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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer

Good thing that he apologized. Replying to criticism (even if it was very poorly worded) with "lol ur gay" was very poor form.
No, he didn't. That's what I see very often when westerner try to translate japanese. They put it in a totally different context. Even in the update of the kotaku article you can read it was meant lighthearted and not like "haha you're gay".
 
Ugh, fuck.

I guess Kamitani was the bigger man but all it does is vindicate Schreier's misdirected crusade.
Pretty much this. But if you're on bad terms with the writers of popular video game websites, you won't get positive coverage. So I dunno what to say.

This is kind of like when games 'journalists' tried to force mindless praise of DmC as the 'correct, sane, normal' opinion. It's clear that the great majority of the gaming audience does not think that way, but that's not the narrative that video game sites wanted to publish. Only here it's not about sucking up to a big developer as much as a personal "no game should be silly, childish fun, because then games will never be taken seriously as an art-form!" vendetta.
It was mostly pointing and laughing. I understood, the American cover was awful compared to the original:
The 'pointing and laughing' was because the game is 'stupid embarrassing perverted anime bullshit', not because the girl on the US cover had a pretty generic Queen's Blade-like design. Lady Zozo was far less generic and people reacted the same way to her. A lack of originality clearly isn't the problem here, people who believe in some kind of 'nerd hierarchy' just want an excuse to go 'heh get a life you weeaboos' over silly anime things.
 
At the end of the day, Dragon's Crown isn't really a game that's going to be hurt by negative press. It's niche and the people that were going to buy it when it was announced at E3 2011 are still probably going to buy it this July/August. The additional attention that it receives for the Sorceress will only help to show it to people that may never pay attention to games that aren't published by the mega publishers.

But I will say that I don't think Jason could be more wrong about the art. He says that it's more damaging than positive, but I think the E3 unveiling shows that this isn't the case. The game received attention almost solely for its art. We instantly saw fanart popping up left and right, which doesn't seem to be too common. It had such a distinct artstyle that it pulled people in.
 

Gold_Loot

Member
Indeed! It's like all these guys arguing saying, "This is so offensive to women! It offends me! I'm embarrassed by it!"

And we're over here like, "Not really...it looks cool!"

I could go on by how much more offended by Samus' Zero Suit I am because it goes against her character, by that's unrelated nonsense and I'm not going to derail anything.

So in summary, if you are a Man, and large breasted characters offend and embarrass you, that's fine. However don't say that is offends everyone with a vagina.

Thank god for this post!
 
No, he didn't. That's what I see very often when westerner try to translate japanese. They put it in a totally different context. Even in the update of the kotaku article you can read it was meant lighthearted and not like "haha you're gay".

"lighthearted" doesn't say anything about meaning. I'll agree that he was lightheartedly calling Jason gay. But he was still calling him gay.

how are you actually interpreting the message?
 

AlucardGV

Banned
At the end of the day, Dragon's Crown isn't really a game that's going to be hurt by negative press. It's niche and the people that were going to buy it when it was announced at E3 2011 are still probably going to buy it this July/August. The additional attention that it receives for the Sorceress will only help to show it to people that may never pay attention to games that aren't published by the mega publishers.

sorceress in charge of marketing department
D6eYqjJ.jpg
 

abadguy

Banned
The Kotaku author updated today's article with an apology from Katamani.



Strange though, you have to go to the middle of the article to find the update. Why wouldn't the update be published at the top of the article?

Personally i don't think Schreier deserves an apology of any kind from Kamitami. He came off like a complete dick, calling him a 14 year old. The response was justified.

I'd have expected them to know the difference between primary and secondary sexual features.

Regardless, I'd love to play as a muscle-bound warrior with a big wobbly cock. Saints Row 3 was ahead of its time.

Only if a could use it offensively. Don't just have it hanging there for show.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Today's Penny Arcade

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-svhrTpg/0/950x10000/i-svhrTpg-950x10000.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

I'd have expected them to know the difference between primary and secondary sexual features.

Regardless, I'd love to play as a muscle-bound warrior with a big wobbly cock. Saints Row 3 was ahead of its time.
 

Gbraga

Member
I really don't get it. Not only they compare tits and penis as being the same, but also they use the "horny teenager" argument, that people are interested because they find the character hot. Well, if that's the case, I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me that a shirtless Ian Somerhalder would be a lot more appealing in that regard than an extremely muscular warrior with a giant cock bulging and bouncing.

If the reason people like the Sorceress is because they think she's hot, how the hell can you propose something that isn't hot to "make it even" and prove your point?

If you ask if people would like to play a shirtless Ian Somerhalder, I'm pretty sure most of the answers would be either "hell yes" or "I wouldn't mind".

Now I want a playable shirtless Ian Somerhalder, get to it game devs.
 
?

Apparently it's fine to assume Kamitani's response was a homophobic jibe, but that piercing insight is nowhere to be found when it comes to Schreier's own self appointment as the champion of "so many women" in the gaming industry.

I'm bitter because Kamitani should not have had to apologize to someone trolling for hits like Schreier. He is an actual artist. If you read this article, you'll see that Dragon's Crown's art pays homage to a wide variety of historical figures and artistic pieces. The designs are simply Kamitani's own tribute to the heritage of fantasy.

But Schreier cannot understand that, and instead just went ahead and called Kamitani a 14 year old. And you're calling him poignant?

First. Kamitani's response was to call him gay. That's distasteful. I'm not gonna sit here at let you twist and turn things to say otherwise when they are clearly not. Kamitani being a good artist doesn't let him get away with it, his apology was necessary.

Furthermore, Kamitani's artstyle choices and his character choices don't protect him from criticism, in fact they bring criticism. I read the article and Sorceress or Amazonian don't look like anything there so I am not sure why you are binging it up. Even if they were a 1:1 copy of art that still doesn't make them free from criticism - using racist slavery era art would be a good example.

Schreier called him a 14 year old which wasn't an acceptable piece of criticism it was lazy and stupid, but his point was clear and his later article expanded on it. Schreier never stated he was a "champion of so many women" he merely pointed out FACTS which is that many women in videogames are routinely harassed and degraded. He feels that whilst that goes on art like Kamitani's is negative.
 
Schreier called him a 14 year old which wasn't an acceptable piece of criticism it was lazy and stupid, but his point was clear and his later article expanded on it. Schreier never stated he was a "champion of so many women" he merely pointed out FACTS which is that many women in videogames are routinely harassed and degraded. He feels that whilst that goes on art like Kamitani's is negative.

It really wasn't made clear. What exactly does Jason want from artists like Kamitani and others that draw women in revealing outfits? He's said that he isn't in favor of censorship nor does he believe that a game like DC shouldn't exist. So if that's the case, and taking into account everything else that he said (like bringing up Meagan's article), what exactly does he want? What exactly do people that agree with him want?
 

SmokyDave

Member
It really wasn't made clear. What exactly does Jason want from artists like Kamitani and others that draw women in revealing outfits? He's said that he isn't in favor of censorship nor does he believe that a game like DC shouldn't exist. So if that's the case, and taking into account everything else that he said (like bringing up Meagan's article), what exactly does he want? What exactly do people that agree with him want?

You can ask this all day and you won't get an answer. I think they either want censorship and won't admit it, or they just want to show us all how 'enlightened' they are and don't really give a shit if it changes anything.
 

APF

Member
It really wasn't made clear. What exactly does Jason want from artists like Kamitani and others that draw women in revealing outfits? He's said that he isn't in favor of censorship nor does he believe that a game like DC shouldn't exist. So if that's the case, and taking into account everything else that he said (like bringing up Meagan's article), what exactly does he want? What exactly do people that agree with him want?

I won't speak for him but in terms of character design many people want artists to stop making eroticism the default depiction of females in gaming.
 
Schreier called him a 14 year old which wasn't an acceptable piece of criticism it was lazy and stupid, but his point was clear and his later article expanded on it. Schreier never stated he was a "champion of so many women" he merely pointed out FACTS which is that many women in videogames are routinely harassed and degraded. He feels that whilst that goes on art like Kamitani's is negative.

Schreier is misguided at best. The women in Dragon's Crown have agency in the game, they are both playable and competent fighters. If Schreier wants to white knight women in gaming then he should be focusing on their lack of representation in western games. Publishers publically refusing to support games with female leads, asking they be rewritten as men. Female soldiers not being included in shooters. Or at the very least, focus on games where female characters are denied agency and forced into traditional roles.
I love the women in Dragon's Crown because they are so strong, powerful and wildly beautiful. I want to see more capable women in games, but by calling the artist and by extension his fans, "immature", he's alienating people who would probably agree with what he was trying to say.

If you want to address sexualization it should be from the angle of equal representation. Men should be just as stripped/exagerated as their female counterparts. If you want to address how women are portrayed then Dragon's Crown is a step above something like Zelda, God of War or Call of Duty.
 
Today's Penny Arcade

i-svhrTpg-950x10000.jpg
Ignoring the stupidity of 'dick = boobs', the difference is that most people wouldn't play that huge-dicked warrior. It's not a popular type of male sexualization at all.

The huge boobs thing actually IS a popular fetish thing as far as drawn porn goes. Meanwhile people who look at anime porn centered on dudes generally don't look for THAT type of anatomical exaggeration (unless you're into sex acts that will literally tear apart the one on the receiving end, which... some people are into, but it's hardly super-common).
well, i suppose (and hope) PA is just irony.
Doubt it.
View Post
I would also like to say that Schreier come across as a tool trying to white knight what makes women uncomfortable without knowing what really makes women uncomfortable. And it's not just characters with large breasts. It usually is when you dilute the female role to just an accessory that has no purpose or personality or power. Almost all my female gamer friends are looking forward to the game as well, we're excited for it. Because Vanillaware makes beautiful and fun games.

I am a woman, and I love how the Sorceress looks, I love how the whole game looks. I love Kamitani's style across all their games. I loved how Kongiku looked in Muramasa. I love how Queen Muse looks in Grand Knight's History. I love Vanillaware's art.

Of course we are all just people too, and women all have different opinions. Some might not like it, but don't put words in all our mouth saying it's embarrassing to play. I'm looking forward to playing Dragon's Crown, ANYWHERE. Train, family events, in my own bathroom. I don't give a shit.
This reminds me of when people say "if guys were designed to be attractive to women, MEN WOULD BECOME UNCOMFORTABLE TOO!". Not worded in the form of a question, like "how would YOU react to this?" but a definitive *statement*. Like... wow, great! Please continue to inform me about how I'd react to a given situation.
 

APF

Member
I think the more apt comparison would be if male characters were eroticised to appeal to gay men by default, rather than appealing to general male power fantasies by default as they are now.
 
This reminds me of when people say "if guys were designed to be attractive to women, MEN WOULD BECOME UNCOMFORTABLE TOO!". Not worded in the form of a question, like "how would YOU react to this?" but a definitive *statement*. Like... wow, great! Please continue to inform me about how I'd react to a given situation.

I really agree with this. I think it's more empowering for women to decide what an attractive man is than to start covering up what men find attractive of women. Kratos for example is a man's idea of the alpha male, but it's not really what women think is hot. The new Dante on the other hand is not what men (typically) consider to be bad ass, but women (my wife at the very least) really enjoy looking at him.
 
Schreier is misguided at best. The women in Dragon's Crown have agency in the game, they are both playable and competent fighters. If Schreier wants to white knight women in gaming then he should be focusing on their lack of representation in western games. Publishers publically refusing to support games with female leads, asking they be rewritten as men. Female soldiers not being included in shooters. Or at the very least, focus on games where female characters are denied agency and forced into traditional roles.
I love the women in Dragon's Crown because they are so strong, powerful and wildly beautiful. I want to see more capable women in games, but by calling the artist and by extension his fans, "immature", he's alienating people who would probably agree with what he was trying to say.

If you want to address sexualization it should be from the angle of equal representation. Men should be just as stripped/exagerated as their female counterparts. If you want to address how women are portrayed then Dragon's Crown is a step above something like Zelda, God of War or Call of Duty.

If you think the fact they have agency means that they are not a negative image of women then that's fine that's your opinion. But I (and probably other people) will disagree with you.

I don't look at some of the female characters in this game or Soul Calibur V and see beautiful women, I see a disturbing perversion of the human form to suit teenage fantasies. I have no problem in saying that I dislike the character designs, and wish they were different. I think it's my right to call artists out who continue to use these sort of designs and complain, and whine and cry and throw a tantrum if I like. I wouldn't say I'm "educating" people or am somehow better than them - I have an opinion I feel rather strongly about and want to express that when given the chance.

I don't see why one can't complain about western games and eastern games - before this thing blew up I was thinking of writing a thread on the female character designs in Riot Games' League of Legends. Not sure if I still will - Schreier's article has brought up the same conversations anyway.
 
If you think the fact they have agency means that they are not a negative image of women then that's fine that's your opinion. But I (and probably other people) will disagree with you.

I don't look at some of the female characters in this game or Soul Calibur V and see beautiful women, I see a disturbing perversion of the human form to suit teenage fantasies. I have no problem in saying that I dislike the character designs, and wish they were different. I think it's my right to call artists out who continue to use these sort of designs and complain, and whine and cry and throw a tantrum if I like. I wouldn't say I'm "educating" people or am somehow better than them - I have an opinion I feel rather strongly about and want to express that when given the chance.

I don't see why one can't complain about western games and eastern games - before this thing blew up I was thinking of writing a thread on the female character designs in Riot Games' League of Legends. Not sure if I still will - Schreier's article has brought up the same conversations anyway.

Thats fine if thats your opinion, they make games with your sensibilities already. Most the Lord of the Rings games feature everyone in full clothing, very conservative, thats not my thing, but to each their own. I just don't feel a need to publically lambast your prudish tastes and lump it into the bad side of conservatism.

My point is if you're trying to improve the portrayel of women in gaming, you're making enemies of would be allies by attacking aesthetics instead of substance.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
I think the Gears of War bros are a bit of an unrealistic depiction of male body too...

I just think honestly straight out underage girls featured all over Japan in super sexual ways is a more urgent thing to give Japan a hard time about. I still can't believe the sort of vile crap you will see on the shelf of mom and pop book stores (underground level stuff is out in the open)
 

SmokyDave

Member
I think the more apt comparison would be if male characters were eroticised to appeal to gay men by default, rather than appealing to general male power fantasies by default as they are now.
Would we even know the difference?

Why aren't hot large-breasted women ever seen as 'female power fantasies'?

If these characters are male power fantasies, why the presumed aversion to depicting a big cock?

I'm not really asking you specifically, I'm just writing down the first things that pop into my head whenever the subject of 'male power fantasies' comes up. If I had a particular image that was a 'power fantasy', it'd be anything that made beautiful women want to sleep with me. The traditional 'male power fantasy' seems more homo-erotic than hetero-erotic* to me.


*I might have made this term up.
 
I think the Gears of War bros are a bit of an unrealistic depiction of male body too...
Yeah but those aren't designed for women.
I really agree with this. I think it's more empowering for women to decide what an attractive man is than to start covering up what men find attractive of women. Kratos for example is a man's idea of the alpha male, but it's not really what women think is hot. The new Dante on the other hand is not what men (typically) consider to be bad ass, but women (my wife at the very least) really enjoy looking at him.
The old Dante has way more fangirls as far as I'm aware, and guys like him more, too. But beyond that, yeah, I often get this idea from guys in the games industry & journalism that women are these otherworldly beings who only approve of sexualization if it is ONLY for the sake of character and story, and would never fangirl over a male character or enjoy fanservice. This is ironic because Tumblr, the most common source of their misguided pseudo-feminist views, is ironically also the perfect counter-argument against that misconception. You just need to read beyond the social justice blogs.

Japan is already designing lots of guys in their nerd media with women in mind (often not JUST women, but women too). The funny part is that Japan, as far as other things are concerned, actually has some serious issues with sexism, but they know how to appeal to everyone with their sexualization. Not because they're trying to be 'progressive' but because they're smart and know what sells.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Penny-Arcade has really slipped recently, a lot of the comics are just Tycho/Gabe rehashing common internet arguments in an exaggerated way. Punchlines are now a rarity.

I dunno if they're being serious or ironic. I hope it's the latter and this is just shoddy execution on their part. Will wait for blurb to see what's going on.
 
I don't think they're designed for anyone. They look like crap.
They're generic XXXTREME stuff that I guess the type of Xbox Live kids who scream into their headsets would like. There's a reason why Rob Liefeld was genuinely popular for a while, there's a market for this stuff.
 
I won't speak for him but in terms of character design many people want artists to stop making eroticism the default depiction of females in gaming.

That's fine, but that doesn't really describe DC. It has a wide variety of female characters, and they all look quite a bit different from one another. Some do look sexy, while others are very conservative. Just look at the Elf or Princess Vivian

untitledxhk0g.png


The art is quite clearly based of off classic interpretations of those character classes. An Amazon is typically a muscular woman that wears a bikini, a Sorceress is typically a busty woman. Then you have characters like the Elf and the Wizard, both of which look plain in comparison to the Fighter, Amazon, Dwarf etc.

This article actually does a fantastic job of show just how deep the art inspirations for this game go

http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/

Everything from Disney to Frank Frazetta.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
The people levying criticism against Sorceress' designs consistently fail to take into account the context of the entire game, and instead look at her design in a vacuum. Sorceress (and the Frazetta homage) are simply two facets of a broader artistic vision.

But no, let's complain about Sorceress when there are so many other more egregious examples of sexism and objectification in gaming.
 
Would we even know the difference?

Why aren't hot large-breasted women ever seen as 'female power fantasies'?

If these characters are male power fantasies, why the presumed aversion to depicting a big cock?

I'm not really asking you specifically, I'm just writing down the first things that pop into my head whenever the subject of 'male power fantasies' comes up. If I had a particular image that was a 'power fantasy', it'd be anything that made beautiful women want to sleep with me. The traditional 'male power fantasy' seems more homo-erotic than hetero-erotic* to me.


*I might have made this term up.

Female power fantasies exist. Read some japanese Shoujo manga and you'll often see their own beautiful girl tropes.

I think japanese homosexual material is often marketed at women too, so if you want to research the character designs there, be my guest. I know they have something called a an Uke and a Seme - one character of which is thin wispy male and the other a bit stronger who usually rapes the other one (or something of that sort). Learnt this stuff second hand though.
 
That's fine, but that doesn't really describe DC. It has a wide variety of female characters, and they all look quite a bit different from one another. Some do look sexy, while others are very conservative. Just look at the Elf or Princess Vivian

untitledxhk0g.png


The art is quite clearly based of off classic interpretations of those character classes. An Amazon is typically a muscular woman that wears a bikini, a Sorceress is typically a busty woman. Then you have characters like the Elf and the Wizard, both of which look plain in comparison to the Fighter, Amazon, Dwarf etc.

This article actually does a fantastic job of show just how deep the art inspirations for this game go

http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/

Everything from Disney to Frank Frazetta.
http://art-eater.com/2010/07/test-1-darkstalkers/ Another good article.

I wish games got more of this brand of analysis and less of the Jason Schreier brand.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Oh, I didn't realize that guy also did the Darkstalkers article.
 

APF

Member
Would we even know the difference?
Probably. I'm not an expert but there's a difference between eg Cho Aniki and Gears of War.

Why aren't hot large-breasted women ever seen as 'female power fantasies'?
"Why aren't they," or "why can't they be"? I'm sure they can be, it depends on the person and what resonates with them. But it's not necessarily the sort of depiction you see in popular media targeting women in particular, vs media that targets men in particular.

An Amazon is typically a muscular woman that wears a bikini, a Sorceress is typically a busty woman.
Why is a sorceress "typically" a busty woman? First, that's not what I immediately think when I think of sorceresses. Second, if that is a common trope maybe there's a reason for it? Amazons make sense, they at least have some historical context and therefore a perception based in some sort of reality as being fighting women in an apparently warm climate. Sorceresses less so, but note that "wanton" women were often burned as witches in puritanical societies.
 
Why is a sorceress "typically" a busty woman? First, that's not what I immediately think when I think of sorceresses. Second, if that is a common trope maybe there's a reason for it? Amazons make sense, they at least have some historical context and therefore a perception based in some sort of reality as being fighting women in an apparently warm climate. Sorceresses less so, but note that "wanton" women were often burned as witches in puritanical societies.

Witches are usually ugly per stereotype
Sorceresses are typically atractive altrough usually in more subtle ways ;)
 
Why is a sorceress "typically" a busty woman? First, that's not what I immediately think when I think of sorceresses. Second, if that is a common trope maybe there's a reason for it? Amazons make sense, they at least have some historical context and therefore a perception based in some sort of reality as being fighting women in an apparently warm climate. Sorceresses less so, but note that "wanton" women were often burned as witches in puritanical societies.

More of a general trope that a sorceress may be well-endowed.
There is a really good comment on the Kotaku article, however, that goes much deeper, into the fact that Necromancy and fertility go hand in hand in much folklore, mythology, and world history, and that other Kamitani-directed games have thusly featured busty ladies with power over the dead.
 

LiK

Member
I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.
 
I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.

I think they did. Joystiq's review had this quote, but I'm sure they werent alone.

As wonderful as the design is, it should be mentioned that Skullgirls' buxom cast and gratuitous amounts of anime-esque fanservice do nothing to help the fighting game community's quest to establish itself as a gender neutral, equal opportunity organization.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I don't think anyone complained about Skullgirls even tho it has super sexy female characters. I dunno why the Sorc was singled out for this game.

Easy target because Vanillaware is a niche developer without the leverage to fight back.

It's disgusting.
 
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