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FSLink
Banned
(07-17-2017, 11:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by openrob

That in games like Smash all characters have the same input.

Like with Street Fighter, you could spend a week mastering Ryu, then switch to E. Honda and not have a clue how to do any special moves.

You can spend a week learning Mario in Smash and not have any clue on how to use Bayonetta. :P

Originally Posted by ZombiePlatypus

Expecting a videogame (something that people pick up for fun) to quickly feel intuitive is not an absurd demand.

It's totally fine and ok if some games sacrifice user-friendliness for depth. It's just a trade-off. But painting such a choice on the game's part as a shortcoming of the user is ridiculous.

Agreed but I think it's silly to want all games like Smash. It's a different execution barrier. I have an easier time doing certain things in Marvel than Smash depending on what it is. I think it is a shortcoming of the user, personally. I think it's mostly laziness. If you don't want to learn, that's fine but you shouldn't expect every game to be easy especially when I really don't think SF inputs are that hard...some inputs in Smash are way harder (perfect pivoting for example).
Nitpicker_Red
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by FSLink

You can spend a week learning Mario in Smash and not have any clue on how to use Bayonetta. :P

DLC characters kind of brought their playstyle with them so maybe they are not the most "Smash-like" characters to compare with.
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:16 PM)
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I'm going to give a real answer here real quick that will probably just be denounced by Smash players or something, but Smash isn't an easy game to pick up and play just because of the controls. The controls kinda help, but not really. Smash is an easy to pick up and play game because anybody who's ever even looked at Mario understands you want to stay on a platform and try to just hit people. The game is designed, marketed, and is mostly played as a casual friendly party game. It can be made competitive and Smash 4 tries to balance it out, but that's the truth. The fact you can pick up the controls and beat up on your friends is fine, but the fact of the matter is if you try to play against anybody that knows how to use precision controls and take advantage of the mechanics, you will get clowned on into the next century. The game just gives off a perception of "mastery" more due to the basic idea of how the platforming works rather than some controls.

A quarter circle input, DP motion, hell even some old SNK inputs are all easier to do than a lot of shit other games ask you to do. It's easier to throw a fireball than it is to even land shots accurately in an FPS game. Every game designer I've talked to that works in fighting games has basically told me the same thing. They simplify inputs down, make combos easier, and do whatever steps possible to make it easier to play. People still don't learn how to actually play the games, because the simple idea of walking back and forth in a 2D fighting game is more intimidating than anything else. A designer who I can't name once told me "I can make the inputs so easy anybody can do whatever they want, but they'll never learn how to space a crouching medium kick."

In Smash, you don't have to worry about that at a basic level. You're more worried about jumping and staying on platforms, and you're not going to get punished for moving around the stage unless you stick your face directly into your opponent. In Smash, you usually can play multiplayer modes other than 1v1 to take the burden off of yourself if you start to lose. In house sessions with your friends, you can set the rules to whatever the hell you want to compensate for skill balance issues.

Anyways, the point is Smash controls being easier don't really have all that much to do with the game being more accessible itself. It's actually an incredibly small factor. Focusing on that in every fighting game thread on GAF is getting extremely tedious, because most people who have played fighting games past the earliest stages know the problems rarely ever come down to the controls.
Mista Koo
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:58 PM)
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Yes. But as much as I appreciate being able to perform every move, Smash and Arms are just different subgenres of fighting games that I enjoy less than traditional fighters.

IMO motion commands are antiquated as they were A) designed as secret moves that not everyone can perform B) not designed with controllers in mind.
I really like what Rising Thunder (top) and Fantasy Strike (bottom) are doing when it comes to revisiting Street Fighter controls. However Rising Thunder was cancelled and awaiting possible LoL-themed relaunch, and Fantasy Strike has no soul.




Originally Posted by Stopdoor

This game is the most similar example but the character specific abilities seem to ironically make it really hard to grasp. And it feels more like a quick joke game than a legit effort if you don't want to learn those depths.

It's a solid game with a joke skin that stands in the way of how good the game is. I really wish it can be relaunched with a genuine skin.
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 01:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mista Koo

IMO motion commands are antiquated as they were A) designed as secret moves that not everyone can perform B) not designed with controllers in mind.

This isn't entirely true. They wouldn't have stuck around for that long if that was the case. They solve a few issues on their own like:

Adding artificial start up to moves to balance out quick start up
Generally help avoid overlapping inputs
Force you to commit to doing a motion rather than mashing i.e. you can't block and input a DP motion at the same time

And those are the basic ones. There are games like Rising Thunder, Persona, etc that have special moves tied to macro buttons. All of those games have to make certain concessions with those moves due to how they are input when compared to other traditional fighters. These "antiquated" motions actually have real reasons they are still used. We can prove that by looking at the differences of games that have already done motionless inputs.

Edit: forgot to mention that games like SF4/V and what NRS makes all have inputs made to be more lenient for easier use on a controller too.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 01:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by LordKasual

Algebra is unintuitive when you refuse to learn the theorems. The inputs are only unintuitive because you have never tried to learn them.

Stop saying it's something wrong with the game. There's nothing wrong with the game.

It's literally just you.

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

You can improve your aiming ability in the middle of an actual match without spending time in training mode, which is sufficient for casual level play. Learning how to combo in the middle of a match with another player is pretty much impossible. Improving your reliability, sure, but if you don't know a combo you're unlikely to just discover it in the middle of a match. Aiming well can be hard, but the fundementals of aiming are incredibly intuitive

I'm glad you guys bowed out because you were both literally repeating yourself. Definitely on Aaron's side here but to be honest, the thesis of my thread is a game like ARMS is pretty cool, definitely different than a traditional fighting game, and it'd be nice to have more things like it. Not sure why that encourages such vitriol but maybe I need less flame-baity titles.

Originally Posted by Anne

Congrats OP

Funny and all, but I should say when I said "cheat code", I didn't literally mean the moves are cheats. Should've just said button combos or secret code or whatever.

Originally Posted by Rutger

Yes, it's different, it takes some effort to learn at first, but the controls in fighting games are not bad design. The goal in creating a fighting game character's moveset is to give them a large amount of options to work with, and without the special inputs that have lasted to this day, doing so while giving these characters the same amount of options they already have would either require a stupid amount of buttons or even more unintuitive methods.

The inputs used in fighting games are the simple way to let the character do everything that they can do.

And as for the time requirement in order to learn a character, that too is not bad design, because to many who play fighting games, that is part of the fun.

I guess my point is inputs being universal for each character while still being complex might be interesting. The fact there's so many button combos is an overwhelming memorization effort that ARMS or Nidhogg doesn't have. Maybe if you learned the inputs for Ryu and it applied to every other character but with different effects, that'd be cool.

Originally Posted by Leafhopper

I gave up to be honest. You have to learn regardless but, somehow that isn't getting through people's head.

My example here is ARMS, and my point is ARMS is different in a way that I like and seems to actually do "fundamentals" without being obscured by other stuff. I feel like that's not getting through to people because they're too on the defensive.

Originally Posted by FooTemps

Was gonna relegate myself to just lurking this thread but this is objectively not true.

You cannot jump characters in Smash and be "basically competent". The tech level in Melee would not allow you to survive in netplay, and the metagame would not let you survive even on For Glory.

C'mon, "surviving in netplay and For Glory" is beyond basically competent. That's for the most hardcore of players. Obviously that takes dedication to a character. But I can go to "regular" online and win with many characters, and that's cool. More things are in common between them, it's nice.

Originally Posted by nded

I wish Rising Thunder were still around so people can continue to ignore it and other games with alternative control schemes in favor of making threads about how specific established franchises like Street Fighter should get rid of specials.

Wasn't really the point of my thread. I offered a call to action: what other games do this?

Originally Posted by Professor Beef

bringing rpgs into a fighting game discussion

no wonder you don't understand fundamentals

Seriously, my thread really wasn't intended to get people so defensive. The guy you're replying to has humility. I literally called myself out as a Nintendo fanboy in the OP. I'm just saying more games like ARMS would be pretty cool and was trying to make the point they may actually help people grasp fundamentals in even games like Street Fighter better because people aren't distracted by button combos.

Button combos might have their place, fine. I'm just interested in more games like ARMS.

Originally Posted by Daouzin

That's pretty much what makes them great. Simple controls without sacrificing depth.

What people don't understand about wanting to simplify inputs for fighting games is that this usually limits options. Of course it doesn't have to. Changing a super from a character specific command to just right bumper (or R1) works well too. (See Tekken 7)

This is kind of my point. I'll have to try Tekken sometime. I have my doubts it'd be the same, but I like the intuitiveness of L/R Punch/Kick vs. Light/Medium/Heavy.

Originally Posted by Line_HTX

NO, they are NOT the master of fighting games without complex inputs.

Take the time to learn the system please.

This kind of post is baffling, providing no counter examples and then saying I should learn the complexities. So defensive.

Originally Posted by SargerusBR

Sounds like some people in this thread just wants a "PRESS A FOR AWESOME" button in fighting games.

Hi, there's these fun games with depth called ARMS, Nidhogg, Lethal League, etc. etc. I made a thread about it.

Originally Posted by *Splinter

To answer OP's questions from earlier in the thread:

a weak punch is fast striking motion with your fist, with very little build up and therefore no power. Also known as a "jab", it is meant more as a distraction or to put your opponent off balance.

a low kick is a striking motion with your foot, aimed at your opponents legs.

In the simple control scheme of Smash Bros, both of these are achieved by pressing left (or right) and A.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for an attempt at an honest explanation. My point is that in general, punch/kick don't seem to have universal properties making them kind of abstract. Which is why, yeah reducing it to one attack button is nice.
tenderbrew
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:03 PM)
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It's almost as if someone made a thread to celebrate fighting games with alternate inputs and for some reason every fighting game junkie on GAF took it as a threat to their livelihood and came to the defense. The thread started with a positive spin and was somehow distorted into "you guys who like this are just lazy and terrible." Really kind of mystifying.

Anyway I've about 50 hours into ARMs so I'm not opposed to putting in time. The control layout being the way it is rather than heavily focused on unique inputs between characters and huge dial-a-combos has been the impetus for me to keep getting better. Same reason I had such a good time with Pokken on Wii U or yes Smash Bros. This does not mean those other games are crap or that I'm insinuating they are. It means they are awesome but completely impenetrable to me. I love watching them on EVO but absolutely hate playing them.
RRockman
Banned
(07-17-2017, 02:06 PM)
I'd say Nintendo is pretty good at it. ARMS teaches you

Spacing

Pokes

Feints

Conditioning

Okizeme

Soft/Hard Reads

Grab techs

And mindgames without a single half moon input command. It would be a great start for kids to learn fighters with its simple inputs.

Smash is too simply based on inputs since there is no complex inputs for casual play whatsoever. But, you can take it further if YOU so choose. You can also remap your buttons to make things more convenient, like Bidou Tech.
Raptomex
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:10 PM)
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I guess so. I don't play many fighting games but Smash Bros. definitely fits this mold. Accessible to everyone, yet there's real depth for those that are competitive. Utilizing blocks, wavedashing, the sheer speed of the fighting (especially in Melee), it can get pretty intense.

I haven't played much of Arms but enjoyed what I did play.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by tenderbrew

It's almost as if someone made a thread to celebrate fighting games with alternate inputs and for some reason every fighting game junkie on GAF took it as a threat to their livelihood and came to the defense. The thread started with a positive spin and was somehow distorted into "you guys who like this are just lazy and terrible." Really kind of mystifying.

Anyway I've about 50 hours into ARMs so I'm not opposed to putting in time. The control layout being the way it is rather than heavily focused on unique inputs between characters and huge dial-a-combos has been the impetus for me to keep getting better. Same reason I had such a good time with Pokken on Wii U or yes Smash Bros. This does not mean those other games are crap or that I'm insinuating they are. It means they are awesome but completely impenetrable to me. I love watching them on EVO but absolutely hate playing them.

Blame my choice of titles I guess, claiming "the best??" gets people (maybe understandably) heated.

Was trying to make the point that more games like ARMS might be a decent ramp up to timing and spacing in other fighting games, though who knows if I'll ever put it into practice.

Originally Posted by RRockman

I'd say Nintendo is pretty good at it. ARMS teaches you

Spacing

Pokes

Feints

Conditioning

Okizeme

Soft/Hard Reads

Grab techs

And mindgames without a single half moon input command. It would be a great start for kids to learn fighters with its simple inputs.

Smash is too simply based on inputs since there is no complex inputs for casual play whatsoever. But, you can take it further if YOU so choose. You can also remap your buttons to make things more convenient, like Bidou Tech.

Yeah, that's my point. ARMS seems to do these basic fundamentals I see championed by fighting game experts who don't become overly defensive about button combos.
AquaWateria
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:28 PM)
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There's reason why most fighting games do not sell much and that genre isn't as popular these days that isn't with the hardcore.

I do not understand why people are jumping OP when he is giving some good points. He is not even trying to shit on your favorite games which some of y'all are acting like.

Ideally accessibility is something most fighting games need in my opinion otherwise only the hardcore will play them. Although there are exceptions like Injustice with its big beefy campaign.
sixteen-bit
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:28 PM)
Nah, Namco is
FSLink
Banned
(07-17-2017, 02:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Anne

I'm going to give a real answer here real quick that will probably just be denounced by Smash players or something, but Smash isn't an easy game to pick up and play just because of the controls. The controls kinda help, but not really. Smash is an easy to pick up and play game because anybody who's ever even looked at Mario understands you want to stay on a platform and try to just hit people. The game is designed, marketed, and is mostly played as a casual friendly party game. It can be made competitive and Smash 4 tries to balance it out, but that's the truth. The fact you can pick up the controls and beat up on your friends is fine, but the fact of the matter is if you try to play against anybody that knows how to use precision controls and take advantage of the mechanics, you will get clowned on into the next century. The game just gives off a perception of "mastery" more due to the basic idea of how the platforming works rather than some controls.

A quarter circle input, DP motion, hell even some old SNK inputs are all easier to do than a lot of shit other games ask you to do. It's easier to throw a fireball than it is to even land shots accurately in an FPS game. Every game designer I've talked to that works in fighting games has basically told me the same thing. They simplify inputs down, make combos easier, and do whatever steps possible to make it easier to play. People still don't learn how to actually play the games, because the simple idea of walking back and forth in a 2D fighting game is more intimidating than anything else. A designer who I can't name once told me "I can make the inputs so easy anybody can do whatever they want, but they'll never learn how to space a crouching medium kick."

In Smash, you don't have to worry about that at a basic level. You're more worried about jumping and staying on platforms, and you're not going to get punished for moving around the stage unless you stick your face directly into your opponent. In Smash, you usually can play multiplayer modes other than 1v1 to take the burden off of yourself if you start to lose. In house sessions with your friends, you can set the rules to whatever the hell you want to compensate for skill balance issues.

Anyways, the point is Smash controls being easier don't really have all that much to do with the game being more accessible itself. It's actually an incredibly small factor. Focusing on that in every fighting game thread on GAF is getting extremely tedious, because most people who have played fighting games past the earliest stages know the problems rarely ever come down to the controls.

As a Smash player this is very well said.

Originally Posted by Anne

This isn't entirely true. They wouldn't have stuck around for that long if that was the case. They solve a few issues on their own like:

Adding artificial start up to moves to balance out quick start up
Generally help avoid overlapping inputs
Force you to commit to doing a motion rather than mashing i.e. you can't block and input a DP motion at the same time

And those are the basic ones. There are games like Rising Thunder, Persona, etc that have special moves tied to macro buttons. All of those games have to make certain concessions with those moves due to how they are input when compared to other traditional fighters. These "antiquated" motions actually have real reasons they are still used. We can prove that by looking at the differences of games that have already done motionless inputs.

Edit: forgot to mention that games like SF4/V and what NRS makes all have inputs made to be more lenient for easier use on a controller too.

Yeah, newer games make it more lenient for sure for pad users which is great.

Originally Posted by AquaWateria

There's reason why most fighting games do not sell much and that genre isn't as popular these days that isn't with the hardcore.

I do not understand why people are jumping OP when he is giving some good points. He is not even trying to shit on your favorite games which some of y'all are acting like.

Ideally accessibility is something most fighting games need in my opinion otherwise only the hardcore will play them. Although there are exceptions like Injustice with its big beefy campaign.

Yeah, but ideally you want to keep a balance. I really dislike how some developers like Capcom make stuff like controls more lenient, combos easier to do, but do fuck all to make a good tutorial, good matchmaking, etc. Controls are just one part of the equation. Or even good single player content like Injustice will at least give newer players a place to fool around in before they're comfortable to go online and play ranked (if they choose to do so).

I also don't think that every game needs to necessarily go the way of Smash/ARMS with simple control schemes. There's pros and cons for control schemes like Street Fighter as Anne has pointed out.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 02:46 PM)

Originally Posted by Mista Koo

Yes. But as much as I appreciate being able to perform every move, Smash and Arms are just different subgenres of fighting games that I enjoy less than traditional fighters.

IMO motion commands are antiquated as they were A) designed as secret moves that not everyone can perform B) not designed with controllers in mind.
I really like what Rising Thunder (top) and Fantasy Strike (bottom) are doing when it comes to revisiting Street Fighter controls.

I think these are a good example of another pro of fighting game inputs. They condense movesets into something manageable for gameplay.

A layout like this may work for a game with fewer options like rising thunder, but for games with more attack buttons and more special moves per character you'd end up with button numbers in the double digits for some games, vs the standard 4-6 designers are able to get their games down to using arcade motions
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

I think these are a good example of another pro of fighting game inputs. They condense movesets into something manageable for gameplay.

A layout like this may work for a game with fewer options like rising thunder, but for games with more attack buttons and more special moves per character you'd end up with button numbers in the double digits for some games.

I'd find dealing with that more unreasonable than quarter circle motions

Maybe all the characters could share the quarter circle input though, and they all do something different by character? Not sure if quarter circle really maps to an in-game action exactly anyway.
Zissou
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(07-17-2017, 02:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Maybe all the characters could share the quarter circle input though, and they all do something different by character? Not sure if quarter circle really maps to an in-game action exactly anyway.

A small number of special move inputs reused across the cast of the game is already how fighting games generally work.
catashtrophe
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:55 PM)
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Used only 2 buttons and gave you a variety of moves you could do with them
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:56 PM)
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Maybe so. It's also the reason I prefer traditional fighting games.

Mashing buttons is the equivalent of not being able to move and aim at the same time in a Fps.

Learn the basics in one game and some of those skills transfer across most fighting games
Stat Flow
He gonna cry in the car
(07-17-2017, 02:59 PM)
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Melee is the GOAT fighter
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by AquaWateria

I do not understand why people are jumping OP when he is giving some good points.

OP's points drastically overstate how hard fighting game inputs are, fails to acknowledge why they exist and how they are used, and then starts going on about how controls = accessibility. None of those are good points at all. If you want to make points about how accessible Arms or Smash can be,there are plenty of other ones to make. Target demo and platform, using other more common game formats than a traditional fighting game, or having multiple play options in the game are all things to talk about. Controls are a very small part of this whole thing. Hell, there are many arguments you can make about Smash controls in particular not being perfect with how difficult it is to deal with overlapping movement and other attacks.

It's not a very good thread, and fighting game fans are of course going to let you know about it because it's really ignorant of how these things really work. It's like back in the day how people would say Starcraft was just a clickfest with no strategy. It's that level of absurdly dumb.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Zissou

A small number of special move inputs reused across the cast of the game is already how fighting games generally work.

You could even say that most games use the same small number of special move inputs at this point. and that number is getting increasingly smaller going forward because of threads like this.
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

You could even say that most games use the same small number of special move inputs at this point. and that number is getting increasingly smaller going forward because of threads like this.

It's not really cause threads like this tbh. It's because those motions have established reasons to keep using them while others (read:SNK inputs) don't. Games that are using even less traditional inputs tend to have other design decisions they are aiming for in general rather than just accessibility concerns.
nded
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zissou

A small number of special move inputs reused across the cast of the game is already how fighting games generally work.

Yeah, there's really only about five basic motions that are used throughout all move lists in SF. Maybe seven if we count mashing for Chun's lightning kicks and pressing three buttons at the same time for Zangief's lariat.

Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Maybe all the characters could share the quarter circle input though, and they all do something different by character? Not sure if quarter circle really maps to an in-game action exactly anyway.

That would lead to certain characters like Guile or Zangief being either OP or their moves nerfed and homogenized to an extent that they'd be unrecognizable. Not to mention that their respective charge and 360 move sets offer alternative styles of play that, y'know, some people actually like.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Anne

It's not really cause threads like this tbh. It's because those motions have established reasons to keep using them while others (read:SNK inputs) don't. Games that are using even less traditional inputs tend to have other design decisions they are aiming for in general rather than just accessibility concerns.

What's the reason for 22 inputs seemingly replacing DPs in a couple upcoming games? (MvCI and DBZF)

I know there's very good reasons for why wild stuff like SNK inputs or Raging Demon specials like in VSAV have been phased out, but I can't imagine why we're losing things as basic as DP or double motions for supers.
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Maybe all the characters could share the quarter circle input though, and they all do something different by character? Not sure if quarter circle really maps to an in-game action exactly anyway.

For the record, on this point, there was a game that already kinda did this. Persona 4 Arena only had quarter circle inputs for special moves with the one exception of having a couple charge moves ( I mean literally like 3 I can think of off the top of my head). Everything else was handled through universal macros that you could do with any character. The game even had autocombos!

Spoiler: This didn't really affect the accessibility to a significant enough degree to create staying power with a casual playerbase. It's more proof that you can't just simplify inputs and have that happen. It comes down to a lot of other factors.

Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

What's the reason for 22 inputs seemingly replacing DPs in a couple upcoming games? (MvCI and DBZF)

I know there's very good reasons for why wild stuff like SNK inputs or Raging Demon specials like in VSAV have been phased out, but I can't imagine why we're losing something as basic as DP or double motions for supers.

Has a bit to do with making the motion easier, but it also exists to more directly nerf movement and encourage you to use the moves differently. It's not really that much easier to do than a traditional DP motion, but it changes how you use the move while also directly punishing people that want to wavedash.
SeeNoWeevil
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(07-17-2017, 03:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rmagnus

Wow FGC seems a tad rough on folks who feels spending hours practising is not fun. Different folks have different strokes.

It's always been this way ever since I can remember. They don't want someone coming along and beating them purely by out-thinking them.
IvorB
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:13 PM)
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Yes, 2D fighters have very abstract and unintuitive controls. Maybe OP should try a 3D fighter. Tekken, for example, has a very intuitive control scheme.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:13 PM)

Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

It's always been this way ever since I can remember. They don't want someone coming along and beating them purely by out-thinking them.

oh my goooooooooooooooooood
Izuna
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(07-17-2017, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

It's always been this way ever since I can remember. They don't want someone coming along and beating them purely by out-thinking them.

Lol

You should play better fighting games maybe.
tsundoku
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(07-17-2017, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the cheat codes needed for special moves and combos.

Y I K E S
lyrick
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(07-17-2017, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by nded

Yeah, there's really only about five basic motions that are used throughout all move lists in SF. Maybe seven if we count mashing for Chun's lightning kicks and pressing three buttons at the same time for Zangief's lariat.

Even Street Fighter motions are not "Basic", they're less complex than the bullshit some clones came up with in the 90's, but quarter/half circles, the dragon punch motion and much of the other Super move patterns are the reason more traditional fighting games today barely sell what they did back in the 90s despite the gaming market being at least an order of magnitude larger.

It's almost like they're still targeting the exact same audience that hasn't grown at all in 20+ years.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
(07-17-2017, 03:18 PM)
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Divekick is my favourite fighting game of all time. 2 buttons. Very easy to underatand and learn, and best of all if I haven't played it in a long time and go back to it, it clicks straight away no matter which character I choose.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Izuna

Lol

You should play better fighting games maybe.

I play SFV, T7 and MKX, what do you play?
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:18 PM)

Originally Posted by lyrick

Even Street Fighter motions are not "Basic", they're less complex than the bullshit some clones came up with in the 90's, but quarter/half circles, the dragon punch motion and much of the other Super move patterns are the reason more traditional fighting games today barely sell what they did back in the 90s despite the gaming market being at least an order of magnitude larger.

I don't think that's the reason tbh

Originally Posted by Anne


Has a bit to do with making the motion easier, but it also exists to more directly nerf movement and encourage you to use the moves differently. It's not really that much easier to do than a traditional DP motion, but it changes how you use the move while also directly punishing people that want to wavedash.

Why would they want to nerf movement though? Especially in a new game like DBZ with no history of wavedashing, or a real need for it given its mechanics and movement options
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:23 PM)
Most fighters (and other games) seems to willingly make the input extra complicated without necessity.

When I realize that the developers are made the controls complicated without reason, only to pretend to be hardcore or simply not good enough to make controls only as "complicated" as necessary, I lose interest in a game.

Nintendo is normally very good at making games :D so controls are almost always great, but there are exceptions (looking at you Starfox Zero).
nded
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

I play SFV, T7 and MKX, what do you play?

If you get beaten by someone whose only apparent skill is never dropping an input, then you probably weren't "out-thinking" them.
Hueytothe
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:26 PM)

Originally Posted by lyrick

Even Street Fighter motions are not "Basic", they're less complex than the bullshit some clones came up with in the 90's, but quarter/half circles, the dragon punch motion and much of the other Super move patterns are the reason more traditional fighting games today barely sell what they did back in the 90s despite the gaming market being at least an order of magnitude larger.

It's almost like they're still targeting the exact same audience that hasn't grown at all in 20+ years.

I hate this mentality that Inputs are archaic and unintuitive because they actually are intuitive to the games design. In smash brother every character has 3 side b moves and 3 tilts. I play a street fighter character with 6 regular normal attacks, 3 command normals, and 5 special moves. Every special move and normal has utility. If you relegated special moves to a direction + button it would eliminate command normals from the equation. You also possibly negate the possibility of ex moves. You're removing layers from the games depth. You could not design the character I play with smash inputs.
Anne
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

Why would they want to nerf movement though? Especially in a new game like DBZ with no history of wavedashing, or a real need for it given its mechanics and movement options

oh I forgot about DBZF. I don't know tbh. It could be they are chasing the same control concerns, but how these things normally happen I'm willing to bet there's a system reason. I just don't know enough about the game to say. You normally put things on an input like that when you expect characters to be moving around the screen in certain ways or have attacks coming from diff angles. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Akatsuki Blitzkampf, but that game is all sorts of weird.
SeeNoWeevil
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(07-17-2017, 03:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by nded

If you get beaten by someone whose only apparent skill is never dropping an input, then you probably weren't "out-thinking" them.

You're not making much sense. With good execution you can make considerably less correct reads and still take the match; depending on the game, obviously.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:31 PM)

Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

You're not making much sense. With good execution you can make considerably less correct reads and still take the match; depending on the game, obviously.

You're not really making any sense yourself...

I've never seen anyone phrase consistently not dropping combos as being a bad thing, or something that compensates for a lack of something else
GenG3000
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(07-17-2017, 03:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hueytothe

I play a street fighter character with 6 regular normal attacks, 3 command normals, and 5 special moves. Every special move and normal has utility. If you You could not design the character I play with smash inputs.

Sakurai proved with Ryu in Smash that it can be done, while even giving the possibility of playing with inputs if you want.

It's just laziness from the FG companies at this point.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:32 PM)

Originally Posted by GenG3000

Sakurai proved with Ryu in Smash that it can be done, while even giving the possibility of playing with inputs if you want.

It's just laziness from the FG companies at this point.

I don't think he has all the moves he does in SF. Like it's impossible
Hueytothe
Member
(07-17-2017, 03:33 PM)

Originally Posted by GenG3000

Sakurai proved with Ryu in Smash that it can be done, while even giving the possibility of playing with inputs if you want.

It's just laziness from the FG companies at this point.

Ryu has less special moves than my character, Ryu has no ex moves in smash. Tapping the a button lightly and hard pressing it to distinguish between light and medium attacks is way harder that actually having s pirate buttons for light and medium attacks.
The Fatal Englishman
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(07-17-2017, 03:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

You're not making much sense. With good execution you can make considerably less correct reads and still take the match; depending on the game, obviously.

Execution borders on irrelevant in SF5 for anyone who has even a small amount of interest in fighting games.

The fact that execution is basically irrelevant hasn't impacted who is doing well in all of the tournaments. The same old SF vets are sitting in the top 8s. Nobody has come along and 'out-thunk' them. The only new face that has turned up is Punk, and his reaction time is off the charts so you better believe he has no problems with execution.
danmaku
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(07-17-2017, 03:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by SeeNoWeevil

It's always been this way ever since I can remember. They don't want someone coming along and beating them purely by out-thinking them.

Play a turn based game, then. As long as a game is played in real time, there will be an execution level.
andymcc
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:37 PM)
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I'm a pretty big fan of arms and have given smash its fair shake over the years and I appreciate their way of easing players into them more than other fighters but goddamn if they're not so boring to watch.
FSLink
Banned
(07-17-2017, 03:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

What's the reason for 22 inputs seemingly replacing DPs in a couple upcoming games? (MvCI and DBZF)

I know there's very good reasons for why wild stuff like SNK inputs or Raging Demon specials like in VSAV have been phased out, but I can't imagine why we're losing things as basic as DP or double motions for supers.

22 is easier on pad and easier to auto correct Uppercut with. So it's to make things easier for the majority of users. I'm primarily a stick user so I'm kinda annoyed at it since 22 is harder for me than 623 on a stick.

Originally Posted by GenG3000

Sakurai proved with Ryu in Smash that it can be done, while even giving the possibility of playing with inputs if you want.

It's just laziness from the FG companies at this point.

No. I love Smash but Ryu has a lot of input overlap that makes him tough for a newcomer. I never miss a DP in SF but I can miss it in Smash. Also the inputs are not just a possibility, the motion versions of his attacks are more powerful so you're losing out quite a bit if you're trying to play him beyond just bare basics.
Rutger
Banned
(07-17-2017, 04:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Aaronrules380

I mean you're allowed to like something that isn't intuitive. But I'm kind of sick of people acting like not finding the controls of fighting games incredibly unintuitive isn't a problem or a huge barrier of entry for the genre.

Like, I'm a huge fan of competitive pokemon, but I fully recognize there are a ton of stupid barriers to entry and a huge learning curve and I think Gamefreak should do more to get rid of them or ease people into them. I think it's a lot of fun once you learn them, but I do think the barriers to entry are a problem that should be addressed rather than something that should be ignored. It's why I think Pokemon Showdown, which removes many of the barriers, is a fantastic resource for people who want to learn to play competitively.

You've missed my point, and given that the very first thing I said in the post you quoted was "Yes, it's different, it takes some effort to learn at first", I have my doubts that you even truly read through it.

That Pokemon comparison, it doesn't work. I know a good amount about competitive Pokemon too, IVs and EVs are much closer mechanics where we can choose certain things before a match that will slightly change the character(things like which assist a character has in a team game) because these concepts are about modifying our character/Pokemon to play different roles.

The reason these inputs continue to exist is because it's the simplest possible method to give these characters the number of options that they have, even if it's not the simplest possible way to make controls in a game. There's also some more complex reasons with how their existence affects how situations play out in a match, but I want to keep it simple.

Originally Posted by Stopdoor

I guess my point is inputs being universal for each character while still being complex might be interesting. The fact there's so many button combos is an overwhelming memorization effort that ARMS or Nidhogg doesn't have. Maybe if you learned the inputs for Ryu and it applied to every other character but with different effects, that'd be cool.

They typically are universal. Characters will often use inputs in different ways, but once one learns them then they will transfer across characters and fighting games.

The first thing I do in any new fighting game is go into training mode to see what a character's buttons do(even Smash), and before I even look at a command list I'll run through those inputs to see what I can do with them. It's not really a 1 to 1 transfer, but it also doesn't need to be, there is something of value in making characters feel different.

Originally Posted by GenG3000

Sakurai proved with Ryu in Smash that it can be done, while even giving the possibility of playing with inputs if you want.

It's just laziness from the FG companies at this point.

...
Ryu does not have all the options he does in a SF game, and he's one of the most basic characters in the genre.

Saying these developers are lazy is insulting. They spend months creating a single character, with some creative movesets that would not be possible in Smash. They're still lazy because they decided to use a control method that has been proven to work?

No, please, go on and tell me how lazy the people who made a character that plays pool why defeating his enemy are.
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 04:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by nded

Yeah, there's really only about five basic motions that are used throughout all move lists in SF. Maybe seven if we count mashing for Chun's lightning kicks and pressing three buttons at the same time for Zangief's lariat.



That would lead to certain characters like Guile or Zangief being either OP or their moves nerfed and homogenized to an extent that they'd be unrecognizable. Not to mention that their respective charge and 360 move sets offer alternative styles of play that, y'know, some people actually like.

Originally Posted by Anne

For the record, on this point, there was a game that already kinda did this. Persona 4 Arena only had quarter circle inputs for special moves with the one exception of having a couple charge moves ( I mean literally like 3 I can think of off the top of my head). Everything else was handled through universal macros that you could do with any character. The game even had autocombos!

Spoiler: This didn't really affect the accessibility to a significant enough degree to create staying power with a casual playerbase. It's more proof that you can't just simplify inputs and have that happen. It comes down to a lot of other factors.



Has a bit to do with making the motion easier, but it also exists to more directly nerf movement and encourage you to use the moves differently. It's not really that much easier to do than a traditional DP motion, but it changes how you use the move while also directly punishing people that want to wavedash.

I was just spitballing to be honest, my thread isn't about fixing Street Fighter and more about how games without button combos might be a good ramp-up for the fundamentals.
Animagne
Member
(07-17-2017, 05:22 PM)
I don't think Arms does it well at all. For me personally, aiming ruins everything. I would much rather go to tekken, pick up a character, spend 5 minutes to learn the most basic air combo and another 5 to learn basic moves and punishes, than having to deal with aiming. Sure, I might be destroying bad players faster in Arms, but it's just additional complexity that doesn't go away after spending 10 minutes in practice mode.

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