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Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 07:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to learn the basics of a game.

fixed
Aaronrules380
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

fixed

I play competitive pokemon, which is probably in many ways more obtuse and harder to get into than most fighting games. The thing is, I acknowledge that this is a problem that Gamefreak can improve upon
NoctisVsStar
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(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

You don't need an arcade stick, what you need is patience and dedication.
Poimandres
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(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

Which consoles do you own? Would help for recommendations.
David___
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by nded

I wish Rising Thunder were still around so people can continue to ignore it and other games with alternative control schemes in favor of making threads about how specific established franchises like Street Fighter should get rid of specials.

I personally love the cycle of

Simple fighting game announced ---> Article about how itll open the genre to the mainstream --> Only people who actually play fighters have any interest at all and it falls by the wayside to the causal audience

Happens everytime without fail
NormalFish
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(07-17-2017, 07:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

Look, I'm gonna give you one of the most well guarded secrets in video games:

If you can't do basic maneuvers in a fighting game, it's cause you suck.
nded
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

And you don't have to.
FZeroRacer
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 07:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rmagnus

Wow FGC seems a tad rough on folks who feels spending hours practising is not fun. Different folks have different strokes.

That's because if you want to play any game seriously or on a higher level you're gonna need to practice. Whether it's fighting games, Quake, Tribes, CS:GO or more.

QCFs are to bunny hopping are to proper skiing are to snap movements and aim etc. If you have trouble doing any of those then you practice until you get it or you play something else. Smash games are just as technical as any of the games I've listed but they require different skills you have to practice. They require absolute mastery of spacing and techniques that slightly alter it.

The game I would think as being the true master of fighting games without mechanical depth is Lethal League. That still requires a ton of practice if you want to be good at it however.
pizzacat
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(07-17-2017, 07:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I play competitive pokemon, which is probably in many ways more obtuse and harder to get into than most fighting games. The thing is, I acknowledge that this is a problem that Gamefreak can improve upon

competitive pokemon has a lot to do with breeding so yeah
FooTemps
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(07-17-2017, 07:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Again, I don't want to go out of my way to buy a new controller to be able to pull of the basics of a game.

The only time this is acceptable for a "fighting game" is when you are trying to play Melee because a good GC controller is so damn hard to find.

I guess you'll never play flight simulators that require HOTAS or a racing sim too?
Leafhopper
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(07-17-2017, 07:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by David___

I personally love the cycle of

Simple fighting game announced ---> Article about how itll open the genre to the mainstream --> Only people who actually play fighters have any interest at all and it falls by the wayside to the causal audience

Happens everytime without fail

In the case of Rising Thunder they got bought out by Riot Games and the project put to a halt. Still a bit bitter tbh.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 07:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I play competitive pokemon, which is probably in many ways more obtuse and harder to get into than most fighting games. The thing is, I acknowledge that this is a problem that Gamefreak can improve upon

bringing rpgs into a fighting game discussion

no wonder you don't understand fundamentals
RecRoulette
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(07-17-2017, 07:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anne

Congrats OP

Brutal.
Takyon
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(07-17-2017, 07:18 AM)
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Tfw a melee fox main
Harken Raiser
Penisologist
(07-17-2017, 07:24 AM)
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Play Samurai Gunn OP, it's the best. Also consider trying Virtual On, it's one of the main influences on ARMS and really fun.

EDIT: What about For Honor, is that up your alley?

I disagree with you on Smash, though, it's too complex for me. I can't play Smash while I am decent-ish at traditional fighting games.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

In any other genre, requiring hours of mind numbing tedium to teach you how to play before you can actually have any fun with the game is pretty much universally panned

It took me years to become competent at console FPS dual analog controls.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Name one other competitve genre where you have to spend hours learning the absolute basics in a tutorial before you're capable of feeling like you can do anything at all online?

I still can't beat anyone in RTSs or MOBAs.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

You can improve your aiming ability in the middle of an actual match without spending time in training mode, which is sufficient for casual level play. Learning how to combo in the middle of a match with another player is pretty much impossible. Improving your reliability, sure, but if you don't know a combo you're unlikely to just discover it in the middle of a match. Aiming well can be hard, but the fundementals of aiming are incredibly intuitive

What if I told you could beat people without using combos? I've won matches of Street Fighter 4 online and in person by just pressing M.Bison's Medium Kick button or just walking up and throwing my opponent repeatedly.
Last edited by Harken Raiser; 07-17-2017 at 07:33 AM.
Jackstin
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(07-17-2017, 07:29 AM)
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Nintendo games are the best.
Nintendo fans are the worst.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 07:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Harken Raiser

What if I told you could beat people in without using combos? I've won matches of Street Fighter 4 online and in person by just pressing M.Bison's Medium Kick button or just walking up and throwing my opponent repeatedly.

stop you're killing his agenda
PKrockin
Member
(07-17-2017, 07:33 AM)
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I think games shouldn't have a more complicated control scheme than is necessary for whatever design goals it has in mind, especially when it creates large barriers of entry. I'm no expert on most 2D fighting games, but I'm pretty sure their controls could be simplified such that a newbie to them wouldn't have to dedicate so much time to something boring like sitting around in training mode practicing shoryuken motions. I mean, that just strikes me as objectively a big problem.

I dunno, maybe people found that fun or something.
Alucrid
(07-17-2017, 07:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Harken Raiser

What if I told you could beat people without using combos? I've won matches of Street Fighter 4 online and in person by just pressing M.Bison's Medium Kick button or just walking up and throwing my opponent repeatedly.

it was probably the op or arron360rules you beat

Originally Posted by PKrockin

I think games shouldn't have a more complicated control scheme than is necessary for whatever design goals it has in mind, especially when it creates large barriers of entry. I'm no expert on most 2D fighting games, but I'm pretty sure their controls could be simplified such that a newbie to them wouldn't have to dedicate so much time to something boring like sitting around in training mode practicing shoryuken motions. I mean, that just strikes me as objectively a big problem.

I dunno, maybe people found that fun or something.

okay just have them play ed then
iBlue
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(07-17-2017, 07:37 AM)
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Smash is simple as hell. After 5min you know how to use most characters.

And yes I play competitive melee and smash 4
Daouzin
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(07-17-2017, 07:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by iBlue

Smash is simple as hell. After 5min you know how to use most characters.

And yes I play competitive melee and smash 4

That's pretty much what makes them great. Simple controls without sacrificing depth.

What people don't understand about wanting to simplify inputs for fighting games is that this usually limits options. Of course it doesn't have to. Changing a super from a character specific command to just right bumper (or R1) works well too. (See Tekken 7)
MikeBreezy92
History's 378th Most
Lustful Bolivian Superhero
(07-17-2017, 07:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Toxi

Feels like a narrow superlative.

Because it is. It's a topic to bait people who favor execution and those who favor strategy when Fighting games is supposed to be a mix of both.
Line_HTX
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(07-17-2017, 07:53 AM)
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NO, they are NOT the master of fighting games without complex inputs.

Take the time to learn the system please.
Harken Raiser
Penisologist
(07-17-2017, 07:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by PKrockin

I think games shouldn't have a more complicated control scheme than is necessary for whatever design goals it has in mind, especially when it creates large barriers of entry. I'm no expert on most 2D fighting games, but I'm pretty sure their controls could be simplified such that a newbie to them wouldn't have to dedicate so much time to something boring like sitting around in training mode practicing shoryuken motions. I mean, that just strikes me as objectively a big problem.

I dunno, maybe people found that fun or something.

Fantasy Strike is a 2D fighter in development with simple 1 button special moves that looks promising. Here's The Super Best Friends exploring the mechanics (I could only find footage from let's players): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9x_jj6v60&t=3s

Pocket Rumble has simple direction+button special move inputs, not unlike Smash, but feels like a traditional fighter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKGTDgfN80k

Rising Thunder was the chosen one, but it's dead.
FSLink
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(07-17-2017, 08:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Harken Raiser

What if I told you could beat people without using combos? I've won matches of Street Fighter 4 online and in person by just pressing M.Bison's Medium Kick button or just walking up and throwing my opponent repeatedly.

Yeah...like I can beat my casual friends in Killer Instinct when I don't play the game at all, and don't know any combos or memorized the movelist for any character whatsoever.

I dunno this feels like a weird topic of discussion. Like if you're playing against other casual people, the goal is to just have fun. If you want to be competitively (even if it's just to beat your friends, not necessarily to be "pro" level), OF COURSE you actually have to sit down and learn the game.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

Honestly no, but I don't really want to have to spend money on a peripheral to be able to get into a genre I don't have much familiarity with

Understandable but honestly some default pad controllers are very inconsistent at least at first until you learn how to be consistent on a 360 controller/Dual Shock/etc. I found an arcade stick to be way more intuitive for me personally. Motions like Shoryuken and 360 motions made complete sense when I finally switched over to a stick.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm a huge fan of smash bros. I don't expect to be good immediately. I don't expect to win immediately. I just think it's bad design when the controls are so fundamentally unintuitive in games like SF that even after hours of playing I don't feel like I've grasped the fundemental basics of controlling the game

It's not bad design, but stuff like SF is clearly more designed for arcade sticks (though there's been success with pad players).
Like, to me the default arcade layout makes tons of sense:

Light Punch Medium Punch Heavy Punch
Light Kick Medium Kick Heavy Kick

LP+LK = grab
MP+MK = V-Skill
HP+HK = V-Trigger

And motions like charge is stupid easy on a stick since there's a square gate. Hold towards a corner or side, then press towards another corner or side and a punch or kick. This can be more difficult on a controller where there isn't a gate to make it easy to "hold" precisely unless you're used to a pad. Command grab inputs like 360 motions just make way more sense on a stick where it's easier to be more accurate with it, but you then also realize the larger motion makes it so you can't just do it instantly for balances purposes.

You can also see games designed more around pad like Smash, Injustice, Mortal Kombat be a lot easier on a pad too.
Last edited by FSLink; 07-17-2017 at 08:14 AM.
petran79
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(07-17-2017, 08:05 AM)
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But if the Switch controller is like that it makes things more frustrating than using an arcade stick
Sorcerer Supreme
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(07-17-2017, 08:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I'm a huge fan of smash bros. I don't expect to be good immediately. I don't expect to win immediately. I just think it's bad design when the controls are so fundamentally unintuitive in games like SF that even after hours of playing I don't feel like I've grasped the fundemental basics of controlling the game

you're just terrible at video games then
J@hranimo
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(07-17-2017, 08:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by FallingEdge

Has Nintendo even made a fighting game?

L

Yeah I can agree with that OP.
Line_HTX
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(07-17-2017, 08:21 AM)
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And do not call it bad design when thousands upon thousands of other players grasped it just fine with all sorts of controllers, be it stick, pad, or hell even a mechanical keyboard.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Line_HTX

And do not call it bad design when thousands upon thousands of other players grasped it just fine with all sorts of controllers, be it stick, pad, or hell even a mechanical keyboard.

but it's haaaaarrrrrrd
Neff
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(07-17-2017, 08:36 AM)
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They're the master of creating fighting games with control schemes which don't intimidate the player.

However, I'd consider myself a fairly competent fighting game player and Smash is too hardcore for me.
Garraboa
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(07-17-2017, 08:39 AM)
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Say what you want, the market is speaking. Smash still sells like it's on its first succesful entry, and ARMS is kicking ass in Media Create. SFV and Tekken 7 didn't do so hot AFAIK. Shame, because I think Tekken is the easiest of the "complex" fighting games to get into.
shockdude
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(07-17-2017, 08:46 AM)
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Tekken's been brought up before but I'm gonna bring it up anyway.
Unintuitive buttons? Left hand, right hand, left foot, right foot.
Complicated motions? Direction+Button is good enough at the entry level.
Combos? See above.
Fight stick? Gamepads are (were?) very popular in competitive Tekken.
Skill ceiling? Comparable to Melee imo. Melee even copied the term "wavedash" from Tekken.

Disclaimer: Played TTT2 but haven't bought Tekken 7 yet.
Last edited by shockdude; 07-17-2017 at 08:50 AM.
LinkSlayer64
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(07-17-2017, 08:48 AM)
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I'll say this, they managed to make smash playable on a freaking wiimote.
Divekick still wins in a though.

Saltybet true winner because you don't even have to play
Alucrid
(07-17-2017, 08:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Garraboa

Say what you want, the market is speaking. Smash still sells like it's on its first succesful entry, and ARMS is kicking ass in Media Create. SFV and Tekken 7 didn't do so hot AFAIK. Shame, because I think Tekken is the easiest of the "complex" fighting games to get into.

wouldn't that be a bad thing considering it should sell more on subsequent successful entries?
WiiRevolution1
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(07-17-2017, 08:51 AM)
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lol at everyone shitting on op.

Yes, a game where you press right on a dpad plus attack button is totally the same as a game where you press right, then very quickly scrolll down, then scroll right again then press attack. In the middle of a fighting game where you have to pay attention to the fight instead of learning a way overcomplicated move instead of simple pressing right plus attack.

Yall have got to be trolling right. Well I mean you think your serious, but if you think the inputs in something like Street Fighter are easy to grasp then all I can do is stare in dumbfounded wonder. Just because you've mastered the overcomplicated combos in a game doesn't mean its easy to do. Its just easy to you, not most, which is why lots of fighting games bomb.
danmaku
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(07-17-2017, 08:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by iBlue

Smash is simple as hell. After 5min you know how to use most characters.

And yes I play competitive melee and smash 4

And you'll still get blown away by someone who knows what he's doing, which is the real problem for beginners. Inputs are just excuse #12313244.
Kajlaurent
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 09:02 AM)

Originally Posted by WiiRevolution1

lol at everyone shitting on op.

Yes, a game where you press right on a dpad plus attack button is totally the same as a game where you press right, then very quickly scrolll down, then scroll right again then press attack. In the middle of a fighting game where you have to pay attention to the fight instead of learning a way overcomplicated move instead of simple pressing right plus attack.

Yall have got to be trolling right. Well I mean you think your serious, but if you think the inputs in something like Street Fighter are easy to grasp then all I can do is stare in dumbfounded wonder. Just because you've mastered the overcomplicated combos in a game doesn't mean its easy to do. Its just easy to you, not most, which is why lots of fighting games bomb.

This is exactly what i was thinking. I totally agree with op. He is formulating it badly at times but for me its like this: i have never entered the practice mode of smash”and i got pretty decent at it and can win in for honor mode in smash 4. Ive played sf4 and guilty gear forever in practice mode and i can do some of the combos in practice. But once i get into a fight om mashing again because i dont memorize the combo. Now im not saying this is bad or anything but i dont loke spending time in practice mode, i want to learn while losing in ranked mode. Its the reason i dont like learning a language. It takes hours and hours to learn the words before i can speak with someone that can inderstand me. Some poeple do like remembering that stuff (and maybe they do that easier bc i learn 10 words or 1 combo in 2 hours and when the time comes i need to use it i have forgotten it again).

Its just to frustrating for me with a bad memory. This is why i love smash because the skill ismt in memory but in mechanics and i can remember that because its visual and clear and not buttons i have to press

So basically i want to say: fighting games like sf and other combo games are not for everyone. And thats why only a few stick around

Also i have a feeling in fighting games i have to main 1character and then spend another 100 hours to play another one and in smash i can play all characters a bit and not feel like im a complete idiot
Last edited by Kajlaurent; 07-17-2017 at 09:05 AM.
RM8
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(07-17-2017, 09:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by danmaku

And you'll still get blown away by someone who knows what he's doing, which is the real problem for beginners. Inputs are just excuse #12313244.

This. You're not "competitive" in SSB because you can perform special moves, lol.

Also, needs to be repeated, fighting games are not about memorizing combos. I honestly get away without long combos in SFV and Tekken 7, pick a character that fits your playstyle and work on your spacing and you mindgames / punishes. I actually dislike combo heavy fighting games.
Last edited by RM8; 07-17-2017 at 09:06 AM.
FSLink
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(07-17-2017, 09:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by WiiRevolution1

lol at everyone shitting on op.

Yes, a game where you press right on a dpad plus attack button is totally the same as a game where you press right, then very quickly scrolll down, then scroll right again then press attack. In the middle of a fighting game where you have to pay attention to the fight instead of learning a way overcomplicated move instead of simple pressing right plus attack.

Yall have got to be trolling right. Well I mean you think your serious, but if you think the inputs in something like Street Fighter are easy to grasp then all I can do is stare in dumbfounded wonder. Just because you've mastered the overcomplicated combos in a game doesn't mean its easy to do. Its just easy to you, not most, which is why lots of fighting games bomb.

Uh, right down right isn't a motion for anything lol

It's not that complicated for the motions. It's a very quick motion. It's not that much harder pressing down, diagonal left/right, then right and a punch honestly. It kinda can be on a pad since some pads are very inconsistent.

Originally Posted by Kajlaurent

This is exactly what i was thinking. I totally agree with op. He is formulating it badly at times but for me its like this: i have never entered the practice mode of smash”and i got pretty decent at it and can win in for honor mode in smash 4. Ive played sf4 and guilty gear forever in practice mode and i can do some of the combos in practice. But once i get into a fight om mashing again because i dont memorize the combo. Now im not saying this is bad or anything but i dont loke spending time in practice mode, i want to learn while losing in ranked mode. Its the reason i dont like learning a language. It takes hours and hours to learn the words before i can speak with someone that can inderstand me. Some poeple do like remembering that stuff (and maybe they do that easier bc i learn 10 words or 1 combo in 2 hours and when the time comes i need to use it i have forgotten it again).

Its just to frustrating for me with a bad memory. This is why i love smash because the skill ismt in memory but in mechanics and i can remember that because its visual and clear and not buttons i have to press

So basically i want to say: fighting games like sf and other combo games are not for everyone. And thats why only a few stick around

For Glory isn't a testament of any skill in Smash 4 when most people suck at it. And in Smash you have to practice combos too.
Last edited by FSLink; 07-17-2017 at 09:06 AM.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
(07-17-2017, 09:18 AM)
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Sounds like some people in this thread just wants a "PRESS A FOR AWESOME" button in fighting games.
Last edited by SargerusBR; 07-17-2017 at 09:21 AM.
Kajlaurent
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 09:25 AM)
People are so offensed in this thread. No one is saying that your favourite game is bad right? This is exactly the reason fighting games will never improve
Kajlaurent
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 09:27 AM)

Originally Posted by FSLink

Uh, right down right isn't a motion for anything lol

It's not that complicated for the motions. It's a very quick motion. It's not that much harder pressing down, diagonal left/right, then right and a punch honestly. It kinda can be on a pad since some pads are very inconsistent.



For Glory isn't a testament of any skill in Smash 4 when most people suck at it. And in Smash you have to practice combos too.

im not even saying that. Its just that i have fun at smash and i can appreciate learning that game. And i can practice smash for hours and i cant in other fighting games

Also im not someone who quits games early bc of that and ik surely looking forward to dbfz. I hope they will bring what i want (easier combos) and its dbz so i love it more bc of that
Last edited by Kajlaurent; 07-17-2017 at 09:37 AM.
Harmen
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(07-17-2017, 09:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Izuna

Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"

I agree.
Sheroking
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(07-17-2017, 09:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kajlaurent

People are so offensed in this thread. No one is saying that your favourite game is bad right? This is exactly the reason fighting games will never improve

Fighting games improve all the time. What does "improve" even mean in this context?
*Splinter
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(07-17-2017, 10:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

And heres the thing: I don't necessarily want to beat competitive players. The problem comes when it takes hours of learning shit to beat other CASUAL players

And where are you finding these "casual" players?

The problem most fighting games have is the playerbase is too small for casual players to find each other in matchmaking. It's a self-perpetuating problem: new players go online and match against experienced players, so they stop going online and there continues to be a lack of new players in matchmaking.

My experiences with fighting games have been local multiplayer with friends. It's 90% button mashing (with slightly more efficient mashing by whoever owns the game) because that's all we can do with our rudimentary understanding of the controls. Surprise surprise it works fine, doesn't matter if it's Tekken or Soul Caliber or Smash Bros.

If I took those fighting games online I wouldn't be playing against people at my level, I'd be destroyed by players who had been playing that game and others like it for years. I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but it's nothing to do with the "complexity" of the controls.

(Arms avoids this by being a new game that isn't similar to other games in the genre. If it also happens to be as "basic" as you describe it's not going to be interesting enough for anyone to really master it, you'll only ever see "button mashing" level gameplay.)




To answer OP's questions from earlier in the thread:

a weak punch is fast striking motion with your fist, with very little build up and therefore no power. Also known as a "jab", it is meant more as a distraction or to put your opponent off balance.

a low kick is a striking motion with your foot, aimed at your opponents legs.

In the simple control scheme of Smash Bros, both of these are achieved by pressing left (or right) and A.

I hope this helps.
openrob
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(07-17-2017, 10:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Leafhopper

I feel like Rising Thunder would have been a good contender of that before Riot came and clubbed them to death.



And in other games this is a headache? Not sure what you mean by this.

That in games like Smash all characters have the same input.

Like with Street Fighter, you could spend a week mastering Ryu, then switch to E. Honda and not have a clue how to do any special moves.
ZombiePlatypus
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(07-17-2017, 10:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

No, that's a fundamental problem with YOU. The game is literally giving you tools to use, and you're refusing to use them simply because you're too lazy to be bothered.

There's no rule that says that you HAVE to learn how to play the game before you fight people. The game doesn't stop you...you're just going to get your ass fired on, by people who actually want to improve, unlike you, who wants to turn the game on and press buttons, and be called good for it.

Expecting a videogame (something that people pick up for fun) to quickly feel intuitive is not an absurd demand.

It's totally fine and ok if some games sacrifice user-friendliness for depth. It's just a trade-off. But painting such a choice on the game's part as a shortcoming of the user is ridiculous.
Clawww
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(07-17-2017, 10:26 AM)
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If you can't do 10 tilts in a row don't talk about easy inputs
Oberon
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(07-17-2017, 10:35 AM)
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Smash is so easy to pick up and play compared to other fighters. You press a button and get the special. Every other fighter feels so stiff in comparison. And don't have to spent hours getting bored to death in training mode, because unlike other fighting games, even fighting CPUs is fun (and because of it's accessibility it's easier to find people to play with.)
Easy to learn, but hard to master, everything you can wish for.

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