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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath

tzare

Member
Sure, you should ask the Catalan police how they acted in 2011 when the parliament was surrounded.
And later with Ester Quintana. But at least that lead to changes like banning the weapons that injured her and also how mossos approach certain situations.
Just the opposite the Spanish government and many Spanish politicians have done with Policia's way of dealing with the conflict. Including 'a por ellos' and certain messages like this...

https://twitter.com/ufpol/status/917313105398587392

We feel very safe as citizens indeed.
 

RSB

Banned
You're absolutely right. The police's job is to brutalize civilians.
The only thing brutalized that night were the police cars:

coche-guardia-civil-barcelona210917.jpg

And apparently, during those "peaceful" protests, they not only vandalized those cars, but also stole evidence collected during the investigation that was taking place inside the building (Conselleria d'Economia)

Edit: Sorry, apparently the vandalized cars (the night the police and judge had to be escorted out of the building for their safety) and the stolen evidence were separate events which happened on different days (20th and 25th of September, respectively) My bad.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The only thing brutalized that night were the police cars:



And apparently, during those "peaceful" protests, they not only vandalized those cars, but also removed evidence collected during the investigation that was taking place inside the building (Conselleria d'Economia)
Those are different events. The removal of items from a car involved the Guardia Urbana (municipal police), not the Guardia Civil (Spanish gendarmerie, shown there). There was some talk about weapons being taken from one of the cars and later returned, but that sounds highly unsustained given the ausence of further news.

Edit: they took away backpacks with batons, rubber bullets and other riot equipment during that event. The Mossos (Catalonia's regional police) recovered them without arresting the perps. The Mossos' intervention is also highly problematic for a number of reasons.
 

RSB

Banned
Those are different events. The removal of items from a car involved the Guardia Urbana (municipal police), not the Guardia Civil (Spanish gendarmerie, shown there). There was some talk about weapons being taken from one of the cars and later returned, but that sounds highly unsustained given the audience of further news.
Ah, so it was two different events then? The vandalized cars and the stealing of evidence? Sorry, I thought it all happened the same night. My bad.
 
You want to cry right now because two persons who conspired to prevent court orders from being applied and carried on despite ample warnings, and then manifested that they'd keep going on after the fact, earned a remand. This was predicted days ago by legal experts.

I will never not be amused by the people warring against the judiciary to make a point and then acting indignant when the judiciary throws the book at them.

Worse than Turkey indeed.

Yet you know so well as I do that the people directing Spain made worse things. Even those that did direct Spain.

And I have yet to see those in prision -- in fact, they took the person that was at the head of the case out.

I'm sorry but I won't buy Spanish legality anymore, when said jurisdiction is clearly biased.

Justice for all, not just for some.
 
Isn't that precisely what you're asking for? Justice for some, exemptions to the law for others.

My man, of course not. *sigh*

As a saying goes here: "Either everyone fucks or the whore goes to the river".

It's been far too long already. It boils my blood. The money the PP has taken ilegally, Felipe González and his GAL, the way they injected the money all people in Spain had been paying to rescue banks for letting all that "construction boom" (don't know the English expression, sorry). And don't think I give my trust to Catalan authorities *cough*3%*cough*

But I'm tired of being told about "the law" when "the law" is only working for some purposes while for the rest -- oh! I didn't know anything, this was all handled by my husband!

And on top of that the absolute lies people like the Minister Datis goes around spreading, saying kids in Catalonia don't even have the choice to learn spanish at school. How is that guy even a Minister?

This country is rotten to the very core. And it has been in the past, which is the worst part. They say history repeats itself and so far not one point has failed.
 

Kaworu

Member
Podemos will get exactly what they deserve.

Trying to scratch away a few votes from the highly polarised Catalonian nationalist group while neglecting the rest of the country will bite them in the ass.

People voted them because they wanted change. Carrying water for Puigdemont while using the crisis to attack the PP instead of proposing a federal solution is such a stupid move. It's more of the same tribalistic, opportunistic politics so many voters rejected.

I completely disagree. They are the ones trying to solve this situation, the other option was falling for an opportunistic way to get votes in the rest of Spain while not being true to their own convictions regarding a plurinational state.
 
Podemos will get exactly what they deserve.

Trying to scratch away a few votes from the highly polarised Catalonian nationalist group while neglecting the rest of the country will bite them in the ass.

People voted them because they wanted change. Carrying water for Puigdemont while using the crisis to attack the PP instead of proposing a federal solution is such a stupid move. It's more of the same tribalistic, opportunistic politics so many voters rejected.

Totally agree with this. As a Podemos voter I have lost confidence in them as they do not represent some of my politcal ideas anymore, their strategy/position on this Catalonia independence crisis has disappointed me. I’m ok with pushing a legal referendum to end with this long-term crisis, but I’m not ok with infringing the law, and supporting the ones doing it.

I also don’t understand how a political party that wants to be in the government isn’t defending the constitution and to some exent, the integrity of the national territory.

In regards of these arrests, this was bound to happen, and I believe Trapero will be next, sime rumours say that will happen tomorrow, while Puigdemont, Turull, Forn and Forcadell might be arrested later when they go full UDI.

And last, but not least, I want to make clear Spain is not a fascist country, with fascist political ideas. Those claiming that don’t know what is to live under a fascist government. We are lucky to live in a free country, not under any kind of regime, with a great quality of life, however some folks want to make it looks like this is kind of Turkey or Saudi Arabia, smh.
 

Acidote

Member
I completely disagree. They are the ones trying to solve this situation, the other option was falling for an opportunistic way to get votes in the rest of Spain while not being true to their own convictions regarding a plurinational state.

Still, they're doing it the wrong way. You can not propose to give more rights to Galicia, Cataluña and Euskadi (just because they got to approve in time their "Estatutos de Autonomía" before the Civil War) than what all the other regions have and expect to keep your votes there. It's like they're trying really hard to win 3 votes there without realizing they're losing the other 14. They would have lost me there, but I was already gone due to other of their shenanigans like their stance with the LVG.
 
I completely disagree. They are the ones trying to solve this situation, the other option was falling for an opportunistic way to get votes in the rest of Spain while not being true to their own convictions regarding a plurinational state.

There's a massive diference between that and facilitating the fracture of the entire country.
 

Ferr986

Member
At this point, as someone living here in Catalonia, I just want to know how are both going to live together, not only in Spain but inside Catalonia itself.

I can understand both Jordis had reasons to being put in prison but acts like this just makes the split in Catalonia even worse and this could have been treated more carefully (with a fine or something).

We apply the 155, we make new elections, the independentists are kicked out of the govern... do you think that will solve the root of the problem? I'm starting to think not even a reform of the Constitution will calm down a lot of independentists..

And I know the first to fault are the Govern lying to independentists, but it feels like we are getting closer to a point of no return.

At the end it's easier for Spaniards outside of Catalonia, the law should be applied, but we have to think that every act just ups a notch the tension between citizens in Catalonia.
 

tzare

Member
At this point, as someone living here in Catalonia, I just want to know how are both going to live together, not only in Spain but inside Catalonia itself.

I can understand both Jordis had reasons to being put in prison but acts like this just makes the split in Catalonia even worse and this could have been treated more carefully (with a fine or something).

We apply the 155, we make new elections, the independentists are kicked out of the govern... do you think that will solve the root of the problem? I'm starting to think not even a reform of the Constitution will calm down a lot of independentists..

And I know the first to fault are the Govern lying to independentists, but it feels like we are getting closer to a point of no return.

At the end it's easier for Spaniards outside of Catalonia, the law should be applied, but we have to think that every act just ups a notch the tension between citizens in Catalonia.
Please, the 'Govern' is just one part of the 'procés'. They lie? Sure, they may lie, just like most politicians, don't tell the whole truth. Spanish politicians also said 'Apoyaré el estatut....' or they say we don't teach spanish in the schools, and that we indoctrinate, or that there's a problem with cataln -spanish , this has been their fuel for ages. So everybody lies and tells a gimped version of the truth.
We , the independentists, have hopes, some more rational than others, we know we go into uncharted territory, nothing is granted with independence. Some believe that everything will be great, most don't. Stop treating us as 'stupid' that follow our leaders blindly.

And yes, the conflict is in a very difficult situation right now, and if tension escalates, violence is not out of the question.
 

Ferr986

Member
Please, the 'Govern' is just one part of the 'procés'. They lie? Sure, they may lie, just like most politicians, don't tell the whole truth. Spanish politicians also said 'Apoyaré el estatut....' or they say we don't teach spanish in the schools, and that we indoctrinate, or that there's a problem with cataln -spanish , this has been their fuel for ages. So everybody lies and tells a gimped version of the truth.
We , the independentists, have hopes, some more rational than others, we know we go into uncharted territory, nothing is granted with independence. Some believe that everything will be great, most don't. Stop treating us as 'stupid' that follow our leaders blindly.

And yes, the conflict is in a very difficult situation right now, and if tension escalates, violence is not out of the question.

You're right, I apologize. I just hate how we've been told again and again things like " we wont leave the EU" or "no bussiness will leave" when it was so obvious it wasn't true.

But yeah I should have point out the lies outside of Catalonia too. As a Catalan myself I know things said like the education stuff are not true. And god knows how much I hate PP...

I'm honestly so tired of this situation and seems like the worse is yet to come. I feel like a lot of people outside Catalonia just don't care about how people inside is going to live together with such a fragmented society (that keeps getting fragmented every day with stuff like what happened yesterday).
 

Acidote

Member
I just want to point out the obvious:
There isn't just a single opinion outside of Cataluña either. There's fragmentation there too regarding this matter. And if you voice out yours, you better be prepared to be called a fascist or a "rojeras" in the same three way conversation.
 

tzare

Member
You're right, I apologize. I just hate how we've been told again and again things like " we wont leave the EU" or "no bussiness will leave" when it was so obvious it wasn't true.

But yeah I should have point out the lies outside of Catalonia too. As a Catalan myself I know things said like the education stuff are not true. And god knows how much I hate PP...

I'm honestly so tired of this situation and seems like the worse is yet to come. I feel like a lot of people outside Catalonia just don't care about how people inside is going to live together with such a fragmented society (that keeps getting fragmented every day with stuff like what happened yesterday).

Thanks, i also apologize for being rude, i am quite tense , especially after yesterday events. I always thought the clue was to reach an agreed referendum and just follow what the majority want. Some won't agree, , but most of catalans do, and that is what counts in my opinion.

I just want to point out the obvious:
There isn't just a single opinion outside of Cataluña either. There's fragmentation there too regarding this matter. And if you voice out yours, you better be prepared to be called a fascist or a "rojeras" in the same three way conversation.

the thing is, that the perception in catalonia, from all the spanish media which is majority from TV to newspapers (including some 'catalan' ones that are closer to spanish side like Vanguardia) is that most of Spain wants us in jail, and to anihilate independentism. The part of Spain that is for dialogue (i doubt it is majoritary, but still have hope) should be louder. Like the #hablemosparlem (or whatever was called) thing last week with white shirts. Where are they now?
 

Green Yoshi

Member
I'm honestly so tired of this situation and seems like the worse is yet to come. I feel like a lot of people outside Catalonia just don't care about how people inside is going to live together with such a fragmented society (that keeps getting fragmented every day with stuff like what happened yesterday).
I think people outside think it's just about money and nationalism. Catalonia was doing well compared to the rest of Spain, so why leave and risk everything? Were people from Catalonia discriminated against or suppressed? Can someone from Barcelona get a job and apartment in Madrid?
 
This is such a shitshow. I've heard some folks around here saying (with very limited understanding) that the Catalan situation is similar to what happened in Slovenia and Croatia. Except our referendums in 1991 at least had some degree of legality based on the 1974. Yugoslav constitution (kinda) and well over 90% of legal voters participated. Let alone the fact that a fucking war was already in the horizon.

I am guessing Puigdemont is looking for a similar situation to what happened after the Slovenian and Croatian DOI. Basically, the EU (then EEC) asked for a moratorium on the DOI for three months during which a third party looked into the legality and feasibility of a peaceful dissolution. But that's hardly going to happen here. I think the EU is really smart for staying out of this, even though I really disagree with not acknowledging the police brutality at least in some way.

I also don't really understand the logic of the Spanish side either.
 

correojon

Member
the thing is, that the perception in catalonia, from all the spanish media which is majority from TV to newspapers (including some 'catalan' ones that are closer to spanish side like Vanguardia) is that most of Spain wants us in jail, and to anihilate independentism. The part of Spain that is for dialogue (i doubt it is majoritary, but still have hope) should be louder. Like the #hablemosparlem (or whatever was called) thing last week with white shirts. Where are they now?
You can't ask people to dedicate their lives to a cause which is tangential to them, just like no one is asking you to drop everything else and help the people of Galicia with the aftermath of the fires for example. You should be grateful that people showed you their support in the first place and not think that you're the center of the world. You remind me of those Brexiters who think Brexit is at the front page of every newspaper in the world everyday.
 

tzare

Member
You can't ask people to dedicate their lives to a cause which is tangential to them, just like no one is asking you to drop everything else and help the people of Galicia with the aftermath of the fires for example. You should be grateful that people showed you their support in the first place and not think that you're the center of the world. You remind me of those Brexiters who think Brexit is at the front page of every newspaper in the world everyday.

oh, don't get me wrong, i expect nothing from others, but then don't talk bullshit about dialogue or what we are supposed to do, and that spains loves us and we are better toghether and things like that. If they do not care about us, it is fine, but then do not care at all.
I think it is an important thing for Spain as it is for catalonia, so by remaining silent, you let others do the talking for you. Be it from the spanish side allowing PP and C's talking for them, or the famous 'majoria/minoria silenciosa in Catalonia letting JPS doing the talk for them too.
It is also not necessary to drop everything else, but support via social media, or other ways, it may help
But again, i expect nothing really, unfortunately, but then , don't get mad i f we decide everything ourselves too. Because the only ones to talk now are the ones that don't want to.
 

correojon

Member
oh, don't get me wrong, i expect nothing from others, but then don't talk bullshit about dialogue or what we are supposed to do, and that spains loves us and we are better toghether and things like that. If they do not care about us, it is fine, but then do not care at all.
I think it is an important thing for Spain as it is for catalonia, so by remaining silent, you let others do the talking for you. Be it from the spanish side allowing PP and C's talking for them, or the famous 'majoria/minoria silenciosa in Catalonia letting JPS doing the talk for them too.
It is also not necessary to drop everything else, but support via social media, or other ways, it may help
But again, i expect nothing really, unfortunately, but then , don't get mad i f we decide everything ourselves too. Because the only ones to talk now are the ones that don't want to.
Sorry but you don't get to decide that. I don't want Cataluña to leave, I don't hate catalans and I think that the catalan and the spanish govs are doing an extremely poor job handling the issue, I think that the referendum was a farce, that it's results don't have any legitimacy and that the current Catalan gov doesn't have any right to proclaim independency. I also think that the police actions were disgusting, that this should have consequences, that the gov should have negotiated long time ago and that a legal referendum should be held.
I hate extremists, both from the Spanish and from the catalán side and I'm seeing a lot of new extremists everyday, people who deny the reality which is front of them because it doesn't align with the story they want to tell. Don't become one of them.
 

tzare

Member
Sorry but you don't get to decide that. I don't want Cataluña to leave, I don't hate catalans and I think that the catalan and the spanish govs are doing an extremely poor job handling the issue, I think that the referendum was a farce, that it's results don't have any legitimacy and that the current Catalan gov doesn't have any right to proclaim independency. I also think that the police actions were disgusting, that this should have consequences, that the gov should have negotiated long time ago and that a legal referendum should be held.
I hate extremists, both from the Spanish and from the catalán side and I'm seeing a lot of new extremists everyday, people who deny the reality which is front of them because it doesn't align with the story they want to tell. Don't become one of them.

I don't decide shit, unfortunately for my interests. I am aware of that.
And i agree 95% with the bolded. I don't think i am an extremist either, i want a legal referendum, but again, the ones that can allow it won't do anything, and the situation is going nuts, everytime we offer dialogue,in order to have that legal referendum, we receive a negative answer, followed by accusations, police in agressive behaviour or jail threats. We are a bit tired really, i think you can understand this, can't you? ANd this leads to frustration and , i hope not, actions that we may later regret
 

correojon

Member
I don't decide shit, unfortunately for my interests. I am aware of that.
And i agree 95% with the bolded. I don't think i am an extremist either, i want a legal referendum, but again, the ones that can allow it won't do anything, and the situation is going nuts, everytime we offer dialogue,in order to have that legal referendum, we receive a negative answer, followed by accusations, police in agressive behaviour or jail threats. We are a bit tired really, i think you can understand this, can't you? ANd this leads to frustration and , i hope not, actions that we may later regret
Yup I understand, I'm basque and had to live through ETA's most violent time, so you can imagine...that gives me some perspective that the situation is not as bad as it could be, but it still sucks, we're all trapped between some inept politicians who are only making everything worse. All my support for you, hope we arrive at some good solution somehow. I hope no one does anything we all have to regret later :(
 

tzare

Member
Yup I understand, I'm basque and had to live through ETA's most violent time, so you can imagine...that gives me some perspective that the situation is not as bad as it could be, but it still sucks, we're all trapped between some inept politicians who are only making everything worse. All my support for you, hope we arrive at some good solution somehow. I hope no one does anything we all have to regret later :(

Yes, i also had an ETA bomb in my town, not the same as being in Euskadi obviously, but those were difficult times. ANd from those times, i am 45 right now, i remember , as i said yesterday, that when ETA would drop the violence, Spain could talk about everything. Such a lie.

Btw
https://twitter.com/elisabet_ortega/status/920247195542216704

this is the respect that we get from 'unionists'. She is from PP , you can see her profile.
 

Acidote

Member
Yes, i also had an ETA bomb in my town, not the same as being in Euskadi obviously, but those were difficult times. ANd from those times, i am 45 right now, i remember , as i said yesterday, that when ETA would drop the violence, Spain could talk about everything. Such a lie.

Btw
https://twitter.com/elisabet_ortega/status/920247195542216704

this is the respect that we get from 'unionists'. She is from PP , you can see her profile.

Man, you're old.

;-)
 
Spain to trigger direct rule over Catalonia as deadline passes
Madrid will press ahead with suspending autonomy on Saturday after Catalan leader refuses to abandon independence push
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/18/spain-direct-rule-catalonia-deadline-direct-rule

Going to be interesting. Catalonia still hasn't made clear what they want and refuse to answer, so Madrid has no other choice it seems. Voting on Saturday about it, after the EU meeting in Brussels is over.
 

mid83

Member
What a mess this is. My family in Spain (none are Catalans) are all pretty nervous about what will eventually happen. Despite being an American, I love Spain as a second home and it saddens me to think of the potential chaos that is lurking there right now.
 

tzare

Member
Spain to trigger direct rule over Catalonia as deadline passes
Madrid will press ahead with suspending autonomy on Saturday after Catalan leader refuses to abandon independence push
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/18/spain-direct-rule-catalonia-deadline-direct-rule

Going to be interesting. Catalonia still hasn't made clear what they want and refuse to answer, so Madrid has no other choice it seems. Voting on Saturday about it, after the EU meeting in Brussels is over.

i don't think that is exactly what has happened: Puigdemont has said that he hasn't proclaimed independence and is willing to talk with Rajoy, but if he suspends autonomy via 155, he will.
 
i don't think that is exactly what has happened: Puigdemont has said that he hasn't proclaimed independence and is willing to talk with Rajoy, but if he suspends autonomy via 155, he will.
That is true. But the requirement was clear, back down or we continue with the 155 (and remember it was a binary choice if the answer wasn't we stop it would be understood as a they are going for it).
 
i don't think that is exactly what has happened: Puigdemont has said that he hasn't proclaimed independence and is willing to talk with Rajoy, but if he suspends autonomy via 155, he will.
Puigdemont has "suspended" independence for "dialogue". Spain has no clue what this means. Do they want dialogue over more autonomy, over how and when they declare independence? Catalonia has backed itself into a corner with holding a referendum and now unwilling to either commit to independence or let it go.
 

Majine

Banned
As an outsider, it seems to me that Puigdemont didn't know what he got himself into and is now between a rock and a hard place.
 

Acidote

Member
i don't think that is exactly what has happened: Puigdemont has said that he hasn't proclaimed independence and is willing to talk with Rajoy, but if he suspends autonomy via 155, he will.

The letter he sent as a response to the requirement was regarded everywhere as a whole lot of nothing, this was bound to happen unless a clear Yes or No was received by the central government before today. Right now everything is following the timetable.

Still, a letter with a whole lot of nothing was probably the best answer Puigdemont could give for his goals. Had he given a clear Yes he would've been fucked by the central government, has he given a clear No he would've been fucked by his associates.

As an outsider, it seems to me that Puigdemont didn't know what he got himself into and is now between a rock and a hard place.

I don't know if did knew, but he surely is between a rock and a hard place.
 

tzare

Member
The letter he sent as a response to the requirement was regarded everywhere as a whole lot of nothing, this was bound to happen unless a clear Yes or No was received by the central government before today. Right now everything is following the timetable.

Still, a letter with a whole lot of nothing was probably the best answer Puigdemont could give for his goals. Had he given a clear Yes he would've been fucked by the central government, has he given a clear No he would've been fucked by his associates.



I don't know if did knew, but he surely is between a rock and a hard place.

http://www.ara.cat/2017/10/19/2e47f...hash=ac2e23da7287f32f0610fad2d677777ad7ca82e9

the letter. judge for yourself.
 

tzare

Member
Totally unclear what he wants. What is this "dialogue" he keeps going on about? They did not declare independence, but they did suspend the effects of the referendum, which asked if Catalonia wanted independence. So... how can you suspend something you did not declare.

seems quite clear to me. In fact has been for a while. Talk with Rajoy. The effects derived from the referedum, that would be declaring independence, are 'halted'.

So far Spanish goverment doesn't want to talk shit, unless he stops the 'procés'. He won't. Unless they talk and maybe, reach an agreement.
 
seems quite clear to me. In fact has been for a while. Talk with Rajoy. The effects derived from the referedum, that would be declaring independence, are 'halted'.

So far Spanish goverment doesn't want to talk shit, unless he stops the 'procés'. He won't. Unless they talk and maybe, reach an agreement.
I ask again: what dialogue? What are the topics to be discussed here? Do you expect Spain to talk about how Catalonia can declare independence in the best way?

It would be different if he said: "We want dialogue about a solution to stay part of Spain under this and that circumstance." But now, nobody knows what he wants to talk about. At least nothing that is being reported in the international media I read.

second paragraph. Seems quite obvious to me.
Suspensions implies that he did declare independence though. Because that was the thing the referendum asked people about.
 

tzare

Member
I ask again: what dialogue? What are the topics to be discussed here? Do you expect Spain to talk about how Catalonia can declare independence in the best way?

It would be different if he said: "We want dialogue about a solution to stay part of Spain under this and that circumstance." But now, nobody knows what he wants to talk about. At least nothing that is being reported in the international media I read.

Well, if they don't sit and dialogue we'll never know what Puigdemont may offer. Or even Rajoy, if he has ever cared a bit about Catalonia.

So why don't put the 'pride' aside for a change, meet, talk, and if then nothing comes out from that, each one procced with their original plans, 155 and DUI?

Suspensions implies that he did declare independence though. Because that was the thing the referendum asked people about.
Puigdemont says ' supend the effects of the referendum. Those effects would mean declare independence. If you suspend that, unless i am very limited, which may be the case, means you suspend the act of declaring independence. I wasn't very good at language though.
My opinion if that we keep 'mareando la perdiz' and don't talk, this won't end well. And so far, the only one thaqt has proposed to talk without prior conditions, is Puigdemont.
 
Well, if they don't sit and dialogue we'll never know what Puigdemont may offer. Or even Rajoy, if he has ever cared a bit about Catalonia.

So why don't put the 'pride' aside for a change, meet, talk, and if then nothing comes out from that, each one procced with their original plans, 155 and DUI?
Then you expect them to sit down together with no clue what the discussion will be about?

Puigdemont wants a dialogue, but refuses to say about what. He has made no demands, he hasn't said anything about what his plans are, what he wants to happen after this "suspension of independence". So how can the Spanish government do anything with that request.
 

tzare

Member
Then you expect them to sit down together with no clue what the discussion will be about?

Puigdemont wants a dialogue, but refuses to say about what. He has made no demands, he hasn't said anything about what his plans are, what he wants to happen after this "suspension of independence". So how can the Spanish government do anything with that request.

Are you really telling me that you, or Rajoy don't know what he is going to talk about?
C'mon now....

And even if he wanted to talk about consolewars, Rajoy can give to the current president of catalonia 15 minutes of his life to try to solve a serious thing that is happing right now.
 

Acidote

Member
second paragraph. Seems quite obvious to me.

I read the letter beforehand but thanks anyways for the link!

That is not a clear answer and it is not obvious. And less from a legal standpoint. He was required to answer with a clear answer and that is not it (and as I said, I might've done the same if I was him because both a clear Yes and a clear No would be detrimental for me).

That says he declared it and then he suspended it. If is actually declared (even if they suspended it afterwards), then at one point it was declared and they're forced to act on it. If it wasn't actually declared, then there's some space to work there.
 
Are you really telling me that you, or Rajoy don't know what he is going to talk about?
C'mon now....
He says he wants independence. If that is what he wants to talk about, it is useless, since Spain doesn't accept that.

If he wants "dialogue" this should mean a talk where both parties give in a bit. That means independence would be off the table, but he refuses to say it is. He is giving no other option then independence at the moment, which rightfully is something Spain doesn't want to talk about, since they see that as an illegal act.

If he comes out and says "the referendum shows the Catalan people are unhappy with the current situation, so we want to talk about an improvement while staying part of Spain" there is room for discussion. Otherwise, it is going to be pretty much impossible.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
There is no dialogue possible when both sides are positioning for the extremes. Especially if one side breaks the laws. Unless you think it should be a hostage situation kind of negotiation. Even then there are usually some clear requests.
 

tzare

Member
I read the letter beforehand but thanks anyways for the link!

That is not a clear answer and it is not obvious. And less from a legal standpoint. He was required to answer with a clear answer and that is not it (and as I said, I might've done the same if I was him because both a clear Yes and a clear No would be detrimental for me).

That says he declared it and then he suspended it. If is actually declared (even if they suspended it afterwards), then at one point it was declared and they're forced to act on it. If it wasn't actually declared, then there's some space to work there.

as i said, the wording seems clear to me: suspend the effect , declaring the independence, of the referedum's result.

Anyway, every fucking day they do not sit together, Spain's economy also suffers, not only catalan one. If he just does not want to talk, go ahead and face the consequences of the 155.

He says he wants independence. If that is what he wants to talk about, it is useless, since Spain doesn't accept that.

Oh, then go ahead with 155.

My humble opinion is that Puigdemont wants a legal referendum, not independence. But again, What can we expect from Rajoy and Spain in general if we have not had a single proposal from them since all this started after the Estatut backlash.
 
Then you expect them to sit down together with no clue what the discussion will be about?

Puigdemont wants a dialogue, but refuses to say about what. He has made no demands, he hasn't said anything about what his plans are, what he wants to happen after this "suspension of independence". So how can the Spanish government do anything with that request.

Junqueras has said that there's nothing to discuss but the independence of Catalonia. Then Puigdemont talks about dialogue. The catalan goverment is clearly making everything as confussing as possible in order to drag Rajoy into the Villain territory.

They all know they will be fucked over as soon as they declsre the UDI, because they would get no support whatsoever from Europe, Germany has already threatened to remove every german industry (Bayern and Volkswagen among others) from Catalonia if they become independent and Rajoy knows he is the only one playing within the rules, so he will have the european support the independentist have failed to obtain.

As many people mentioned in later posts, Puigdemont is between a rock and a hard place.
 

tzare

Member
Junqueras has said that there's nothing to discuss but the independence of Catalonia. Then Puigdemont talks about dialogue. The catalan goverment is clearly making everything as confussing as possible in order to drag Rajoy into the Villain territory.

They all know they will be fucked over as soon as they declsre the UDI, because they would get no support whatsoever from Europe, Germany has already threatened to remove every german industry (Bayern and Volkswagen among others) from Catalonia if they become independent and Rajoy knows he is the only one playing within the rules, so he will have the european support the independentist have failed to obtained.

As many people mentioned in later posts, Puigdemont is between a rock and a hard place.

He is not alone. at least about 50% of the population seems to support that, including myself. So if won't be free to go ahead with 155. I can guarantee that. We may loose, but also will the rest of Spain and maybe also EU will face some consquences of inestablilty.
 

RSB

Banned
Totally unclear what he wants. What is this "dialogue" he keeps going on about? They did not declare independence, but they did suspend the effects of the referendum, which asked if Catalonia wanted independence. So... how can you suspend something you did not declare.
Puigdemont keeps repeating the whole "we want dialogue" act so he can keep playing victim when the evil, oprressive Spain brings Catalonia back into constitutional order with 155.
 
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