Son Of Sparda
Member
iirc we actually name dropped Dante's Inferno as an example for that. Fingers crossed that our feedback actually made it to the devs.
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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
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darkslayer101
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfBmq5OQ02c
if DMC5 trailer is close to that then I will be satisfied
if DMC5 trailer is close to that then I will be satisfied
Scalebound might be in trouble. Poor Kamiya.
Let's hope Schick Hydrobot is the new antagonist in DMC5.
Let's hope Schick Hydrobot is the new antagonist in DMC5.
Mr. Smiley
Member
A bit off topic, but yeah Kamiya's apparently taking some time off from Platinum.
Four years on a big, dream project just moot. I hope he gets well.
Four years on a big, dream project just moot. I hope he gets well.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Yeah, really awful news. I hope Kamiya gets well soon.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Holy shit, I had to find this out from watching GamingBrit's latest video.
...And not even from the video itself but a comment at the bottom of it 0_0!
...And not even from the video itself but a comment at the bottom of it 0_0!
Sad stuff, Itsuno got to make his dream project with Dragon's Dogma but it looks like Kamiya's dream is dead
So I started DMC 4:SE for the first time today, and I just beat the plant monster with Nero. The game is all right so far, it's better than the first two games so far but eh at this point I like DMC 3 more and even DmC (maybe it'll change by the end of the game).
I'll just say this though, if DMC5 is ever released please copy the level structure and platforming of DmC. Playing through this just reminded me of how much I hated the backtracking and level structure of the original DMC series.
I'll just say this though, if DMC5 is ever released please copy the level structure and platforming of DmC. Playing through this just reminded me of how much I hated the backtracking and level structure of the original DMC series.
direct_quote
Member
So Itsuno is our last hope? TBH things are looking grim for Platinum, what do they have going next for them that big?
Kaleinc
Banned
If you just finished first she-viper level with Nero I'm not sure what backtracking you're talking about lol.
By backtracking I was talking about DMC series as a whole, specifically 1 and 3 where you have to fetch an item and place it on a pedestal or hit a switch and go back from where you came from. I do know that DMC 4 is infamously bad with Dante's levels being the same as Nero's and fighting the same bosses, unless I was lied to. Some stuff that's annoying me right now on DMC4 specifically is the short cutscene that happens each time you enter a new area with the red borders on the door, and the fixed camera angle changes when you move to a different spot when you're platforming. I just hope if there's a sequel they copy DmCs camera angle and level structure.
On the positive side though, Nero is fun to use as and settings are varied.
On the positive side though, Nero is fun to use as and settings are varied.
They have Nier 2 and Granblue Fantasy.
Well, they COULD do Bayo 3+Bayo 2 remaster on the same disc.
...a man can dream, can't he? If only Sony would fund that shit and make it PS4-exclusive, I'd throw my money at the screen faster than they could announce it.
saw this recently and holy christ this guy's nero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0Bs18en54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m82si4b29EA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrOH0y9GMfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0Bs18en54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m82si4b29EA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrOH0y9GMfs
So I beat Dante/Nero's campaign and eh. The game is really short and copies the original DMC (which is an awful thing.) It feels unfinished with all the backtracking that you do with Dante and the repeated boss fights. I know the rest of the characters are basically a copy of DMC 3 Vergil with no original campaign of their own so I'll probably end up doing their runs a few months down the line, don't feel like boring myself by doing the same exact levels multiple times. Anyway this is how I would rank it in the DMC series
1. DMC 3: SE
2. DmC: DE
3. DMC 4: SE
---
4. DMC 2
5. DMC
Even though Dante and Nero were fun to play as, I can't rank it higher than DMC 3 and DmC with all these flaws showing
1. DMC 3: SE
2. DmC: DE
3. DMC 4: SE
---
4. DMC 2
5. DMC
Even though Dante and Nero were fun to play as, I can't rank it higher than DMC 3 and DmC with all these flaws showing
Eh DMC 3/4 Dante looks better than the DMC 2 counterpart. The only thing that DMC 2 has going for it is being ridiculously overpowered as Dante taking everything down in seconds with his guns which is kinda enjoyable for a while lol
Original DMC doesn't have anything going for it... well maybe the Nelo Angelo boss fights, but the camera hurts it. Both are bad games, but eh DMC 2 amused me when I first played it, but I'll probably never go back and replay the first two games.
I know this will upset some people, but opinions
darkslayer101
Member
its even a stretch calling it opinions when placing DMC2 over DMC...
DMC1 still has great level design art, solid ambient and battle soundtracks and the best enemy design in the series. Every tool that Dante has in the game is usable and you need to squeeze out every mechanic and move in the game for various situations.
I did play it recently as part of the HD collection game still looks nice. The abrupt RE style camera angle shifts are a bummer especially during combat but the rest is still solid (except the underground swimming missions were are legit garbage but DMC2 has them too so DMC2 manages to out crap DMC1 even in that area).
I did play it recently as part of the HD collection game still looks nice. The abrupt RE style camera angle shifts are a bummer especially during combat but the rest is still solid (except the underground swimming missions were are legit garbage but DMC2 has them too so DMC2 manages to out crap DMC1 even in that area).
If we're excluding DmC then yeah I'd probably give DMC the best enemy designs in the series too. It doesn't really have a competition though when one of the games has chess pieces as enemies and the other one has tanks and helicopters. The only game in the series that could stand up to it DMC 4, but I'd take the marionettes and reapers over the stitched dolls. :I
In terms of the level structure though, I consider each sequel being an improvement here. DMC's (and DMC 3) back tracking is worst than what you do with do with Dante in DMC 4. I'd rather just complete a stage a second time in a linear path than keep on returning to a single place after finding an item to place on the pedestal, hitting a switch, getting a new weapon, etc. Oh and terms of level design I'd give it DMC 4, give me the variety of the forest, ice castle, burnt down village, and the city over just staying in the castle (and courtyard). The camera angle just makes me dislike DMC the most out of the entire series. The repeated boss fights with one of them nightmare which was just a mess, final boss fight, and the cringey cutscene doesn't help it anyway.
Well time to wait for DMC 5 like the rest of you, wouldn't mind if it's DmC 2 though. It'd be cool if both games were in development, but the DmC series is probably dead though which kinda sucks as DmCE wasn't a bad game. Don't care who the lead for DMC 5 is though, I'd welcome the game with open arms even if Nero is the lead again. He was pretty fun to use.
In terms of the level structure though, I consider each sequel being an improvement here. DMC's (and DMC 3) back tracking is worst than what you do with do with Dante in DMC 4. I'd rather just complete a stage a second time in a linear path than keep on returning to a single place after finding an item to place on the pedestal, hitting a switch, getting a new weapon, etc. Oh and terms of level design I'd give it DMC 4, give me the variety of the forest, ice castle, burnt down village, and the city over just staying in the castle (and courtyard). The camera angle just makes me dislike DMC the most out of the entire series. The repeated boss fights with one of them nightmare which was just a mess, final boss fight, and the cringey cutscene doesn't help it anyway.
Well time to wait for DMC 5 like the rest of you, wouldn't mind if it's DmC 2 though. It'd be cool if both games were in development, but the DmC series is probably dead though which kinda sucks as DmC
E wasn't a bad game. Don't care who the lead for DMC 5 is though, I'd welcome the game with open arms even if Nero is the lead again. He was pretty fun to use.DmC has better enemies than DMC1? What? Basic enemies in DmC have like, one attack each. Maybe two.
Marionettes have:
- Short range two-hit swipe
- Mid range spin move
- Long range weapon toss/gun shot
- War cry that stuns Dante
- Grab that turns into fatality at red health
Which covers the basics. There's also three variants (knife, guillotine, gun), although only the gun variant massively differs from the first two. Not even including the Bloody Mary. AI-wise, Marionettes and DmC's Stygians are about the same, as they mindlessly approach the player, and will try to block repetitive attacks and usually try to attack after blocking.
And that's only the most basic enemy. Nothing in any DMC comes close. Heck, most games in the genre don't come close. Only Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 have comparably well-developed basic enemies.
Marionettes have:
- Short range two-hit swipe
- Mid range spin move
- Long range weapon toss/gun shot
- War cry that stuns Dante
- Grab that turns into fatality at red health
Which covers the basics. There's also three variants (knife, guillotine, gun), although only the gun variant massively differs from the first two. Not even including the Bloody Mary. AI-wise, Marionettes and DmC's Stygians are about the same, as they mindlessly approach the player, and will try to block repetitive attacks and usually try to attack after blocking.
And that's only the most basic enemy. Nothing in any DMC comes close. Heck, most games in the genre don't come close. Only Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 have comparably well-developed basic enemies.
J_Macgrady
Member
Not only that, but you can stay in the air forever in that game without enemy step lol
Enemies and bosses in DMC5 better have some kind of long range moves they'll try to use when the player is in the air. Bosses like Berial not being able to attack the player while they're high in the air is such a joke. Hopefully it's just a case of the team not planning for the crazy air time the more advanced players would be able to achieve. Programming it so enemies are prone to use certain attacks while the player is juggling other enemes or staying in mid-air in for a long time should be possible AFAIK.
This should have happened a long time ago tbh.
I can't find any source but I remember once in an interview it was probably Itsuno who said that they don't make enemies too aggressive because it might ruin the combo flow of the game. That makes sense but the enemies are far too much of a punching bag and there usually ends up being a steep difficulty spike from enemies to a boss.
You know how Chimeras are one of the most hated enemy designs in DMC? They are one of the few enemies which can do something about getting comboed and players just find that annoying. I can imagine that if they start adding long ranged attacks to even basic enemies it's going to get annoying try to stay any combo and then getting sniped.
But they should do it anyway.
One major way to avoid the annoyance factor of long range attacks or enemy bursts is to give them proper startup, tells, and sound cues. The reason why everyone hates the Chimera when they first play the game is because it's so difficult to tell when they're going to break your combo.
having enemies that attack you at range when you're airborne with another enemy sucks shit really badly in dmc4 specifically because of the enemy types that do it so i'm apprehensive on just blindly adding that
have y'all tried fighting GMD frosts before? it suuuuuuuuuuucks when they're just spewing shit at you nonstop and you have to fuck with the camera just so you can actually do combos against them since leaving another one on screen will lead to you having to dodge immediately.
the absolute most ridiculous epitome of this is the first fight in m4 on LDK, where if you even remotely try to combo any of the frosts there in an air juggle you get perforated by a billion icicles. GMD LDK is even more hilarious because they don't stop shooting at all due to the increased aggression. shit looks like d-day if you don't immediately close in on them and start going ham with invincible attacks
i'd say dmc3 is in a good place for this balance, as many enemies do have ranged attacks but they're very easily readable and not common enough to be an annoyance in terms of killing your combo pacing. the only enemies that are really annoying are the red spear shooters and in most encounters the way they're used is to specifically have the player target them first and foremost as to eliminate them. so they're specifically built to be a threat in that manner which works for the fights they're in.
if you just gave every enemy something like the red spear guys or a ranged attack it ends up ruining the flow of combat pretty easily. having a ranged attack is one of the distinguishing properties between enemy types and should be something that is actively considered in an enemy's moveset to add rather than "well let's add it because things are too easy".
also gonna have to second guardianE about chimeras- it's not that they break out of combos, but rather that they have no real good/easy tell for it. a tell does exist but it's not enough. i personally dislike frosts and angelos flipping out too since i play trish who doesn't have an answer for that but the good part about those is that you have time to react accordingly with dante/nero (whom the game is designed around) and adjust when they do alongside having them still be fully comboable once having achieved a certain state (for angelos) or burning a resource (DT for frosts/angelos).
edit:
re: homogenizing char options by giving nero sky star or whatnot dealing with bursts should be thought of in terms of allowing characters to represent their unique options for the situation. stuff like just doublejumping/JCing away and then doing snatch to catch the enemy's burst or doing buster/DT in reaction to the enemy's burst are other basic methods of doing so. if the burst left the enemy airborne/floating into a recovery in the same way as a guilty gear burst then you could do split/doubledown on reaction and then launch them again or whatever. that kind of freedom of approach is important to consider- imagine the differences that vergil/dante/lady/trish's tools would allow for that on similar assumptions of mechanics.
the only character i really think that should be getting those kinda 'same-ish' options is trish, specifically because of her lack of tools atm and her gameplay design goal effectively being built as a "simpler" dante. ill do a short writeup tomorrow on my position on a clever/good approach to the character in the same vein for a dmc4se+ or dmc5 or whatever assuming similar enough basic system similarities to dmc4.
edit2:
forgot to post this but made a quickie nero combo with 1 neat thing in it (the starter) upon seeing sskeybai's footage.
the way you do reverse + ex-act is kinda neat and an interesting look at the game's input priority for buffering
https://twitter.com/tab_dmc/status/819030243419783168
have y'all tried fighting GMD frosts before? it suuuuuuuuuuucks when they're just spewing shit at you nonstop and you have to fuck with the camera just so you can actually do combos against them since leaving another one on screen will lead to you having to dodge immediately.
the absolute most ridiculous epitome of this is the first fight in m4 on LDK, where if you even remotely try to combo any of the frosts there in an air juggle you get perforated by a billion icicles. GMD LDK is even more hilarious because they don't stop shooting at all due to the increased aggression. shit looks like d-day if you don't immediately close in on them and start going ham with invincible attacks
i'd say dmc3 is in a good place for this balance, as many enemies do have ranged attacks but they're very easily readable and not common enough to be an annoyance in terms of killing your combo pacing. the only enemies that are really annoying are the red spear shooters and in most encounters the way they're used is to specifically have the player target them first and foremost as to eliminate them. so they're specifically built to be a threat in that manner which works for the fights they're in.
if you just gave every enemy something like the red spear guys or a ranged attack it ends up ruining the flow of combat pretty easily. having a ranged attack is one of the distinguishing properties between enemy types and should be something that is actively considered in an enemy's moveset to add rather than "well let's add it because things are too easy".
also gonna have to second guardianE about chimeras- it's not that they break out of combos, but rather that they have no real good/easy tell for it. a tell does exist but it's not enough. i personally dislike frosts and angelos flipping out too since i play trish who doesn't have an answer for that but the good part about those is that you have time to react accordingly with dante/nero (whom the game is designed around) and adjust when they do alongside having them still be fully comboable once having achieved a certain state (for angelos) or burning a resource (DT for frosts/angelos).
edit:
re: homogenizing char options by giving nero sky star or whatnot dealing with bursts should be thought of in terms of allowing characters to represent their unique options for the situation. stuff like just doublejumping/JCing away and then doing snatch to catch the enemy's burst or doing buster/DT in reaction to the enemy's burst are other basic methods of doing so. if the burst left the enemy airborne/floating into a recovery in the same way as a guilty gear burst then you could do split/doubledown on reaction and then launch them again or whatever. that kind of freedom of approach is important to consider- imagine the differences that vergil/dante/lady/trish's tools would allow for that on similar assumptions of mechanics.
the only character i really think that should be getting those kinda 'same-ish' options is trish, specifically because of her lack of tools atm and her gameplay design goal effectively being built as a "simpler" dante. ill do a short writeup tomorrow on my position on a clever/good approach to the character in the same vein for a dmc4se+ or dmc5 or whatever assuming similar enough basic system similarities to dmc4.
edit2:
forgot to post this but made a quickie nero combo with 1 neat thing in it (the starter) upon seeing sskeybai's footage.
the way you do reverse + ex-act is kinda neat and an interesting look at the game's input priority for buffering
https://twitter.com/tab_dmc/status/819030243419783168
badcrumble
Member
tbh I'd really, really love to see Bayo 1&2 turned into a single campaign with Bayo 1's overall balance/gameplay loop in terms of normal damage output and in terms of normal Wicked Weave damage output - Bayo 2's Umbran Climax was wildly overpowered and the game nerfed regular combat in order to achieve that so the entire gameplay loop became all about grinding up magic (and you didn't lose it for getting hit anymore) and then unleashing umbran climax to basically turn on Press A for Awesome mode.
Bayo 2's new *weapons* were all fucking wonderful, though, and the enemy designs were generally stellar outside of the ill-reasoned autoparry stuff. Bringing together the best of both games in one immense package would be great (since Bayo 2 *did* improve on a bunch of Bayo 1 things immensely, like making the Alfheim stuff much more straightforward to find). But Bayo 2 also had a much, much smaller arsenal than the first game did and disappointingly little in the way of cool postgame weapon/accessory unlocks. I want Lt. Kilgore *and* Alruna equipped at the same time, dammit.
Also, being able to work my way all the way up to like six full HP bars and magic bars by completing all of the extra content from both campaigns would delight my completionist heart, lol.
Something I think is actually a surprisingly good example of how to handle this problem is the Sephiroth fight in Kingdom Hearts 2. If you're comboing him, he can teleport out of your combo (he can only do this after already having taken a certain number of hits) and counterattack, but when he does this you've got a split second to counterattack his counterattack and bash him in the face and keep your combo going. It's great that it doesn't always happen after the same amount of hits/same amount of damage because you actually need to stay on edge and ready to defend yourself instead of memorizing when it's going to happen, but it's perfectly fair in terms of giving you time to react.
DMC3 has terrible balance when it comes to enemies lol. Most of them just stand there watching you combo. Not to mention that so many enemies in DMC3 are so difficult to properly juggle rendering a ton of the options useless when using particular styles. Nah man, let's not talk about DMC3 enemies again... even DMC4 was an upgrade over that.
Why the hell is GMD being brought into the equation? Frosts don't attack that frequently when you are comboing something else in the air in DMD which is the default hardest difficulty of the game. GMD isn't really balanced or tested, it's just fans making the games as impossibly hard as possible and usually it's just cranking up numbers. Hell I don't even think we should be talking about balance in LDK mode either because that's not a default difficulty mode of the game.
No one here is asking for the game to turn into Ninja Gaiden 2 with off screen projectiles 1-2 shotting you for doing regular combat stuff. That's not fun or challenging. But having enemies twiddle their thumbs while looking at their fellows getting styled on isn't exactly compelling game design either. There's a happy medium between the two that should be aimed for.
Also we don't mean that every enemy should have ranged attacks. Something like a telegraphed jump attack is fine. Enemies try to jump up and swipe at you while you are in the air. This is not just for when you are comboing but when you are in the air shooting guns at them/devil bringing them or just doing the usual DMC air swag. The lower enemies should be very bad at it of course but higher enemies should be more competent at it.
Bursts mechanics in action games are garbage. Or at least the ones that have been implemented thus far have been bad. I can sort of accept enemies being able to spin out of combos but there needs more consistency across the board with that kind of thing. It's not exactly intuitive or easy to figure out similar to how the DT system worked in DMC3.
Most of this is just food for thought. But I for one am eager to see how the game series evolves past the early PS3 era of game design if it's even able to do so. If that evolution is on the table then we probably have to analyze every part of the series and be like "is this actually good? can it be made better?" If the directors behind these games were just content with producing the previous game but with better visuals/different weapons/levels then we would never have had DMC3.
Why the hell is GMD being brought into the equation? Frosts don't attack that frequently when you are comboing something else in the air in DMD which is the default hardest difficulty of the game. GMD isn't really balanced or tested, it's just fans making the games as impossibly hard as possible and usually it's just cranking up numbers. Hell I don't even think we should be talking about balance in LDK mode either because that's not a default difficulty mode of the game.
No one here is asking for the game to turn into Ninja Gaiden 2 with off screen projectiles 1-2 shotting you for doing regular combat stuff. That's not fun or challenging. But having enemies twiddle their thumbs while looking at their fellows getting styled on isn't exactly compelling game design either. There's a happy medium between the two that should be aimed for.
Also we don't mean that every enemy should have ranged attacks. Something like a telegraphed jump attack is fine. Enemies try to jump up and swipe at you while you are in the air. This is not just for when you are comboing but when you are in the air shooting guns at them/devil bringing them or just doing the usual DMC air swag. The lower enemies should be very bad at it of course but higher enemies should be more competent at it.
Bursts mechanics in action games are garbage. Or at least the ones that have been implemented thus far have been bad. I can sort of accept enemies being able to spin out of combos but there needs more consistency across the board with that kind of thing. It's not exactly intuitive or easy to figure out similar to how the DT system worked in DMC3.
Most of this is just food for thought. But I for one am eager to see how the game series evolves past the early PS3 era of game design if it's even able to do so. If that evolution is on the table then we probably have to analyze every part of the series and be like "is this actually good? can it be made better?" If the directors behind these games were just content with producing the previous game but with better visuals/different weapons/levels then we would never have had DMC3.
That dude who did the Marvel Infinite leaks a few day ago is saying Marvel Infinite would have the DMC1 Dante design with DMC3/DMC4 costumes. Also DMC5 Dante as default costume might also be on the table depending upon which gets release first which is just bizarre to me.
And of course the guy had "confirmed" DMC5 alongside Powerstone. If PowerStone gets revealed before DMC5......
As always take with a massive grain of salt.
And of course the guy had "confirmed" DMC5 alongside Powerstone. If PowerStone gets revealed before DMC5......
As always take with a massive grain of salt.
i bring up dmc3 enemies as a point of balance specifically in regards to how their ranged attacks are designed. not general balance.
so, yknow, the spear shooters, the spitter mooks and abysses. they all have distinct and different ranged attacks that all have good tells. the only one of the that breaks the flow of combat is the spear shooter type and like i said earlier, that is their purpose.
the reason i bring up gmd is because it's an easy and actually existing example of what happens when you crank enemy aggression alongside on dudes that have ranged/interrupting attacks rather than a hypothetical. aggression is super low in 4 and when turned up like suggested that is the actual result of what happens when you mix that with the enemies that have ranged attacks. LDK is brought up for the same reason of providing an actual existing result of what happens when you have a volume of enemies that have ranged attacks with dmc4's super low aggression levels. both lead to shitty experiences that i actually have dealt with which is what leaves me apprehensive about that kinda shit.
having enemies jump and swing at you already exists all over dmc4, it's just a matter of enemy aggression levels being so low that it rarely comes into play, with ranged attacks being the only commmonly used method of that.
the same is actually true for 3 as well. the thing there is primarily that the mooks that do jump and swing at you are really inaccurate. they don't even have the luxury of having a specific tell for many of em so you rarely see them as they tend to just swing and miss while barely onscreen.
pushing boundaries of design is fine but once again it is important to take note of what has been done before when doing so.
so, yknow, the spear shooters, the spitter mooks and abysses. they all have distinct and different ranged attacks that all have good tells. the only one of the that breaks the flow of combat is the spear shooter type and like i said earlier, that is their purpose.
the reason i bring up gmd is because it's an easy and actually existing example of what happens when you crank enemy aggression alongside on dudes that have ranged/interrupting attacks rather than a hypothetical. aggression is super low in 4 and when turned up like suggested that is the actual result of what happens when you mix that with the enemies that have ranged attacks. LDK is brought up for the same reason of providing an actual existing result of what happens when you have a volume of enemies that have ranged attacks with dmc4's super low aggression levels. both lead to shitty experiences that i actually have dealt with which is what leaves me apprehensive about that kinda shit.
having enemies jump and swing at you already exists all over dmc4, it's just a matter of enemy aggression levels being so low that it rarely comes into play, with ranged attacks being the only commmonly used method of that.
the same is actually true for 3 as well. the thing there is primarily that the mooks that do jump and swing at you are really inaccurate. they don't even have the luxury of having a specific tell for many of em so you rarely see them as they tend to just swing and miss while barely onscreen.
pushing boundaries of design is fine but once again it is important to take note of what has been done before when doing so.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Haven't read all of the new posts yet but
Are you talking about that reddit dude, Dah? I thought that leak was immediately recognized as fake. He said too many crazy stuff. (like Powerstone)
Are you talking about that reddit dude, Dah? I thought that leak was immediately recognized as fake. He said too many crazy stuff. (like Powerstone)
Son Of Sparda
Member
Yeah, I'm not sure that I trust the dude even a little bit.
I would be content just with having the goddamn game be actually playable on something other than the Wii U, dammit. I don't like Nintendo first-party exclusives, I don't like their consoles, I don't like anything they put out and I don't want to buy a new console for ONE game, however beautiful, well-made, fun and challenging to play that game may be.
J_Macgrady
Member
I would buy the Switch for Bayonetta again. I bought a WiiU for Bayonetta 1+2 and don't regret it at all. I was only able to afford a WiiU or a PS4 at the time and PS4 had no action games. Then again I like that series almost as much as DMC.
I know everyone in here would shell out money for the switch if DMC5 was exclusive on it. One game can do that much when it comes to deciding whether or not to get a console.
Yeah. I feel like Bayonetta 1 has the better combat flow, but Bayonetta 2 had more human sized bosses and more unique weapons. Kamiya said he wanted to make 3 and now with Scalebound not happening anymore that could be the project he pushes for.
badcrumble
Member
I mean, Nintendo funded Bayonetta 2's development, I'm okay with them reaping whatever benefits are there.
But also, Bayonetta 1/2 each do certain things *much* better than the other from a systems and design POV, so it'd be really great to have a unified version of both games together that'd let us have the best of both worlds all in one amazing package.
okay, here's my stupid writeup that i may or may not have written here. this would be assuming 4 mechanics so use that in reference:
for trish, the team has stated that their design goal is to create an accessible, simple and powerful version of dante's basic moveset. you can see bits of design in here where each of her primary buttons contains simplified versions of movesets meant to "streamline" dante's basic moveset.
so in 4se she's got air rave and "swordmaster" moves on her style button, a large amount of moves on her basic melee button and "gunslinger" options (in the form of different gun attacks) on her gun button.
my idea would be to extend this concept further and expand her moveset as to use her as a "streamlined, more powerful version of basic (e&i+rebellion) dante with unique options"- something that could be used to teach the basic ideas of advanced play while having a simpler control scheme that allows folks to access tools that would otherwise bother folks due to the technical ability required to access "basic" functions in the style and weapon systems (style/weapon switching).
as of now, trish currently has two unused trigger buttons. the first additional function is pretty obvious: a trickster button on one of the triggers. it'd just function like the style button for trickster. with the addition of something that triggered like table hopper on her version of dash (just frame dash) alongside one that triggered exactly like table hopper on her roll (added risk v reward mechanic here) you could also use this as double for the exact timing reward/lower risk aspect of royal guard.
in addition, i was thinking maybe of adding a gimmick with a float similar to DMC3 rebellion DT's float. however, that would be inconvenient in terms of fine controls for the trickster button so that goes into the next part:
one of trish's issues in 4se is that she has a "lack" of moves due to her super long strings hiding all of the moves she has now and her button scheme + lack of style switching not allowing for access to more.
to solve this, i'd also give her more moves that are accessible outside of strings. the question is in the method of 'how' - this is where the other free trigger comes into play. i think the other trigger could be used as a modifier that changes up her moveset. a "trish" style button in the same vein as the dmcdmc angel/devil buttons that allows her access to unique moves outside of her basic weapon strings on the melee and sparda buttons. so, in this case you'd hold the "trish style" trigger and hit x and she'd go into the float.
the float would be there for both something unique that also allows for simple repositioning for allowing access for jump canceling really easily for folks who are new to the mechanic. it'd also work as a simple method of having inertia tricks as it'd have it carry inertia rather than kill it entirely. as an additional function, anything performed during the float would carry inertia.
the "style" moves would be free for their design and may or may not be repurposed dante moves, whatever. that's too far into the realm of unknowns and can be anything but the primary purpose there is to allow for achieving the goal of "streamlined" controls/mechanics that still work in a similar enough vein to dante's.
for her guns, i'd keep the same forward/back gun+hold method of "gunslinger" type attacks but have something more unique than what the pandora missiles provide. my initial idea is something along the lines of the dmc3 artemis multi-lock attack on one of them and a ricocheting shot ala spiral (across multiple enemies, to work w/ lightning gimmick) on the other. the trish style modifier on these would be MVC3 style traps, with the basic style+gun attack being strong lightning blasts from her hands similar to a shotgun or something like that- it allows for the movement to happen while still giving a new type of attack/move in terms of function.
with that kinda detail though i end up veering into the unknowns factor so i guess the more specific stupid crap goes here in terms of dreaming shit up:
i'd change up her basic melee/sparda button moveset to give her stinger at the very least, with high time potentially being removed over high voltage already existing. round trip would be the same as dante/vergil's, with a button hold enabling it. stinger is just such a basic thing that allows for continuous battle flow and without a move like it stuff just ends up kinda stutter-y.
while i really dislike the really long strings that hide moves that otherwise would have a lot of fun function i'm not sure where i stand on reconciling that or how to deal with that. i'm alright with having a fuckton of strings but it's very specifically the functionality of stuff like real impact or dance macabre being stuck so far in that gets a bit muddled- the style modifier could help with that, but the presence of that kind of string with moves locked in long strings kinda goes against the basic concept of that dmc style option design.
also, get rid of inazuma because it is really super boring in almost every capacity. just give her the same fast divekick that can be float canceled.
also also maybe add air raid? idk the use but why the hell not i guess. it can just be the same input as air raid in every other game. DT only, doubletap jump during lockon.
while i really wanna fuck w/ the dpad that happens to go against the design goal of creating a 'streamlined, stronger "basic" dante that introduces basic advanced play concepts naturally".
to specify, when i say advanced play concepts, i mean not only jcing but making stuff like weapon switching more "streamlined"(via melee button, sparda button, style button and guns), inertia being made obvious/accessible via the float and how you can play with enemy positioning/character positioning via lots of flexibility for movement (trickster moves, float, air raid) alongside v-divider and other moves like the suggested traps/artemis style gun moves manipulating the enemy positioning instead of having something as blunt as inazuma's "here's a big giant lightning trail that holds enemies forever". i guess the same bluntness applies for round trip there too but that's a bit of a legacy move that i feel needs to be in anyways. maybe have two different types of round trip, with dante/dmc3 vergil style being default and DT'd round trip being like 4se's giant death blender?
eh. this is just the dream since i also want dante to have full on fucking crazy insane breadth and depth that makes dmc3+ss's number of options look 'average' but that's just about as unlikely as any of this coming true, haha.
oh, also. give trish some damn bangs and also the complete amulet necklace. YEAH
Would using DT as the modifier that significantly changes up several of her core moves to allow for integral tools to be available without being located within an extended combo string mesh with the ethos of simplified design; instead of a separate stance toggle? Or would restricting availability further by tying them to a depleting resource only make things worse?
Depending on how it's executed, it could distinguish the function of her DT from its fairly bare current functionality, while tangibly expanding her moveset without adding any new mechanics or button assignments.
Also, while I'd appreciate the DMC1 hairstyle coming back as part of an alt costume, I'm kind of hoping they'll do something new with her main look next time. Maybe a messy high ponytail or something? The prominent bangs could still be integrated pretty easily.
Depending on how it's executed, it could distinguish the function of her DT from its fairly bare current functionality, while tangibly expanding her moveset without adding any new mechanics or button assignments.
Also, while I'd appreciate the DMC1 hairstyle coming back as part of an alt costume, I'm kind of hoping they'll do something new with her main look next time. Maybe a messy high ponytail or something? The prominent bangs could still be integrated pretty easily.
badcrumble
Member
I think each character really ought to have substantially different DT mechanics (as well as different character-specific mechanics like Nero's rev gauge and Vergil's Concentration - even though Concentration as-is is sort of comically unbalanced).
For Trish, I really wish her electricity trap mechanic currently available on her Killer Bee equivalent diagonal kick move (can't remember the name off the top of my head) were instead DT-only but added to *all* of her moves. You could do a lot of fun shit with that and it'd be cool to fill the whole room with arcing electricity.
For Trish, I really wish her electricity trap mechanic currently available on her Killer Bee equivalent diagonal kick move (can't remember the name off the top of my head) were instead DT-only but added to *all* of her moves. You could do a lot of fun shit with that and it'd be cool to fill the whole room with arcing electricity.
adding dt specific properties/a dt only moveset with the same design would ultimately lead to the same issue of reducing moveset availability at all times rather than a simplifief expansion of scope because of the control scheme still ultimately allowing 2 buttons at most for moves and the removal of regular attacks in exchange for those specific attacks in this case it also leads to the constant dt on/dt off thing the inherent design of dt is meant to avoid via the dt meter cost balance.
the style modifier button works here specifically because there is no weapon switching and because the triggers are easily accessible and understandable in use.
if you don't add trickster at the very least then the character loses one of the most interesting and simple tools in dante's moveset (sky star). id actually be ok with not having trick and instead having lockon forward be a tracking skystar. that could be a distinguishing factor too, w double skystar and triple jump available normally without DTing.
in regards to her DT, i really have no idea what to do with it. if she had air raid w unique air raid state only moves like dmc2 and dantes stuff maybe thatd be something. the big thing is i wouldn't want it totally different from dante's as to keep that design structure.
maybe have the style modifier moves boosted by DT in specific ways? idk, that ultimately leads to the similar issue of going in and out of dt constantly. but i'd like something unique to her regardless. just not sure what that would still leave finesse in the equation.