so no
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 06:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm not really talking about tekken because I've never played it at all. If Tekken is better at casual play that's definitely a good thing and increases my interest in the game

from your whining in this thread, i simply assumed you never played any fighting games at all
neurosisxeno
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Soulflarz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

Melee is the most mechanical fighter in the world, with each character having a stupid amount of specific tech and inputs.
Matchups also matter a ton, with lots to learn.

So nah, based on smash alone (4 is very technical too with different character things), I'd argue no.

And with Brawl Nintendo did literally everything in their power to get away from that.
Neonep
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(07-17-2017, 06:41 AM)
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Some would say the inputs in games like SF are simple.
Izuna
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(07-17-2017, 06:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by Poimandres

Dude... chess is stupendously harder to be competitive at than Street Fighter.

Anyway, I do agree that quarter circles etc could be improved upon for accessibility's sake. There really hasn't been much progress in this area for 20 years!

SF4 made inputs stupidly easy.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:41 AM)

Originally Posted by Stopdoor

��

You're not convincing me here.

"I can't do this combo!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now do this combo!"

vs.

"I can't aim with this character!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now aim (better) with this character"


See the pattern?


" I cant do something " > Practice at doing something > " I can now do something"


what's the difference.

And FYI, I find aiming proficiently in FPS games significantly harder than pulling off combos in fighting games. Far more variables to consider.
KillLaCam
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(07-17-2017, 06:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

"I can't do this combo!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now do this combo!"

vs.

"I can't aim with this character!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now aim (better) with this character"


See the pattern?


" I cant do something " > Practice at doing something > " I can now do something"


what's the difference.

Less instant gratification I guess
Aaronrules380
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

from your whining in this thread, i simply assumed you never played any fighting games at all

I'm a huge fan of smash bros. I don't expect to be good immediately. I don't expect to win immediately. I just think it's bad design when the controls are so fundamentally unintuitive in games like SF that even after hours of playing I don't feel like I've grasped the fundemental basics of controlling the game
David___
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(07-17-2017, 06:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by tenderbrew

Are you guys being purposely obtuse? When I get better at Overwatch or even a MOBA it's because I've learned and adapted naturally along with the games mechanics not did that + learned a suite of opaque combos that is literally rote memorization.

Liking those types of fighters is fine but not seeing the difference to me is crazy.

In any FPS there are a set of fundamentals where they can be applied to almost any other game in the genre.

Same thing with fighting games.

Spacing, movement/ footsies and mind games are the fundamentals/foundation.

Combos are the ceiling, wall, floor roof, etc.

If you have a garbage foundation all you have is stuff that is supposed to be on top of a solid foundation and not stand by themselves
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm a huge fan of smash bros. I don't expect to be good immediately. I don't expect to win immediately. I just think it's bad design when the controls are so fundamentally unintuitive in games like SF that even after hours of playing I don't feel like I've grasped the fundemental basics of controlling the game

Algebra is unintuitive when you refuse to learn the theorems. The inputs are only unintuitive because you have never tried to learn them.

Stop saying it's something wrong with the game. There's nothing wrong with the game.

It's literally just you.
Aaronrules380
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

"I can't do this combo!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now do this combo!"

vs.

"I can't aim with this character!" > Go into practice mode > "I can now aim (better) with this character"


See the pattern?


" I cant do something " > Practice at doing something > " I can now do something"


what's the difference.

And FYI, I find aiming proficiently in FPS games significantly harder than pulling off combos in fighting games. Far more variables to consider.

You can improve your aiming ability in the middle of an actual match without spending time in training mode, which is sufficient for casual level play. Learning how to combo in the middle of a match with another player is pretty much impossible. Improving your reliability, sure, but if you don't know a combo you're unlikely to just discover it in the middle of a match. Aiming well can be hard, but the fundementals of aiming are incredibly intuitive
Anne
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(07-17-2017, 06:47 AM)
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Congrats OP
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Algebra is unintuitive when you refuse to learn the theorems. The inputs are only unintuitive because you have never tried to learn them.

Stop saying it's something wrong with the game. There's nothing wrong with the game.

It's literally just you.

Except I have tried to learn the inputs. I've tried a lot and I still can't do a quarter circle 100% of the time in training, let alone in an actual match when I have a million other things to worry about.

I'll let you in on a little secret: If your core mechanics are intuitive, it won't take more than a few minutes to get a basic grasp on them.
LordKasual
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:50 AM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Except I have tried to learn the inputs. I've tried a lot and I still can't do a quarter circle 100% of the time in training, let alone in an actual match when I have a million other things to worry about.

I'll let you in on a little secret: If your core mechanics are intuitive, it won't take more than a few minutes to get a basic grasp on them.

then fucking practice until you can, jesus christ

why am i still posting in this thread, im leaving lol

i feel sorry for whomever tried to teach you to ride a bicycle
Rutger
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(07-17-2017, 06:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm a huge fan of smash bros. I don't expect to be good immediately. I don't expect to win immediately. I just think it's bad design when the controls are so fundamentally unintuitive in games like SF that even after hours of playing I don't feel like I've grasped the fundemental basics of controlling the game

Yes, it's different, it takes some effort to learn at first, but the controls in fighting games are not bad design. The goal in creating a fighting game character's moveset is to give them a large amount of options to work with, and without the special inputs that have lasted to this day, doing so while giving these characters the same amount of options they already have would either require a stupid amount of buttons or even more unintuitive methods.

The inputs used in fighting games are the simple way to let the character do everything that they can do.

And as for the time requirement in order to learn a character, that too is not bad design, because to many who play fighting games, that is part of the fun.
Zack Zavage
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(07-17-2017, 06:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Except I have tried to learn the inputs. I've tried a lot and I still can't do a quarter circle 100% of the time in training, let alone in an actual match when I have a million other things to worry about.

I'll let you in on a little secret: If your core mechanics are intuitive, it won't take more than a few minutes to get a basic grasp on them.

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but have you ever tried QCF motions with an arcade stick? It's much more precise and easier in the long-term.
Leafhopper
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(07-17-2017, 06:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

then fucking practice until you can, jesus christ

why am i still posting in this thread, im leaving lol

i feel sorry for whomever tried to teach you to ride a bicycle

I gave up to be honest. You have to learn regardless but, somehow that isn't getting through people's head.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 06:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anne

Congrats OP

thank me, I'M the one who submitted it
NoctisVsStar
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(07-17-2017, 06:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

then fucking practice until you can, jesus christ

why am i still posting in this thread, im leaving lol

i feel sorry for whomever tried to teach you to ride a bicycle

Instant gratification and the illusion of being decent goes along way for some.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rutger

Yes, it's different, it takes some effort to learn at first, but the controls in fighting games are not bad design. The goal in creating a fighting game character's moveset is to give them a large amount of options to work with, and without the special inputs that have lasted to this day, doing so while giving these characters the same amount of options they already have would either require a stupid amount of buttons or even more unintuitive methods.

The inputs used in fighting games are the simple way to let the character do everything that they can do.

And as for the time requirement in order to learn a character, that too is not bad design, because to many who play fighting games, that is part of the fun.

I mean you're allowed to like something that isn't intuitive. But I'm kind of sick of people acting like not finding the controls of fighting games incredibly unintuitive isn't a problem or a huge barrier of entry for the genre.

Like, I'm a huge fan of competitive pokemon, but I fully recognize there are a ton of stupid barriers to entry and a huge learning curve and I think Gamefreak should do more to get rid of them or ease people into them. I think it's a lot of fun once you learn them, but I do think the barriers to entry are a problem that should be addressed rather than something that should be ignored. It's why I think Pokemon Showdown, which removes many of the barriers, is a fantastic resource for people who want to learn to play competitively.
Rmagnus
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:56 AM)
Wow FGC seems a tad rough on folks who feels spending hours practising is not fun. Different folks have different strokes.
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 06:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zack Zavage

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but have you ever tried QCF motions with an arcade stick? It's much more precise and easier in the long-term.

Honestly no, but I don't really want to have to spend money on a peripheral to be able to get into a genre I don't have much familiarity with
FooTemps
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(07-17-2017, 06:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

I don't believe ya. Sure, similarities exist, but there's miles of button combos there, and I'm a casual noob who wants to hop characters anyway. ARMS lets me do that, Smash Bros. lets me do that, and I can be basically competent.

Was gonna relegate myself to just lurking this thread but this is objectively not true.

You cannot jump characters in Smash and be "basically competent". The tech level in Melee would not allow you to survive in netplay, and the metagame would not let you survive even on For Glory.
nded
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(07-17-2017, 06:57 AM)
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I wish Rising Thunder were still around so people can continue to ignore it and other games with alternative control schemes in favor of making threads about how specific established franchises like Street Fighter should get rid of specials.
Anne
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(07-17-2017, 06:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

thank me, I'M the one who submitted it

Reported.

Originally Posted by Rmagnus

Wow FGC seems a tad rough on folks who feels spending hours practising is not fun. Different folks have different strokes.

We're more hard on monkeys who can't learn to do a motion then go and proclaim that well established mechanics just don't work right.
Poimandres
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(07-17-2017, 06:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm not really talking about tekken because I've never played it at all. If Tekken is better at casual play that's definitely a good thing and increases my interest in the game

Tekken is left punch, right punch, left kick, right kick on the face buttons as the 4 main attacks. There is a good level of depth, but it's not about projectiles etc like Street Fighter.

I actually think it's easier to pick up and play than Smash honestly.

Also, you might dig Bushido Blade. It's pretty old now but the concept of just a few deadly attacks and playing the waiting game is sort of similar to Nidhogg. Anyone can win or lose at Bushido Blade.

Everyone I ever played Powerstone with for an hour or more also had a blast.
NormalFish
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(07-17-2017, 06:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

thank me, I'M the one who submitted it

lmfao
Leafhopper
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(07-17-2017, 07:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rmagnus

Wow FGC seems a tad rough on folks who feels spending hours practising is not fun. Different folks have different strokes.

You learn how to play any video game. This isn't news people act like fighting games can't be learned.
Rmagnus
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:00 AM)

Originally Posted by Anne

Reported.



We're more hard on monkeys who can't learn to do a motion then go and proclaim that well established mechanics just don't work right.

And calling other gamers monkeys Jesus... I am out... You guys are really toxic.
CO_Andy
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(07-17-2017, 07:01 AM)
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there's a sense of satisfaction from pulling off a complicated motion, much like cooking a recipe by yourself instead of ordering at a restaurant

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Except I have tried to learn the inputs. I've tried a lot and I still can't do a quarter circle 100% of the time in training, let alone in an actual match when I have a million other things to worry about.

find a better controller. not all dpads or sticks are created equal
Aaronrules380
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(07-17-2017, 07:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by CO_Andy

there's a sense of satisfaction from pulling off a complicated motion, much like cooking a recipe by yourself instead of ordering at a restaurant

find a better controller. not all dpads or sticks are created equal

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

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