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Why are unions frowned upon?

SKINNER!

Banned
Fuck Thatcher now and forever, she was a monster worse than Reagan.

Passed anti-gay legislation, used riot police against peaceful protests, introduced regressive taxes targeted against the poorest, sowed the seeds to try and privatise the NHS, presided over the Hunger Strikes, managed to get inflation to 15%, voted to block the legality of divorces, cut funding to kids school meals and libraries, and destroyed social housing.

We had a party when she died.

Yup. Vile human being. Always get nauseous whenever I hear praise thrown at her and Reagan.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Globalization isn't a bad thing. And it's not going to go away anytime soon. Knock off this xenophobic bullshit.

It is not an issue at all on a macro scale, great for GDP, but tell that to the various towns and cities that have ceased to exist due to jobs moving overseas. On a micro scale it has been incredibly desruptive and destructive.
 
Some unions are good and some are bad. I was part of a union when I worked for the Canadian government and all I saw was that it protected lazy ass workers and got them raises for simply not being bad enough to be fired - not that they could be fired without going through what seemed like years worth of processes anyways.

Anecdotes about "bad" unions so often sound like this - when in fact, the union is simply doing its job, representing the rights of workers and ensuring the proper procedures and rules are met... I've worked in the Canadian government for decades in various roles and departments, and it's bad MANAGEMENT that results in "lazy ass workers" - there are performance requirements for all roles in the government, and if you persist in not meeting those requirements you can easily be fired. It's not the union's fault if managers do not document the issue or consult constructively with the employee in an attempt to correct it. It doesn't take years; just the proper documentation and a demonstrable lack of will or ability to do the job. But the managers are often "too busy" themselves to do these things correctly, and so the deadwood abides... sometimes for years and years...

Personally, I think it's a small price to pay for union representation, which generally affords us a decent wage, fair benefits and protection from malicious superiors...
 

Big Blue

Member
Anecdotes about "bad" unions so often sound like this - when in fact, the union is simply doing its job, representing the rights of workers and ensuring the proper procedures and rules are met... I've worked in the Canadian government for decades in various roles and departments, and it's bad MANAGEMENT that results in "lazy ass workers" - there are performance requirements for all roles in the government, and if you persist in not meeting those requirements you can easily be fired. It's not the union's fault if managers do not document the issue or consult constructively with the employee in an attempt to correct it. It doesn't take years; just the proper documentation and a demonstrable lack of will or ability to do the job. But the managers are often "too busy" themselves to do these things correctly, and so the deadwood abides... sometimes for years and years...

Personally, I think it's a small price to pay for union representation, which generally affords us a decent wage, fair benefits and protection from malicious superiors...

True but you have to remember that many public unions work in monopolistic industries. (Utilities, police, and especially public transit.) So they have much more power than regular unions. If the MTA workers ever striked, the city of New York would come to a screeching halt. THOSE are the unions that I'm not very fond of. They hold citizens and politicians hostage and in the end the taxpayers get fucked over.
 
Here in Canada, it's well known that the unionised public servants are slackers.
In many departments, all the actual work is done by contractors and the unionised workers spend their days complaining about one another about stupid stuff like who pays more for parking or have someone kicked out of an office because it's not fair to his fellow employees who work in cubicles. So they spend money demolishing the office, for no reason. Several friends ended up there after the last bankruptcy and most couldn't take it and took pay cuts to go do real work somewhere else. They basically do nothing all day since they have no internet access.
 
They're not.

They're frowned upon by people who think you should work until you die for a pittance
I’ve worked in several that were terrible and did nothing but promote inefficiency and laziness. Thy also protected the current members with no motivation and blocked young potential members from joining. So there are plenty of legitimate criticisms.
 

prag16

Banned
Lots of driveby nonsense in this topic. Unions have their good points, but there's also a TON of downsides that are getting a lot less mention.

Look at the behavior of certain unions like police unions. Public sector unions are become a HUGE problem in many states that are nearing bankruptcy. It isn't going to be possible to cover all pension commitments in many of these states. Not even close. There are numerous instances of unions protecting older workers who have checked out at the expense of younger motivated workers that do all the work, but are much lower on the pay scale. And as others have said, they often encourage inefficient allocation of resources among other things.

Anecdotal, but my wife's teachers' unions has done absolutely jack squat for her other than take a couple hundred per month from her paychecks. She's been having major issues with her allergies/asthma/eczema flaring up while at work for years (and ONLY at work; goes away over the summer and even over long weekends) and they've been as useful as tits on a bull.

Unions have accomplished worthwhile things in the past, but nothing that can't be covered in modern times by some common sense legislation. It's highly questionable if these large mega-unions make any sense nowadays.
 

morch

Member
Lots of driveby nonsense in this topic. Unions have their good points, but there's also a TON of downsides that are getting a lot less mention.

Look at the behavior of certain unions like police unions. Public sector unions are become a HUGE problem in many states that are nearing bankruptcy. It isn't going to be possible to cover all pension commitments in many of these states. Not even close. There are numerous instances of unions protecting older workers who have checked out at the expense of younger motivated workers that do all the work, but are much lower on the pay scale. And as others have said, they often encourage inefficient allocation of resources among other things.

Anecdotal, but my wife's teachers' unions has done absolutely jack squat for her other than take a couple hundred per month from her paychecks. She's been having major issues with her allergies/asthma/eczema flaring up while at work for years (and ONLY at work; goes away over the summer and even over long weekends) and they've been as useful as tits on a bull.

Unions have accomplished worthwhile things in the past, but nothing that can't be covered in modern times by some common sense legislation. It's highly questionable if these large mega-unions make any sense nowadays.

There are downsides, especially with unions that don't represent their works well when times are difficult, or the employer just breaks the law ie single status pay schemes in the UK

The negatives are workplaces that are closed shop ie can't join the job without joining the union, which are generally unfair and remove choice as to whether you want their representation, or a different union, as here at least (uk) there is sometimes more than one union that you may wish to represent you

at the same time: unions actually save some organisation money, in that there are less frivolous legal claims, because they don't want to use legal resources to fight bad claims, whilst providing reasonably fair legal advice.
 
My contribution to this topic has nothing to do with working for a union, but rather working with a union... More specifically, the IT field. Our company has dealt with a few different a/v companies in the Philly / Atlantic City area (Pretty sure most venues we worked at required union people to handle a/v) and I was amazed at how bad most of the people were... Like the only reason they had jobs in the field was because the union was there to protect them.

I mean it's great for the workers I guess, but bad for anyone looking to work with the companies. If not for the union, a lot of these people I encountered wouldn't have jobs in this field, no question.
 

prophetvx

Member
Your boss won't give you a raise if they think they can get away with not doing it. They give you a rise to stop you from leaving.

Your employer is not your friend, you are a disposable asset to them.

As someone who routinely gives people raises and is a part of that decision process. I can assure you that is bullshit. Not every company is out there to screw you, just like not every union is operating in your best interests.

Perhaps you should look at why you are viewed as an easily disposable asset, rather than assuming everyone is. It costs far more to hire someone new than retain someone.
 

Ouroboros

Member
when my brother finally got a teaching job, the teacher union wanted to go on strike and tried to strong arm my brother into signing something he didn't want to sign since it took him 5 years to land a full time teaching position. Why would he want to go on strike when he finally got a job? Some unions are just out for themselves.
 

jaxpunk

Member
The one union I worked in was full of the laziest shit bags I had ever had the displeasure of working with. Literally would go, what are they gonna do...fire me I'm in the union. That was the majority of the attitude there. If you tried to work hard(er) than some others, you got a talking to.

While some unions might be worthwhile, I've yet to experience it personally.
 
There are pros and cons, a lot of good unions once fought for are now law anyway. These days it is mostly just about money and it basically comes down to union fee vs pay gained by union. Often once fee and strike time is factored you're barely better off if at all.
 

otakukidd

Member
My problems with unions are a more personal. I know unions can do great things but man some of the stuff they do can really fuck people over. For example changing retirement requirements for people that have been in the union for decades. My dad should of been able to retire next year but because they changed that rules 5 years ago and 18 after he started. He's fucked and has to work 11 more years. A more recent change was they were going to change to a new retirement plan. That's fine, these things happen. But what doesn't usually happen is they put a freeze on the old retirement so it doesn't make any more money at all. No interest, nothing. It will just sit there in the time it's supposed to be making it's most amount of money, it will be doing nothing. They aren't even going to be transferring the money to the new retirement plan where they have to start over at 0. Of which is shittier than the one before cause he would have to wait till he's 75 before getting the same amount of money a month as the old plan at time of retirement. Sorry to vent this shit has been pissing me off the last 2 weeks.
 

kendrid

Banned
The one union I worked in was full of the laziest shit bags I had ever had the displeasure of working with. Literally would go, what are they gonna do...fire me I'm in the union. That was the majority of the attitude there. If you tried to work hard(er) than some others, you got a talking to.

While some unions might be worthwhile, I've yet to experience it personally.

This is what I experienced also. I was young and very naive and I was laughed at for trying to work hard. Once raises were issued and we all received the same raise I understood why I was a fool. They basically did as little as possible yet got the job done. Trying hard didn't matter, the bosses didn't care.
 

ameratsu

Member
My experience with a big public sector union in Canada has been mostly negative.

There are public sector employees who legitimately cannot do their jobs but at the same time do not lose them short of committing crimes while at work. Low quality permanent employees are moved around from dept to dept, team to team without any real effort towards discipline if not outright dismissal because building a case for that is difficult and time consuming. Meanwhile, people who are competent and care about their job are in the minority and have to deal with seemingly endless incompetence from people who know what the absolute floor is for staying employed and operate at that level more often than not.

They do afford important protections. You probably aren't going to lose your job if you're ill even for an extended period of time, you're (theoretically) less likely to lose your job because nepotism or vindictive superiors, and you have an outlet other than an HR dept, who serve to protect the company above all else when workplace conditions are problematic or outright toxic. It's just that everyone should get these, not just public sector employees who exist to game the system.
 
There are pros and cons, a lot of good unions once fought for are now law anyway.

It's cute that you think so.

In actuality, the unions here in the U.S. have been in decline for decades and subsequently, we've seen a severe stagnation of wages, decreased benefits, an almost Dickensian concentration of wealth at the upper tiers of management and the largest income inequality gap since before the Great Depression.

As imperfect as unions are, they are the bulwark against the unfettered greed of corporations that have ZERO compunctions using and tossing aside people as if they are nothing more substantial than used tissue.
 
As someone who routinely gives people raises and is a part of that decision process. I can assure you that is bullshit. Not every company is out there to screw you, just like not every union is operating in your best interests.

Perhaps you should look at why you are viewed as an easily disposable asset, rather than assuming everyone is. It costs far more to hire someone new than retain someone.

That depends entirely on what they do, how long they've done it, and how much they are getting paid to do it currently.

Unions protect workers and impede the ability of companies to get rid of senior employees in order to hire new workers at lower pay, which happens all the time in non-union companies.
 

Iorv3th

Member
Depends on where you work and how your union is run.

Some of the unions take a good enough portion from your check and your benefits are pretty minimal and not worth it.
 

prophetvx

Member
That depends entirely on what they do, how long they've done it, and how much they are getting paid to do it currently.
Plus the cost to interview, train new staff and cost of lost productivity which can be months of work. Which puts that cost in the tens or hundreds of thousands to get someone who is still potentially incompetent.

Unions protect workers and impede the ability of companies to get rid of senior employees in order to hire new workers at lower pay, which happens all the time in non-union companies.
I'm well aware of what unions do. The cost of that is also less than stellar but consistent wage growth, fees and a significant wage and benefits cap. Unions have value but they have some pretty huge drawbacks as well, it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Unions have zero value in my workplace and would absolutely be a net negative. Unions in many cases are no different to businesses, doing the bare minimum to justify their existence and take as much money from you as possible.
 

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
A lot of posts here kind of echo the right-wing propaganda that people are getting completely sucked in regarding trade unions.

Trade unions have a lot of problems - bureaucratic leaderships, limited political outlook, cases of corruption etc. But these problems absolutely don't compare to what corporations and businesses get away on a daily basis, and you know what the best thing for keeping those things in check? a trade union. I don't think protecting a lazy worker from losing their job absolutely compares to outright exploitation and wage theft.

I also don't consider the police union to be a real union considering one of the police's institutional roles is to protect the economic interests of bosses. They're no friends of workers and a police union shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as a teachers or nurses union.
 

phyrlord

Member
Me: Un-unionized.
My wife: In an Office union


My wife: I can't stand X person, they have taken 65 days off work this year, and they can't do anything about it. We constantly try to rely on him to do a job and he just shows up sick 4-10 times a month.

Me: Yeah, that guy would of been fired and replaced by someone better ages ago.

This about sums up the MANY MANY stories and eye rolling's I see about unions.
 
Me: Un-unionized.
My wife: In an Office union


My wife: I can't stand X person, they have taken 65 days off work this year, and they can't do anything about it. We constantly try to rely on him to do a job and he just shows up sick 4-10 times a month.

Me: Yeah, that guy would of been fired and replaced by someone better ages ago.

This about sums up the MANY MANY stories and eye rolling's I see about unions.

Sounds like the guy is seriously ill if he shows up sick 4-10 times in a month, and has to take so much time off.

I guess him being dead/without insurance is better?
 
A lot of posts here kind of echo the right-wing propaganda that people are getting completely sucked in regarding trade unions.

Trade unions have a lot of problems - bureaucratic leaderships, limited political outlook, cases of corruption etc. But these problems absolutely don't compare to what corporations and businesses get away on a daily basis, and you know what the best thing for keeping those things in check? a trade union. I don't think protecting a lazy worker from losing their job absolutely compares to outright exploitation and wage theft.

I also don't consider the police union to be a real union considering one of the police's institutional roles is to protect the economic interests of bosses. They're no friends of workers and a police union shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as a teachers or nurses union.

Nationally it is estimated that workers are not paid at least $19 billion every year in overtime and that in the US $40 billion to $60 billion in total are lost annually due to all forms of wage theft.

But yes, based on the responses in this thread you'd think lazy workers protected by unions are somehow even worse of a problem.
 

erragal

Member
Anyone in a union can be removed. Just follow the specifically contracted methodology of removal.

FYI virtually every union has ' commit a felony ' as a valid grounds for dismissal. Police officers don't get dismissed because the legal apparatus (and juries) can't convict cops of felonies.

Most people are at the whim of dismissal at any time. Living under that yoke certainly provides an easy perspective to feel envy and frustration. And, it is, a yoke, that is, to have your livelihood, the resources necessary for your survival, at the emotional whims of a human. An animal, an ape like we all are, to have your life in the hands of someone's secret loathing and biases, pack social hierarchy bullshit. Under that chain it must seem insane that people can have peaks and valleys throughout their life/career and not see their survival fortunes adversely impacted.

Unfortunately it often seems we must return to the obscene conditions present in the late 19th century before people will have enough of the arbitrary whims of others for their bread and butter.


Edit: Particular to gaming, it's quite fitting voice actors will now have a larger stake of most big budget games than the actual designers/developers thanks to their union.
 

darscot

Member
I can't speak to Canada but what you've written here as it applies to unions in the U.S. is straight up nonsense.

Well as I said up here in Canada we have universal health care, we have universal employment insurance, we have Canada pension. Workers compensation that covers safety and injury is provincial but we all have it and they do not fuck around. One phone call about legitimate safety concerns in the workplace and they will seriously crawl up your bosses ass. Workers comp does get exploited and it can be tough for hard to diagnose long term ailments. So it can be a fight if you suffer that type of injury. Plus hours, pay termination is all covered by law and there are support systems for all of it. Unions do tend to offer a little extra as far as benefits and pensions but non union shops are very competitive and you don't have to pay dues. Beyond job security at a price I don't see what unions offer.
 

O.v.e.rlord

Banned
Because they protect who should be fired fired.

Like a guy at work who was caught drinking on the job still works at my place of business. thanks union.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
This is what I experienced also. I was young and very naive and I was laughed at for trying to work hard. Once raises were issued and we all received the same raise I understood why I was a fool. They basically did as little as possible yet got the job done. Trying hard didn't matter, the bosses didn't care.

This is a feature, not a bug
 

jstripes

Banned
Nationally it is estimated that workers are not paid at least $19 billion every year in overtime and that in the US $40 billion to $60 billion in total are lost annually due to all forms of wage theft.

But yes, based on the responses in this thread you'd think lazy workers protected by unions are somehow even worse of a problem.

It is possible for something to have positive and negative aspects at the same time, you know.

Unions work hard protecting the rights of employees, but at the same time they harbour some of the most lazy and entitled dipshits on the planet.
 
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