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GenG3000
Member
(07-17-2017, 04:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rutger


Saying these developers are lazy is insulting. They spend months creating a single character, with some creative movesets that would not be possible in Smash. They're still lazy because they decided to use a control method that has been proven to work?

No, please, go on and tell me how lazy the people who made a character that plays pool why defeating his enemy are.

They are lazy for just blindly embracing traditions instead of stopping to question them:
"Let's keep using that 30 year old system of complicated motions and 6 face buttons and make competitive users spend money in a 200$ controller instead of working in a new control system with modern pads!".

It only works because there is nothing else.

I appreciate their hard work in other areas, like character design. But you can get so far being derivative.

Then Smash is more popular than ever and there's still folks that haven't figured it out. You have to try and MAKE a REAL effort as a developer to be inclusive and accesible.
Last edited by GenG3000; 07-17-2017 at 04:35 PM.
Rutger
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

They are lazy for just blindly embracing traditions instead of stopping to question them:
"Let's keep using that 30 year old system of complicated motions and 6 face buttons and make competitive users spend money in a 200$ controller instead of working in a new control system with modern pads!".

It only works because there is nothing else.

I appreciate their hard work in other areas, like character design. But you can get so far being derivative.

Then Smash is more popular than ever and there's still folks that haven't figured it out. You have to try and MAKE a REAL effort as a developer to be inclusive and accesible.

I have made several posts about why these inputs are still used.

I have questioned them, and my conclusion is that there is value to them. I'm sure the people making these games have done the same. These inputs are not still used because of tradition, but because they were created to fulfill a need and they are still fantastic at doing so. Also, there are many top players that play with a pad, arcade sticks are a preference, not a requirement.

You have made a drive by post about Ryu being in Smash, ignoring what is lost in order to make him work in that environment. And you seem to have no interest in understanding what is added to fighting games by not being as simple as Smash and instead just want to call those developers lazy because you don't like how their games control.
Harken Raiser
Penisologist
(07-17-2017, 06:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

They are lazy for just blindly embracing traditions instead of stopping to question them:
"Let's keep using that 30 year old system of complicated motions and 6 face buttons and make competitive users spend money in a 200$ controller instead of working in a new control system with modern pads!"

What fighting games besides Street Fighter use 6 buttons? Just Killer Instinct?
Tekken 7 - 4 buttons
Mortal Kombat X - 4 buttons
Injustice 2 - 4 buttons
KoF 14 - 4 buttons
GG Revaltor - 5 buttons
BlazBlue Central Fiction - 4 buttons
MvCI and Dragon Ball FighterZ are both going to have 4 buttons.

Then Smash is more popular than ever and there's still folks that haven't figured it out. You have to try and MAKE a REAL effort as a developer to be inclusive and accesible.

For Honor made strides in making an innovative accessible fighting game, did you support it?

How about Mirage? That has easy and intuitive melee combat mixed with Overwatch style characters and abilities.

Rivals of Aether is a Smash-like fighter, is that game making bank?
GenG3000
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rutger

You have made a drive by post about Ryu being in Smash, ignoring what is lost in order to make him work in that environment. And you seem to have no interest in understanding what is added to fighting games by not being as simple as Smash and instead just want to call those developers lazy because you don't like how their games control.

If Nintendo could cram in 11 grounded normals, 5 aerials, 3 specials (with variations in damage, distance, knockback and recovery frames, not counting Final Smash attacks because they are situational) and a focus attack in a stick and a two-button setup for a guest character, a dedicated fighting game company could do better if they wanted to. But they don't want to do away with those conventions. They would need to rework the whole system of weak mid strong attacks, and that's too much work.

So much is lost? Again, maybe it's time to think if all these middle kicks and punches in those movesets are needed or if a more streamlined design would be better received. Smash lets you aim some attacks up or down to make it up for the loss of options and sometimes cramming up to three different attacks in a single move like in Little Mac's forward smash. Many chars have autocanceled air attacks or useful non sweetspotted attacks that multiply the available options, like Melee Marth.

It's great that you don't see any problems with the setup most FG adhere to, but the dwindling popularity of traditional fighting games is a fact beyond your opinion and tutorials are not the solution.

Smash is not a gold standard just for how inputs are handled. That's just a result of a proccess. It's a gold standard for adapting to the needs and sensibilities of the major audience and creating an entire system around the available controllers, not asking the controllers to adjust to your 30 year old system. It fought back the conventions and still spitefully mocked today for succeeding at that. It feels good and gives you all the tools to have fun from the get go without sacrificing depth in the long run.
Last edited by GenG3000; 07-17-2017 at 06:49 PM.
Hueytothe
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:52 PM)

Originally Posted by GenG3000

So much is lost? Again, maybe it's time to think if all these middle kicks and punches in those movesets are needed or if a more streamlined design would be better received.

Why should they have to do that, isnt that what smash is already there for.

Originally Posted by GenG3000

It's great that you don't see any problems with the setup most FG adhere to, but the dwindling popularity of traditional fighting games is a fact beyond your opinion and tutorials are not the solution.

What dwindling popularity, the most recent Mortal Kombat, Injustice, and Tekken games are all commercial successes. Street Fighter V performed below expectations because of Capcom's mismanagement.
Harken Raiser
Penisologist
(07-17-2017, 07:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hueytothe

What dwindling popularity, the most recent Mortal Kombat, Injustice, and Tekken games are all commercial successes. Street Fighter V performed below expectations because of Capcom's mismanagement.

GenG3000, like a lot of people who complain about fighting games, thinks that Street Fighter is the only fighting game that exists.
Spinosaurus
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:15 PM)
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Smash Ryu lost everything that made him a great design, he's so monotone. He can't even play footsies in Smash.

A character that's designed to have an answer to every situation shouldn't translate to one whose only worth is an early kill confirm.
Rutger
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

If Nintendo could cram in 11 grounded normals, 5 aerials, 3 specials (with variations in damage, distance, knockback and recovery frames, not counting Final Smash attacks because they are situational) and a focus attack in a stick and a two-button setup for a guest character,

They have to cram all that into two buttons and it doesn't let the character do everything they normally can. I'm supposed to be happy about that?

Originally Posted by GenG3000

They would need to rework the whole system of weak mid strong attacks, and that's too much work.

But...
Not every fighting game uses weak mid strong attacks...

Originally Posted by GenG3000

Smash lets you aim some attacks up or down to make it up for the loss of options and sometimes cramming up to three different attacks in a single move like in Little Mac's forward smash. Many chars have autocanceled air attacks or useful non sweetspotted attacks that multiply the available options, like Melee Marth.

Wait, you think these things are unique to Smash?
Doing things that are already done in other fighting games doesn't make up for less options.

Originally Posted by GenG3000

It's great that you don't see any problems with the setup most FG adhere to, but the dwindling popularity of traditional fighting games is a fact beyond your opinion and tutorials are not the solution.

Fighting games are not dwindling in popularity. But let's say that they are, what's so wrong about giving fans more of the thing they enjoy even if it's not the most popular genre in the market?

Originally Posted by GenG3000

It feels good and gives you all the tools to have fun from the get go without sacrificing depth in the long run.

These are words I would use for any good fighting game. Just because you don't want to learn how to use the tools doesn't mean that they're not available from the get go.

And lets not pretend Smash has no learning curve at all with its controls, because I remember the younger me having to practice to get tilts consistently instead of smashes, to not jump when I wanted an up tilt. In overloading everything onto two buttons it brought about its own control issues, it's not a big deal once one gets used to it and it doesn't take too much time to do so, but the same can be said for the motions found in fighting games.
『Inaba Resident』
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:30 PM)
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Why do some people seem to think that QCF, SRK, etc. inputs are just arbitrarily there?
Sayad
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:32 PM)
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When people say without complex inputs, have they never seen high level Smash or are they referring to another game?!
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
(07-17-2017, 08:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by 『Inaba Resident』

Why do some people seem to think that QCF, SRK, etc. inputs are just arbitrarily there?

because the don't play fighting games
GenG3000
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hueytothe

Why should they have to do that, isnt that what smash is already there for.

What dwindling popularity, the most recent Mortal Kombat, Injustice, and Tekken games are all commercial successes. Street Fighter V performed below expectations because of Capcom's mismanagement.

Tekken 7 was not doing too hot (ARMS seemed to do better in Japan) and the anime fighters (Arcsys output basically) are barely talked about outside forums.
mebizzle
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 08:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

They are lazy for just blindly embracing traditions instead of stopping to question them:
"Let's keep using that 30 year old system of complicated motions and 6 face buttons and make competitive users spend money in a 200$ controller instead of working in a new control system with modern pads!".

It only works because there is nothing else.

I appreciate their hard work in other areas, like character design. But you can get so far being derivative.

Then Smash is more popular than ever and there's still folks that haven't figured it out. You have to try and MAKE a REAL effort as a developer to be inclusive and accesible.

It's funny because there were tons of pad players at EVO this weekend. A pad player won UMVC3, a game where you used to be laughed at if you didn't play on stick. You don't have to spend money on a fight stick, and at least you don't have to track down a defective controller produced in 2001.

Smash is just as derivative from it's prior installments as other games, moreso in some cases when you look at how the engines have evolved in Capcom games, or even how the MK games have evolved (sprite-based to full 3d weapon/stance fighter to 2.5d
MotionBlue
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:20 PM)
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So according to this thread, Smash is simutaenously:

The simplest/easiest casual fighting game
the most complex, high skill ceiling game
the most innovative fighting game of all time

Oh, and Fighting game devs should try to be more like the innovative Smash series.
(A series that is actually older than most of the anime fighters.)

Originally Posted by Jackstin

Nintendo games are the best.
Nintendo fans are the worst.

Yeah. I think that about sums it up.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
(07-17-2017, 09:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Anne

oh I forgot about DBZF. I don't know tbh. It could be they are chasing the same control concerns, but how these things normally happen I'm willing to bet there's a system reason. I just don't know enough about the game to say. You normally put things on an input like that when you expect characters to be moving around the screen in certain ways or have attacks coming from diff angles. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Akatsuki Blitzkampf, but that game is all sorts of weird.

I liked Akatsuki but what was weird about it? Been a while since I played it.
Skilletor
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(07-17-2017, 09:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

Tekken 7 was not doing too hot (ARMS seemed to do better in Japan) and the anime fighters (Arcsys output basically) are barely talked about outside forums.

Aren't BlazBlue and Tekken two of the most popular fighters in Japan?

Trick question, the answer is yes.
David___
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by GenG3000

Tekken 7 was not doing too hot (ARMS seemed to do better in Japan) and the anime fighters (Arcsys output basically) are barely talked about outside forums.

Tekken 7 was literally supported for 2 years in the arcade alone before it came to console. What even is this
Last edited by David___; 07-17-2017 at 09:56 PM.
MotionBlue
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:03 PM)
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Woops, wrong thread.
Last edited by MotionBlue; 07-17-2017 at 10:06 PM.
CO_Andy
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:07 PM)
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if Smash is so groundbreaking then how come there aren't any other commercially successful clones?
lyrick
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by CO_Andy

if Smash is so groundbreaking then how come there aren't any other commercially successful clones?

Yeah, Why was PSABR a piece of shit?
Spinosaurus
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(07-17-2017, 10:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Skilletor

Aren't BlazBlue and Tekken two of the most popular fighters in Japan?

Trick question, the answer is yes.

Yeah aren't those two like straight up the two most popular in Japan? Blazblue is really big there lol.
Vital Tundra
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by MotionBlue

So according to this thread, Smash is simutaenously:

The simplest/easiest casual fighting game
the most complex, high skill ceiling game
the most innovative fighting game of all time

Oh, and Fighting game devs should try to be more like the innovative Smash series.
(A series that is actually older than most of the anime fighters.)



Yeah. I think that about sums it up.

It is a bit ridiculous, though I am of the opinion that Melee is one of the best fighting games ever made, even if I enjoy 4 way more. It does have an incredibly low floor and incredibly high ceiling though.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-17-2017, 10:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by QisTopTier

because the don't play fighting games

Bingo. You can instantly tell who does and doesn't play them in threads like these.
Dr Thor
Junior Member
(07-17-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the button combos needed for special moves and combos.

This is honestly the most bizarre paragraph I've ever seen on this forum. There is absolutely no difference in level of abstraction between a punch button that -- get this -- makes punches happen, and the A button in Smash that makes normal attacks happen. If anything, the Smash version is more abstracted.

This is your hangup, OP, and nothing to do with the games in question.

Guarding in Smash Bros. is "hold the shield button to shield on the spot, roll around if you want to get away, do it in the air if you get hit in the air". Not sure why that's hard to explain? Guarding in most fighting games, you have no room to breath so I have no idea what the expected follow up is, vs. in Smash the easy explanation is "get away".

The whole point of fighting games, including Smash, is that actually being good at it requires learning the game systems and using them to your advantage. Smash has easy basic inputs, but the inputs required to be actually good are far from simple. To use your example above, there's a hell of a lot more you can do in Smash to respond to an attack beyond just blocking and rolling.
Stopdoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 11:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by 『Inaba Resident』

Why do some people seem to think that QCF, SRK, etc. inputs are just arbitrarily there?

Because games like ARMS, Nidhogg, etc. do 1v1 on a compelling level based more on spacing and timing. Yeah, the inputs help add diverse moves, but I'm curious if we could see more diversification without them as well.

Originally Posted by QisTopTier

because the don't play fighting games

Hey, ARMS is a fighting game. It apes the 1v1 competition and depth of one without the apparently necessary button combos.

Originally Posted by Dr Thor

This is honestly the most bizarre paragraph I've ever seen on this forum. There is absolutely no difference in level of abstraction between a punch button that -- get this -- makes punches happen, and the A button in Smash that makes normal attacks happen. If anything, the Smash version is more abstracted.

This is your hangup, OP, and nothing to do with the games in question.



The whole point of fighting games, including Smash, is that actually being good at it requires learning the game systems and using them to your advantage. Smash has easy basic inputs, but the inputs required to be actually good are far from simple. To use your example above, there's a hell of a lot more you can do in Smash to respond to an attack beyond just blocking and rolling.

I'm just saying that there's nothing explained in even tutorials what the difference between a punch and kick are. It just seems to be hitboxes that vary by character? Lumping that all into "basic attack" lets a basic player know they have the option to attack, or do something else. Not weigh their options between 6 different variations of "basic attack" that are otherwise given no other context.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
(07-17-2017, 11:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Hey, ARMS is a fighting game. It apes the 1v1 competition and depth of one without the apparently necessary button combos. .

That game is extremely shallow as a byproduct. So no it didn't ape the depth of one. That is literally footsies the game and it ends there pretty much. When Pokken has more depth than something then that something is too shallow. Nothing wrong with having fun with it, but it is not a good example.
Spinosaurus
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(07-17-2017, 11:32 PM)
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ARMs atm reeaallly doesn't strike me as a game with the kind of depth you'd find in other fighting games. So far it's more about counterpunching and beating your opponents' punch and less microspacing and whiff punishment, and then nothing else. It's why characters like Kid Cobra and Min Min strive rn because of how big their arms get, while having the mobility to just dodge everything. It's early to say but okizeme feels non-existent too. It's a far cry from Street Fighter or Smash neutral game.

You'd be right if you're talking about Divekick, but I can't agree with ARMs.
Last edited by Spinosaurus; 07-17-2017 at 11:39 PM.
Stopdoor
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(07-17-2017, 11:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by QisTopTier

That game is extremely shallow as a byproduct. So no it didn't ape the depth of one. That is literally footsies the game and it ends there pretty much. When Pokken has more depth than something then that something is too shallow. Nothing wrong with having fun with it, but it is not a good example.

Originally Posted by Spinosaurus

ARMs atm reeaallly doesn't strike me as a game with the kind of depth you'd find in other fighting games. So far it's more about counterpunching and beating your opponents' punch and less microspacing and whiff punishment, and then nothing else. It's why characters like Kid Cobra and Min Min strive rn because of how big their arms get, while having the mobility to just dodge everything. It's early to say but okizeme feels non-existent too. It's a far cry from Street Fighter or Smash neutral game.

You'd be right if you're talking about Divekick, but I can't agree with ARMs.

Even if it's not perfect, you have to admit the design has interesting potential that could be free of "button combos" for focus on something else.
andymcc
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(07-17-2017, 11:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Even if it's not perfect, you have to admit the design has interesting potential that could be free of "button combos" for focus on something else.

How's that much different than Gundam Versus?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
(07-17-2017, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Even if it's not perfect, you have to admit the design has interesting potential that could be free of "button combos" for focus on something else.

It's fun for what it is, but it will never become something as intense or as deep as stuff shown during the top 8's at evo yesterday, because having motions for attacks let's the devs expand move sets and give a larger variety of value to said moves based on execution required.

Like let's take Ragna the Bloodedge from BlazBlue the main character and one of the most basic in the game. Counting everythng he can do as an attack (normals, specials, supers)

He has 42 attacks

This is from a 4 button game
Last edited by QisTopTier; 07-17-2017 at 11:52 PM.
Clawww
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(07-17-2017, 11:49 PM)
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I don't get why there's so much entitlement regarding accessibility with fighting games in particular. I never see people hoping the next starcraft is simplified enough to be playable on their smartphone or whatever.
andymcc
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(07-17-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Clawww

I don't get why there's so much entitlement regarding accessibility with fighting games in particular. I never see people hoping the next starcraft is simplified enough to be playable on their smartphone or whatever.

Because people don't want to spend time learning gameplay systems.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
(07-17-2017, 11:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by andymcc

Because people don't want to spend time learning gameplay systems.

More like people just want to win, but guess what even if it's something simple like Arms the people that are better at fighting games and understand footsies and all that jazz are typically going to always SLAUGHTER the pick and play for fun people then the cycle of complaining about how fighters are not accessible continues
『Inaba Resident』
Member
(07-18-2017, 12:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stopdoor

Because games like ARMS, Nidhogg, etc. do 1v1 on a compelling level based more on spacing and timing. Yeah, the inputs help add diverse moves, but I'm curious if we could see more diversification without them as well.

The inputs aren't arbitrary because characters are fully designed around them. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom. If you were to take SF4 Guile and make his Sonic Boom a QCF input instead, you completely break the character. In fact, that's exactly what happened with SSF4 on 3DS. Guile was able to do all of his charge moves at any point (Neutral, walking forward, etc.) with just the press of a button. And guess what? He was insanely overpowered. You can't just say "Why don't fighting games just change the inputs? X, Y, and Z don't have those inputs and they play fine". Those games are designed around their input system much like every other fighting game is.

And how do you add more "diversification" with less options?
David___
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(07-18-2017, 12:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Clawww

I don't get why there's so much entitlement regarding accessibility with fighting games in particular. I never see people hoping the next starcraft is simplified enough to be playable on their smartphone or whatever.

Instant gratification. It just so happens FGs are considered more niche, so they continuously snipe at that remark ad nauseam
tenderbrew
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(07-18-2017, 12:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by QisTopTier


Like let's take Ragna the Bloodedge from BlazBlue the main character and one of the most basic in the game. Counting everythng he can do as an attack (normals, specials, supers)

He has 42 attacks

This is from a 4 button game

This is my problem. I know people see this as super rad and it is. But I'm never going to delve that deeply in and if I do I'm not going to do well with the style of inputs. I literally got stuck in an Injustice tutorial once because I could not perform the combo required to move forward which had some half circles after other inputs. I don't care if you laugh it - its funny. But the timing just makes zero sense in my brain.

So I'm glad games with simpler inputs exist for someone like me. Whether they are better or not (which seems to be what a lot of the discussion devolves into) is kind of irrelevant.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
(07-18-2017, 12:28 AM)
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NRS combos are a bit on the wack side, they don't teach you that you need to input everything almost all at once for strings and special cancels instead of waiting for it to happen on screen. This isn't normal for most fighters and is typically found in 3d fighters that have short attack strings, so it's wack because while some combos have timings for the most part each part of a combo in a nrs game is JUST DO IT
Last edited by QisTopTier; 07-18-2017 at 12:31 AM.
boiled goose
good with gravy
(07-18-2017, 12:34 AM)
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I think smash might not be the best example.

It didn't have formal long input combos but they exist anyways. Inputs are comparable. Maybe what it did though is standardize specials inputs.

All character specials are b, up b, side b, down b. Different from mk and sf. You still have to memorize what specials do though, as they do wildly different things

Arms is definitely more simple regarding inputs
Clawww
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(07-18-2017, 12:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by QisTopTier

It's fun for what it is, but it will never become something as intense or as deep as stuff shown during the top 8's at evo yesterday, because having motions for attacks let's the devs expand move sets and give value to said moves based on execution required.

Like let's take Ragna the Bloodedge from BlazBlue the main character and one of the most basic in the game. Counting everythng he can do as an attack (normals, specials, supers)

He has 42 attacks

This is from a 4 button game

Exactly, it's crazy to see special motions called antiquated when they're actually very elegant, and allow for more moves overall, and more precise control over those moves.

Let's say you have a 4-button game. If you stick to special motions, you can assign several different specials per button using traditional 2D inputs.

But if you want to use simple directional inputs for special moves, you have to either give up command normals on the 4 buttons, dedicate one of the 4 buttons to special moves instead, or add an entire extra button for specials. These are all pretty big trade-offs/considerations from a design standpoint when it comes to the overall game.

With a dedicated special move button and simplified inputs, you can get 5 specials only (4 buttons + neutral), without variations on each individual move.

Using 2D motions easily lets you have more than 5 special moves with way more options to assign them. Even sticking only to QCF and QCB inputs for each of the 4 buttons leaves you at 8 specials, while still allowing command normals on all 4 buttons.

Add in DP, command grab, charge, and super motions and you have a huge amount of potential inputs for each character, which allows for lots of depth and character possibilities. You can do lots of really useful, neat, and logical things like assign kick-based specials to the normal kick buttons, for example. Or having different variations of a QCF move mapped to different buttons. QCF + punch for a horizontal projectile, QCF + kick for an angled projectile. Or fire/ice, or fast/slow, or pretty much whatever options and abilities you want any character to have. (Same considerations also apply in Smash, with B specials broadly suiting their directional inputs, with up+B moves generally travelling vertically , side-B moves horizonally, etc.)

Traditional inputs do their job incredibly well. It's pretty sad seeing actually good design get criticized by people who don't even try to understand it.
Last edited by Clawww; 07-18-2017 at 03:54 AM.
Glitter and Gold
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(07-18-2017, 12:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Clawww

I don't get why there's so much entitlement regarding accessibility with fighting games in particular. I never see people hoping the next starcraft is simplified enough to be playable on their smartphone or whatever.

I think the biggest problem is that Fighting games, to their detriment, fall under the label of console video games, even though I don't really think they have much in common with them nowadays. (PC games have a different audience with different expectations)

This is a problem because they're sold to an audience that has certain content expectations that they really just can't meet. In terms of both content and design.

For example the common expectation that a game should teach you how to play during regular gameplay, or in other words, a game should naturally guide players to solutions. This just isn't really possible in fighting games since most problems are user defined with an open ended solution set. There's no real way to lead the player to "right" answers because the game itself doesn't even define the problems for you. That's just not how they're played

Another example is of content. People expect video games to have lengthy campaigns and unlockables and multiple modes of play and the design of traditional fighting games just isn't really suited to deliver on that. Fighting games have one mode they're really designed and balanced for and the content is the character roster that's the same at hour 2 as it will be at hour 2000.

Even games like smash, which does deliver on all those expectations, does so at the cost of being competitive. To be competitive, smash has to enforce an extremely strict player defined ruleset that cuts out a lot of that variety.

Basically fighting games are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. What makes them Fighting games is at odds with modern expectations of video games and there's no real good compromise.
Last edited by Glitter and Gold; 07-18-2017 at 12:54 AM.
Anne
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(07-18-2017, 02:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Clawww

I don't get why there's so much entitlement regarding accessibility with fighting games in particular. I never see people hoping the next starcraft is simplified enough to be playable on their smartphone or whatever.

Back when Starcraft and RTS in general were alive this was totally a thing. People wanted to make games that were about "winning with strategy instead of just being a clickfest." Most of them sucked ass to a crazy degree. Eventually the genre ended up splitting across that line into MOBA vs 4X and turn based stuff as a result. It's pretty neat to go back and look at.
Professor Beef
holds a doctorate in beef
(07-18-2017, 04:27 AM)
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Next time a thread like this pops up, look for the people who complain about not being able to do combos

It's like birdwatching, but hilarious
David___
Member
(07-18-2017, 05:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Professor Beef

Next time a thread like this pops up, look for the people who complain about not being able to do combos

It's like birdwatching, but hilarious

I always do, and it is hilarious
Alchemy
Member
(07-18-2017, 05:05 AM)
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L3 for block in ARMS is all that needs to be said. Its a fucking shitshow.
Mr Blue Sky
Junior Member
(07-18-2017, 07:32 AM)
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This topic reminds me of when MKX came out and all my friends started playing it and wanted to get better. I've been heavy into fighting games for a while so I tried my best to lend them a hand and slowly teach them things like how to do combos and stuff like that. What this showed me the most is that to the uninitiated, fighting games are the absolute hardest games to play and are basically soul crushing. I can understand that it's difficult for people who've been playing these types of games their entire lives to get into the mindset of a player who knows absolutely nothing about them, and I think that's why sometimes you see people quick to jump to the conclusion that new players are looking for a "press A for awesome" button or basically telling them to "git gud".

From my experience trying to teach people to play, it ends up more becoming a practice of somehow breaking the news to people that before they can even really start playing the game in earnest, they'll have to practice, possibly for hours or days, just to be trash at a game. I understand that you can't expect to win every match when you're starting out and losing is part of the process, but newbies aren't even really allowed to answer the question of "Am I even having fun playing this game?" before they're getting absolutely destroyed and being called garbage or scrubs. Most fighting games don't really make the learning process any easier on the player, and even the ones with good tutorials can leave newbie players confused when things start to get complicated and seemingly almost expect a knowledgeable person to be there to help with execution, or using outside sources like youtube tutorials to break things down to their simplest.

That's why I get what the OP is trying to say, that bringing players up to the most basic of basic levels and allowing them to "actually play" in stuff like Smash and Arms is pretty easy and something Nintendo should be commended for. In smash, learning how to control one character means you have a basic understanding of how to control and attack with every character in the game, special moves and all, and the inputs for doing everything are pretty simple. In arms, stuff like moving and attacking is all very intuitive as well, and getting into the deeper mechanics of both of these titles doesn't take long at all as the beginning learning process for each allows a player to answer the question "Do I even like/have fun playing this game?" very quickly.

Going forward I'd love to see more games iterate on new newb friendly crutches and learning tools, and stuff like the auto combos and "stylish mode" in games like MvC and Arc System Works titles should honestly become more of a standard, to help people who have no idea what they're doing get a foot in the door so that beginning period of learning how to play isn't as crushing as past experiences. That way, even games with complex inputs can be relatively welcoming in a sense, letting people have fun before it gets time to get serious.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
(07-18-2017, 09:31 AM)
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People are too fixated on being able to pick up a game win as fast as possible.
danmaku
Member
(07-18-2017, 09:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

I think the biggest problem is that Fighting games, to their detriment, fall under the label of console video games, even though I don't really think they have much in common with them nowadays. (PC games have a different audience with different expectations)

This is a problem because they're sold to an audience that has certain content expectations that they really just can't meet. In terms of both content and design.

For example the common expectation that a game should teach you how to play during regular gameplay, or in other words, a game should naturally guide players to solutions. This just isn't really possible in fighting games since most problems are user defined with an open ended solution set. There's no real way to lead the player to "right" answers because the game itself doesn't even define the problems for you. That's just not how they're played

Another example is of content. People expect video games to have lengthy campaigns and unlockables and multiple modes of play and the design of traditional fighting games just isn't really suited to deliver on that. Fighting games have one mode they're really designed and balanced for and the content is the character roster that's the same at hour 2 as it will be at hour 2000.

Even games like smash, which does deliver on all those expectations, does so at the cost of being competitive. To be competitive, smash has to enforce an extremely strict player defined ruleset that cuts out a lot of that variety.

Basically fighting games are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. What makes them Fighting games is at odds with modern expectations of video games and there's no real good compromise.

This is a very good post. I never saw it that way, but it makes perfect sense. During the 90s, consoles were mostly about having arcade style games at home. Fighters were a perfect fit. Now, console gaming is totally different and competitive gaming is mainly on PC.
Mista Koo
Member
(07-18-2017, 10:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anne

This isn't entirely true. They wouldn't have stuck around for that long if that was the case. They solve a few issues on their own like:

snip

Edit: forgot to mention that games like SF4/V and what NRS makes all have inputs made to be more lenient for easier use on a controller too.

That's not how the world works. Old standards aren't still in use because they are the best, they are just how things are. And if they rethought the controls for sequels they could've solved these issues in different ways.

And I'll give you that NRS makes controllers a priority, SF doesn't. You wouldn't see Capcom and top players use fight sticks if that was the case.

Originally Posted by Glitter and Gold

I think these are a good example of another pro of fighting game inputs. They condense movesets into something manageable for gameplay.

A layout like this may work for a game with fewer options like rising thunder, but for games with more attack buttons and more special moves per character you'd end up with button numbers in the double digits for some games, vs the standard 4-6 designers are able to get their games down to using arcade motions

My issue isn't with the number of buttons, for all I care give me a layout that requires clicking analogs and the touchpad. Modern controls use modifiers, use that.
danmaku
Member
(07-18-2017, 10:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mista Koo

That's not how the world works. Old standards aren't still in use because they are the best, they are just how things are. And if they rethought the controls for sequels they could've solved these issues in different ways.

And I'll give you that NRS makes controllers a priority, SF doesn't. You wouldn't see Capcom and top players use fight sticks if that was the case.

Top players use pads all the time. Luffy won EVO with a fucking PS1 pad. Using a stick is just personal preference, all modern fighters are designed to be playable with a pad.
Animagne
Junior Member
(07-18-2017, 10:24 AM)

Originally Posted by Mista Koo

My issue isn't with the number of buttons, for all I care give me a layout that requires clicking analogs and the touchpad. Modern controls use modifiers, use that.

Honestly that would be much much worse. It's easier to wrap your head around to a stick motion, because it resembles the direction of the move you're doing (definitely in games like Tekken, I don't know about Z movement for DP). It feels natural. There's nothing natural about trying to remember which modifier you needed to press. It's already not very good in RPGs, where timing is not as important.

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