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The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 03:33 PM)
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Mahershala Ali is the first Muslim to get an Oscar. What even is the Ahmadiyya?
GetDigitized
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(02-27-2017, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Artisan

Mahershala Ali is the first Muslim to get an Oscar. What even is the Ahmadiyya?

A group which considers themselves Muslims, but believe there is a prophet after Muhammud (PBUH) & have other distinct beliefs which go against what most Muslims believe. This causes them to be rejected by most Muslim sects(even the more liberal ones) who consider them Non-Muslims as one of the core teachings of Islam is that Muhammud(Pbuh) is the last prophet. This is as simple as I can put it. It's a touchy subject.
The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 04:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

A group which considers themselves Muslims, but believe there is a prophet after Muhammud (PBUH) & have other distinct beliefs which go against what most Muslims believe. This causes them to be rejected by most Muslim sects(even the more liberal ones) who consider them Non-Muslims as one of the core teachings of Islam is that Muhammud(Pbuh) is the last prophet. This is as simple as I can put it. It's a touchy subject.

oh, damn. I guess then he should not be considered the first Muslim oscar winner?
GetDigitized
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(02-27-2017, 05:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Artisan

oh, damn. I guess then he should not be considered the first Muslim oscar winner?

It depends on your viewpoint, I don't consider them Muslims due to the large differences in their doctrines. So I wouldn't consider him the first Muslim oscar winner.
The media refers to them as Muslims since they refer to themselves as Muslims.
If anything they have good PR in the west.
Ashes
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(02-27-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Artisan

Mahershala Ali is the first Muslim to get an Oscar. What even is the Ahmadiyya?

He's not the first Muslim regardless. A.R. Rahman has won a couple of Oscars.
The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

It depends on your viewpoint, I don't consider them Muslims due to the large differences in their doctrines. So I wouldn't consider him the first Muslim oscar winner.
The media refers to them as Muslims since they refer to themselves as Muslims.
If anything they have good PR in the west.

i don't really know what to think. i get a similar dilemma when i think about black muslims and 5%ers.

Originally Posted by Ashes

He's not the first Muslim regardless. A.R. Rahman has won a couple of Oscars.

oh fuck I forgot about him. although with best original song i think there was a little bit of controversy because that one of the rules about the award is that it has to be a song wrote originally for the movie, but jai ho was written for a different one then handed to slumdog
Sch1sm
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(02-27-2017, 07:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

A group which considers themselves Muslims, but believe there is a prophet after Muhammud (PBUH) & have other distinct beliefs which go against what most Muslims believe. This causes them to be rejected by most Muslim sects(even the more liberal ones) who consider them Non-Muslims as one of the core teachings of Islam is that Muhammud(Pbuh) is the last prophet. This is as simple as I can put it. It's a touchy subject.

I don't think the bit about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) not being considered the last prophet to them warrants anything like this, considering Shia Muslims? But the way you represent it, that seems the largest thing/the main point. What teachings exactly are so contrary to Sunni teachings? Curious. Doesn't have to be heavily detailed or anything.
Kisaya
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(02-27-2017, 09:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes

He's not the first Muslim regardless. A.R. Rahman has won a couple of Oscars.

First Muslim actor then.

And lmao at you guys "I don't consider him a Muslim." If he identifies as one then that's what it is, regardless of how he practices.
GetDigitized
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(02-27-2017, 09:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sch1sm

I don't think the bit about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) not being considered the last prophet to them warrants anything like this, considering Shia Muslims? But the way you represent it, that seems the largest thing/the main point. What teachings exactly are so contrary to Sunni teachings? Curious. Doesn't have to be heavily detailed or anything.



The Shahada literally states that you believe Muhammud(pbuh) is the last messenger and it's noted numerous times in the Quran afaik, it's a huge thing. He even apparently stated he was better than prophet pbuh and is held as such by his followers. He also apparently slandered the past prophets.
I'm not aware of Shia's believing anything like this?
They view Mirza - their prophet after Muhammud (pbuh) as the messiah i.e. not Isa(Jesus), they believe he is the one who fulfills the role of the second coming of Jesus.
There's also huge contradictions between their beliefs and core islam (what both Sunni and Shia's believe).

There's huge amounts of discussion on them
https://islamqa.info/en/4060
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/4098

I haven't heard or read most of the things discussed in those two links before but they have sources,are reputable websites/Imams and various website correlate with them.
Also apparently the Wikipedia page is heavily monitored&edited, but also backs alot of it up . I don't like researching the teachings of non-muslims so I haven't done huge amounts of research on the topic, but it is clear to me that their prophet & teachings aren't inline with Islam. I'm not here to bash the Ahmedi's , I believe they should be allowed to practice just like Christians,Jews,Hindus etc should be allowed to practice. This whole post is my opinion based on passive knowledge of them.

This is all second hand info, but I haven't found anything to dispute otherwise.
I don't think I have enough information to strongly argue either way since I believe the persecution they face is overboard.

Originally Posted by The Artisan

i don't really know what to think. i get a similar dilemma when i think about black muslims and 5%ers.

I don't know much about them, I've heard of the Nation of Islam if that's what you're thinking about but I don't know much about them other than they also hold extreme and non-core islam beliefs, but not on the same level as the ahmedi's.

Originally Posted by The Artisan

black muslim i think is what the media referred to as members of the nation of islam. 5%ers are a derivative of that where every man is a god, i think

allah=arm leg leg arm head

That's weird and stuff like humanizing Allah/God(which according to one of the links I posted some or all Ahmedi's do as well) just doesn't make sense to me.
The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 09:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

I don't know much about them, I've heard of the Nation of Islam if that's what you're thinking about but I don't know much about them other than they also hold extreme and non-core islam beliefs, but not on the same level as the ahmedi's.

black muslim i think is what the media referred to as members of the nation of islam. 5%ers are a derivative of that where every man is a god, i think

allah=arm leg leg arm head
The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 10:05 PM)
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i thought the shahada was to declare that there is no god but God and Muhammad is (God's) messenger...

the shahada does not specifically state that Muhamamd is the last prophet although i do believe he was. in terms of the shahada saying that though like the guy above said, doesn't the shia sect believe Ali was a prophet too post Muhammad's time? How could they make sense out of that then?
Sch1sm
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(02-27-2017, 10:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

The Shahada literally states that you believe Muhammud(pbuh) is the last messenger and it's noted numerous times in the Quran afaik, it's a huge thing. He even apparently stated he was better than prophet pbuh and is held as such by his followers. He also apparently slandered the past prophets.
I'm not aware of Shia's believing anything like this?
They view Mirza - their prophet after Muhammud (pbuh) as the messiah i.e. not Isa(Jesus), they believe he is the one who fulfills the role of the second coming of Jesus.
There's also huge contradictions between their beliefs and core islam (what both Sunni and Shia's believe).

There's huge amounts of discussion on them
https://islamqa.info/en/4060
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/4098

I haven't heard or read most of the things discussed in those two links before but they have sources,are reputable websites/Imams and various website correlate with them.
Also apparently the Wikipedia page is heavily monitored&edited, but also backs alot of it up . I don't like researching the teachings of non-muslims so I haven't done huge amounts of research on the topic, but it is clear to me that their prophet & teachings aren't inline with Islam. I'm not here to bash the Ahmedi's , I believe they should be allowed to practice just like Christians,Jews,Hindus etc should be allowed to practice. This whole post is my opinion based on passive knowledge of them.

This is all second hand info, but I haven't found anything to dispute otherwise.
I don't think I have enough information to strongly argue either way since I believe the persecution they face is overboard.

I know what the Shahada says. :P

Shia's believe that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) named Ali as his successor at Ghadir Khumm, from what I'm aware of. I could be incorrect in that they see him as the equivalent to a Prophet, though, but that's where the split between Sunnis and Shias starts. I assumed from there, but it could be something else entirely. Maybe someone else here has better expertise on it. That's what I was referring to, anyway.

What you're saying's entirely different, though. I can see why Ahmadiyya's aren't really accepted, judging by that. I'll have a look through those links, thanks. I'll look into it some more myself when I've got free time.
GetDigitized
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(02-27-2017, 11:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sch1sm

I know what the Shahada says. :P

Shia's believe that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) named Ali as his successor at Ghadir Khumm, from what I'm aware of. I could be incorrect in that they see him as the equivalent to a Prophet, though, but that's where the split between Sunnis and Shias starts. I assumed from there, but it could be something else entirely. Maybe someone else here has better expertise on it. That's what I was referring to, anyway.

What you're saying's entirely different, though. I can see why Ahmadiyya's aren't really accepted, judging by that. I'll have a look through those links, thanks. I'll look into it some more myself when I've got free time.

I didn't mean to say you didn't know what the shahada means, it was more to show how important & a core belief of Islam it is.
Ah I see, AFAIK(and from confirming after googling) Shias believe the caliphate - the religious leaders & imams should have been succeeded by Ali and from there the differences and rulings grew. Shias don't believe they were prophets. Although I don't know how high of esteem they hold them in either.
I get why you thought so from my original post, I was trying to be as factual and simple as possible which is why I didn't include the stuff from my second post since it would have looked like me pushing the anti-ahmedi agenda which I don't have strong feelings for either way.

Also some the stuff in the links I posted should be approached cautiously since some of the rulings they have made are biased towards one school of thought or a little harsh.
The Artisan
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(02-27-2017, 11:08 PM)
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Either way I think he at least identifies as a Muslim.

Well, I’m allergic to dogs and not to cats. It’s also a Muslim thing. We can’t have dogs in the house.

http://www.gq.com/story/mahershala-ali-interview
GetDigitized
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(02-27-2017, 11:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Artisan

Either way I think he at least identifies as a Muslim.http://www.gq.com/story/mahershala-ali-interview

Yeah ahmedi's identify as Muslims which is why there's a huge amount of persecution against them.
Maleficence
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(02-28-2017, 12:00 AM)
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I used to be an Ahmadi before leaving Islam.

To clarify the Ahmadi position on the finality of the prophet.

They believe that the arabic word for final and chief/greatest are the same and interchangable and in the Quran the same word was used actually more to mean chief/greatest as opposed to mean final, so when used as final prophet, it actually meant to say the chief of the prophets or the greatest of the prophets.

As muslims believe in the second coming of christ, obviously coming after Muhammad, it is logical to conclude that Muhammad could not be in fact the final prophet, but it still make sense for him to be the chief or the greatest.

I mean it's all nonsense to me but it always seemed like fairly sound reasoning from a theological standpoint.
The Artisan
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(02-28-2017, 12:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

Yeah ahmedi's identify as Muslims which is why there's a huge amount of persecution against them.

Well they certainly shouldn't be persecuted for it. That's just barbaric.

Originally Posted by Maleficence

I used to be an Ahmadi before leaving Islam.

To clarify the Ahmadi position on the finality of the prophet.

They believe that the arabic word for final and chief/greatest are the same and interchangable and in the Quran the same word was used actually more to mean chief/greatest as opposed to mean final, so when used as final prophet, it actually meant to say the chief of the prophets or the greatest of the prophets.

As muslims believe in the second coming of christ, obviously coming after Muhammad, it is logical to conclude that Muhammad could not be in fact the final prophet, but it still make sense for him to be the chief or the greatest.

I mean it's all nonsense to me but it always seemed like fairly sound reasoning from a theological standpoint.

so Ahmadis believe Christ is the prophet to come after Muhammad?
Se7enSword
Banned
(02-28-2017, 12:59 AM)
Khātim an-Nabīyīn = Last/Seal of the Prophets

Isa (AS)'s return does not change that in anyway. He is an old prophet that would return, not a new one.
crazy monkey
holds a masters in liberal arts
(02-28-2017, 01:18 AM)
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No one is allowed to judge except Allah. I hate when people judged me or said someone is going to hell or heaven because of what they think. No one knows except Allah and that is how it should be. Be humble.

Originally Posted by GetDigitized

Yeah ahmedi's identify as Muslims which is why there's a huge amount of persecution against them.

no one has right to do that. Correct them disagree with them but not that.
GetDigitized
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(02-28-2017, 02:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Maleficence

I used to be an Ahmadi before leaving Islam.

To clarify the Ahmadi position on the finality of the prophet.

They believe that the arabic word for final and chief/greatest are the same and interchangable and in the Quran the same word was used actually more to mean chief/greatest as opposed to mean final, so when used as final prophet, it actually meant to say the chief of the prophets or the greatest of the prophets.

As muslims believe in the second coming of christ, obviously coming after Muhammad, it is logical to conclude that Muhammad could not be in fact the final prophet, but it still make sense for him to be the chief or the greatest.

I mean it's all nonsense to me but it always seemed like fairly sound reasoning from a theological standpoint.

The second coming of Isa(Jesus) is the same prophet which came before so it's him returning, he's not a new prophet. Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
Isa isn't considered to have passed away by mainstream Islam so again he isn't another prophet, he's the same prophet returning.

Also, that is only supposed to happen during the end of times, using that to justify another prophet after muhammud is a huge theological leap isn't it?

The creator of Ahmediyya claimed to be the Mahdi who is the only other ruler of Islam who is suppsoed to appear at the end of times, but isn't referenced in the Quran, but in the Hadith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
There's an Ahmadiyya section which explains the differences.

Also, one of the links i posted earlier claims the creator of ahmediyya claimed he is better than Muhammud(pbuh) and also criticised Isa, again I'd never heard of this before today but that's simply because of my lack of interest in the subject.

I'd also like to note, I'm genuinely asking these questions not trying to be hostile, I don't debate Islam in real life or online and I've never met a Ahmedi or an Ex-Ahmedi. I also understand you don't believe in the doctrine anymore so if you don't have the answers thats fine.

Originally Posted by crazy monkey

no one has right to do that. Correct them disagree with them but not that.

I agree, I haven't met anybody who has done or believes these things so there's not really much I can do

Originally Posted by Maleficence

I used to be an Ahmadi before leaving Islam.

To clarify the Ahmadi position on the finality of the prophet.

They believe that the arabic word for final and chief/greatest are the same and interchangable and in the Quran the same word was used actually more to mean chief/greatest as opposed to mean final, so when used as final prophet, it actually meant to say the chief of the prophets or the greatest of the prophets.

As muslims believe in the second coming of christ, obviously coming after Muhammad, it is logical to conclude that Muhammad could not be in fact the final prophet, but it still make sense for him to be the chief or the greatest.

I mean it's all nonsense to me but it always seemed like fairly sound reasoning from a theological standpoint.

The second coming of Isa(Jesus) is the same prophet which came before so it's him returning, he's not a new prophet. Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
Isa isn't considered to have passed away by mainstream Islam so again he isn't another prophet, he's the same prophet returning.

Also, that is only supposed to happen during the end of times, using that to justify another prophet after muhammud is a huge theological leap isn't it?

The creator of Ahmediyya claimed to be the Mahdi who is the only other ruler of Islam who is suppsoed to appear at the end of times, but isn't referenced in the Quran, but in the Hadith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
There's an Ahmadiyya section which explains the differences.

Also, one of the links i posted earlier claims the creator of ahmediyya claimed he is better than Muhammud(pbuh) and also criticised Isa, again I'd never heard of this before today but that's simply because of my lack of interest in the subject.

I'd also like to note, I'm genuinely asking these questions not trying to be hostile, I don't debate Islam in real life or online and I've never met a Ahmedi or an Ex-Ahmedi. I also understand you don't believe in the doctrine anymore so if you don't have the answers thats fine.

Originally Posted by crazy monkey

no one has right to do that. Correct them disagree with them but not that.

If you're refering to the persection I agree, I haven't met anybody who has done or believes these things so there's not really much I can do


Originally Posted by Kisaya

First Muslim actor then.

And lmao at you guys "I don't consider him a Muslim." If he identifies as one then that's what it is, regardless of how he practices.

I totally missed your post before.
The issue isn't about identifying as a Muslim. The issue is if they are actually practicing Islam, when they fail at the shahada, the first step, I can't really see why they should be viewed the same as mainstream Muslims. I mean they have huge differences similar to how Christians and Jews have differences to Islam. That isn't to say they aren't Islamic, they also have a lot in common with us, but the use of Muslim, at least my use of it is someone who follows the core tenants of Islam not a version of it, sunni's, shia's and many other sects have this in common while the ahmediyya do not.
Whether their prayers are accepted or not isn't up to us to decide, that's only Allah can do, similarly we can't say they aren't followers of Islam since that it is a huge sin in itself. My point was " i don't consider" them the same as what we refer to as Muslims since they have huge inherent differences. They don't consider us the same as them either, which is why they apparently have bans on them marrying us. Which again seperates them from normal Muslims. We need to draw the line somewhere, simply considering yourself Muslim isn't enough you need the actions to assert this. Otherwise we have groups such as ISIS also claim to be following Islam but violate so many core principles of Islam that they can't be considered the same as the majority of Muslims. Which is where the debate for if they should be referred to as the Islamic state comes from. Simply claiming to be something isn't enough, as Ashes said.


Again, I haven't done huge research into the issue, but this is my knowledge on the matter.Additionally , when the scholars we look to for rulings and the country of Saudia Arabia don't consider them Muslims I don't see how I can make a more informed decision than them.

Again, I don't have an issue with them praying alongside us or calling themselves Muslim. They are free to do so just as others have said.
Ashes
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(02-28-2017, 08:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

First Muslim actor then.

And lmao at you guys "I don't consider him a Muslim." If he identifies as one then that's what it is, regardless of how he practices.

What's so funny?

I'm sure he's a better Muslim than I am all things considered; heck, some Christians are better Muslims than I am.

But if a neogaffer called herself a Muslim prophet, I'm not sure, her followers, fit into Islam. Sure she'd make it to Wikipedia, but as much as I understand the religion, her followers'd not be considered Muslim.
Valdfellgar
Banned
(02-28-2017, 04:05 PM)
Hi everyone. I'm a fledgling screenwriter/novelist and I'm looking to write a very time sensitive book that seeks to heavily address America's ever growing xenophobia. One aspect of this is the Muslim Community. It's an aspect I'd like to portray accurately and correctly. Trouble is I know very little about the Muslim Community.

So I'm looking for someone up to be interviewed (we can do it through PMs on Neogaf even) to try and help me to broaden my understanding of your culture and portray members of it as realistically and fairly as possible. I'd really like it if the characters I create feel as honest and real and sympathetic as possible.

If no one is interested that's fine, I know my request is asking a lot. Thanks for your time either way =)
GetDigitized
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(02-28-2017, 05:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Valdfellgar

Hi everyone. I'm a fledgling screenwriter/novelist and I'm looking to write a very time sensitive book that seeks to heavily address America's ever growing xenophobia. One aspect of this is the Muslim Community. It's an aspect I'd like to portray accurately and correctly. Trouble is I know very little about the Muslim Community.

So I'm looking for someone up to be interviewed (we can do it through PMs on Neogaf even) to try and help me to broaden my understanding of your culture and portray members of it as realistically and fairly as possible. I'd really like it if the characters I create feel as honest and real and sympathetic as possible.

If no one is interested that's fine, I know my request is asking a lot. Thanks for your time either way =)

Whilst this is great, I'd say take it a step further and visit a local mosque, so an Imam can tell you about these things and you can witness things such as the congregational prayer - obviously book an appointment or let them know you're coming in advance if you do decide to go. Maybe go for the Friday Prayer - Juma which is the most popular congregational prayer outside the special ones such as Eid. You won't get more realistic then that.
Also one thing to note, there's varying levels of interactivity with the Muslim community by Muslims (atleast in the UK) , some don't visit the mosque outside the Friday prayer & other obligatory prayers, some don't go to the Friday prayer at all whilst others go to the mosque to pray 5 times a day. There's also different sects of Islam which pray differently, the most popular is Sunni islam which has sects within itself.
I knwo you're looking for more personal insight, but I thought these things would be of interest to you if you're looking for your adaptation to be relatable.
Valdfellgar
Banned
(02-28-2017, 05:34 PM)

Originally Posted by GetDigitized

Whilst this is great, I'd say take it a step further and visit a local mosque, so an Imam can tell you about these things and you can witness things such as the congregational prayer - obviously book an appointment or let them know you're coming in advance if you do decide to go. Maybe go for the Friday Prayer - Juma which is the most popular congregational prayer outside the special ones such as Eid. You won't get more realistic then that.
Also one thing to note, there's varying levels of interactivity with the Muslim community by Muslims (atleast in the UK) , some don't visit the mosque outside the Friday prayer & other obligatory prayers, some don't go to the Friday prayer at all whilst others go to the mosque to pray 5 times a day. There's also different sects of Islam which pray differently, the most popular is Sunni islam which has sects within itself.
I knwo you're looking for more personal insight, but I thought these things would be of interest to you if you're looking for your adaptation to be relatable.

These are definitely good points. I'll have to see where the closest Mosque is near me, but yeah, thanks for the information. I have an idea of what I'd need to ask on about.
Kisaya
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(02-28-2017, 09:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by GetDigitized

I totally missed your post before.
The issue isn't about identifying as a Muslim. The issue is if they are actually practicing Islam, when they fail at the shahada, the first step, I can't really see why they should be viewed the same as mainstream Muslims. I mean they have huge differences similar to how Christians and Jews have differences to Islam. That isn't to say they aren't Islamic, they also have a lot in common with us, but the use of Muslim, at least my use of it is someone who follows the core tenants of Islam not a version of it, sunni's, shia's and many other sects have this in common while the ahmediyya do not.
Whether their prayers are accepted or not isn't up to us to decide, that's only Allah can do, similarly we can't say they aren't followers of Islam since that it is a huge sin in itself. My point was " i don't consider" them the same as what we refer to as Muslims since they have huge inherent differences. They don't consider us the same as them either, which is why they apparently have bans on them marrying us. Which again seperates them from normal Muslims. We need to draw the line somewhere, simply considering yourself Muslim isn't enough you need the actions to assert this. Otherwise we have groups such as ISIS also claim to be following Islam but violate so many core principles of Islam that they can't be considered the same as the majority of Muslims. Which is where the debate for if they should be referred to as the Islamic state comes from. Simply claiming to be something isn't enough, as Ashes said.


Again, I haven't done huge research into the issue, but this is my knowledge on the matter.Additionally , when the scholars we look to for rulings and the country of Saudia Arabia don't consider them Muslims I don't see how I can make a more informed decision than them.

Again, I don't have an issue with them praying alongside us or calling themselves Muslim. They are free to do so just as others have said.

Originally Posted by Ashes

What's so funny?

I'm sure he's a better Muslim than I am all things considered; heck, some Christians are better Muslims than I am.

But if a neogaffer called herself a Muslim prophet, I'm not sure, her followers, fit into Islam. Sure she'd make it to Wikipedia, but as much as I understand the religion, her followers'd not be considered Muslim.

Y'all are just very ostracizing. Who the fuck cares, what's the debate? We get great news of a very deserving and talented actor who identifies as Muslim, and you all jump in like "he's not one of us." Get over it. He's not hurting anyone with his beliefs, let alone his group is the one that is heavily persecuted by people who identify with what you consider as a "correct" follower of Islam.
Ashes
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(02-28-2017, 10:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

Y'all are just very ostracizing. Who the fuck cares, what's the debate? We get great news of a very deserving and talented actor who identifies as Muslim, and you all jump in like "he's not one of us." Get over it. He's not hurting anyone with his beliefs, let alone his group is the one that is heavily persecuted by people who identify with what you consider as a "correct" follower of Islam.

Seems like you're the one projecting being butt hurt about Muslim Identity to be honest.

There is a an interesting debate to be had about what makes a Muslim Muslim. Denying that there is a debate to be had is intellectually dishonest.

The whole ostracization accusation is absurd. We've had Ahmaddiya Muslims in this thread. And I'm not your typical Muslim either. And people put up with me.

Plus the guy you are talking about is an Oscar winner. Who here is seriously going to say no if he wants to break fast with us?

At the end of the day, it is for Allah to judge. But why would I shy away from debate about it?
Ashes
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(02-28-2017, 10:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Valdfellgar

Hi everyone. I'm a fledgling screenwriter/novelist and I'm looking to write a very time sensitive book that seeks to heavily address America's ever growing xenophobia. One aspect of this is the Muslim Community. It's an aspect I'd like to portray accurately and correctly. Trouble is I know very little about the Muslim Community.

So I'm looking for someone up to be interviewed (we can do it through PMs on Neogaf even) to try and help me to broaden my understanding of your culture and portray members of it as realistically and fairly as possible. I'd really like it if the characters I create feel as honest and real and sympathetic as possible.

If no one is interested that's fine, I know my request is asking a lot. Thanks for your time either way =)

Sure thing. PM me and we'll get the ball rolling. As you can see we agree to disagree a lot. You should be prepared to have a wide variety of healthy opinions here.
GetDigitized
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(02-28-2017, 11:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

Y'all are just very ostracizing. Who the fuck cares, what's the debate? We get great news of a very deserving and talented actor who identifies as Muslim, and you all jump in like "he's not one of us." Get over it. He's not hurting anyone with his beliefs, let alone his group is the one that is heavily persecuted by people who identify with what you consider as a "correct" follower of Islam.

That's not what happened, The Artisian asked who the ahmedi's were , them not being considered mainstream Islam is something that should be pointed out to remain unbiased since it's a big issue for them, not including it is just as bad as pushing opinions, which I didn't do in my first post and made it clear in my second post it was my knowledge on the subject. Nobody was bashing the actor or being hostile. Again I was very open on not being informed about the subject and saying this is my understanding of the issue. Ashes put it better, but you're the one making the discussion hostile, nobody's even hinted at being hostile towards them. The whole point of the debate is to understand different view points, if we wanted to exclude someone or a group the discussion would have had a very different tone from the beginning.
Kisaya
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(03-01-2017, 06:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes

Seems like you're the one projecting being butt hurt about Muslim Identity to be honest.

Explain to me how I'm projecting lol.

Originally Posted by Ashes

There is a an interesting debate to be had about what makes a Muslim Muslim. Denying that there is a debate to be had is intellectually dishonest.

It's not an interesting debate though, it's literally people questioning the legitimacy of a non harmful religious sect.

Originally Posted by Ashes

The whole ostracization accusation is absurd. We've had Ahmaddiya Muslims in this thread. And I'm not your typical Muslim either. And people put up with me.

There were posters literally saying "I don't consider them Muslim" and "I get a similar dilemma when i think about black muslims" lmao the fuck? How does that make this thread a welcoming space for those groups?

Originally Posted by Ashes

Plus the guy you are talking about is an Oscar winner. Who here is seriously going to say no if he wants to break fast with us?

And if he was a regular dude would you still not deny him?

Originally Posted by Ashes

At the end of the day, it is for Allah to judge. But why would I shy away from debate about it?

I agree, it is for Allah to judge. So why are posters in here doing it?
Sch1sm
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(03-01-2017, 06:33 AM)
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Honestly, prior to this, I didn't even know what an Ahmadiyya was and that people considered them any less Muslim than the more popular sects.

I was just happy to see the guy win an Oscar, honestly. It's always nice to have some representation there.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 07:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

It's not an interesting debate though, it's literally people questioning the legitimacy of a religious sect.

It is that. Hence why I can understand people finding it interesting.

This goes to the core of Muhammad being the seal of the prophets. I'm not sure why you brush it aside like the fundamental tenets of the religion don't mean a damn thing to you.

Ahmaddiya have a stronger case for being classified non-muslim than boko haram (who I personally think disqualify as a legitimate school of thought). They literally invented a brand new prophet.
crazy monkey
holds a masters in liberal arts
(03-01-2017, 02:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes

It is that. Hence why I can understand people finding it interesting.

This goes to the core of Muhammad being the seal of the prophets. I'm not sure why you brush it aside like the fundamental tenets of the religion don't mean a damn thing to you.

Ahmaddiya have a stronger case for being classified non-muslim than boko haram (who I personally think disqualify as a legitimate school of thought). They literally invented a brand new prophet.

10 Fabrications Muslim Leaders Need to Stop Making About Ahmadi Muslims

how much of this is true?
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(03-01-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by crazy monkey

10 Fabrications Muslim Leaders Need to Stop Making About Ahmadi Muslims

how much of this is true?

None of those points are related to schism except this:

Fabrication 6: Ahmadi Muslims don’t accept Muhammad(sa) as the Seal of the Prophets

As I mentioned earlier, Ahmadi Muslims proudly celebrate Prophet Muhammad as “KhatamunNabiyyin” or the “Seal of the Prophets.” Rather than delve into a lengthy discourse, I’ll make just two points.

First, every year at the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community’s international Jalsa Salana in UK, His Holiness the Khalifa of Islam, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, accepts bai’at, i.e. initiation, from every member of the community. It is an annual pledge. Part of this pledge declares in no uncertain terms, “I solemnly pledge that I believe Muhammad is God’s Prophet and the Seal of the Prophets.” Thus, every adult Ahmadi Muslim has recited this pledge dozens of times, and every person who joins the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community affirms this pledge in writing with his or her signature.

Second, if you still do not believe me, here is an excellent book written by two Ahmadi Muslim scholars titled, “With Love to Muhammad, the KhatamunNabiyyin.” You can buy the print book or download it absolutely free at the link provided as an e-book. If, after reading the book, you still do not believe me that Ahmadi Muslims consider Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets, drop me a line and we’ll chat.

Bottom Line: Ahmadi Muslims proudly declare Prophet Muhammad is Khatamun Nabiyyin.

I think this needs more clarification. Who is Mirza Ghulam then?
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 06:17 PM)
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That there is the point in question.
Kisaya
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(03-01-2017, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes

It is that. Hence why I can understand people finding it interesting.

This goes to the core of Muhammad being the seal of the prophets. I'm not sure why you brush it aside like the fundamental tenets of the religion don't mean a damn thing to you.

Ahmaddiya have a stronger case for being classified non-muslim than boko haram (who I personally think disqualify as a legitimate school of thought). They literally invented a brand new prophet.

Yikes at comparison with an extremist group. Nice debate.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 08:11 PM)
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If you're not interested in debate, you are free to not discuss it.

I couldn't do that myself. I'd consider it lazy thinking and a failure to engage with the topic.
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(03-01-2017, 08:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

Yikes at comparison with an extremist group. Nice debate.

He's not equating Ahmadiyya to BokoHaram's political actions and their physical violence and terrorism. But rather their aqeedah. So Boko Haram are Sunni Muslims, but are the scum of the earth and need to be purged from existencd. However Ahmadiyya are peaceful and lot of times great human beings and promote peace and harmony, but are not necessarily Muslims.

AFAIK, I dont know much about Ahmadiyyas to comment which way. If they profess faith in Allah and agree that Muhammad SAW is the last and final messenger, then they are Muslims. But each Ahmadiya person gives a different answer in my experience.
TheRealTalker
Banned
(03-01-2017, 08:51 PM)
In the deen debate is highly encouraged. Allah says in the Quran to always question, discuss and ponder.

Debates are fine.... useless arguments that lead to nowhere are not

If you look at top Scholars from the past you would realize all of them were top tier debaters and were people who asked high tier questions. Sometimes that is a form of evolving one's Imam since Allah already provided the answer you are just seeking and expanding knowledge.

Usually this over protectionism leads to individuals making false claims/conclusions about certain things and/or forms of ignorance or arrogance that leads to hostility.

Disagreeing with someone with solid evidence as to why you would disagree with them is fine.

It isn't like you are getting aggressive with them but if the debate gets to heated we just say salaam and move on.
------------



On the issue Ahmadiyya though it is quite simple, tossing every Muslim under one umbrella isn't accurate and is a over generalization/simplification.


It is like saying their isn't any difference between a Sunni or a Shia or a Sufi or any other sect... on another hand some people also stated that unlike the sects I just listed that are bounded under the same Shahada that the Messenger (SAW) is the final and last messenger that maybe Ahmadiyyas have something else.


I have a limited knowledge on that matter and like what Rusty Nails stated via my experience as well sometimes I get different answers to that statement.

If I created a new sect right here and right now and gained followers from it, would it be common to say "oh he is following the same thing that so and so is following"?

That isn't accurate and honestly isn't true.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 09:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by RustyNails

He's not equating Ahmadiyya to BokoHaram's political actions and their physical violence and terrorism. But rather their aqeedah. So Boko Haram are Sunni Muslims, but are the scum of the earth and need to be purged from existencd. However Ahmadiyya are peaceful and lot of times great human beings and promote peace and harmony, but are not necessarily Muslims.

AFAIK, I dont know much about Ahmadiyyas to comment which way. If they profess faith in Allah and agree that Muhammad SAW is the last and final messenger, then they are Muslims. But each Ahmadiya person gives a different answer in my experience.

I'm pretty sure she understands this and is just taking petty shots at me. And maybe I deserve it too. But I would like to know what we can discuss if we can't talk about what makes a Muslim Muslim.
Kisaya
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(03-01-2017, 09:20 PM)
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To be clear I'm not against talking about what makes a Sunni different from a Shia or different from an Ahmadi or what not. It's important to have us all educated of our diverse community. The problem I had were users explicitly stating that Ahmadis are not considered Muslim and having unwelcoming dialogue. That's not debate to me, that's just being excludatory.

Originally Posted by Ashes

I'm pretty sure she understands this and is just taking petty shots at me. And maybe I deserve it too. But I would like to know what we can discuss if we can't talk about what makes a Muslim Muslim.

I'm not being petty towards you, I don't even know you and barely have ever had conversations with you. I was simply calling you out on your shit.
TheRealTalker
Banned
(03-01-2017, 09:24 PM)
Also you don't even need to go that far in the Quran to clamp down on another Prophet after Prophet Muhammad (SAW)


With Shias, Sufis, Sunnis, they all agree on this as a undeniable conclusion.

(Of course there is even more ayats and Hadith and so on and so fourth but literally this is Page 2 of the Quran after Surah Fatiha)

I mean you can go ahead and claim new Prophets but your opinion on the matter would not be in line with traditional sects and instead would be debating with Baihais, etc... that also agree that the Prophet (SAW) was a prophet but not the last.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 09:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

The problem I had were users explicitly stating that Ahmadis are not considered Muslim.

That is the debate though. That is the dominant position. That is overwhelmingly the consensus amongst Muslims. It's not my shit as you put it. So I don't know what you think you are calling me out on.

Anyway, I think I am done with you. There's nothing I am learning from our exchange.
TheRealTalker
Banned
(03-01-2017, 09:46 PM)
Allah also says in the Quran that

...This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. [Quran 5:3]

And Allah doesn't change... He is eternal... no beginning no end.

Everything goes his way and he doesn't negotiate with anyone about decisions...

Allah isn't going to go

"ooops guess I am just going to bring out another Prophet with out any warning and make everyone follow him and cause confusion for you know reasons"
He doesn't make last minute decisions...


You just need to see the story of Adam in the Quran were Allah tells us that humanity was going to go to Earth anyway before he even created Adam... and when Adam did a sin Allah said he slipped , wasn't even a big problem and Allah knew it was going to happen but because we have free will he is testing us to learn from our mistakes.




Allah tells us to follow his commands and he already completed those commands.

There isn't anything in Quran or Hadith that says there will be another Prophet or another book or anything like that. There wasn't any reason for it either.

The Mehdi isn't even a Prophet and you can't just level up from Mehdi to Prophet to Messiah or something like if you are picking up some spring fashion outfits.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 09:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheRealTalker

Allah also says in the Quran that


And Allah doesn't change... He is eternal... no beginning no end.

Everything goes his way and he doesn't negotiate with anyone about decisions...

Allah isn't going to go

"ooops guess I am just going to bring out another Prophet with out any warning and make everyone follow him and cause confusion for you know reasons"
He doesn't make last minute decisions...


You just need to see the story of Adam in the Quran were Allah tells us that humanity was going to go to Earth anyway before he even created Adam... and when Adam did a sin Allah said he slipped , wasn't even a big problem and Allah knew it was going to happen but because we have free will he is testing us to learn from our mistakes.




Allah tells us to follow his commands and he already completed those commands.

There isn't anything in Quran or Hadith that says there will be another Prophet or another book or anything like that. There wasn't any reason for it either.

The Mehdi isn't even a Prophet and you can't just level up from Mehdi to Prophet to Messiah or something like if you are picking up some spring fashion outfits.

It'd have been useful to hear maninthemirror's viewpoint, but he's banned isn't he?
Kisaya
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(03-01-2017, 10:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ashes

That is the debate though. That is the dominant position. That is overwhelmingly the consensus amongst Muslims. It's not my shit as you put it. So I don't know what you think you are calling me out on.

Anyway, I think I am done with you. There's nothing I am learning from our exchange.

If being more inclusive and using language that is more welcoming is of no knowledge to you then sure, feel free to ignore me.

Also, just because it's general consensus doesn't mean that it's right for the community. There are a lot of problems that are accepted amongst Muslims that have caused lots of issues for our brothers and sisters, especially in this generation. If we want to live in what has become increasingly inclusive world, we should not exclude people with discouraging dialogue.
TheRealTalker
Banned
(03-01-2017, 10:07 PM)

Originally Posted by Ashes

It'd have been useful to hear maninthemirror's viewpoint, but he's banned isn't he?

yeah I believe he is :(
----
From my limited knowledge on them though is that even if you allow your mind to accept the possibility that he is a messenger then there is a whole can of worms of other contradictions you'd have to discredit and toss away.
Which to me isn't really acceptable since religion or faith or understanding of truth (which I hope most people who have submitted to their ideologies, be it Atheism or any form of religion) is tearing up bits and pieces of that said thought and putting it through a microscope.

We are not blind followers... Allah told us not to be,
If you were then some dude can blabber anything they want and you would just believe it.

On another note we shouldn't do any aggression or pride over something because that is dangerous too.

Shaytaan's sin was his arrogance/pride... and if you'd think about it he could've asked Allah for forgiveness and accept he was wrong and be forgiven but he maintained his arrogance and thus it is basically only his fault to blame.
Ashes
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(03-01-2017, 10:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kisaya

Also, just because it's general consensus doesn't mean that it's right for the community. There are a lot of problems that are accepted amongst Muslims that have caused lots of issues for our brothers and sisters, especially in this generation. If we want to live in what has become increasingly inclusive world, we should not exclude people with discouraging dialogue.

These two points I would agree with. What you're talking about is pragmatics, and what we're talking about is identity and legitimacy.

One has to be free to challenge ideas. I'm not for persecuting Ahmadiya politically or ethically - we share a whole lot of good stuff. Live and let live. Heck, I'd be persecuted for my beliefs too if I were in certain middle eastern countries.

But one has to be honest about where our intellect takes us. If an Ahmadiyan was talking about a Muslim issue, and they said their leader was told this directly by god, then I'm sorry, but it lacks credibility, for me as a Muslim.
TheRealTalker
Banned
(03-01-2017, 11:28 PM)
I mean the religion isn't really that hard.
  • your in this world as a test
  • maintain order... follow set rules
  • die

No secret, stuff no ultra confusing added needs, no added intercessors, no hierarchy, or cursed race or something...

Just you and Allah...

Same message over and over and over again via different Prophets.... and you can spread said message to others but their acceptance of said message is up to them and not you.


You just need to look at the Prophets to know that even they couldn't save certain people...

From their own child, to a said Parent, to a Wife, to a Uncle..

That of course doesn't mean you give up but their acceptance is on them and Allah, hence why Allah says you can't say who is who

That is a job for Allah himself... you can disagree with them though and you can refute their claims with sound knowledge.

----------------

If someone claims something new; we say "bring said evidence if you are truthful". If then said evidence is drivel then we say "Salaam" and move on.
Kralamoonard
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(03-05-2017, 02:00 AM)
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Asalamo alaykum all! :D

I hope everyone is doing well and in good health. It's been a while since I posted here, but I've been super busy over the past few months (I haven't even finished my first year, but med school is quite intense especially now that we've started Sem 2)!

In the meanwhile, it's certainly been a fantastic experience in university, and joining my uni's ISoc has been one of the best things that's happened to me spiritually, academically and personally, in regards to the amazing amount of brothers I've met, advice I've gained and imaan booster's I've been given. I've even had opportunities to go to talks from popular speakers (I even finally got to see a Nouman Ali Khan lecture in real life in East London Mosque after watching him on a screen for so long!).

Anyhow, I hope everyone is keeping well. I just thought I'd leave a very powerful lecture that I came across, that for myself first and foremost, how easy it is to lose iman in this day and age and how to overcome it, because sometimes, myself included, we just need that extra iman booster!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNC3y9rJI9c
RustyNails
with arms wide open / under the sunlight / welcome to this place / i'll show you everythaaaang
(03-07-2017, 03:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kralamoonard

Asalamo alaykum all.

I hope pray everyone is doing well and in good health. It's been a while since I posted here, but I've been super busy over the past few months (I haven't even finished my first year, but med school is quite intense especially now that we've started Sem 2)!

In the meanwhile, it's certainly been a fantastic experience in university, and joining my uni's ISoc has been one of the best things that's happened to me spiritually, academically and personally, in regards to the amazing amount of brothers I've met, advice I've gained and imaan booster's I've been given. I've even had opportunities to go to talks from popular speakers (I even finally got to see a Nouman Ali Khan lecture in real life in East London Mosque after watching him on a screen for so long!).

Anyhow, I hope everyone is keeping well. I just thought I'd leave a very powerful lecture that I came across, that for myself first and foremost, how easy it is to lose iman in this day and age and how to overcome it, because no ones perfect of course, and sometimes we just need that extra iman booster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNC3y9rJI9c

Glad to hear you're doing well! Thanks for posting the video, it's absolutely a good reminder.

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